Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Kit Plummer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Like the sheep we are! No, the goats. And I'm the troll under the bridge. And you, Kit, were rather gruff. Ba-da-bum! Thanks, I'll be here all week... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Like the sheep we are! On Dec 10, 2008, at 11:50 AM, Richard Hightower wrote: Ic... I fell into your trap. At least I took Kit with me On 12/10/08 10:26 AM, "Chad Woolley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Richard Hightower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Just not such a big fan of the Java is dead stuff. Yes, but that part was essential to my goal of getting an interesting thread going on this mailing list ;) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Ic... I fell into your trap. At least I took Kit with me On 12/10/08 10:26 AM, "Chad Woolley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Richard Hightower > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Just not such a big fan of the Java is dead stuff. > > Yes, but that part was essential to my goal of getting an interesting > thread going on this mailing list ;) > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Richard Hightower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just not such a big fan of the Java is dead stuff. Yes, but that part was essential to my goal of getting an interesting thread going on this mailing list ;) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
I don't disagree that non-Java is not off topic. I'd don't mind seeing stuff about Ruby. Just not such a big fan of the Java is dead stuff. On 12/10/08 9:36 AM, "Chad Woolley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Richard Hightower > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Ha. I am no troll. This is a Java list after all. I am quite un-trollish in >> saying that Java is not dead on a Java list and using evidence to support my >> assertion of the un-deadness of Java. > > Even though the list and group is still a "JUG", there have been (at > least a couple I remember) of in-person meetings where people have > (unofficially?) agreed that non-Java stuff was fair game. > > Plus, JRuby, as a Sun-developed dynamic language for the Java Virtual > Machine, is very on topic for a Java group. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Yes. Chad. That is very cool. Jython does the same for Python libs. It is pretty cool. On 12/10/08 9:37 AM, "Chad Woolley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:45 PM, Richard Hightower > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> JRuby is cool. If I were going to use Ruby, it would most likely be Jruby. > > You've [still] conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to > take advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems [as opposed to > Groovy]. > > -- Chad > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Kit Plummer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It has been my overwhelming experience that software > engineers are very bad (for whatever reasons) at recognizing the hammer they > are holding isn't the right one. I'd rather have a Golden Hammer than a Golden Salami... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
I wrote everything with a smile... I am very happy. And I am glad you are happy. Emotions don't come through emails very well. On 12/10/08 6:01 AM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wow. It is very hard for me to realize that you don't get the "Java > is dead" joke. > > I'm not quite sure what your intent here is - maybe you feel the need > to protect your Java turf. > > Listen man, you obviously think you have some deserved box here. > That's cool with me. > > It is interesting that all I said (in defense of Ruby, not a > protagonist position) was that I believed Ruby devers were (in > general) happier than Java devers. Thanks for proving my point. > > Kit > > On Dec 9, 2008, at 11:22 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: > >> >> Ha. I am no troll. This is a Java list after all. I am quite un- >> trollish in >> saying that Java is not dead on a Java list and using evidence to >> support my >> assertion of the un-deadness of Java. >> >> Your evidence... "Ruby makes me happy and only cool people use >> Ruby". Wow... >> Convincing. Sign me up, I really want to be cool and happy. >> >> Or do you not know the definition of a troll. Let me sum it up for >> you. If >> on a java mailing list, you say that Java is dead, then you are troll. >> >> Let me repeat since you are so cool >> >> Saying that Java is dead on a Java list is the very definition of >> troll. Get >> it. Look in the mirror. See that... Troll. >> >> Comments below >> >> On 12/9/08 8:02 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Ha. Sucka. >>> >>> I'm no Ruby zealot. You have sadly, and quite immaturely, >>> mistaken a >>> few assertions for a stance. >> >> I don't think so. You made the assertion that Java was dead. Thus my >> diatribe, which was on point. >> >>> I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when >>> it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care >>> what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are >>> cool. >> >> I am really cool. If you don't think so, just ask my mom. >> >>> The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care >>> who wins or loses. I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or >>> even >>> a debate. >> >> No I don't. I am not the one declaring Ruby is dead. Kettle, pot >> black. >> >>> >>> Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense >>> to the "Java is dead" stick as well as your feeble attempt to start >>> dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix. >> >> I never dissed you as I never said anything personal about you (at >> least not >> anything bad with the exception of the troll comment but that was >> more a >> clarification so as to identify what a troll is, i.e., you not me). >> Seems I >> only talked about Ruby and you are the one who came back with personal >> attacks. >> >> I never put "you" in my assertions as feeble at they were. :) >> >> "I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be >> paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I >> do not >> like Ruby." >> >> Notice the distinction. I am for you, but I don't like Ruby. I guess >> I am >> not cool and hip. Oh well. I prefer well paid and well fed. Oh and I >> hate >> Ruby as much as most Java developer hate VB. >> >>> >>> Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame. Oh, only if ever thing were a >>> webapp. >> >> I mostly work on webapps. Don't most Ruby developer's mostly work on >> webapps? Are there a lot of Ruby desktop apps? What kind of apps are >> you >> developing with Ruby? I mean I realize it is a general purpose >> language, but >> isn't most of its growth tied to developing webapps? It is not like >> I went >> completely off topic. Is it? >> >>> But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most >>> ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time. >> >> Almost as ridiculous as saying "Java is Dead" when in 4 short months >> it grew >> by more than the entire Ruby market. >> >>> Though, giving in a >>> second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature. So, >>> I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of >>> technology. >> >> Got it. Ruby is cool and Java is a freak of nature. At least, only I >> say >> ridiculous things. Seems to be that I don't have a monopoly on >> ridiculous at >> least not on this list. >> >>> >>> Please don't "bite" again...spare us your drivelish-trolling. Though >>> I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of >>> themselves. >> >> Yes. It is not like I am on a Ruby mailing list screaming how much I >> love >> Java. Because that would be complete "drivelish-trolling". >> >> It is not like I am on a Java list declaring that Java is dead. It >> is not >> like I am such a troll for saying on a Java list that Java is not in >> fact >> dead. >> >> JRuby is cool. It should bring some stability to all the coolness and >> happiness in the Ruby community. >> >> I prefer Groovy to JRuby. I will admit
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Pretty cool Todd. We were also very "inspired" by Sean's presentation. It lead us to convincing the Air Force to fund a fully OSS project based on Ramaze. (We ultimately chucked Ramaze in favor of Rails, after chucking Jetty, et al.) It bothers me when these kinds of discussions become overwhelmed with domain-specific thoughts. Obviously, the notion of "the best tool" should always apply. It has been my overwhelming experience that software engineers are very bad (for whatever reasons) at recognizing the hammer they are holding isn't the right one. Worse, most software engineers want to hunker down and invest poorly in any given technology - usually the one that maps best to their incumbent knowledge. Java, the platform, is expansive and covers so, so many bases. The expansion of language options to the JVM is hugely important to its continued success. All of this beyond webapps - which unfortunately dominate Java knowledge. I'd love to see somebody do the work to explain why there is little middleware that isn't C++ or Java. Given the same benefits Sean rationalizes carry over to other domains like RT, servers, or middleware why we aren't seeing similar innovations (grails, rails, etc.) in other non-webapp domains. Thoughts? Kit On Dec 10, 2008, at 10:22 AM, Todd Ellermann wrote: PHP developers are "Cool" and "happy" too but I am not accusing them of having made a good engineering decision. Attempting to divert the ruby/groovy/java war to pick on the kid in the corner who is not here to defend himself. If you really want to explore some of the differences in these languages you may enjoy the screencasts we did as part of my Masters Thesis. We wrote the same two web applications in 8 different programming languages. http://www.betterwebapp.com << my personal non-comercial website with no agenda. There were MS guys, python guys, perl guys et al... on the project. would love some feedback. The conclusion... depends on your business drivers. Cool little ajax tool to test out. -Todd *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:45 PM, Richard Hightower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > JRuby is cool. If I were going to use Ruby, it would most likely be Jruby. You've [still] conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to take advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems [as opposed to Groovy]. -- Chad - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Richard Hightower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ha. I am no troll. This is a Java list after all. I am quite un-trollish in > saying that Java is not dead on a Java list and using evidence to support my > assertion of the un-deadness of Java. Even though the list and group is still a "JUG", there have been (at least a couple I remember) of in-person meetings where people have (unofficially?) agreed that non-Java stuff was fair game. Plus, JRuby, as a Sun-developed dynamic language for the Java Virtual Machine, is very on topic for a Java group. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
PHP developers are "Cool" and "happy" too but I am not accusing them of having made a good engineering decision. Attempting to divert the ruby/groovy/java war to pick on the kid in the corner who is not here to defend himself. If you really want to explore some of the differences in these languages you may enjoy the screencasts we did as part of my Masters Thesis. We wrote the same two web applications in 8 different programming languages. http://www.betterwebapp.com << my personal non-comercial website with no agenda. There were MS guys, python guys, perl guys et al... on the project. would love some feedback. The conclusion... depends on your business drivers. Cool little ajax tool to test out. -Todd *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Wow. It is very hard for me to realize that you don't get the "Java is dead" joke. I'm not quite sure what your intent here is - maybe you feel the need to protect your Java turf. Listen man, you obviously think you have some deserved box here. That's cool with me. It is interesting that all I said (in defense of Ruby, not a protagonist position) was that I believed Ruby devers were (in general) happier than Java devers. Thanks for proving my point. Kit On Dec 9, 2008, at 11:22 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: Ha. I am no troll. This is a Java list after all. I am quite un- trollish in saying that Java is not dead on a Java list and using evidence to support my assertion of the un-deadness of Java. Your evidence... "Ruby makes me happy and only cool people use Ruby". Wow... Convincing. Sign me up, I really want to be cool and happy. Or do you not know the definition of a troll. Let me sum it up for you. If on a java mailing list, you say that Java is dead, then you are troll. Let me repeat since you are so cool Saying that Java is dead on a Java list is the very definition of troll. Get it. Look in the mirror. See that... Troll. Comments below On 12/9/08 8:02 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ha. Sucka. I'm no Ruby zealot. You have sadly, and quite immaturely, mistaken a few assertions for a stance. I don't think so. You made the assertion that Java was dead. Thus my diatribe, which was on point. I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are cool. I am really cool. If you don't think so, just ask my mom. The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care who wins or loses. I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or even a debate. No I don't. I am not the one declaring Ruby is dead. Kettle, pot black. Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense to the "Java is dead" stick as well as your feeble attempt to start dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix. I never dissed you as I never said anything personal about you (at least not anything bad with the exception of the troll comment but that was more a clarification so as to identify what a troll is, i.e., you not me). Seems I only talked about Ruby and you are the one who came back with personal attacks. I never put "you" in my assertions as feeble at they were. :) "I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not like Ruby." Notice the distinction. I am for you, but I don't like Ruby. I guess I am not cool and hip. Oh well. I prefer well paid and well fed. Oh and I hate Ruby as much as most Java developer hate VB. Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame. Oh, only if ever thing were a webapp. I mostly work on webapps. Don't most Ruby developer's mostly work on webapps? Are there a lot of Ruby desktop apps? What kind of apps are you developing with Ruby? I mean I realize it is a general purpose language, but isn't most of its growth tied to developing webapps? It is not like I went completely off topic. Is it? But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time. Almost as ridiculous as saying "Java is Dead" when in 4 short months it grew by more than the entire Ruby market. Though, giving in a second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature. So, I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of technology. Got it. Ruby is cool and Java is a freak of nature. At least, only I say ridiculous things. Seems to be that I don't have a monopoly on ridiculous at least not on this list. Please don't "bite" again...spare us your drivelish-trolling. Though I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of themselves. Yes. It is not like I am on a Ruby mailing list screaming how much I love Java. Because that would be complete "drivelish-trolling". It is not like I am on a Java list declaring that Java is dead. It is not like I am such a troll for saying on a Java list that Java is not in fact dead. JRuby is cool. It should bring some stability to all the coolness and happiness in the Ruby community. I prefer Groovy to JRuby. I will admit this is a personal preference mostly do to my hatred of Ruby. I also prefer Jython to Jruby mostly because I do not like the Ruby syntax because I thought it was weak compare to Python when I was as excited to Python as you now seem to be about Ruby. Python has also seen some strong growth more so than Ruby not that is it a contest or anything. Basically as long as I can make any money doing anything else Ruby will remain off my list. On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: Kit, I am damn happy. I do
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
JRuby is cool. If I were going to use Ruby, it would most likely be Jruby. On 12/9/08 8:16 PM, "Chad Woolley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get >> paid for something that I love to do. > > Damn, didn't mean for the trollfest to turn ugly. But it's fun to watch. > > Anyway, Rick, a few points: > > 1. I get paid to write Ruby, and I enjoy it more than I ever enjoyed > writing Java. But, as Kit said, I also work with a lot of really > cool, REALLY smart people. I worked with some really cool smart > people when I was doing Java, but just a few of them, not a LOT of > them. Smartness was the exception rather than the rule in standard > java developers, in my experience. In Ruby it seems to be the > opposite. I'm a biased troll, though... > > 2. I could care less what most developers in the world write (mostly > outsourced/offshore/corporate maintenance drones I bet, but I can't > back this up...). This is the nature of the adoption curve. > > 3. You've conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to take > advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems. Ruby has tons of > sweet, cutting-edge, actively maintained, frequently-released, > supremely hackable open source tools, libraries, and frameworks, which > is facilitated by things like RubyGems and widespread GitHub adoption. > When those don't work for you for some reason, JRuby lets you plug in > any proven, performant, scalable Java library. As I said, language > preference and market share aside, don't you agree this is a > compelling advantage of JRuby? > > Remember, I love you all. I just love to troll too :) > > -- Chad > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Ha. I am no troll. This is a Java list after all. I am quite un-trollish in saying that Java is not dead on a Java list and using evidence to support my assertion of the un-deadness of Java. Your evidence... "Ruby makes me happy and only cool people use Ruby". Wow... Convincing. Sign me up, I really want to be cool and happy. Or do you not know the definition of a troll. Let me sum it up for you. If on a java mailing list, you say that Java is dead, then you are troll. Let me repeat since you are so cool Saying that Java is dead on a Java list is the very definition of troll. Get it. Look in the mirror. See that... Troll. Comments below On 12/9/08 8:02 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ha. Sucka. > > I'm no Ruby zealot. You have sadly, and quite immaturely, mistaken a > few assertions for a stance. I don't think so. You made the assertion that Java was dead. Thus my diatribe, which was on point. > I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when > it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care > what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are > cool. I am really cool. If you don't think so, just ask my mom. > The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care > who wins or loses. I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or even > a debate. No I don't. I am not the one declaring Ruby is dead. Kettle, pot black. > > Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense > to the "Java is dead" stick as well as your feeble attempt to start > dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix. I never dissed you as I never said anything personal about you (at least not anything bad with the exception of the troll comment but that was more a clarification so as to identify what a troll is, i.e., you not me). Seems I only talked about Ruby and you are the one who came back with personal attacks. I never put "you" in my assertions as feeble at they were. :) "I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not like Ruby." Notice the distinction. I am for you, but I don't like Ruby. I guess I am not cool and hip. Oh well. I prefer well paid and well fed. Oh and I hate Ruby as much as most Java developer hate VB. > > Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame. Oh, only if ever thing were a > webapp. I mostly work on webapps. Don't most Ruby developer's mostly work on webapps? Are there a lot of Ruby desktop apps? What kind of apps are you developing with Ruby? I mean I realize it is a general purpose language, but isn't most of its growth tied to developing webapps? It is not like I went completely off topic. Is it? >But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most > ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time. Almost as ridiculous as saying "Java is Dead" when in 4 short months it grew by more than the entire Ruby market. > Though, giving in a > second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature. So, > I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of > technology. Got it. Ruby is cool and Java is a freak of nature. At least, only I say ridiculous things. Seems to be that I don't have a monopoly on ridiculous at least not on this list. > > Please don't "bite" again...spare us your drivelish-trolling. Though > I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of themselves. Yes. It is not like I am on a Ruby mailing list screaming how much I love Java. Because that would be complete "drivelish-trolling". It is not like I am on a Java list declaring that Java is dead. It is not like I am such a troll for saying on a Java list that Java is not in fact dead. JRuby is cool. It should bring some stability to all the coolness and happiness in the Ruby community. I prefer Groovy to JRuby. I will admit this is a personal preference mostly do to my hatred of Ruby. I also prefer Jython to Jruby mostly because I do not like the Ruby syntax because I thought it was weak compare to Python when I was as excited to Python as you now seem to be about Ruby. Python has also seen some strong growth more so than Ruby not that is it a contest or anything. Basically as long as I can make any money doing anything else Ruby will remain off my list. > > On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: > >> Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby. >> >> deploy/run/test not a problem >> >> mvn jetty:run >> >> >> Ok... I will bite, but just this once. >> >> When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications >> then I will >> drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing >> for the >> last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger >> than the >> entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you >> can be >> paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I >> do not >> like Ruby. >> >> For n
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Dec 9, 2008, at 9:16 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Damn, didn't mean for the trollfest to turn ugly. But it's fun to watch. I suppose it is easy to be offended by people interested in tech-A (or to the extent of passionate) if your living is based on tech-B. Offended humans usually get ugly. No love here. But, I'd still drink a beer with ya, and shake your hand. ;-) Well, except you Chad...you get neither. Ha. We're due for another Pahonix appearance. I think what Chad raised in #3 is relative. It does not take much effort to recognize why there's a lot of hype in the Ruby (Rails/Merb- fueled) world. There's a crap-load of cool, innovating technologies, that are enabling better software (via better software engineering). Just take a look at what is happening in the Java world with OSGi. The control factor is killing Java's ecosystem (the JCP) - ultimately preventing innovation. Java7 reminds me of the churning out of Vista, just to get something in stores. Please don't mistake these observations for a personal desire to see Java fail. But, having spent time with multiple EGs I can tell you it aint pretty - and Sun isn't remotely close to as "Open" as they would like the development ponds to believe. Sure, this has provided an opportunity for orgs like SpringSource to sprout (hehe), and small dev houses like G2One to make a ducket. Reality is Java isn't going away...so sleep well. Chad, you too - for there will always be good bait thrown your way. :) Java IS dead, long live Java! Man, that just cracks me up. Anyone have any experience with RTSJ? Kit - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get > paid for something that I love to do. Damn, didn't mean for the trollfest to turn ugly. But it's fun to watch. Anyway, Rick, a few points: 1. I get paid to write Ruby, and I enjoy it more than I ever enjoyed writing Java. But, as Kit said, I also work with a lot of really cool, REALLY smart people. I worked with some really cool smart people when I was doing Java, but just a few of them, not a LOT of them. Smartness was the exception rather than the rule in standard java developers, in my experience. In Ruby it seems to be the opposite. I'm a biased troll, though... 2. I could care less what most developers in the world write (mostly outsourced/offshore/corporate maintenance drones I bet, but I can't back this up...). This is the nature of the adoption curve. 3. You've conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to take advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems. Ruby has tons of sweet, cutting-edge, actively maintained, frequently-released, supremely hackable open source tools, libraries, and frameworks, which is facilitated by things like RubyGems and widespread GitHub adoption. When those don't work for you for some reason, JRuby lets you plug in any proven, performant, scalable Java library. As I said, language preference and market share aside, don't you agree this is a compelling advantage of JRuby? Remember, I love you all. I just love to troll too :) -- Chad - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Ha. Sucka. I'm no Ruby zealot. You have sadly, and quite immaturely, mistaken a few assertions for a stance. I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are cool. The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care who wins or loses. I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or even a debate. Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense to the "Java is dead" stick as well as your feeble attempt to start dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix. Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame. Oh, only if ever thing were a webapp. But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time. Though, giving in a second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature. So, I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of technology. Please don't "bite" again...spare us your drivelish-trolling. Though I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of themselves. On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby. deploy/run/test not a problem mvn jetty:run Ok... I will bite, but just this once. When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications then I will drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing for the last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger than the entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not like Ruby. For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get paid for something that I love to do. I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I wanted Jython to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with Jython (a book that no one read). When you say "Java is Dead" it sounds a lot like "Ruby has won". In terms of the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and Python. In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby has won in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with two left legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not won anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus impact in the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael Phelps. On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to already be built on Spring). Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you would be all over it. Your point is moot. Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby. JRuby development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure what your point is. The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has little influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a fluke. Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al have a much better track record (although much smaller one). FWIW, Groovy was originally "invented" by James Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the least. Well known fact and not disputed. Again Moot point. SpringSource could have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my point. Grails is tied to Groovy. The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis below is the percentage of happy developers in both camps. I would assert, but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy Ruby devers than Java devers. Not only that - but, the issue of quality comes into play some where too. I won't provide an assertion here - but, it is a relative notion. Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and hated it. What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population per se. For example, there are people in the world who are quite content drinking their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite yet. Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the fence here. It is imperative that you can see past this to the real value - developmental efficiency. There's no way Java can win - based on its code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle. Prompt> mvn jetty:run Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick. Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of development. It will take its place in history next to (at this point I realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other group of people) Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity you'll be burdened with pure Java once again. This makes no sense. Why? I ha
[jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby. deploy/run/test not a problem mvn jetty:run Ok... I will bite, but just this once. When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications then I will drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing for the last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger than the entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not like Ruby. For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get paid for something that I love to do. I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I wanted Jython to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with Jython (a book that no one read). When you say "Java is Dead" it sounds a lot like "Ruby has won". In terms of the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and Python. In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby has won in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with two left legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not won anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus impact in the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael Phelps. On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to already > be built on Spring). Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you would be all over it. Your point is moot. > Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby. JRuby > development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure what > your point is. The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has little influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a fluke. Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al have a much better track record (although much smaller one). > FWIW, Groovy was originally "invented" by James > Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the least. Well known fact and not disputed. Again Moot point. SpringSource could have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my point. Grails is tied to Groovy. > > The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis below > is the percentage of happy developers in both camps. I would assert, > but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy Ruby > devers than Java devers. Not only that - but, the issue of quality > comes into play some where too. I won't provide an assertion here - > but, it is a relative notion. Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and hated it. What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population per se. For example, there are people in the world who are quite content drinking their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite yet. > > Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the fence > here. It is imperative that you can see past this to the real value - > developmental efficiency. There's no way Java can win - based on its > code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle. Prompt> mvn jetty:run Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick. Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of development. It will take its place in history next to (at this point I realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other group of people) > Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity you'll > be burdened with pure Java once again. This makes no sense. Why? I have written large things in Groovy and did not need to revert to Java. This is silliness. Moot point. > > If for no other reason than Sun is a turd, Java is dead. Unproven opinion, easily refuted with real evidence. Java is in no way dead. It will fall out of favor eventually as all things do. Ruby will be a never was. Java will one day be a former heavy weight champion of the world. > Open > sourcing Sun's version of the JVM and platform has done nothing for > ensuring its longevity. Only said with a slight grin. > > > > On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:17 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: > >> >> RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. >> >> From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw >> numbers) >> than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way >> of your >> "Java is dead" argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby >> does not >> seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero, >> percentage of growth sky rockets, but Not enough. >> >> BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead. >> >> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programming&l= >> >> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+ruby&l= >> >> I am glad
