Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Pavel Lunin]

Is this true about MX960?  Does it have a midplane also ?
>
>
Yes though particular numbers might be different. MX960 has less backplane
capacity per slot / pfe than MX480.
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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Sebastian Becker]

Yes, this is true for the MX960.

— 
Sebastian Becker
s...@lab.dtag.de

> Am 09.12.2017 um 18:34 schrieb Aaron Gould :
> 
> 
> Is this true about MX960?  Does it have a midplane also ?
> 
> -Aaron
> 
> 

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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[adamv0025]

> Sebastian Becker
> Sent: Friday, December 08, 2017 6:35 PM
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> so after checking that with Juniper we have got an update:
> 
> MPC7E with SCBE2, Fabric Redundancy, Premium2 und Premium3: 340G
> 
> Premium2 Chassis (non-enhanced midplane):
> MPC5E 205G
> MPC7E 400G - now 340G
> 
> Premium3 Chassis (enhanced midplane):
> MPC5E 240G
> MPC7E 480G - now 340G
> 
> So even the MPC7-10G will have a performace penalty on both midplanes in
> the redundancy mode.
> 
Well yes, unfortunately SCBE2 is hugely underpowered for MPC7 -need to wait for 
SCBE3 to get redundancy. 
For now we all need to run in performance mode, if I remember correctly fabric 
queuing/dropping worked as expected (trying to protect EF) in 
redundancy/overload mode with just two or even one SCBE2, some pre-classifier 
related problems, as always :) 

adam 

netconsultings.com
::carrier-class solutions for the telecommunications industry::


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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Aaron Gould]

Is this true about MX960?  Does it have a midplane also ?

-Aaron


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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Sebastian Becker]

Hi all,

so after checking that with Juniper we have got an update:

MPC7E with SCBE2, Fabric Redundancy, Premium2 und Premium3: 340G

Premium2 Chassis (non-enhanced midplane):
MPC5E   205G
MPC7E   400G - now 340G

Premium3 Chassis (enhanced midplane):
MPC5E   240G
MPC7E   480G - now 340G

So even the MPC7-10G will have a performace penalty on both midplanes in the 
redundancy mode.

— 
Sebastian Becker


> Am 17.11.2017 um 17:38 schrieb Eduard Schornig :
> 
> Hi, 
>   
>  Sebastian is correct, MPC7-MRATE has a performance penalty on old 
> midplane. There is no difference for MPC7-10G (40 x 10G). 
> 
> --
> BR, 
> Eduard Schornig
> 
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:43 PM, Tobias Heister  > wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Am 16.11.2017 um 10:36 schrieb Sebastian Becker:
> this is the information out of the "Juniper Tech Club" in Cologne in June 
> 2016. So not only provided to us.
> If needed I can verify that with Juniper.
> 
> Feel free to do that. My informationen and recent verification from Juniper 
> confirm my assumption (hence no speed difference between midplanes for MPC7 
> and only 480G in 3+0)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kind Regards
> Tobias Heister
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> 
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp 
> 
> 

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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Tobias Heister]

Hi,

Am 16.11.2017 um 10:36 schrieb Sebastian Becker:

this is the information out of the "Juniper Tech Club" in Cologne in June 2016. 
So not only provided to us.
If needed I can verify that with Juniper.


Feel free to do that. My informationen and recent verification from Juniper 
confirm my assumption (hence no speed difference between midplanes for MPC7 and 
only 480G in 3+0)

--
Kind Regards
Tobias Heister
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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Sebastian Becker]

Hi Tobias,

this is the information out of the "Juniper Tech Club" in Cologne in June 2016. 
So not only provided to us.
If needed I can verify that with Juniper.

— 
Sebastian Becker

> Am 15.11.2017 um 16:07 schrieb Tobias Heister :
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Am 15.11.2017 um 09:13 schrieb Sebastian Becker:
>> that’s not right. You need to differ between redundancy and 
>> non-redundancy-mode:
>> With Fabric Redundancy in MX960 (SCBEs: 2 active, 1 spare):
>> Premium2 Chassis (non-enhanced midplane):
>> MPC5E205G
>> MPC7E400G
>> Premium3 Chassis (enhanced midplane):
>> MPC5E240G
>> MPC7E480G
>> In the non-redundant mode (so all three SCBEs are online and active) you 
>> will not suffer from any limitation as long as all three are online. But if 
>> one dies you will have the limitations in a Premium2 chassis. So it depends 
>> on the model you want to use. We need a full redundant switching fabric so 
>> we have to calculate with these limitations.
> 
> At least according to my information there is no difference in enhanced/non 
> enhanced for MPC7 on SCBE2 in any MX.
> There is no way to get full 480G with 2+1 with SCBE2. You can get 480 in 3+0 
> mode. (both on MX960)
> 
> The first SCB* with 2+1 and Linerate for MPC7 will be SCBE3.
> 
> But hey, your version would make more sense but all my documents and 
> information since the release of MPC7 say otherwise.
> On the other hand there are not many customers in DE who would/should know 
> better :)
> 
> -- 
> Kind Regards
> Tobias Heister

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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Tobias Heister]

Hi,

Am 15.11.2017 um 09:13 schrieb Sebastian Becker:

that’s not right. You need to differ between redundancy and non-redundancy-mode:

With Fabric Redundancy in MX960 (SCBEs: 2 active, 1 spare):

Premium2 Chassis (non-enhanced midplane):
MPC5E205G
MPC7E400G

Premium3 Chassis (enhanced midplane):
MPC5E240G
MPC7E480G

In the non-redundant mode (so all three SCBEs are online and active) you will 
not suffer from any limitation as long as all three are online. But if one dies 
you will have the limitations in a Premium2 chassis. So it depends on the model 
you want to use. We need a full redundant switching fabric so we have to 
calculate with these limitations.


At least according to my information there is no difference in enhanced/non 
enhanced for MPC7 on SCBE2 in any MX.
There is no way to get full 480G with 2+1 with SCBE2. You can get 480 in 3+0 
mode. (both on MX960)

The first SCB* with 2+1 and Linerate for MPC7 will be SCBE3.

But hey, your version would make more sense but all my documents and 
information since the release of MPC7 say otherwise.
On the other hand there are not many customers in DE who would/should know 
better :)

--
Kind Regards
Tobias Heister
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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Sebastian Becker]

Hi Tobias,

that’s not right. You need to differ between redundancy and non-redundancy-mode:

With Fabric Redundancy in MX960 (SCBEs: 2 active, 1 spare):

Premium2 Chassis (non-enhanced midplane):
MPC5E   205G
MPC7E   400G

Premium3 Chassis (enhanced midplane):
MPC5E   240G
MPC7E   480G

In the non-redundant mode (so all three SCBEs are online and active) you will 
not suffer from any limitation as long as all three are online. But if one dies 
you will have the limitations in a Premium2 chassis. So it depends on the model 
you want to use. We need a full redundant switching fabric so we have to 
calculate with these limitations.

— 
Sebastian Becker

> Am 14.11.2017 um 23:35 schrieb Tobias Heister :
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Am 14.11.2017 um 13:27 schrieb Sebastian Becker:
>> The enhanced midplane allows you already to use higher bandwidth with 
>> redundancy at least on the MX960. 205G per slot (not > enhanced) against 
>> 240G per slot (enhanced) So if you want to use a MPC5E-100G10G and populate 
>> every port (2x100G plus 4x10G) > you need the enhanced midplane and the 
>> SCBE2. Same for the MPC5E-40G10G and the Q-Versions of these cards. 
>> Otherwise you > overbook the midplane.
> 
> Funny enough the MPC7 has no reduced Bandwidth with the non enhanced 
> Midplane, so for now only MPC4/5 suffer from that old midplane. I always 
> wondered why that is the case. Might be a combination of PFE/Trio Generation 
> and frequency/speed per Serdes to Fabric connectivity. If somebody knows the 
> details i am eager to know.
> 
> We will see what SCBE3 might bring there (other than allowing us to run MPC7 
> at full speed with redundancy and pave the way for future MPC)
> 
> -- 
> Kind Regards
> Tobias Heister
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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Tobias Heister]

Hi,

Am 14.11.2017 um 13:27 schrieb Sebastian Becker:

The enhanced midplane allows you already to use higher bandwidth with redundancy at 
least on the MX960. 205G per slot (not > enhanced) against 240G per slot (enhanced) 
So if you want to use a MPC5E-100G10G and populate every port (2x100G plus 4x10G) > 
you need the enhanced midplane and the SCBE2. Same for the MPC5E-40G10G and the 
Q-Versions of these cards. Otherwise you > overbook the midplane.


Funny enough the MPC7 has no reduced Bandwidth with the non enhanced Midplane, 
so for now only MPC4/5 suffer from that old midplane. I always wondered why 
that is the case. Might be a combination of PFE/Trio Generation and 
frequency/speed per Serdes to Fabric connectivity. If somebody knows the 
details i am eager to know.

We will see what SCBE3 might bring there (other than allowing us to run MPC7 at 
full speed with redundancy and pave the way for future MPC)

--
Kind Regards
Tobias Heister
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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Daniel Roesen]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 08:55:03PM +0100, Pavel Lunin wrote:
> > Is there anyone who can give more details about the enhanced midplane?
> 
> It's just more lines (wires) to provide more fabric bandwidth per-slot/PFE.
> And maybe more power as well, I am not sure though.

No, it's just better quality multipin connectors for the fabric lanes so
they can run at a higher frequency without too much
damping/crosstalk/reflection/whatevertheproblemactuallywas.


Best regards,
Daniel

-- 
CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: d...@cluenet.de -- dr@IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0
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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Pavel Lunin]

Is there anyone who can give more details about the enhanced midplane?
>

It's just more lines (wires) to provide more fabric bandwidth per-slot/PFE.
And maybe more power as well, I am not sure though.

It's been shipping for ages (since 2012 or something like). It had been
supposed to be required even for SCBE and MPC3 non-NG but then Juniper
thought twice and finally it was not really necessarily until MPC5. See
Sebastian's comment for what it it gives in terms of bandwidth per slot.

So, in theory, all MX240/480/960 have been shipped with enhanced midplane
for many years, if only your partner/SE, or whoever makes the specs, does
his job well or you don't specifically ask for the non-enhanced version for
some reason (if it's still not EOL, I don't remember).

You can check whether you have it with the following command:

user@mx480> show chassis hardware | match Midplane
Midplane REV 04   750-047862     Enhanced MX480
Midplane

In the specs this is referred as MX480-BASE3 or -PREMIUM3 in contrast to
-BASE or -PREMIUM for non-enhanced midplane. You normally don't buy a
chassis on its own, so you don't see part codes like CHAS-BP3-MX480-S in
your BOMs.

AFAIR, you can also buy the new midplane as an FRU and change it yourself
though it requires to get all the cards out of the box.

--
Pavel
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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Sebastian Becker]

The enhanced midplane allows you already to use higher bandwidth with 
redundancy at least on the MX960. 205G per slot (not enhanced) against 240G per 
slot (enhanced) So if you want to use a MPC5E-100G10G and populate every port 
(2x100G plus 4x10G) you need the enhanced midplane and the SCBE2. Same for the 
MPC5E-40G10G and the Q-Versions of these cards. Otherwise you overbook the 
midplane.

— 
Sebastian Becker


> Am 14.11.2017 um 11:38 schrieb Olivier Benghozi :
> 
> 
> While I don't care about SONET/SDH in 2017 (sorry...), the enhanced midplane 
> (in the MX240/480/960 MX generation) also (mainly?) allows more bandwidth per 
> slot with the future SCBE3.
> You may find a fugitive Juniper 2016 PDF on your preferred search engine 
> ("SCBE3" "premium3" "mx").
> 
>> On 14 nov. 2017 at 09:56, Karl Gerhard  wrote :
>> 
>> this article is mentioning an enhanced MX480 midplane. This is the first 
>> time I hear of that: CHAS-BP-MX480-S (=Non-Enhanced) vs. CHAS-BP3-MX480-S 
>> (=Enhanced)
>> https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/junos/topics/concept/scbe2-mx480-desc.html
>> 
>> Is there anyone who can give more details about the enhanced midplane?
>> As far as I understand the cross-coupling of clock input is only related to 
>> SONET/SDH stuff, is that correct?
> 
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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Olivier Benghozi]

While I don't care about SONET/SDH in 2017 (sorry...), the enhanced midplane 
(in the MX240/480/960 MX generation) also (mainly?) allows more bandwidth per 
slot with the future SCBE3.
You may find a fugitive Juniper 2016 PDF on your preferred search engine 
("SCBE3" "premium3" "mx").

> On 14 nov. 2017 at 09:56, Karl Gerhard  wrote :
> 
> this article is mentioning an enhanced MX480 midplane. This is the first time 
> I hear of that: CHAS-BP-MX480-S (=Non-Enhanced) vs. CHAS-BP3-MX480-S 
> (=Enhanced)
> https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/junos/topics/concept/scbe2-mx480-desc.html
> 
> Is there anyone who can give more details about the enhanced midplane?
> As far as I understand the cross-coupling of clock input is only related to 
> SONET/SDH stuff, is that correct?

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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Patrick Okui]

On 14 Nov 2017, at 11:56 EAT, Karl Gerhard wrote:


As far as I understand the cross-coupling of clock input is only 
related to SONET/SDH stuff, is that correct?


Not just SDH. SyncE allows you to do frequency synchronisation of clocks 
over Ethernet transport.


http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/1394/c/20031216/Sync_Ethernet_039a_draft.pdf

Also look at the 1588 PTP documentation.

Useful for e.g LTE backhaul, or any scenario where centralised clocking 
is important.


--
patrick
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Re: [j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Nathan Ward]

> On 14/11/2017, at 9:56 PM, Karl Gerhard  wrote:
> 
> As far as I understand the cross-coupling of clock input is only related to 
> SONET/SDH stuff, is that correct?


Probably 1588 and stuff as well. Useful if you’re a mobile operator or someone 
else that cares about accurate clocking for whatever reason.

--
Nathan Ward

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[j-nsp] Enhanced MX480 Midplane?

[Karl Gerhard]

Hello

this article is mentioning an enhanced MX480 midplane. This is the first time I 
hear of that: CHAS-BP-MX480-S (=Non-Enhanced) vs. CHAS-BP3-MX480-S (=Enhanced)
https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/release-independent/junos/topics/concept/scbe2-mx480-desc.html

Is there anyone who can give more details about the enhanced midplane?
As far as I understand the cross-coupling of clock input is only related to 
SONET/SDH stuff, is that correct?

Regards
Karl
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