Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 22:43:03 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > Hi everyone, > now that we've finally agreed on a vision for KDE [1] and have that out of > the way, we can fully focus on how we want work towards that vision. > Alex has already set up a Wiki page for brainstorming notes [2], so it would > be great if everyone who has opinions or ideas about how we can nudge the > world towards the one we envision could add them to it. > It's really just brainstorming, no ideas are "bad" or anything, everyone and > everything is welcome! > > I'd suggest that we let the brainstorming phase last until Friday and then > start discussing the ideas collected on that Wiki page. two days is quite short (I just saw it right now). Let's have a week at least, i.e. April 10th ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 22:43:03 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > Hi everyone, > now that we've finally agreed on a vision for KDE [1] and have that out of > the way, we can fully focus on how we want work towards that vision. > Alex has already set up a Wiki page for brainstorming notes [2], so it would > be great if everyone who has opinions or ideas about how we can nudge the > world towards the one we envision could add them to it. > It's really just brainstorming, no ideas are "bad" or anything, everyone and > everything is welcome! > > I'd suggest that we let the brainstorming phase last until Friday and then > start discussing the ideas collected on that Wiki page. > > So now let's focus our brains on the KDE Mission and please fill the wiki > page! Thanks, so, just as a reminder: whoever wants to put his thoughts down, please do so until Sunday :-) Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Hey everyone :) We've brought up a lot of vision examples from other organisations during the vision discussion. I found this very helpful. Can we collect some for the mission as well? I added a section at the bottom of https://community.kde.org/KDE/Mission/Brainstorming for it. If you have useful pointers please add them there. Cheers Lydia ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Donnerstag, 31. März 2016 23:12:15 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > I'd suggest that we let the brainstorming phase last until Friday and then > > start discussing the ideas collected on that Wiki page. > > two days is quite short (I just saw it right now). > Let's have a week at least, i.e. April 10th ? Okay everybody, we've had a little more than a week for collecting brainstorming ideas for the mission now on https://community.kde.org/KDE/Mission/Brainstorming Unfortunately, only six people have put their ideas on the wiki, but what we have there should give us a good start for a discussion, anyway. From what I see on the wiki, there are three questions we should try to answer first: 1. Should the mission focus mostly on our organizational/community strategy, our product strategy, or both? 2. Our vision is to have an impact on everybody's lives. Should we keep our mission equally broad, or should our mission focus on (a) certain target audience(s) as a "door-opener" to reach everybody, and if so, which target audience(s) should we focus on? 3. What can our unique contribution to our vision (which is certainly shared by others as well) be? There are the things which who put their ideas on the wiki already seem to agree on: - A well-integrated suite of desktop+applications+frameworks - Cross-platform, cross-device/convergent - Providing privacy combined with a great user experience - Supporting proprietary services as a "necessary evil", but not as the final goal Now I hope that more than the six of us who put ideas on the wiki will join this discussion, so that we end up with a mission that all of KDE can identify with. Looking forward to a fruitful, cooperative discussion, Thomas ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On 12 April 2016 at 01:13, Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > From what I see on the wiki, there are three questions we should try to answer > first: > > 1. Should the mission focus mostly on our organizational/community strategy, > our product strategy, or both? I think we should aim for how we handle the organizational/community part. After all, it's what I feel makes us different from other similar environments, such as Android (or many, many others)... Bye, -Riccardo -- Pace Peace Paix Paz Frieden Pax Pokój Friður Fred Béke 和平 Hasiti Lapé Hetep Malu Mир Wolakota Santiphap Irini Peoch שלום Shanti Vrede Baris Rój Mír Taika Rongo Sulh Mir Py'guapy 평화 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Tuesday, April 12, 2016 01:13:32 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Donnerstag, 31. März 2016 23:12:15 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > > I'd suggest that we let the brainstorming phase last until Friday and > > > then > > > start discussing the ideas collected on that Wiki page. > > > > two days is quite short (I just saw it right now). > > Let's have a week at least, i.e. April 10th ? > > Okay everybody, we've had a little more than a week for collecting > brainstorming ideas for the mission now on > https://community.kde.org/KDE/Mission/Brainstorming > Unfortunately, only six people have put their ideas on the wiki, but what we > have there should give us a good start for a discussion, anyway. > > From what I see on the wiki, there are three questions we should try to > answer first: > > 1. Should the mission focus mostly on our organizational/community strategy, > our product strategy, or both? I think our Manifesto already says a lot about the community, and I still think the people asking for a direction/strategy in the survey, want that for the products KDE creates. In case we want to focus on the products, and if we want to make our products more relevant, should we try to find reasons why they are currently not as relevant as they could be ? > 2. Our vision is to have an impact on everybody's lives. Should we keep our > mission equally broad, or should our mission focus on (a) certain target > audience(s) as a "door-opener" to reach everybody, and if so, which target > audience(s) should we focus on? IMO we should at least be clear who we are targeting, we should spell it out. > 3. What can our unique contribution to our vision (which is certainly shared > by others as well) be? > > There are the things which who put their ideas on the wiki already seem to > agree on: > - A well-integrated suite of desktop+applications+frameworks > - Cross-platform, cross-device/convergent > - Providing privacy combined with a great user experience > - Supporting proprietary services as a "necessary evil", but not as the > final goal I guess we can count "run on proprietary OS's" under this last point too ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Hi, On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 22:43:03 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > Hi everyone, > now that we've finally agreed on a vision for KDE [1] and have that out of > the way, we can fully focus on how we want work towards that vision. > Alex has already set up a Wiki page for brainstorming notes [2], so it would > be great if everyone who has opinions or ideas about how we can nudge the > world towards the one we envision could add them to it. > It's really just brainstorming, no ideas are "bad" or anything, everyone and > everything is welcome! > > I'd suggest that we let the brainstorming phase last until Friday and then > start discussing the ideas collected on that Wiki page. > > So now let's focus our brains on the KDE Mission and please fill the wiki > page! Thanks, > Thomas there is somehow not much going here... Ideas how do we get this going ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Am 23.04.2016 um 22:36 schrieb Alexander Neundorf: > Hi, > > On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 22:43:03 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> now that we've finally agreed on a vision for KDE [1] and have that out of >> the way, we can fully focus on how we want work towards that vision. >> Alex has already set up a Wiki page for brainstorming notes [2], so it would >> be great if everyone who has opinions or ideas about how we can nudge the >> world towards the one we envision could add them to it. >> It's really just brainstorming, no ideas are "bad" or anything, everyone and >> everything is welcome! >> >> I'd suggest that we let the brainstorming phase last until Friday and then >> start discussing the ideas collected on that Wiki page. >> >> So now let's focus our brains on the KDE Mission and please fill the wiki >> page! Thanks, >> Thomas > there is somehow not much going here... > Ideas how do we get this going ? I would go with the 4 points you mentioned: * end-user applications * a "classic" UNIX desktop * an SDK (currently mainly KF5) * a user interface for mobile/embedded Linux systems (currently Plasma Mobile) Two suggestions: How about combining the two points "classic unix desktop" and "mobile/embedded", to clarify the team working "on the desktop" is really sharing ~80% of the code via one base (plasma) and people could use that plasma even in tv, car or aviation systems: * a modern (unix) shell, that targets the classic desktop and can converge towards mobile/embedded [somewhat like unity / android / windows10]? Also let's mention "end-user webservices" to be included, as subpoint under "end-user applications" (owncloud or wiki2learn), then this mission imo would still very focused and clear with our goals laid out in our vision. Greetings, Clemens. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Hi, Is our mission de software or is the software our way to accomplish our mission? Sent from mobile Agustin @toscalix http://uk.linkedin.com/in/toscalix On 24 Apr 2016 10:37, "Clemens Toennies" wrote: > Am 23.04.2016 um 22:36 schrieb Alexander Neundorf: > > Hi, > > On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 22:43:03 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > Hi everyone, > now that we've finally agreed on a vision for KDE [1] and have that out of > the way, we can fully focus on how we want work towards that vision. > Alex has already set up a Wiki page for brainstorming notes [2], so it would > be great if everyone who has opinions or ideas about how we can nudge the > world towards the one we envision could add them to it. > It's really just brainstorming, no ideas are "bad" or anything, everyone and > everything is welcome! > > I'd suggest that we let the brainstorming phase last until Friday and then > start discussing the ideas collected on that Wiki page. > > So now let's focus our brains on the KDE Mission and please fill the wiki > page! Thanks, > Thomas > > > there is somehow not much going here... > Ideas how do we get this going ? > > > > I would go with the 4 points you mentioned: > > >- end-user applications >- a "classic" UNIX desktop >- an SDK (currently mainly KF5) >- a user interface for mobile/embedded Linux systems (currently Plasma >Mobile) > > > Two suggestions: > How about combining the two points "classic unix desktop" and > "mobile/embedded", to clarify the team working "on the desktop" is really > sharing ~80% of the code via one base (plasma) and people could use that > plasma even in tv, car or aviation systems: > * a modern (unix) shell, that targets the classic desktop and can converge > towards mobile/embedded [somewhat like unity / android / windows10]? > > Also let's mention "end-user webservices" to be included, as subpoint > under "end-user applications" (owncloud or wiki2learn), then this mission > imo would still very focused and clear with our goals laid out in our > vision. > > Greetings, Clemens. > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Our mission is our way to accomplish our vision. If the software was our way to accomplish our mission, what would the mission be, then? On Sonntag, 24. April 2016 13:52:25 CEST Agustin Benito (toscalix) wrote: > Hi, > > Is our mission de software or is the software our way to accomplish our > mission? > > Sent from mobile > > Agustin > @toscalix > http://uk.linkedin.com/in/toscalix ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Sonntag, 24. April 2016 11:36:54 CEST Clemens Toennies wrote: > Am 23.04.2016 um 22:36 schrieb Alexander Neundorf: > > Hi, > > > > On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 22:43:03 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > >> Hi everyone, > >> now that we've finally agreed on a vision for KDE [1] and have that out > >> of > >> the way, we can fully focus on how we want work towards that vision. > >> Alex has already set up a Wiki page for brainstorming notes [2], so it > >> would be great if everyone who has opinions or ideas about how we can > >> nudge the world towards the one we envision could add them to it. > >> It's really just brainstorming, no ideas are "bad" or anything, everyone > >> and everything is welcome! > >> > >> I'd suggest that we let the brainstorming phase last until Friday and > >> then > >> start discussing the ideas collected on that Wiki page. > >> > >> So now let's focus our brains on the KDE Mission and please fill the wiki > >> page! Thanks, > >> Thomas > > > > there is somehow not much going here... > > Ideas how do we get this going ? > > I would go with the 4 points you mentioned: > > * end-user applications > * a "classic" UNIX desktop > * an SDK (currently mainly KF5) > * a user interface for mobile/embedded Linux systems (currently Plasma > Mobile) > > > Two suggestions: > How about combining the two points "classic unix desktop" and > "mobile/embedded", to clarify the team working "on the desktop" is > really sharing ~80% of the code via one base (plasma) and people could > use that plasma even in tv, car or aviation systems: > * a modern (unix) shell, that targets the classic desktop and can > converge towards mobile/embedded [somewhat like unity / android / > windows10]? I would not go into too much detail about Plasma in KDE's mission. That's what Plasma's product vision is for. If we go into so much detail about the destkop in KDE's mission, it reinforces the popular perception that KDE is all about the desktop (or still /is/ the desktop), and those creating applications which are not tied to the desktop may not feel like they're part of KDE's mission. I do agree that we should put convergence in our mission, though, because that applies to the desktop as well as applications. > Also let's mention "end-user webservices" to be included, as subpoint > under "end-user applications" (owncloud or wiki2learn), then this > mission imo would still very focused and clear with our goals laid out > in our vision. +1 We could even say that our /primary/ technology is Qt (because it is) if we want to position ourselves as the go-to community for everything Qt, without excluding non-Qt applications. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Sunday, April 24, 2016 15:04:49 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > Our mission is our way to accomplish our vision. > If the software was our way to accomplish our mission, what would the > mission be, then? Not sure I understand. Is there a "not" missing ? So, our vision is a world where everybody has full control over digital life etc. Our contribution toward that goal is providing people with software which enables them to do that. Is this kind of right ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Sunday, April 24, 2016 15:15:17 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Sonntag, 24. April 2016 11:36:54 CEST Clemens Toennies wrote:
...
> > I would go with the 4 points you mentioned:
> > * end-user applications
> > * a "classic" UNIX desktop
> > * an SDK (currently mainly KF5)
> > * a user interface for mobile/embedded Linux systems (currently Plasma
> >
> > Mobile)
> >
> > Two suggestions:
> > How about combining the two points "classic unix desktop" and
> > "mobile/embedded", to clarify the team working "on the desktop" is
> > really sharing ~80% of the code via one base (plasma) and people could
> > use that plasma even in tv, car or aviation systems:
> > * a modern (unix) shell, that targets the classic desktop and can
> > converge towards mobile/embedded [somewhat like unity / android /
> > windows10]?
>
> I would not go into too much detail about Plasma in KDE's mission. That's
> what Plasma's product vision is for.
> If we go into so much detail about the destkop in KDE's mission, it
> reinforces the popular perception that KDE is all about the desktop (or
> still /is/ the desktop), and those creating applications which are not tied
> to the desktop may not feel like they're part of KDE's mission.
>
> I do agree that we should put convergence in our mission, though, because
> that applies to the desktop as well as applications.
I agree that we shouldn't put too much detail about Plasma into KDE's mission.
I think that stating clearly "we do (among others) a UNIX desktop" is good.
That's a big part of what we do, and it is important to a big part of our
users, so they are reassured that KDE still cares about the classic desktop.
About mobile/embedded: I would love to see widespread use of a KDE "desktop
shell" there. Unfortunately I'm afraid this won't happen. There was almost no
(public) response to Agustin's recent GENIVI-related email. As much as I'd
like to see Plasma Mobile become successful, I'm afraid it won't be able to
cut a significant piece off of Android's cake. We only partially managed to do
that on the desktop, and with phones, tablets and other embedded platforms
this is even harder, due to the non-standard ARM-based platforms, where you
need an adapted OS for every board, basically.
So, realistically, if we put a desktop shell for embedded/mobile platforms in
some way in our mission, I unfortunately would expect us to fail with this
part of the mission. I'd love to be proved wrong.
Where I'd like to see a change in priorities, is support for non-free OS. I.e.
get our applications to work "properly" e.g. on Windows, OSX, Android
("properly" from the POV of the e.g. Windows user, not necessarily from the
POV of a UNIX developer).
Fortunately some efforts into that direction are currently happening.
So, I'd like to see more importance put on portability.
> > Also let's mention "end-user webservices" to be included, as subpoint
> > under "end-user applications" (owncloud or wiki2learn), then this
> > mission imo would still very focused and clear with our goals laid out
> > in our vision.
>
> +1
> We could even say that our /primary/ technology is Qt (because it is) if we
> want to position ourselves as the go-to community for everything Qt, without
> excluding non-Qt applications.
Sounds good.
Nevertheless a comment about the "end-user webservices": AFAIK OwnCloud and
WikiToLearn are quite different. OwnCloud is a developing a software, while
WikiToLearn is mainly about creating content (for a MediaWiki).
IMO creating content is not part of the core of what KDE is doing.
(I know not everbody agrees with this.)
Alex
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Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Sonntag, 24. April 2016 21:34:39 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> I agree that we shouldn't put too much detail about Plasma into KDE's
> mission.
>
> I think that stating clearly "we do (among others) a UNIX desktop" is good.
> That's a big part of what we do, and it is important to a big part of our
> users, so they are reassured that KDE still cares about the classic desktop.
>
> About mobile/embedded: I would love to see widespread use of a KDE "desktop
> shell" there. Unfortunately I'm afraid this won't happen. There was almost
> no (public) response to Agustin's recent GENIVI-related email. As much as
> I'd like to see Plasma Mobile become successful, I'm afraid it won't be
> able to cut a significant piece off of Android's cake. We only partially
> managed to do that on the desktop, and with phones, tablets and other
> embedded platforms this is even harder, due to the non-standard ARM-based
> platforms, where you need an adapted OS for every board, basically.
> So, realistically, if we put a desktop shell for embedded/mobile platforms
> in some way in our mission, I unfortunately would expect us to fail with
> this part of the mission. I'd love to be proved wrong.
Why should our mission not be ambitious?
We'll unlikely produce the "Android- or iOS killer", but especially with our
focus on both privacy and freedom, we can still be of significant value for
those who want/need both.
> Where I'd like to see a change in priorities, is support for non-free OS.
> I.e. get our applications to work "properly" e.g. on Windows, OSX, Android
> ("properly" from the POV of the e.g. Windows user, not necessarily from the
> POV of a UNIX developer).
> Fortunately some efforts into that direction are currently happening.
> So, I'd like to see more importance put on portability.
Both Android and Windows are going the route of convergence, and Kirigami is
all about both convergence and portability for applications [1] (but maybe you
are also referring to it by "efforts into that direction", anyway).
Doing solely desktop-only applications would put us on the sure path to
irrelevance, at least outside of the sector of applications which are so
complex that they only make sense on desktop computers.
> > > Also let's mention "end-user webservices" to be included, as subpoint
> > > under "end-user applications" (owncloud or wiki2learn), then this
> > > mission imo would still very focused and clear with our goals laid out
> > > in our vision.
> >
> > +1
> > We could even say that our /primary/ technology is Qt (because it is) if
> > we
> > want to position ourselves as the go-to community for everything Qt,
> > without excluding non-Qt applications.
>
> Sounds good.
>
> Nevertheless a comment about the "end-user webservices": AFAIK OwnCloud and
> WikiToLearn are quite different. OwnCloud is a developing a software, while
> WikiToLearn is mainly about creating content (for a MediaWiki).
> IMO creating content is not part of the core of what KDE is doing.
> (I know not everbody agrees with this.)
While a majority of WikiToLearn contributors may be contributing content, the
project is also about software, and big time so. They are making server-side
as well as client software (e.g. an offline reader for desktop and mobile, or a
browser plugin for automatically inserting word definitions into articles while
editing).
If you think WikiToLearn isn't really producing software, I'd recommend to
actually talk to them and let them tell you about the software they're making.
I have. It's quite inspiring, actually.
Cheers,
Thomas
[1] https://dot.kde.org/2016/03/30/kde-proudly-presents-kirigami-ui
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Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Sunday, April 24, 2016 23:08:08 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Sonntag, 24. April 2016 21:34:39 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > I agree that we shouldn't put too much detail about Plasma into KDE's
> > mission.
> >
> > I think that stating clearly "we do (among others) a UNIX desktop" is
> > good.
> > That's a big part of what we do, and it is important to a big part of our
> > users, so they are reassured that KDE still cares about the classic
> > desktop.
> >
> > About mobile/embedded: I would love to see widespread use of a KDE
> > "desktop
> > shell" there. Unfortunately I'm afraid this won't happen. There was almost
> > no (public) response to Agustin's recent GENIVI-related email. As much as
> > I'd like to see Plasma Mobile become successful, I'm afraid it won't be
> > able to cut a significant piece off of Android's cake. We only partially
> > managed to do that on the desktop, and with phones, tablets and other
> > embedded platforms this is even harder, due to the non-standard ARM-based
> > platforms, where you need an adapted OS for every board, basically.
> > So, realistically, if we put a desktop shell for embedded/mobile platforms
> > in some way in our mission, I unfortunately would expect us to fail with
> > this part of the mission. I'd love to be proved wrong.
>
> Why should our mission not be ambitious?
> We'll unlikely produce the "Android- or iOS killer", but especially with our
> focus on both privacy and freedom, we can still be of significant value for
> those who want/need both.
Yes, sure.
> > Where I'd like to see a change in priorities, is support for non-free OS.
> > I.e. get our applications to work "properly" e.g. on Windows, OSX, Android
> > ("properly" from the POV of the e.g. Windows user, not necessarily from
> > the
> > POV of a UNIX developer).
> > Fortunately some efforts into that direction are currently happening.
> > So, I'd like to see more importance put on portability.
>
> Both Android and Windows are going the route of convergence, and Kirigami is
> all about both convergence and portability for applications [1] (but maybe
> you are also referring to it by "efforts into that direction", anyway).
>
> Doing solely desktop-only applications would put us on the sure path to
> irrelevance, at least outside of the sector of applications which are so
> complex that they only make sense on desktop computers.
I'm sure you have seen that I'm not saying this at all. I mean, I mentioned
Android explicitely.
"efforts into that direction" - this years Randa meetings, Kirigami, the
efforts to get stuff working on Android, all that stuff. Great to see that
happening :-)
But, is replacing the "desktop shell" on Windows or OSX a worthwhile goal ?
Getting our applications to run there, great. But running the plasma desktop
shell on Windows is IMO a waste of developer resources.
Similar, I think we don't have a chance to replace the Android "desktop
shell". Getting our software to work great within the normal Android UI - we
should IMO focus on that. We have great software, and it would be great to
have a similar set of apps available for (not instead of) Android. And that's
an achievable and very worthwhile goal.
For actual "embedded" it may be different, but unfortunately I don't see this
happening. IMO plasma should be the go-to technology for any advanced embedded
Linux UI. But it just is not, and I don't know why. There was almost no
response to the GENIVI mail. Or maybe plasma is too complex for the typical
embedded vendor or they are just quicker with getting something which works
(but is less flexible etc.) by implementing a UI themselves.
So, I didn't say "let's ignore mobile platforms". I said "are we/what are we
trying to achieve on mobile/embedded platforms"
This is very much related to the question who we are targeting.
- do we want to become an alternative UI for commercial smartphones ?
- do we want to become the UI of choice for commercial embedded vendors ?
- do we want to be the FLOSS alternative UI on some mobile platforms, i.e.
target FLOSS enthusiasts which will install this on their tablet ?
- do we want to target the tinkerers/makers, i.e. people wo want to play with
hardware, RPi etc. ?
(the last two are again small niches...)
> If you think WikiToLearn isn't really producing software, I'd recommend to
> actually talk to them and let them tell you about the software they're
> making. I have. It's quite inspiring, actually.
I did, too.
Alex
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Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Monday, April 25, 2016 10:22:13 PM CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: > For actual "embedded" it may be different, but unfortunately I don't see > this happening. IMO plasma should be the go-to technology for any advanced > embedded Linux UI. But it just is not, and I don't know why. There was > almost no response to the GENIVI mail. Or maybe plasma is too complex for > the typical embedded vendor or they are just quicker with getting something > which works (but is less flexible etc.) by implementing a UI themselves. I wouldn't interpret too much into the GENIVI mail. Just face the fact that evaluating the situation will take several days. Unfortunately the Plasma team is rather full with work. Yes I'm interested, but till I find an empty spot for that takes some time. The mail got send in the middle of the very stressful GSoC evaluation period, etc. etc. And even if there were no replies on the mailing list we did talk with Agustin in the #plasma IRC channel. And yes from the wider community we don't get the support for such things in Plasma. Rather the opposite. We get pushback for anything leaving the traditional desktop. Constantly. Just like your mail here. Cheers, Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Hi, On 24 April 2016 at 21:34, Alexander Neundorf wrote: > Nevertheless a comment about the "end-user webservices": AFAIK OwnCloud and > WikiToLearn are quite different. OwnCloud is a developing a software, while > WikiToLearn is mainly about creating content (for a MediaWiki). > IMO creating content is not part of the core of what KDE is doing. > (I know not everbody agrees with this.) while this statement is already inaccurate for KDE, which is creating a lot of content already (icons, documentation, ...) this claim is also inaccurate for what concerns WikiToLearn: there are 57 developers (as of now) discussing on the tech channel, and about 15-20 active (i.e. with recent commits) purely software developers. So, not the majority of contributors, but not precisely a negligible team either. Bye, -Riccardo -- Pace Peace Paix Paz Frieden Pax Pokój Friður Fred Béke 和平 Hasiti Lapé Hetep Malu Mир Wolakota Santiphap Irini Peoch שלום Shanti Vrede Baris Rój Mír Taika Rongo Sulh Mir Py'guapy 평화 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 07:44:03 Martin Graesslin wrote: ... > And yes from the wider community we don't get the support for such things in > Plasma. Rather the opposite. We get pushback for anything leaving the > traditional desktop. Constantly. Just like your mail here. Sorry, I don't see any "pushback" in my mail. I wrote "I'd love to see it". And that "unfortunately it's not happening". That's my observation, and I'd much prefer to have a different impression. What can we do to improve the situation ? Or are we happy with it ? Do you have ideas why there is so little use of plasma by others ? Is that actually a goal ? Where do you see the target "market" for Plasma Mobile ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Am 26.04.2016 um 22:41 schrieb Alexander Neundorf: > On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 07:44:03 Martin Graesslin wrote: > ... > >> And yes from the wider community we don't get the support for such things in >> Plasma. Rather the opposite. We get pushback for anything leaving the >> traditional desktop. Constantly. Just like your mail here. > Sorry, I don't see any "pushback" in my mail. I wrote "I'd love to see it". > And that "unfortunately it's not happening". That's my observation, and I'd > much prefer to have a different impression. > What can we do to improve the situation ? Or are we happy with it ? > Do you have ideas why there is so little use of plasma by others ? Is that > actually a goal ? > Where do you see the target "market" for Plasma Mobile ? Hi Alex, Plasma Desktop and Mobile are just two sides from the same medal. Plasma Mobile is kind of like a "gratis by-product" of our current Qt-based Plasma Shell and KF5 surrounding technologies. Just one developer (Bhushan) is working on it (mainly porting the above technology parts to a containerized more portable base to run on arm phone or tablet device like nexus5). Marco is "half" developing for it primarly doing Kirigami, which aims for portable KDE applications for various platforms (Plasma Desktop, Android, Windows), again including Plasma Mobile kinda gratis because if it runs on Plasma [Desktop] technology, Plasma Mobile kinda comes gratis for any app using Kirigami. At least from Blue Systems, any one else are working on the "Desktop", KF5, Wayland or Apps, so the whole Plasma Mobile is more due to fun seeing our technology work on other devices than the PC because "we can". Should Mobile paradigms become the new craze and suddenly a game changer also on the desktop (like converging form factors or mobile OS simply taking over the classical desktop (Remix OS)), we are well prepared. If not, any ongoing Plasma Mobile efforts have little to virtual no extra costs, so we're by no means draining or wasting huge amounts of resources like other single-handed approaches, e.g. Firefox OS, Jolla. From this holistic view (more a free byproduct than a coerced effort), Plasma Mobile is already "constantly happening". And of course we are being realistic, that at least I don't see Plasma Mobile's value or success being based on market penetration or any phones preinstalled, but more like a showcase we can do quite an impressive free and libre mobile stack with just "1 and a half" men. Greetings, Clemens. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 10:41:19 PM CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 07:44:03 Martin Graesslin wrote: > ... > > > And yes from the wider community we don't get the support for such things > > in Plasma. Rather the opposite. We get pushback for anything leaving the > > traditional desktop. Constantly. Just like your mail here. > > Sorry, I don't see any "pushback" in my mail. I wrote "I'd love to see it". > And that "unfortunately it's not happening". That's my observation, and I'd > much prefer to have a different impression. Of course there is push-back in your mail. Basically you told us we are wasting our time trying to do a mobile shell which could replace Android. That's the pushback I'm talking about. We have seen this for years since we started with Plasma Active. There is a strong pushback from parts of the community, telling us what we should do and what we should not do. It's speaking that you don't even realize what you wrote. Of course nobody giving us the pushback realizes the level of overlap there is, how features coming from "mobile" get back to the desktop, etc. etc. The mobile efforts in Plasma are extremely important for our desktop. It's where we can roll out new ideas, new technologies. The constant pushback though, is very derailing. And now see this in the context of you concluding anything from the GENIVI mail. Who would dare to answer on a public mailing list that he is interested to look into it, if the most likely outcome is, that other people tell him that he's wasting his time. Cheers, Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 07:58:14 Martin Graesslin wrote: ... > Of course there is push-back in your mail. Basically you told us we are > wasting our time trying to do a mobile shell which could replace Android. > That's the pushback I'm talking about. We have seen this for years since we > started with Plasma Active. I had a pre-order on the Vivaldi tablet, so believe me, I would really like to see it succeed. And I am honestly wondering why it does not take off. My conclusion from the failed Vivaldi effort: getting to a state where normal people can buy a tablet with e.g. plasma mobile pre-installed is VERY hard, probably not doable, and I think the Vivaldi team tried really hard. From my POV for mobile/embedded that's actually even harder than for PCs, where you have standardized hardware. So, do we see a place where it could take off ? ... > And now see this in the context of you concluding anything from the GENIVI > mail. Who would dare to answer on a public mailing list that he is > interested to look into it, if the most likely outcome is, that other > people tell him that he's wasting his time. You are completely misunderstanding me. When I saw this from Agustin, I thought, wow, that may be finally THE chance for plasma in the embedded space. There, every device/machine has custom hardware and custom UI software, and the companies spend many payed man months and years on the UI development. Some of those could go that way via plasma into KDE. :-) Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Neundorf wrote: people can buy a tablet with e.g. plasma mobile pre-installed is VERY hard, > probably not doable, and I think the Vivaldi team tried really hard. > From my POV for mobile/embedded that's actually even harder than for PCs, > where you have standardized hardware. > > So, do we see a place where it could take off ? > > Sure we do. About 3.5 years ago, I made a proposal to run KDE software on Android Core instead of Mer: http://www.elpauer.org/2012/09/plasma-active-on-android/ Two weeks ago, at Akademy-es, when I saw the current status of Plasma Mobile (essentially only works where Ubuntu Phone works), I asked. What Bhushan is doing is very good: LXC containers on top of CyanogenMod. That opens Plasma Mobile to essentially every platform where CyanogenMod works. It is a huge leap from the current state of affairs. What I would like to see is one step further, the same proposal I made 3.5 years ago: get rid of Android UI and run Plasma Mobile on top of Android Core. In fact, let's have a "Plasma Mobile ROM Cooker" that takes an official ROM for your Android device, de-Androidizes it, and then injects Plasma Mobile for Android Core (I think Boot to Qt does something in that line). That would make Plasma Mobile run on essentially every Android device with an unlocked bootloader, and quick: hardware support comes from Android Core. Chinese Android TV box retailers in AliExpress are already offering (and doing) to replace Android with OpenELEC (I ported OpenELEC myself to one of those boxes!). No warranty and everything but they do it and you receive a TV Box with a pure Linux OpenELEC. It would not be crazy to provide them with Android Core-based Plasma Mobile ROM sfor a few popular phones (THL, XiaoMi, Doogee, ZTE, etc), and see if they want to sell them. In fact, as of today, if you want a Jolla tablet with Sailfish, they fastest and cheapest way is to buy the tablet from a Chinese retailer in TaoBao and ask them to install the Sailfish OS 2.0 ROM (they explicitly advertise it!). -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Hi everyone,
as we've found during the vision creation process that having a concrete draft
to work from can streamline the discussion, I tried to come up with one.
It goes quite into detail, but I think this is necessary in order to be useful
as practical guidance.
To fulfill our vision, KDE has taken on the mission to create products which
- give users control, freedom and privacy
- convince them - through excellent user experience - to switch away from
products which don't give them that
- reach them where they are
To provide control, freedom and privacy, KDE's products
- allow users to "tinker" with them
- apply open standards to prevent "lock-in"
- integrate well with existing online services sharing the same values, or
create their own where those do not exist
- never collect or transmit information about users without their explicit
consent ("opt-in")
- strive to provide usable security and privacy features to protect against
surveillance and data theft
To create a convincing user experience, KDE's products aim to
- have consistent, easy to use human interfaces
- provide users with _at least_ the features and quality they expect coming
from non-free products
- be at the forefront of emerging trends like mobile/desktop convergence
- integrate well with other Free products to complete the experience
To reach users where they are, KDE
- strives to make our products available on major Free but also proprietary
operating systems and platforms, mostly by applying Qt as a technology that
allows easy portability
- aims for a presence on all relevant device classes (desktop, mobile,
embedded)
- continues to offer a "classic desktop" product which makes the switch from
proprietary operating easy
- offers products that also inter-operate with proprietary software, formats
and services in order to ease the transition to Free alternatives
---
Now we have concrete points we can discuss and fine-tune.
Looking forward to your reactions,
Thomas
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Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer
wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> as we've found during the vision creation process that having a concrete draft
> to work from can streamline the discussion, I tried to come up with one.
> It goes quite into detail, but I think this is necessary in order to be useful
> as practical guidance.
>
> To fulfill our vision, KDE has taken on the mission to create products which
> - give users control, freedom and privacy
> - convince them - through excellent user experience - to switch away from
> products which don't give them that
> - reach them where they are
The convincing part is implicit in the reaching out (i.e. point 2 is in 3).
As second point, I would mention that we want to offer quality user experience.
Or maybe I didn't understand you.
> To provide control, freedom and privacy, KDE's products
> - allow users to "tinker" with them.
This tinkering can be tricky. We allow tinkering as soon as we provide
the source code, in fact. And so does any other FOSS project.
> - apply open standards to prevent "lock-in"
Apply reads weird. Leverage? Use?
> - integrate well with existing online services sharing the same values, or
> create their own where those do not exist
> - never collect or transmit information about users without their explicit
> consent ("opt-in")
That's really hard to do and could be cumbersome. For example, is
akregator sending information about users data?
Is Discover (through apt?).
Everything we use is data and using data generates data.
> - strive to provide usable security and privacy features to protect against
> surveillance and data theft
>
> To create a convincing user experience, KDE's products aim to
> - have consistent, easy to use human interfaces
> - provide users with _at least_ the features and quality they expect coming
> from non-free products
This suggests non-free products are better. Needs rewording.
> - be at the forefront of emerging trends like mobile/desktop convergence
This text will probably need to be reviewed soon, I guess :D.
> - integrate well with other Free products to complete the experience
>
> To reach users where they are, KDE
> - strives to make our products available on major Free but also proprietary
> operating systems and platforms, mostly by applying Qt as a technology that
> allows easy portability
Interesting, again needs careful wording.
> - aims for a presence on all relevant device classes (desktop, mobile,
> embedded)
We've never been on embedded as KDE (maybe KDE Frameworks have been
there though).
I'd find a better word to say "end-user devices". If we ever do
embedded, we can update it.
> - continues to offer a "classic desktop" product which makes the switch from
> proprietary operating easy
> - offers products that also inter-operate with proprietary software, formats
> and services in order to ease the transition to Free alternatives.
Is offering integration of proprietary services needed to be
mentioned? It's a strategy we might adopt (to reach out) but it's not
our mission. The mission is to have the "good services" adopted (by a
definition of good services). Or not. Up for discussion.
HTH,
Aleix
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Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Donnerstag, 28. April 2016 18:23:51 CEST Aleix Pol wrote:
> > To fulfill our vision, KDE has taken on the mission to create products
> > which>
> > - give users control, freedom and privacy
> > - convince them - through excellent user experience - to switch away from
> >
> > products which don't give them that
> >
> > - reach them where they are
>
> The convincing part is implicit in the reaching out (i.e. point 2 is in 3).
> As second point, I would mention that we want to offer quality user
> experience. Or maybe I didn't understand you.
Hm, is it really implicit? Reaching users where they are alone does not
automatically convince them to "come to the good side", does it? At least not
for me, but maybe it's implicit for others.
And does "through excellent user experience" not cover "quality user
experience"?
> > To provide control, freedom and privacy, KDE's products
> > - allow users to "tinker" with them.
>
> This tinkering can be tricky. We allow tinkering as soon as we provide
> the source code, in fact. And so does any other FOSS project.
Sure, but our software usually allows a lot of tinkering without the need to
go into the source code. For me, e.g. the flexibility Plasma offers falls
already under "tinkering". Maybe the word triggers the wrong associations,
though.
Ideas for what to replace it with?
> > - apply open standards to prevent "lock-in"
>
> Apply reads weird. Leverage? Use?
Hm, "apply" still appears fitting for me, but "use" works, too, of course.
> > - never collect or transmit information about users without their explicit
> > consent ("opt-in")
>
> That's really hard to do and could be cumbersome. For example, is
> akregator sending information about users data?
> Is Discover (through apt?).
> Everything we use is data and using data generates data.
Good point. What I'm referring to is that we don't collect data on some
servers. Collecting and using data locally is fine because they're still under
the user's control. Maybe
"Never transmit traceable information about users outside their device without
their explicit consent (opt-in)"?
> > To create a convincing user experience, KDE's products aim to
> > - have consistent, easy to use human interfaces
> > - provide users with _at least_ the features and quality they expect
> > coming
> > from non-free products
>
> This suggests non-free products are better. Needs rewording.
In reality, while we are better than proprietary products in some areas, we're
sill only trying to catch up with them in others. You are right, though, that
the goal should always be to be better. so:
"-provide users with better quality / features than what they're used to from
non-free products"
> > - be at the forefront of emerging trends like mobile/desktop convergence
>
> This text will probably need to be reviewed soon, I guess :D.
Our assumption always was that the mission is much more in flux than the
vision, so I think it's okay to pick up current trends in the mission.
> > To reach users where they are, KDE
> > - strives to make our products available on major Free but also
> > proprietary
> > operating systems and platforms, mostly by applying Qt as a technology
> > that
> > allows easy portability
>
> Interesting, again needs careful wording.
What would you change about the wording?
> > - aims for a presence on all relevant device classes (desktop, mobile,
> > embedded)
>
> We've never been on embedded as KDE (maybe KDE Frameworks have been
> there though).
> I'd find a better word to say "end-user devices". If we ever do
> embedded, we can update it.
So is embedded not even our goal at the moment? I think it should be. The
sentence says "aims for", not "currently does".
> > - continues to offer a "classic desktop" product which makes the switch
> > from proprietary operating easy
> > - offers products that also inter-operate with proprietary software,
> > formats and services in order to ease the transition to Free
> > alternatives.
> Is offering integration of proprietary services needed to be
> mentioned? It's a strategy we might adopt (to reach out) but it's not
> our mission. The mission is to have the "good services" adopted (by a
> definition of good services). Or not. Up for discussion.
For me that's an important part of reaching users where they are. From my
perspective, the strategy should be "Allow them to use the proprietary service
they're used to, but show them how much better they'd be off if they used our
product with the free alternative."
For example, Kontact and Kube _should_ work with e.g. Google services, but
show their full potential when used with Free groupwares such as Kolab.
Or I would want Dolphin to work with Google Drive, but I want it to work best
with e.g. ownCloud.
> HTH,
> Aleix
Thank you a lot for your feedback!
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Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Hi,
On Thursday, April 28, 2016 12:21:28 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> as we've found during the vision creation process that having a concrete
> draft to work from can streamline the discussion, I tried to come up with
> one. It goes quite into detail, but I think this is necessary in order to
> be useful as practical guidance.
wow, quite long. :-)
Does the order of the sections imply priorities ?
E.g. "tinkering" comes before "presence on all device classes" ?
> To fulfill our vision, KDE has taken on the mission to create products which
> - give users control, freedom and privacy
> - convince them - through excellent user experience - to switch away from
> products which don't give them that
> - reach them where they are
>
> To provide control, freedom and privacy, KDE's products
> - allow users to "tinker" with them
As Aleix said, what do you mean exactly with that ?
I could interpret it as
- sources are available
- it is easy to build
- it's highly configurable
- data is stored in easily accessible formats (text, or documented binary, or
binary with low level tools, etc) ?
> - apply open standards to prevent "lock-in"
> - integrate well with existing online services sharing the same values, or
> create their own where those do not exist
I wouldn't want to restrict us to integrating well with online services which
share the same values.
This implies to me that good integration with e.g. Facebook or being able to
use a kdepim client to connect to an Outlook server is not a top priority for
us. Both are ...very important for a large set of users. More or less
everybody is on Facebook, if you need to work with an Outlook server at your
job it would be great to be able to do that using at least a client which
gives you freedom and privacy.
> - never collect or transmit information about users without their explicit
> consent ("opt-in")
> - strive to provide usable security and privacy features to protect against
> surveillance and data theft
>
> To create a convincing user experience, KDE's products aim to
> - have consistent, easy to use human interfaces
> - provide users with _at least_ the features and quality they expect coming
> from non-free products
Well, we have the advantage that our software is free, so we offer freedom,
independency and (if we are successful with that) privacy, something non-free
software just can't do. If our software is also stable and reliable then, I
can very well live with software which has somewhat less features than non-
free products.
> - be at the forefront of emerging trends like mobile/desktop convergence
Boring engineer speaking: Nice goal. Not sure how realistic this is.
We have only a very limited number of full-time developers, so aiming for very
advanced, complex solutions can quickly require more resources (developer
time, for new devices also actual money) than we have.
> - integrate well with other Free products to complete the experience
>
> To reach users where they are, KDE
> - strives to make our products available on major Free but also proprietary
> operating systems and platforms, mostly by applying Qt as a technology that
> allows easy portability
I'd simply put "Free and propriety" instead of "Free but also proprietary", so
they both sound like equally first class target platforms.
> - aims for a presence on all relevant device classes (desktop, mobile,
> embedded)
To me this means e.g. that we'll try to get our applications running on
Android (good !). Is this how this is intended ?
Do we aim for embedded ?
IMO with KF5 and Plasma we can, I don't know how much that POV is shared.
> - continues to offer a "classic desktop" product which makes the switch from
> proprietary operating easy
"continues to" sounds a bit ...not strong enough, like "well, we didn't kill
it yet".
Also I'd leave out the "switch from proprietary operating [systems] easy".
We can stress that we provide a first class desktop for Linux/UNIX OSs.
Beside that, I'd prefer us to be mostly OS-agnostic. If we can give a user on
... Windows [maybe it'll be Open Source in a few years, who knows, MS ain't
that evil anymore], Free software for his needs, let's say email, office,
education software for kids, etc., that's a great achievement. That this runs
on top of a proprietary kernel, oh well, IMO the OS is not our mission.
> - offers products that also inter-operate with proprietary software, formats
> and services in order to ease the transition to Free alternatives
>
> ---
> Now we have concrete points we can discuss and fine-tune.
> Looking forward to your reactions,
I like your draft.
It does not mention providing libraries explicitely, but focuses only on
applications (if I didn't miss it).
Is that something which should be added ?
Alex
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Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Thursday, April 28, 2016 22:32:21 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Donnerstag, 28. April 2016 18:23:51 CEST Aleix Pol wrote: ... > > Is offering integration of proprietary services needed to be > > mentioned? It's a strategy we might adopt (to reach out) but it's not > > our mission. The mission is to have the "good services" adopted (by a > > definition of good services). Or not. Up for discussion. > > For me that's an important part of reaching users where they are. From my > perspective, the strategy should be "Allow them to use the proprietary > service they're used to, but show them how much better they'd be off if > they used our product with the free alternative." > > For example, Kontact and Kube _should_ work with e.g. Google services, but > show their full potential when used with Free groupwares such as Kolab. > Or I would want Dolphin to work with Google Drive, but I want it to work > best with e.g. ownCloud. I disagree with this. For online services, which are usually about working together with other people, a user often doesn't have a choice. He simply must use the online service his colleagues or friends etc. are using. IMO KDEs mission is to provide applications which offer a great user experience with the online services the user uses. If they are free ones, even better. But IMO KDEs mission is not to make users switch to other online services, that's probably the mission e.g. of diaspora. If we want to give free software (freedom, control, privacy) to as many people as possible, top priority should be the online services most people use. Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 22:43:02 +0200 From: Alexander Neundorf To: informing about and discussing non-technical community topics Subject: Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! Message-ID:<2628160.naub4nz...@tuxedo.neundorf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, On Thursday, April 28, 2016 12:21:28 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: >Hi everyone, >as we've found during the vision creation process that having a concrete >draft to work from can streamline the discussion, I tried to come up with >one. It goes quite into detail, but I think this is necessary in order to >be useful as practical guidance. >To provide control, freedom and privacy, KDE's products >- allow users to "tinker" with them As Aleix said, what do you mean exactly with that ? I could interpret it as - sources are available - it is easy to build - it's highly configurable - data is stored in easily accessible formats (text, or documented binary, or binary with low level tools, etc) ? I think the 2 first are normal for FOSS. What we should emphasis on is more the 3rd and 4th point. 3rd for users to have more power, 4th for them to be sure that if one day KDE dies (not soon hopefully :D), their data are not lost.I like your draft. It does not mention providing libraries explicitely, but focuses only on applications (if I didn't miss it). Is that something which should be added ? I like this draft and everything you answered. I think one should emphasis on the libraries as well in order to show that our target users are not only end-users but developers as well. I would really like that someone who uses Qt is able to say "Oh the KDE Frameworks are great, let's reuse that instead of rewritting from scratch!" Like people use V-PLay or what not based on Qt. Something else: I'm not sure it should be part of the mission: the way to achieve all this? Having common user interface design (work with the VDG), same type of configuration windows (use Frameworks libraries), having webpresence (up to date websites, documentation online,...). I write this last part (webpresence) because I think it's somewhere we are not so good at, and being part of the mission could put some incentive on it. We really need that to get more users IMOH. Olivier ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Donnerstag, 28. April 2016 23:07:45 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Thursday, April 28, 2016 22:32:21 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > On Donnerstag, 28. April 2016 18:23:51 CEST Aleix Pol wrote: > ... > > > > Is offering integration of proprietary services needed to be > > > mentioned? It's a strategy we might adopt (to reach out) but it's not > > > our mission. The mission is to have the "good services" adopted (by a > > > definition of good services). Or not. Up for discussion. > > > > For me that's an important part of reaching users where they are. From my > > perspective, the strategy should be "Allow them to use the proprietary > > service they're used to, but show them how much better they'd be off if > > they used our product with the free alternative." > > > > For example, Kontact and Kube _should_ work with e.g. Google services, but > > show their full potential when used with Free groupwares such as Kolab. > > Or I would want Dolphin to work with Google Drive, but I want it to work > > best with e.g. ownCloud. > > I disagree with this. > For online services, which are usually about working together with other > people, a user often doesn't have a choice. He simply must use the online > service his colleagues or friends etc. are using. > IMO KDEs mission is to provide applications which offer a great user > experience with the online services the user uses. If they are free ones, > even better. > But IMO KDEs mission is not to make users switch to other online services, > that's probably the mission e.g. of diaspora. If we want to give free > software (freedom, control, privacy) to as many people as possible, top > priority should be the online services most people use. It's completely fine for you to disagree with this, of course. It is, indeed, a matter of priorities. The reason why I wrote it this way is that even if the whole world used our software to access proprietary services, our vision would still not be fulfilled. You cannot have full control, freedom (and in most cases not privacy, either) with proprietary services, even if you use Free software to access them. That's why for me, supporting proprietary services can only be the first step (meeting users where they are), but they won't really be free until they use a fully free stack. The goal of the mission is not to get us a little more market share. The goal of the mission is our vision, and proprietary services are not in line with our vision. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Donnerstag, 28. April 2016 22:43:02 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > Does the order of the sections imply priorities ? > E.g. "tinkering" comes before "presence on all device classes" ? Not really, I just put them in the order they came to my mind. If you think a different order makes more sense, I'm absolutely fine with that. > > To provide control, freedom and privacy, KDE's products > > - allow users to "tinker" with them > > As Aleix said, what do you mean exactly with that ? > I could interpret it as > - sources are available > - it is easy to build > - it's highly configurable > - data is stored in easily accessible formats (text, or documented binary, > or binary with low level tools, etc) ? I had all of them in mind (except "easy to build", but tha's just because I if I build software myself, I always use scripts that make it easy to build, anyway). Should we put all of them in separate bullets instead? > > - apply open standards to prevent "lock-in" > > - integrate well with existing online services sharing the same values, or > > create their own where those do not exist > > I wouldn't want to restrict us to integrating well with online services > which share the same values. > This implies to me that good integration with e.g. Facebook or being able to > use a kdepim client to connect to an Outlook server is not a top priority > for us. Both are ...very important for a large set of users. More or less > everybody is on Facebook, if you need to work with an Outlook server at > your job it would be great to be able to do that using at least a client > which gives you freedom and privacy. From my perspective, integrating well with services that track users to sell information on them and/or lock them into a certain ecosystem does not promote users' control, freedom or privacy at all. That's why for me, integrating with those is purely a part of "reaching users where they are", not of giving them control, freedom and privacy. See also my reply to your other email. > > - provide users with _at least_ the features and quality they expect > > coming > > from non-free products > > Well, we have the advantage that our software is free, so we offer freedom, > independency and (if we are successful with that) privacy, something > non-free software just can't do. If our software is also stable and > reliable then, I can very well live with software which has somewhat less > features than non- free products. While I, as a user, have the same perspective as you do, I fear that this is not ambitious enough given our goal is to give control, freedom and privacy to _everyone_ . If we think that freedom and privacy should be enough to convince people, we only reach those who value these highly. All those for whom they are nice, but not very important won't sacrifice functionality or quality for them. > > - be at the forefront of emerging trends like mobile/desktop convergence > > Boring engineer speaking: Nice goal. Not sure how realistic this is. > We have only a very limited number of full-time developers, so aiming for > very advanced, complex solutions can quickly require more resources > (developer time, for new devices also actual money) than we have. "Be at the forefront" may be a bit marketing-speech, but currently, convergence is clearly a goal for us, for Plasma as well as applications. Kirigami is all about convergence, and there are several convergence-ready applications currently in development. I think it KDE would be in a much better place right now if we had embraced emerging trends like cloud, mobile and now convergence earlier. Especially young developers want to do things which are hip and cool _now_, not things that were hip and cool five years ago. If we don't even aim to embrace emerging trends due to our limited man-power, we create a nice little self-fulfilling prophecy / vicious circle for ourselves. > > - integrate well with other Free products to complete the experience > > > > To reach users where they are, KDE > > - strives to make our products available on major Free but also > > proprietary > > operating systems and platforms, mostly by applying Qt as a technology > > that > > allows easy portability > > I'd simply put "Free and propriety" instead of "Free but also proprietary", > so they both sound like equally first class target platforms. We obviously have different opinions here. While I agree with you that proprietary platforms should get much more attention from us than they do now, I'd still like to give Free platforms a higher priority, because according to our vision, that's where we want people to end up eventually. > > - aims for a presence on all relevant device classes (desktop, mobile, > > embedded) > > To me this means e.g. that we'll try to get our applications running on > Android (good !). Is this how this is intended ? Android is a platform, "mobile" is a device class. Android is certainly a very important ave
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Freitag, 29. April 2016 14:32:33 CEST Olivier Churlaud wrote: > > As Aleix said, what do you mean exactly with that ? > > I could interpret it as > > - sources are available > > - it is easy to build > > - it's highly configurable > > - data is stored in easily accessible formats (text, or documented binary, > > or binary with low level tools, etc) ? > > I think the 2 first are normal for FOSS. What we should emphasis on is > more the 3rd and 4th point. 3rd for users to have more power, 4th for > them to be sure that if one day KDE dies (not soon hopefully :D), their > data are not lost.I like your draft. Makes sense. How would you phrase the two points? > > It does not mention providing libraries explicitely, but focuses only on > > applications (if I didn't miss it). > > Is that something which should be added ? > > I like this draft and everything you answered. I think one should > emphasis on the libraries as well in order to show that our target users > are not only end-users but developers as well. > I would really like that someone who uses Qt is able to say "Oh the KDE > Frameworks are great, let's reuse that instead of rewritting from > scratch!" Like people use V-PLay or what not based on Qt. See my reply to Alex' email for that. > Something else: I'm not sure it should be part of the mission: the way > to achieve all this? Having common user interface design (work with the > VDG), same type of configuration windows (use Frameworks libraries), > having webpresence (up to date websites, documentation online,...). > I write this last part (webpresence) because I think it's somewhere we > are not so good at, and being part of the mission could put some > incentive on it. We really need that to get more users IMOH. Good points! This is kind of a "third level", because it describes how we want to achieve a good user experience. I think we definitely should document those things clearly. The question is if they should go into a third document (which could be called "Strategy") in order to not make the mission too long, or if it should be right there with the mission. I'm a bit unsure here, as both alternatives would have benefits and drawbacks. Thank you for the input,. Thomas ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Friday, April 29, 2016 17:01:27 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Donnerstag, 28. April 2016 22:43:02 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote:
...
> > > - be at the forefront of emerging trends like mobile/desktop convergence
> >
> > Boring engineer speaking: Nice goal. Not sure how realistic this is.
> > We have only a very limited number of full-time developers, so aiming for
> > very advanced, complex solutions can quickly require more resources
> > (developer time, for new devices also actual money) than we have.
>
> "Be at the forefront" may be a bit marketing-speech, but currently,
> convergence is clearly a goal for us, for Plasma as well as applications.
> Kirigami is all about convergence, and there are several convergence-ready
> applications currently in development.
>
> I think it KDE would be in a much better place right now if we had embraced
> emerging trends like cloud, mobile and now convergence earlier. Especially
> young developers want to do things which are hip and cool _now_, not things
> that were hip and cool five years ago.
>
> If we don't even aim to embrace emerging trends due to our limited
> man-power, we create a nice little self-fulfilling prophecy / vicious
> circle for ourselves.
Yes, sure, no objections, I just consider it unrealistic.
> > > - integrate well with other Free products to complete the experience
> > >
> > > To reach users where they are, KDE
> > > - strives to make our products available on major Free but also
> > > proprietary
> > > operating systems and platforms, mostly by applying Qt as a technology
> > > that
> > > allows easy portability
> >
> > I'd simply put "Free and propriety" instead of "Free but also
> > proprietary",
> > so they both sound like equally first class target platforms.
>
> We obviously have different opinions here. While I agree with you that
> proprietary platforms should get much more attention from us than they do
> now, I'd still like to give Free platforms a higher priority, because
> according to our vision, that's where we want people to end up eventually.
I fully agree that the ideal target state is that the user runs fully on free
software, on his systems and on the remote servers he connects to.
The question is how to get there.
I have several thoughts regarding this.
1.) Is the OS so important ? Is it the "holy grail" to make the user switch
his *OS kernel* to a free one (Linux) ?
In the meantime my opinion has changed in this regard. If the user can benefit
from the freedom and privacy let's say Calligra, kdepim and kdeedu offer, even
if his OS is still e.g. OSX, then we as KDE have done him a great service, and
that's a very worthwhile goal.
2.) Our strategy has always been to put free systems first, and make support
for proprietary systems second class at best. Looking at the success of "Linux
on the desktop", it seems this is not the way to go in the future, if we want
our applications to become more relevant.
3.) Should we focus our efforts on the stuff we are doing and leave other
areas to those who work on them ?
I think so.
Let's split the software a user has contact with into categories: the software
stack could be simplified for our purposes to OS, user shell, applications.
The systems could be split into remote systems (servers) and local systems
(PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones, ...).
This would give a matrix, and which cells in this matrix are our business ?
I think the OS is not, neither on the local nor the remote systems.
The "user shell" is on desktop Linux, not on Windows and OSX, on mobile
Linux/Android it's up for discussion.
The applications, that's what we do for the user's local systems, all of them.
For the servers, well, not in general. We shouldn't try to build the better
Facebook. Let's simply leave that to others. But, there are cases where the
differences are blurry, like running an application on the server and make it
available though the browser. Or a hypothetical web office suite using KDE- or
Calligra libraries internally.
So, I'd say let's concentrate on what we are really doing, and strive for
world domination ("everyone" as the vision says) in these areas (yes, I do
consider this realistically achievable), and leave the other fields to others.
We should simply try to serve our users best, offer top support for what they
are working with, be it file formats, online services, etc.
...
> > Do we aim for embedded ?
> > IMO with KF5 and Plasma we can, I don't know how much that POV is shared.
>
> That one is still up for discussion. I think we should. It's also a matter
> of the definition of "embedded". For me (and at least the "Linux on
> embedded systems" article on Wikipedia [1]), e.g. in-vehicle entertainment
> systems are "embedded systems". For Aleix, they are more like tablets
> inserted into a car.
>
> So if we count things like IVIs and TVs under embedded, then yes, I think
> they should definitely be our goal.
For me, yes, those count. For the use
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Saturday, April 30, 2016 23:22:40 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
...
> So, I'd say let's concentrate on what we are really doing, and strive for
> world domination ("everyone" as the vision says) in these areas (yes, I do
> consider this realistically achievable), and leave the other fields to
> others. We should simply try to serve our users best, offer top support for
> what they are working with, be it file formats, online services, etc.
E.g. I think this
https://micreabog.wordpress.com/2016/05/01/akonadi-resource-for-microsoft-exchange-web-services-ews/
is a great effort ! :-)
Not that I think everybody should use a Exchange server, but as long as kdepim
does not support that mostly feature-complete and reliably, in many settings
kdepim is simply out of the game.
A recent news item said that Windows now dropped below 90 % :
http://venturebeat.com/2016/05/01/windows-7-drops-under-50-market-share-xp-falls-below-10/
...but desktop Linux has a whopping 1.5% (according to them).
So, IMO, if we want our software to become more relevant, trying to push users
to full FLOSS systems (from OS over apps over online services) is maybe not
the best way.
Alex
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Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Hi everyone, thank you all for the feedback! It seems we're now in a mode of fleshing out details, for which I find emails not optimal. Therefore, I've put up a my original of the draft on the Wiki [1] (where we can all edit it while keeping all revisions available), then I immediately created a first revision, trying to incorporate the ideas which were brought up in this thread. I've also added promoting development of Free software in general as a goal, under which I've put creating libraries, mentoring and collaboration with other orgs sharing our values, since all that has become quite important for KDE over the years. So, feel free to edit the Wiki page, or bring up points for further discussion here. Let's finish our mission before we lose interest ;) Cheers, Thomas [1] https://community.kde.org/KDE/Mission ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Monday, May 09, 2016 17:54:13 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > Hi everyone, > thank you all for the feedback! > It seems we're now in a mode of fleshing out details, for which I find > emails not optimal. Therefore, I've put up a my original of the draft on > the Wiki [1] (where we can all edit it while keeping all revisions > available), then I immediately created a first revision, trying to > incorporate the ideas which were brought up in this thread. > > I've also added promoting development of Free software in general as a goal, > under which I've put creating libraries, mentoring and collaboration with > other orgs sharing our values, since all that has become quite important > for KDE over the years. > > So, feel free to edit the Wiki page, or bring up points for further > discussion here. > > Let's finish our mission before we lose interest ;) thanks for pushing :-) No objections from my side, just a few thoughts, in no specific order: * I don't like the term "reach where they are", to me this always kind of implies that the person in question is currently somehow in a wrong place (in German: "die Leute da abholen, wo sie sind" :-/ ) Basically this is the "everyone" from the vision. So maybe "To be able to make the software available to everyone, KDE"... ? * To me, "classic desktop" does not really fit into "reach users where they are" * One could argue that to provide control, freedom and privacy for users, KDE's products do not only need to have those properties, but the products actually need to cover a substantial range of the users needs. IOW, e.g. by offering a range of niche nerdy applications, let's say 3D printer software and a desktop ruler, we wouldn't do much to achieve our vision. So, should there be some mention of what we want to "produce" ? Something like desktop, office, education, creation, etc. ? * you mention "embedded". I haven't seen any comments here e.g. from KF5- or plasma-developers expressing strong interest. * "on major [...] OS" -> "on all major [...] OS" ? * "have consistent [...] interfaces", "available on major [...] OS, e.g. by applying Qt" can easily be interpreted that Qt (and our set of libraries) is used to achieve portability and consistent user interfaces, which could easily be interpreted as e.g. a gtk-application is not part of our mission... * the two last points of "to create a convincing user experience" are quite generic and inconcrete, i.e. they don't add much tangible Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Montag, 9. Mai 2016 22:49:15 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > Let's finish our mission before we lose interest ;) > > thanks for pushing :-) > > No objections from my side, just a few thoughts, in no specific order: Glad to hear :) > * I don't like the term "reach where they are", to me this always > kind of implies that the person in question is currently somehow in a wrong > place (in German: "die Leute da abholen, wo sie sind" :-/ ) > Basically this is the "everyone" from the vision. > So maybe > "To be able to make the software available to everyone, KDE"... ? There are actually slightly different underlying positions concerning priorities: I assume that for both of us, a perfect world would be one where everybody used exclusively free software/hardware/services/content. We both know that this will probably never happen, so we have to aim for something more realistic. And this is where our priorities diverge: - For me, it's more important to get people away from as much non-Free stuff as possible - For you, it's more important to get our Free stuff to as many people as possible Both positions are perfectly valid, of course. Now the problem is: How can we tell what KDE as a whole puts more emphasis on, when nobody but us voices their opinion? > * To me, "classic desktop" does not really fit into "reach users where they > are" Ok, so where would you put it? I'm open to any suggestion here. > * One could argue that to provide control, freedom and privacy for users, > KDE's products do not only need to have those properties, but the products > actually need to cover a substantial range of the users needs. > IOW, e.g. by offering a range of niche nerdy applications, let's say 3D > printer software and a desktop ruler, we wouldn't do much to achieve our > vision. > So, should there be some mention of what we want to "produce" ? > Something like desktop, office, education, creation, etc. ? Even "niche nerdy applications" do contribute to our vision, but of course the more users, the bigger the impact. The question is, though: Does the "substantial range of the users needs" really need to be covered by KDE software? For example, there is still no advanced photo editing software from KDE, because the Krita team decided that GIMP has that need covered just fine and Krita should focus on digital painting instead. I, personally, think that the goal should be that /Free Software/ covers all common user needs. Whether that software is made by KDE, GNOME, GNU, TDF, Apache, any other organization or an independent project does not matter that much to me. Of course there are some applications which greatly benefit from a very tight integration with the desktop environment or other applications, and it makes sense to offer these from one source, but that group might not actually be all that big. That said, I have nothing against offering some examples of areas we think we should cover, I just won't be the one to provide them. > * you mention "embedded". I haven't seen any comments here e.g. from KF5- or > plasma-developers expressing strong interest. I'd like to keep it in unless someone says they explicitly do not want to target embedded. The mission should not just reflect what we're already doing, but what we _should_ be doing, after all. > * "on major [...] OS" -> "on all major [...] OS" ? Ok. > * "have consistent [...] interfaces", "available on major [...] OS, e.g. by > applying Qt" can easily be interpreted that Qt (and our set of libraries) is > used to achieve portability and consistent user interfaces, which could > easily be interpreted as e.g. a gtk-application is not part of our > mission... As far as portability (especially towards mobile platforms) is concerned, GTK is indeed not the toolkit of choice. In the mobile space, Qt (or more specifically QtQuick) seems to have pretty clearly won against GTK. I don't see how mentioning Qt as an example of a toolkit that helps us with that effort would exclude GTK applications. If someone would ask us what toolkit to use for a new KDE application, we'd still very likely recommend Qt, though. Maybe I'll just spell out "for example" because that makes it harder to miss than "e.g.". > * the two last points of "to create a convincing user experience" are quite > generic and inconcrete, i.e. they don't add much tangible They are, but I think they are important as reminders that we should not oppose things which are out of our comfort zone. The last point is mostly to make sure we keep doing what we're doing in that regard, the third is remind us not to repeat our mistakes from the past (like being wy too late to the mobile party) I think both points are important. Suggestions for how to make them more tangible are welcome! > Alex Thank you for the input, Thomas ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/k
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Thank you! The comments on the Dot story about the vision mentioned the need not to overlook accessibility for users with special needs. Obviously I agree, having started in KDE through kde-accessibility. I have added a sentence where the text mentions configuration and “the user’s need”. Best regards, Olaf Am 9. Mai 2016 17:54:13 MESZ, schrieb Thomas Pfeiffer : >Hi everyone, >thank you all for the feedback! >It seems we're now in a mode of fleshing out details, for which I find >emails >not optimal. Therefore, I've put up a my original of the draft on the >Wiki [1] >(where we can all edit it while keeping all revisions available), then >I >immediately created a first revision, trying to incorporate the ideas >which >were brought up in this thread. > >I've also added promoting development of Free software in general as a >goal, >under which I've put creating libraries, mentoring and collaboration >with >other orgs sharing our values, since all that has become quite >important for >KDE over the years. > >So, feel free to edit the Wiki page, or bring up points for further >discussion >here. > >Let's finish our mission before we lose interest ;) > >Cheers, >Thomas > >[1] https://community.kde.org/KDE/Mission >___ >kde-community mailing list >kde-community@kde.org >https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail gesendet.___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 17:18:39 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Montag, 9. Mai 2016 22:49:15 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: ... > > * I don't like the term "reach where they are", to me this > > always kind of implies that the person in question is currently somehow > > in a wrong place (in German: "die Leute da abholen, wo sie sind" :-/ ) > > Basically this is the "everyone" from the vision. > > So maybe > > "To be able to make the software available to everyone, KDE"... ? > > There are actually slightly different underlying positions concerning > priorities: > I assume that for both of us, a perfect world would be one where everybody > used exclusively free software/hardware/services/content. We both know that > this will probably never happen, so we have to aim for something more > realistic. And this is where our priorities diverge: > - For me, it's more important to get people away from as much non-Free stuff > as possible > - For you, it's more important to get our Free stuff to as many people as > possible Yes, kind of. But actually it's both very very similar. I mean, with every piece of free software we get somebody to use, we get this person away from one piece of non-free software. :-) > Both positions are perfectly valid, of course. Now the problem is: How can > we tell what KDE as a whole puts more emphasis on, when nobody but us > voices their opinion? Maybe post to a few more mailing lists, e.g. kde-devel, plasma-devel, kde- core-devel, kde-frameworks-devel, is there a calligra-dvel ? > > * To me, "classic desktop" does not really fit into "reach users where > > they > > are" > > Ok, so where would you put it? I'm open to any suggestion here. > > > * One could argue that to provide control, freedom and privacy for users, > > KDE's products do not only need to have those properties, but the products > > actually need to cover a substantial range of the users needs. > > IOW, e.g. by offering a range of niche nerdy applications, let's say 3D > > printer software and a desktop ruler, we wouldn't do much to achieve our > > vision. > > So, should there be some mention of what we want to "produce" ? > > Something like desktop, office, education, creation, etc. ? > > Even "niche nerdy applications" do contribute to our vision, but of course > the more users, the bigger the impact. > > The question is, though: Does the "substantial range of the users needs" > really need to be covered by KDE software? For example, there is still no > advanced photo editing software from KDE, because the Krita team decided > that GIMP has that need covered just fine and Krita should focus on digital > painting instead. That's indeed a good question. We can continue this list e.g. with a state-of- the-art web browser and a production-ready word processor... > I, personally, think that the goal should be that /Free Software/ covers all > common user needs. Whether that software is made by KDE, GNOME, GNU, TDF, > Apache, any other organization or an independent project does not matter > that much to me. > > Of course there are some applications which greatly benefit from a very > tight integration with the desktop environment or other applications, and > it makes sense to offer these from one source, but that group might not > actually be all that big. > > That said, I have nothing against offering some examples of areas we think > we should cover, I just won't be the one to provide them. It would be nice if more people would contribute to the discussion... My impression (and also my opinion): our goal as KDE is not to be known for a few odd applications for special use-cases, but as the primary source for the applications "normal" users use every day: the "desktop" (plasma + kwin), the basic applications (text editor, terminal, file manager, image viewer, media player, etc.) and "advanced" applications (office, IDE, edu, games). IOW, creating just a few cool applications is not our mission, but covering (more or less) the full spectrum. I think this view is supported by the concerns many contributors raise that they want KDE to become more "relevant" again. Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
Hi Thomas, On Tuesday 10 May 2016 22:48:01 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 17:18:39 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: ... > > Both positions are perfectly valid, of course. Now the problem is: How can > > we tell what KDE as a whole puts more emphasis on, when nobody but us > > voices their opinion? > > Maybe post to a few more mailing lists, e.g. kde-devel, plasma-devel, kde- > core-devel, kde-frameworks-devel, is there a calligra-dvel ? I have the impression this is not going well here. How can we get more people to participate ? Simply post to k-c-d and k-f-d ? Or try with some controversial post ? ;-) Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Montag, 16. Mai 2016 22:59:59 CEST you wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > On Tuesday 10 May 2016 22:48:01 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 17:18:39 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > ... > > > > Both positions are perfectly valid, of course. Now the problem is: How > > > can > > > we tell what KDE as a whole puts more emphasis on, when nobody but us > > > voices their opinion? > > > > Maybe post to a few more mailing lists, e.g. kde-devel, plasma-devel, kde- > > core-devel, kde-frameworks-devel, is there a calligra-dvel ? > > I have the impression this is not going well here. > How can we get more people to participate ? > Simply post to k-c-d and k-f-d ? > Or try with some controversial post ? ;-) Hi Alex, thank you for reminding me of the email I had been wanting to write today: To be honest, I don't think the reach of this mailing list is the problem. I've heard from quite a few people who have been following this discussion, but have not participated in it (for various reasons). Therefore, I changed plans. Instead of trying to get more people to participate in the discussion here, I will do what I'm trained to do: I'll conduct a survey. I think we've already come quite far with the draft and I don't think we need much more open discussion. We have a quite good draft, but in several points, we have your personal opinion against my personal opinion, and now I think the next step whould be to find out what the majority (especially the "silent majority") thinks. Tomorrow I will try to identify the points which are still contested (and I'm happy for you or others to contribute to that as well) and put them in a survey (along with those on which we agree, just to make sure the majority agrees with us as well) which I will spread via the Dot, this list, the ev- membership list and maybe kde-devel just to be sure. This survey will also invite people to join the mailing list discussion, but will primarily aim to just get numbers on those issues where we don't know what the majority thinks. While I'm confident that we have found a Vision which everybody agrees to, I feel that for some points of the Mission, we'll have to go with a majority vote, because there are competing standpoints which are both valid but cannot really be harmonized. On the other hand, I do not think the standpoints are so far apart that those who prefer the minority position would not be able to identify with the Mission as a whole anymore if we adopted the majority position. So, unless there are strong arguments against this approach, this is what I will do. Cheers, Thomas ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this!
On Monday 16 May 2016 23:37:17 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Montag, 16. Mai 2016 22:59:59 CEST you wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > > > On Tuesday 10 May 2016 22:48:01 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > > On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 17:18:39 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > ... > > > > > > Both positions are perfectly valid, of course. Now the problem is: How > > > > can > > > > we tell what KDE as a whole puts more emphasis on, when nobody but us > > > > voices their opinion? > > > > > > Maybe post to a few more mailing lists, e.g. kde-devel, plasma-devel, > > > kde- > > > core-devel, kde-frameworks-devel, is there a calligra-dvel ? > > > > I have the impression this is not going well here. > > How can we get more people to participate ? > > Simply post to k-c-d and k-f-d ? > > Or try with some controversial post ? ;-) > > Hi Alex, > thank you for reminding me of the email I had been wanting to write today: > To be honest, I don't think the reach of this mailing list is the problem. > I've heard from quite a few people who have been following this discussion, > but have not participated in it (for various reasons). > Therefore, I changed plans. Instead of trying to get more people to > participate in the discussion here, I will do what I'm trained to do: I'll > conduct a survey. > > I think we've already come quite far with the draft and I don't think we > need much more open discussion. We have a quite good draft, but in several > points, we have your personal opinion against my personal opinion, and now > I think the next step whould be to find out what the majority (especially > the "silent majority") thinks. > > Tomorrow I will try to identify the points which are still contested (and > I'm happy for you or others to contribute to that as well) and put them in > a survey (along with those on which we agree, just to make sure the > majority agrees with us as well) which I will spread via the Dot, this > list, the ev- membership list and maybe kde-devel just to be sure. > > This survey will also invite people to join the mailing list discussion, but > will primarily aim to just get numbers on those issues where we don't know > what the majority thinks. > > While I'm confident that we have found a Vision which everybody agrees to, I > feel that for some points of the Mission, we'll have to go with a majority > vote, because there are competing standpoints which are both valid but > cannot really be harmonized. On the other hand, I do not think the > standpoints are so far apart that those who prefer the minority position > would not be able to identify with the Mission as a whole anymore if we > adopted the majority position. > > So, unless there are strong arguments against this approach, this is what I > will do. Sounds good, I'm happy to help. Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Dienstag, 17. Mai 2016 22:06:30 CEST you wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > thank you for reminding me of the email I had been wanting to write today: > > To be honest, I don't think the reach of this mailing list is the problem. > > I've heard from quite a few people who have been following this > > discussion, > > but have not participated in it (for various reasons). > > Therefore, I changed plans. Instead of trying to get more people to > > participate in the discussion here, I will do what I'm trained to do: I'll > > conduct a survey. > > > > I think we've already come quite far with the draft and I don't think we > > need much more open discussion. We have a quite good draft, but in several > > points, we have your personal opinion against my personal opinion, and now > > I think the next step whould be to find out what the majority (especially > > the "silent majority") thinks. > > > > Tomorrow I will try to identify the points which are still contested (and > > I'm happy for you or others to contribute to that as well) and put them in > > a survey (along with those on which we agree, just to make sure the > > majority agrees with us as well) which I will spread via the Dot, this > > list, the ev- membership list and maybe kde-devel just to be sure. > > > > This survey will also invite people to join the mailing list discussion, > > but will primarily aim to just get numbers on those issues where we don't > > know what the majority thinks. > > > > While I'm confident that we have found a Vision which everybody agrees to, > > I feel that for some points of the Mission, we'll have to go with a > > majority vote, because there are competing standpoints which are both > > valid but cannot really be harmonized. On the other hand, I do not think > > the standpoints are so far apart that those who prefer the minority > > position would not be able to identify with the Mission as a whole > > anymore if we adopted the majority position. > > > > So, unless there are strong arguments against this approach, this is what > > I > > will do. > > Sounds good, I'm happy to help. I have created a survey draft at http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything that you think should be changed. Once it feels like we agree on the survey, I'll publish it on the Dot and on the kde-community and kde-devel mailing lists, hoping to reach most KDE contributors and interested users. Thank you in advance for your feedback, Thomas ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
Thank you, this is done excellently! Olaf Am 18. Mai 2016 23:43:12 MESZ, schrieb Thomas Pfeiffer : >On Dienstag, 17. Mai 2016 22:06:30 CEST you wrote: >> > Hi Alex, >> > thank you for reminding me of the email I had been wanting to write >today: >> > To be honest, I don't think the reach of this mailing list is the >problem. >> > I've heard from quite a few people who have been following this >> > discussion, >> > but have not participated in it (for various reasons). >> > Therefore, I changed plans. Instead of trying to get more people to >> > participate in the discussion here, I will do what I'm trained to >do: I'll >> > conduct a survey. >> > >> > I think we've already come quite far with the draft and I don't >think we >> > need much more open discussion. We have a quite good draft, but in >several >> > points, we have your personal opinion against my personal opinion, >and now >> > I think the next step whould be to find out what the majority >(especially >> > the "silent majority") thinks. >> > >> > Tomorrow I will try to identify the points which are still >contested (and >> > I'm happy for you or others to contribute to that as well) and put >them in >> > a survey (along with those on which we agree, just to make sure the >> > majority agrees with us as well) which I will spread via the Dot, >this >> > list, the ev- membership list and maybe kde-devel just to be sure. >> > >> > This survey will also invite people to join the mailing list >discussion, >> > but will primarily aim to just get numbers on those issues where we >don't >> > know what the majority thinks. >> > >> > While I'm confident that we have found a Vision which everybody >agrees to, >> > I feel that for some points of the Mission, we'll have to go with a >> > majority vote, because there are competing standpoints which are >both >> > valid but cannot really be harmonized. On the other hand, I do not >think >> > the standpoints are so far apart that those who prefer the minority >> > position would not be able to identify with the Mission as a whole >> > anymore if we adopted the majority position. >> > >> > So, unless there are strong arguments against this approach, this >is what >> > I >> > will do. >> >> Sounds good, I'm happy to help. > >I have created a survey draft at >http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en > >Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything >that you >think should be changed. > >Once it feels like we agree on the survey, I'll publish it on the Dot >and on >the kde-community and kde-devel mailing lists, hoping to reach most KDE > >contributors and interested users. > >Thank you in advance for your feedback, >Thomas > >___ >kde-community mailing list >kde-community@kde.org >https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
Hi, On Wednesday 18 May 2016 23:43:12 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: ... > I have created a survey draft at > http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en > > Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything that you > think should be changed. > > Once it feels like we agree on the survey, I'll publish it on the Dot and on > the kde-community and kde-devel mailing lists, hoping to reach most KDE > contributors and interested users. here are a few comments: Section "Support for services" -- - there's a typo "servies" - the first point says "Focus more in [free services]", the third point says "Focus on [dominating services]". I would put the "more" also in the third point. Or maybe for both use "prioritize support for [Free/dominating] services" ? Section "I consider myself" --- I consider myself as "formerly very active, now only sporadically active, and still cares a lot". Which should I check ? Section "To promote the development of Free software in general" --- There's the option "...provide ... libraries which facilitate the development of ... Qt applications". Personally I agree with this point, but not necessarily as "promote ... Free software", but as a useful tool for developers, also for proprietary applications (... to pull also those developers into KDE). Can we make that somehow into a question ? Maybe "Should KDE libraries target mainly * free software developers * both free and proprietary software developers" ? Misc * I'd like to have a point like "reliable, backwards compatible and stable" somewhere. Maybe in "How important are the following aspects" ? * Should there be a question about the group of users ? Or do we just assume all users are equally important ? Like - home users - business/office users - schools/universities/(kindergarten ?) - developers - FLOSS geeks * Would it make sense to have two additional levels, like "absolutely must" and "not at all, never" ? (I would consider many points very important, but a few exceptionally, absolutely must). * I'm not too happy with the "How should KDE treat Free vs. Proprietary OS" section. E.g. for Windows and OSX vs. Linux and FreeBSD I would say "equally", which translates to "make Windows and OSX first class targets" (while they are second class right now). OTOH, does Android count as Free or proprietary ? And, when asking focus on Android or Plasma Mobile, I would actually say getting KDE applications onto Android is more important, since that we millions of users can quickly benefit from all the advantages (freedom, control, etc.) KDE provides. Could the survey ask something like "How should KDE treat the following OS - Linux - FreeBSD - Other BSDs, Hurd, etc. - Windows - OSX - Mobile Linux (Mer, Plasma Mobile ?) - Android - did I forget something ? with the two options "important" and "not so important" * Related to the target OS, should there be a question something like "What do you consider more important for a KDE application running outside the Plasma desktop, e.g. on Windows, OSX, Android: - that it integrates well with other KDE applications on that platform and works as similar as possible to running under Plasma - that it integrates as good as possible with the desktop environment it is running in/it tries to fullfill the expections of users on that platform ?" * should there be a question asking what kind of application spectrum KDE should try to cover ? Something like - anything that is free and useful - applications with a state of the art user interface (typically a GUI) - applications that cover as much as possible of the everyday needs of a home user" ? Thanks Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Freitag, 20. Mai 2016 00:14:36 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: > Hi, > > On Wednesday 18 May 2016 23:43:12 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > ... > > > I have created a survey draft at > > http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en > > > > Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything that > > you think should be changed. > > > > Once it feels like we agree on the survey, I'll publish it on the Dot and > > on the kde-community and kde-devel mailing lists, hoping to reach most > > KDE contributors and interested users. > > here are a few comments: > > > Section "Support for services" > -- > - there's a typo "servies" Thanks, fixed. > - the first point says "Focus more in [free services]", the third point says > "Focus on [dominating services]". I would put the "more" also in the third > point. Or maybe for both use "prioritize support for [Free/dominating] > services" ? Good point! I'll go for "prioritize support". It's a bit more difficult language, but also more clear on the other hand. > > Section "I consider myself" > --- > > I consider myself as "formerly very active, now only sporadically active, > and still cares a lot". Which should I check ? Hm, so how about ... a regularly active KDE contributor ... a sporadically active KDE contributor ... a formerly active KDE contributor who still cares about KDE Would that work? > Section "To promote the development of Free software in general" > --- > > There's the option "...provide ... libraries which facilitate the > development of ... Qt applications". > Personally I agree with this point, but not necessarily as "promote ... > Free software", but as a useful tool for developers, also for proprietary > applications (... to pull also those developers into KDE). > Can we make that somehow into a question ? > Maybe > "Should KDE libraries target mainly > * free software developers > * both free and proprietary software developers" ? The reason why I listed libraries only under that aspect is that I wanted to make sure that all aspects of the mission relate to the vision. Is getting new contributors for our libraries (and by extension to KDE in general) the reason why we make them available for proprietary applications as well? In that case, how does that relate to our vision? > Misc > > > * I'd like to have a point like "reliable, backwards compatible and stable" > somewhere. Maybe in "How important are the following aspects" ? Ok, I can add that to the user experience point. I'm not sure if "backwards compatible" is clear enough, though. Backwards compatible regarding what? Data formats? And what is the difference between "stable" and "reliable" in this regard? > * Should there be a question about the group of users ? Or do we just assume > all users are equally important ? Like > - home users > - business/office users > - schools/universities/(kindergarten ?) > - developers > - FLOSS geeks A question about our target audience makes sense, yes. I've added one with these options: "Regular" home users Free software enthusiasts Business/ office users Students (at schools or universities) Children Developers System administrators "Specialists" (e.g. scientists, engineers, artists, ...) Everyone > * Would it make sense to have two additional levels, like "absolutely must" > and "not at all, never" ? (I would consider many points very important, but > a few exceptionally, absolutely must). Hm. I could change the labels for the extremes to "Not useful at all" and "Essential". Not sure if the scale should be extended to 7, though. > * I'm not too happy with the "How should KDE treat Free vs. Proprietary OS" > section. > E.g. for Windows and OSX vs. Linux and FreeBSD I would say "equally", which > translates to "make Windows and OSX first class targets" (while they are > second class right now). > OTOH, does Android count as Free or proprietary ? > And, when asking focus on Android or Plasma Mobile, I would actually say > getting KDE applications onto Android is more important, since that we > millions of users can quickly benefit from all the advantages (freedom, > control, etc.) KDE provides. > Could the survey ask something like > "How should KDE treat the following OS > - Linux > - FreeBSD > - Other BSDs, Hurd, etc. > - Windows > - OSX > - Mobile Linux (Mer, Plasma Mobile ?) > - Android > - did I forget something ? > with the two options "important" and "not so important" This sounds like it's interesting to find out, but I'm not sure if it's the right scope for the Mission. Do we really want the mission to be so detailed that it mentions the importance of specific operating systems? > * Related to the target OS, should there be a question something like > "What do you consider more important for a KDE application running outside > the Plasma desktop, e.g. on Windows, OSX, Android: > -
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
I get: Error We are sorry but you don't have permissions to do this. Please contact Thomas Pfeiffer ( thomas.pfeif...@kde.org ) for further assistance. Thanks Marta ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Samstag, 21. Mai 2016 17:25:06 CEST Marta Rybczynska wrote: > I get: > Error > > We are sorry but you don't have permissions to do this. Ah yes, sorry, I had deactivated it to make changes and then forgot to activate it again. Should work again now! ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
Hi, On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Alexander Neundorf wrote: > Hi, > > On Wednesday 18 May 2016 23:43:12 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > ... >> I have created a survey draft at >> http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en >> >> Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything that you >> think should be changed. >> >> Once it feels like we agree on the survey, I'll publish it on the Dot and on >> the kde-community and kde-devel mailing lists, hoping to reach most KDE >> contributors and interested users. > > > here are a few comments: > > > Section "Support for services" > -- > - there's a typo "servies" > - the first point says "Focus more in [free services]", the third point says > "Focus on [dominating services]". I would put the "more" also in the third > point. Or maybe for both use "prioritize support for [Free/dominating] > services" ? One of our historical problems, in my opinion, has been our little engagement with the "commercial world". Words can help or holding us back from turning up side down our current situation. Two examples: I consider the word "support" controversial. Support in commercial environments has a specific meaning. It is related with paid service. I would use a different word. The other word is "product". I understand that Open Source projects, and we are no exception, have a bigger and better "end to end" conscious. That is good. Still, there are several stages of what the commercial world understands as "product cycle" we do not cover. The motivation for creating "products" is also different, so the expected outcome. I would use a different word in the Mission statement. ++ KDE and Qt I think we should try to better reflect the aim that KDE has to become even more relevant in the Qt ecosystem, and how important it is to us. I read two references in the current draft: * "strives to make our products available on all major Free and proprietary operating systems and platforms, for example by applying Qt as a technology that allows easy portability" * "provides frameworks and libraries which facilitate the development of high-quality Qt applications" I would remove both references. The first one is irrelevant. In the same way that we mentioned Qt we could have mentioned any other technology. In a mission statement every word counts. In fact, I think that in general we have too many already. It is not easy, I understand. The second one reduces our scope. I thought we agreed on being a host for different projects. It seems here that if it is not a Qt based app I would write instead a sentence that reflects the position within the Qt ecosystem we want to play and how important it is to us. ++ Free vs Open Source I do not like the idea that "Open Source" is the default way for 99% of the world to refer to Free Software. Like most of you, I think it refers to a wider concept. open does not mean free, right? But, specially in commercial environments, that is the current state. I propose to use "Open and Free Software", Free and Open Source Software" or "Libre Software" instead of "Free Software" . I think the above changes would help to reduce our gap with the commercial world.. ++ Participation in key forums There is something missing to me. The Free Qt Foundation has demonstrated to be a key player, we participate in other forums How is that reflected in our mission for the coming years? Do we want to improve our positioning? How? Is it important to us? important enough to be reflected in the Mission Statement? Do we participate only to promote Free Software values? ++ "classic desktop" We have suffered the last few years from having two different visions within our community on what desktop means/is. Going through the process of redefining the strategy should serve to solve these kind of fundamental issues. When I read the mission, I understand that we have used a "political way" to provide satisfaction to both views. In that regard, these two points: * aims for a presence on all relevant device classes (desktop, mobile, embedded) * offers a "classic desktop" product which makes the switch from other popular operating systems easy do the job very well. I question though that this is the way to go. We should focus on solving this issue and state the consensus clearly in the Mission Statement instead of perpetuating the problem, leaving our mission, that should lead our main goals for the coming years, unclear. Do we understand desktop as Plasma for a laptop or a PC or is a desktop also Plasma for mobiles and embedded, for instance? Is a desktop an "application" or a "base layer" in a block diagram where apps lay upon? Is it both? At the mission level, what is so relevant (other than our own "issue") that force us to differentiate between a 7"screen from a 32" one in such a way? So my suggestion is to solve this controversy for once and find a single sentence that reflects the agreement. If we can
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Sonntag, 22. Mai 2016 15:38:39 CEST Agustin Benito (toscalix) wrote: > One of our historical problems, in my opinion, has been our little > engagement with the "commercial world". Words can help or holding us > back from turning up side down our current situation. > > Two examples: > > I consider the word "support" controversial. Support in commercial > environments has a specific meaning. It is related with paid service. > I would use a different word. How about "compatibility with"? > The other word is "product". > > I understand that Open Source projects, and we are no exception, have > a bigger and better "end to end" conscious. That is good. Still, there > are several stages of what the commercial world understands as > "product cycle" we do not cover. The motivation for creating > "products" is also different, so the expected outcome. > > I would use a different word in the Mission statement. For me, using the word "product" is very important especially in the Mission statement. Yes, we currently do not treat what we make as "products", and I think that is a problem. If there are stages of a product life-cycle we do not cover, than chances are that we _should_. Thinking in terms of products would remind us that we should think about quality, about bringing our products to market or about handling "end of life" properly. This is one area where I think KDE is not "professional" enough, and it would be helpful especially for a better relationship with the "commercial world" if we improved that. > ++ KDE and Qt > > I think we should try to better reflect the aim that KDE has to become > even more relevant in the Qt ecosystem, and how important it is to us. > I read two references in the current draft: > > * "strives to make our products available on all major Free and > proprietary operating systems and platforms, for example by applying > Qt as a technology that allows easy portability" > * "provides frameworks and libraries which facilitate the development > of high-quality Qt applications" > > I would remove both references. > > The first one is irrelevant. In the same way that we mentioned Qt we > could have mentioned any other technology. In a mission statement > every word counts. In fact, I think that in general we have too many > already. It is not easy, I understand. I had put that in because in the Vision discussion, several participants expressed their fear that KDE might be losing its focus on Qt, so I wanted to make clear that Qt is still very important to us and we are still very important for Qt. Since the survey is there to find out what the majority of the community thinks, though, maybe I should add another question "Should a focus on Qt be stated in our Mission?" Then we find out what the community thinks. > The second one reduces our scope. I thought we agreed on being a host > for different projects. It seems here that if it is not a Qt based > app We do host many different projects and they do not necessarily have to be Qt- based, but do we want to host non-Qt _libraries_ as well? > I would write instead a sentence that reflects the position within the > Qt ecosystem we want to play and how important it is to us. Suggestions for how to phrase such a question are welcome! > ++ Free vs Open Source > > I do not like the idea that "Open Source" is the default way for 99% > of the world to refer to Free Software. Like most of you, I think it > refers to a wider concept. open does not mean free, right? But, > specially in commercial environments, that is the current state. > > I propose to use "Open and Free Software", Free and Open Source > Software" or "Libre Software" instead of "Free Software" . Ok, makes sense, I'll change "Free Software" to "Free and Open-Source Software". > I think the above changes would help to reduce our gap with the > commercial world.. > > ++ Participation in key forums > > There is something missing to me. > > The Free Qt Foundation has demonstrated to be a key player, we > participate in other forums How is that reflected in our mission > for the coming years? Do we want to improve our positioning? How? Is > it important to us? important enough to be reflected in the Mission > Statement? Do we participate only to promote Free Software values? Good point! Any idea how we could phrase that as a question for the survey? > ++ "classic desktop" > > We have suffered the last few years from having two different visions > within our community on what desktop means/is. Going through the > process of redefining the strategy should serve to solve these kind of > fundamental issues. > > When I read the mission, I understand that we have used a "political > way" to provide satisfaction to both views. In that regard, these two > points: > > * aims for a presence on all relevant device classes (desktop, mobile, > embedded) * offers a "classic desktop" product which makes the switch from > other popular operating s
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Sunday, May 22, 2016 7:29:22 PM CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > 1.- I believe that mobile/desktop convergence is not an emerging trend > > anymore. > > > > 2.- We do an innovative and modern desktop. Even if we do a "classical > > desktop", we should not state it that way in our mission. The next few > > years should be about keeping what is good about the "old concept" > > that took us here and evolving it. We are not dealing with cars from > > 1920 here. If we have to use quotes in a Mission statement, a document > > that should be crystal clear not just to ourselves but the "external > > world"... > > This is exactly the kind of question why I've set up the survey: I know that > some people still care a lot about the "classical desktop" (i.e. a thing > that runs on desktop and laptop PCs) whereas for others, desktop and laptop > PCs are just one among many device classes and form factors. > > Since the Mission should reflect where the majority of the KDE community > wants to go, I want to offer people the possibility to clearly state what > they care about more. This is why I have both variants in the survey and we > can see which gets what score. The mission should also not alienate our developer base. If the mission states we aim for a classical desktop I would consider that a punch in my face. I'm working full time on a desktop, but I don't consider this as a "classical" desktop. I consider my work going on a very modern product, not something classical. Just my 2 cents Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Montag, 23. Mai 2016 07:37:49 CEST Martin Graesslin wrote: > On Sunday, May 22, 2016 7:29:22 PM CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > > 1.- I believe that mobile/desktop convergence is not an emerging trend > > > anymore. > > > > > > 2.- We do an innovative and modern desktop. Even if we do a "classical > > > desktop", we should not state it that way in our mission. The next few > > > years should be about keeping what is good about the "old concept" > > > that took us here and evolving it. We are not dealing with cars from > > > 1920 here. If we have to use quotes in a Mission statement, a document > > > that should be crystal clear not just to ourselves but the "external > > > world"... > > > > This is exactly the kind of question why I've set up the survey: I know > > that some people still care a lot about the "classical desktop" (i.e. a > > thing that runs on desktop and laptop PCs) whereas for others, desktop > > and laptop PCs are just one among many device classes and form factors. > > > > Since the Mission should reflect where the majority of the KDE community > > wants to go, I want to offer people the possibility to clearly state what > > they care about more. This is why I have both variants in the survey and > > we > > can see which gets what score. > > The mission should also not alienate our developer base. If the mission > states we aim for a classical desktop I would consider that a punch in my > face. I'm working full time on a desktop, but I don't consider this as a > "classical" desktop. I consider my work going on a very modern product, not > something classical. Good point, "classical" may have been unfortunate wording (interestingly enough, the wording did originally come from someone who seems to actually care more about Plasma Desktop than other Plasma shells). Maybe we can just kick that question out of the survey, given that we ask about each device class separately anyway. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
Hi, Sent from mobile Agustin @toscalix http://uk.linkedin.com/in/toscalix On 22 May 2016 19:29, "Thomas Pfeiffer" wrote: > > On Sonntag, 22. Mai 2016 15:38:39 CEST Agustin Benito (toscalix) wrote: > > > One of our historical problems, in my opinion, has been our little > > engagement with the "commercial world". Words can help or holding us > > back from turning up side down our current situation. > > > > Two examples: > > > > I consider the word "support" controversial. Support in commercial > > environments has a specific meaning. It is related with paid service. > > I would use a different word. > > How about "compatibility with"? > > > The other word is "product". > > > > I understand that Open Source projects, and we are no exception, have > > a bigger and better "end to end" conscious. That is good. Still, there > > are several stages of what the commercial world understands as > > "product cycle" we do not cover. The motivation for creating > > "products" is also different, so the expected outcome. > > > > I would use a different word in the Mission statement. > > For me, using the word "product" is very important especially in the Mission > statement. Yes, we currently do not treat what we make as "products", and I > think that is a problem. > If there are stages of a product life-cycle we do not cover, than chances are > that we _should_. Thinking in terms of products would remind us that we should > think about quality, about bringing our products to market or about handling > "end of life" properly. > > This is one area where I think KDE is not "professional" enough, and it would > be helpful especially for a better relationship with the "commercial world" if > we improved that. > > > ++ KDE and Qt > > > > I think we should try to better reflect the aim that KDE has to become > > even more relevant in the Qt ecosystem, and how important it is to us. > > I read two references in the current draft: > > > > * "strives to make our products available on all major Free and > > proprietary operating systems and platforms, for example by applying > > Qt as a technology that allows easy portability" > > * "provides frameworks and libraries which facilitate the development > > of high-quality Qt applications" > > > > I would remove both references. > > > > The first one is irrelevant. In the same way that we mentioned Qt we > > could have mentioned any other technology. In a mission statement > > every word counts. In fact, I think that in general we have too many > > already. It is not easy, I understand. > > I had put that in because in the Vision discussion, several participants > expressed their fear that KDE might be losing its focus on Qt, so I wanted to > make clear that Qt is still very important to us and we are still very > important for Qt. > Since the survey is there to find out what the majority of the community > thinks, though, maybe I should add another question > "Should a focus on Qt be stated in our Mission?" > Then we find out what the community thinks. > > > The second one reduces our scope. I thought we agreed on being a host > > for different projects. It seems here that if it is not a Qt based > > app > > We do host many different projects and they do not necessarily have to be Qt- > based, but do we want to host non-Qt _libraries_ as well? > > > I would write instead a sentence that reflects the position within the > > Qt ecosystem we want to play and how important it is to us. > > Suggestions for how to phrase such a question are welcome! > > > ++ Free vs Open Source > > > > I do not like the idea that "Open Source" is the default way for 99% > > of the world to refer to Free Software. Like most of you, I think it > > refers to a wider concept. open does not mean free, right? But, > > specially in commercial environments, that is the current state. > > > > I propose to use "Open and Free Software", Free and Open Source > > Software" or "Libre Software" instead of "Free Software" . > > Ok, makes sense, I'll change "Free Software" to "Free and Open-Source > Software". > > > I think the above changes would help to reduce our gap with the > > commercial world.. > > > > ++ Participation in key forums > > > > There is something missing to me. > > > > The Free Qt Foundation has demonstrated to be a key player, we > > participate in other forums How is that reflected in our mission > > for the coming years? Do we want to improve our positioning? How? Is > > it important to us? important enough to be reflected in the Mission > > Statement? Do we participate only to promote Free Software values? > > Good point! Any idea how we could phrase that as a question for the survey? > > > ++ "classic desktop" > > > > We have suffered the last few years from having two different visions > > within our community on what desktop means/is. Going through the > > process of redefining the strategy should serve to solve these kind of > > fundamental issues. > > > > When I read the mission, I u
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 11:43:12 PM CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > I have created a survey draft at > http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en > > Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything that you > think should be changed. I think the section "I consider myself as..." needs to be extended. I would like us to get information about what people are contributing to. Maybe the view of the world is different in various groups (e.g. Plasma devs and Kate devs). Also I would like to figure out how active the people. So I suggest to include somthing like: Last time contributed to KDE: * this month * during last three months * during last half year * during last year * longer than a year ago * longer than five years ago And add a free text field with: Project you contribute most to: (e.g. Plasma, Kate, translations, visual design, forums support, Wiki2Learn) Freetext as I think we have too many projects to make it a drop down. So rather have people enter manually. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 11:43:12 PM CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > I have created a survey draft at > http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en > > Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything that you > think should be changed. I have a problem with answering "...strive to make our products available on all major Free and proprietary operating systems and platforms" I'm all for making our apps available everywhere so would go very to the left, but for Plasma I would go very to the right. And thinking about it: not all products make sense everywhere. No matter how much I strive for it, KWin won't run on Windows (probably not even with the new Linux support in Windows 10). So maybe that needs to be more fine grained? Worded differently? Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Montag, 23. Mai 2016 16:56:43 CEST Martin Graesslin wrote: > On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 11:43:12 PM CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > I have created a survey draft at > > http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en > > > > Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything that > > you think should be changed. > > I think the section "I consider myself as..." needs to be extended. I would > like us to get information about what people are contributing to. Maybe the > view of the world is different in various groups (e.g. Plasma devs and Kate > devs). Also I would like to figure out how active the people. > > So I suggest to include somthing like: > Last time contributed to KDE: > * this month > * during last three months > * during last half year > * during last year > * longer than a year ago > * longer than five years ago > > And add a free text field with: > Project you contribute most to: (e.g. Plasma, Kate, translations, visual > design, forums support, Wiki2Learn) > > Freetext as I think we have too many projects to make it a drop down. So > rather have people enter manually. Okay, makes sense, I'll add that! Thanks! ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Montag, 23. Mai 2016 17:03:11 CEST Martin Graesslin wrote: > On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 11:43:12 PM CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > I have created a survey draft at > > http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en > > > > Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything that > > you think should be changed. > > I have a problem with answering > "...strive to make our products available on all major Free and proprietary > operating systems and platforms" > > I'm all for making our apps available everywhere so would go very to the > left, but for Plasma I would go very to the right. And thinking about it: > not all products make sense everywhere. No matter how much I strive for it, > KWin won't run on Windows (probably not even with the new Linux support in > Windows 10). > > So maybe that needs to be more fine grained? Worded differently? Would replacing "products" with "applications" work? Since you consider KWin a systems component and not an application, this sentence should not be of concern to KWin, right? I mean sure, there are still some actual applications which make no sense on Windows or Mac, but I assume there are so few of those that we don't have to mention them explicitly in our vision. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Monday, May 23, 2016 6:05:26 PM CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Montag, 23. Mai 2016 17:03:11 CEST Martin Graesslin wrote: > > On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 11:43:12 PM CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > > I have created a survey draft at > > > http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en > > > > > > Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything that > > > you think should be changed. > > > > I have a problem with answering > > "...strive to make our products available on all major Free and > > proprietary > > operating systems and platforms" > > > > I'm all for making our apps available everywhere so would go very to the > > left, but for Plasma I would go very to the right. And thinking about it: > > not all products make sense everywhere. No matter how much I strive for > > it, > > KWin won't run on Windows (probably not even with the new Linux support in > > Windows 10). > > > > So maybe that needs to be more fine grained? Worded differently? > > Would replacing "products" with "applications" work? Since you consider KWin > a systems component and not an application, this sentence should not be of > concern to KWin, right? Yeah applications would solve this problem to me. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Montag, 23. Mai 2016 16:56:43 CEST Martin Graesslin wrote: > On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 11:43:12 PM CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > I have created a survey draft at > > http://survey.kde.org/index.php/858172/lang-en > > > > Now please everybody click through it and give feedback on anything that > > you think should be changed. > > I think the section "I consider myself as..." needs to be extended. I would > like us to get information about what people are contributing to. Maybe the > view of the world is different in various groups (e.g. Plasma devs and Kate > devs). Also I would like to figure out how active the people. > > So I suggest to include somthing like: > Last time contributed to KDE: > * this month > * during last three months > * during last half year > * during last year > * longer than a year ago > * longer than five years ago > > And add a free text field with: > Project you contribute most to: (e.g. Plasma, Kate, translations, visual > design, forums support, Wiki2Learn) > > Freetext as I think we have too many projects to make it a drop down. So > rather have people enter manually. I just realized that mentioning the specific project destroys anonymity for smaller projects. So this is what I've done now: 1. Reduced the options for the question "I consider myself as..." to ...an interested user of KDE software ...a (currently or formerly) active KDE contributor ...neither of the above 2. Added a new question "When was your most recent contribution (code, translation, design, community, promo, ...) to one of KDE's projects?" for those who indicated they are a currently or former contributor with the options: ( ) this month ( ) during the last six months ( ) during the last twelve months ( ) more than a year ago ( ) more than five years ago 3. Added another question for the contributors "Which category or categories of projects have you contributed to most recently?", multi-select, with the options [ ] Plasma [ ] Applications [ ] Frameworks [ ] Meta (sysadmin, web) I have not mentioned promo, vdg or community/support separately because their work is usually related to one of the project categories. Am I missing other functions which contribute to KDE's producs but do not relate to any of the categories above? ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
Hi, I'm just commenting on stuff which hasn't been mentioned somewhere else already... On Friday 20 May 2016 20:45:06 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Freitag, 20. Mai 2016 00:14:36 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote: ... > > Section "To promote the development of Free software in general" > > --- > > > > There's the option "...provide ... libraries which facilitate the > > development of ... Qt applications". > > Personally I agree with this point, but not necessarily as "promote ... > > Free software", but as a useful tool for developers, also for proprietary > > applications (... to pull also those developers into KDE). > > Can we make that somehow into a question ? > > Maybe > > "Should KDE libraries target mainly > > * free software developers > > * both free and proprietary software developers" ? > > The reason why I listed libraries only under that aspect is that I wanted to > make sure that all aspects of the mission relate to the vision. > > Is getting new contributors for our libraries (and by extension to KDE in > general) the reason why we make them available for proprietary applications > as well? > In that case, how does that relate to our vision? More contributors to our free libraries -> more and better free software -> more freedom. > > Misc > > > > > > * I'd like to have a point like "reliable, backwards compatible and > > stable" > > somewhere. Maybe in "How important are the following aspects" ? > > Ok, I can add that to the user experience point. > I'm not sure if "backwards compatible" is clear enough, though. Backwards > compatible regarding what? Data formats? > And what is the difference between "stable" and "reliable" in this regard? You don't need to add it literally. For me "reliable" includes more than just "not crashing". For me, it also means I can rely on that the software will be the there in the future, and that the software respects the time and effort users have put into learning it/working with it, and continues to work with the documents, configurations, scripts, etc. the users have created using the software, instead of requiring them to recreate documents from scratch, etc. > > * Would it make sense to have two additional levels, like "absolutely > > must" > > and "not at all, never" ? (I would consider many points very important, > > but > > a few exceptionally, absolutely must). > > Hm. I could change the labels for the extremes to "Not useful at all" and > "Essential". Not sure if the scale should be extended to 7, though. Do as you think. :-) > > * I'm not too happy with the "How should KDE treat Free vs. Proprietary > > OS" section. > > E.g. for Windows and OSX vs. Linux and FreeBSD I would say "equally", > > which > > translates to "make Windows and OSX first class targets" (while they are > > second class right now). > > OTOH, does Android count as Free or proprietary ? > > And, when asking focus on Android or Plasma Mobile, I would actually say > > getting KDE applications onto Android is more important, since that we > > millions of users can quickly benefit from all the advantages (freedom, > > control, etc.) KDE provides. > > Could the survey ask something like > > "How should KDE treat the following OS > > - Linux > > - FreeBSD > > - Other BSDs, Hurd, etc. > > - Windows > > - OSX > > - Mobile Linux (Mer, Plasma Mobile ?) > > - Android > > - did I forget something ? > > with the two options "important" and "not so important" > > This sounds like it's interesting to find out, but I'm not sure if it's the > right scope for the Mission. Do we really want the mission to be so detailed > that it mentions the importance of specific operating systems? I understand your point. But I still don't like the current question that much. E.g. I do agree that ideally Free OS should be used by everybody. But voting "Free OS are more important for KDE than proprietary" basically implies that e.g. Hurd is more important for KDE than Windows. But if we want to become more "relevant", then Windows is certainly more important than Hurd. After all, this is just a survey, not a poll. A conclusion like "Free OS should be the main focus" could be deduced from such a detailled question, while keeping the question itself mostly free of politics. > > * Related to the target OS, should there be a question something like > > "What do you consider more important for a KDE application running outside > > the Plasma desktop, e.g. on Windows, OSX, Android: > > - that it integrates well with other KDE applications on that platform and > > works as similar as possible to running under Plasma > > - that it integrates as good as possible with the desktop environment it > > is > > running in/it tries to fullfill the expections of users on that platform > > ?" > > Interesting question, but again: Should that be part of the Mission? > I'd like to keep this survey on the same level as we want the mission to
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
Hi, On Sunday 22 May 2016 19:29:22 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Sonntag, 22. Mai 2016 15:38:39 CEST Agustin Benito (toscalix) wrote: > > One of our historical problems, in my opinion, has been our little > > engagement with the "commercial world". Words can help or holding us > > back from turning up side down our current situation. > > > > Two examples: > > > > I consider the word "support" controversial. Support in commercial > > environments has a specific meaning. It is related with paid service. > > I would use a different word. > > How about "compatibility with"? > > > The other word is "product". > > > > I understand that Open Source projects, and we are no exception, have > > a bigger and better "end to end" conscious. That is good. Still, there > > are several stages of what the commercial world understands as > > "product cycle" we do not cover. The motivation for creating > > "products" is also different, so the expected outcome. > > > > I would use a different word in the Mission statement. > > For me, using the word "product" is very important especially in the Mission > statement. Yes, we currently do not treat what we make as "products", and I > think that is a problem. > If there are stages of a product life-cycle we do not cover, than chances > are that we _should_. Thinking in terms of products would remind us that we > should think about quality, about bringing our products to market or about > handling "end of life" properly. I think this is related to my "reliability" point. > This is one area where I think KDE is not "professional" enough, and it > would be helpful especially for a better relationship with the "commercial > world" if we improved that. > > > ++ KDE and Qt > > > > I think we should try to better reflect the aim that KDE has to become > > even more relevant in the Qt ecosystem, and how important it is to us. > > I read two references in the current draft: > > > > * "strives to make our products available on all major Free and > > proprietary operating systems and platforms, for example by applying > > Qt as a technology that allows easy portability" > > * "provides frameworks and libraries which facilitate the development > > of high-quality Qt applications" > > > > I would remove both references. > > > > The first one is irrelevant. In the same way that we mentioned Qt we > > could have mentioned any other technology. In a mission statement > > every word counts. In fact, I think that in general we have too many > > already. It is not easy, I understand. > > I had put that in because in the Vision discussion, several participants > expressed their fear that KDE might be losing its focus on Qt, so I wanted > to make clear that Qt is still very important to us and we are still very > important for Qt. > Since the survey is there to find out what the majority of the community > thinks, though, maybe I should add another question > "Should a focus on Qt be stated in our Mission?" > Then we find out what the community thinks. Yes. > > The second one reduces our scope. I thought we agreed on being a host > > for different projects. It seems here that if it is not a Qt based > > app > > We do host many different projects and they do not necessarily have to be > Qt- based, but do we want to host non-Qt _libraries_ as well? just my POV: hosting everything which is part of our "mission" or which supports our mission is perfectly Ok. I.e. of course KDE frameworks, but that office-related library which was mentioned recently obviously supports our mission (calligra), even if it is not Qt-based. > > I would write instead a sentence that reflects the position within the > > Qt ecosystem we want to play and how important it is to us. > > Suggestions for how to phrase such a question are welcome! I'm also curious about what Agustin has in mind... Maybe something like: * KDE should try to become the go-to provider of Qt-based libraries for both free and proprietary software developers. OR * KDE should try to become the go-to provider of Qt-based libraries for both free software developers. OR * KDE should provide applications, libraries are just a by-product. Maybe ? > > ++ "classic desktop" > > > > We have suffered the last few years from having two different visions > > within our community on what desktop means/is. Going through the > > process of redefining the strategy should serve to solve these kind of > > fundamental issues. > > > > When I read the mission, I understand that we have used a "political > > way" to provide satisfaction to both views. In that regard, these two > > points: > > > > * aims for a presence on all relevant device classes (desktop, mobile, > > embedded) * offers a "classic desktop" product which makes the switch from > > other popular operating systems easy > > > > do the job very well. > > > > I question though that this is the way to go. We should focus on > > solving this issue and state the consensus clear
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
Hi, On 23 May 2016 at 19:28, Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > 3. Added another question for the contributors "Which category or categories > of projects have you contributed to most recently?", multi-select, with the > options > [ ] Plasma > [ ] Applications > [ ] Frameworks > [ ] Meta (sysadmin, web) > > I have not mentioned promo, vdg or community/support separately because their > work is usually related to one of the project categories. Am I missing other > functions which contribute to KDE's producs but do not relate to any of the > categories above? I am not sure how most WikiToLearn guys would reply here: are we meta? We have, roughly developers, infrastructure administrators, organizers, promo team and content writers. We do a very different job than documenters, translators or other generic KDE meta people. Then, why Plasma has its own box, isn't it an application? I would say you should be identified with the skills you apply, which better reflect the nature of our community: programmer, designer, promoter, syadmin, translator... Bye, -Riccardo -- Pace Peace Paix Paz Frieden Pax Pokój Friður Fred Béke 和平 Hasiti Lapé Hetep Malu Mир Wolakota Santiphap Irini Peoch שלום Shanti Vrede Baris Rój Mír Taika Rongo Sulh Mir Py'guapy 평화 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Dienstag, 24. Mai 2016 01:01:13 CEST Riccardo Iaconelli wrote: > Hi, > > On 23 May 2016 at 19:28, Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > 3. Added another question for the contributors "Which category or > > categories of projects have you contributed to most recently?", > > multi-select, with the options > > [ ] Plasma > > [ ] Applications > > [ ] Frameworks > > [ ] Meta (sysadmin, web) > > > > I have not mentioned promo, vdg or community/support separately because > > their work is usually related to one of the project categories. Am I > > missing other functions which contribute to KDE's producs but do not > > relate to any of the categories above? > > I am not sure how most WikiToLearn guys would reply here: are we meta? > We have, roughly developers, infrastructure administrators, > organizers, promo team and content writers. We do a very different job > than documenters, translators or other generic KDE meta people. Then, > why Plasma has its own box, isn't it an application? You are right, I completely forgot WikiToLearn here! Are there more projects which do not belong in any of these categories, but isn't "meta" either? The reason why Plasma is mentioned separately (and WikiToLearn should be, too) is that it might be more important what Plasma contributors think about desktop matters than what those not contributing to it think. On the other hand, regarding issues like which platforms we want _applications_ to run on, the voice of someone who only contributes to Plasma or WikiToLearn might not be as important as the voice of someone who actually contributes to applications. Of course we want a vision for all of KDE, but our "who does the work, decides" mantra should not be falling behind there. > I would say you should be identified with the skills you apply, which > better reflect the nature of our community: programmer, designer, > promoter, syadmin, translator... The problem here is that the groups for some roles are too small to guarantee anonymity. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On 16.06.2016 13:32, sabayon11 wrote: Very interesting survey. I found some issues very controversial. > ...reach as many users as possible, regardless of which operating systems, applications or services they currently use I say no, focus on quality. Be realistic. Don't take to much on your plate. Be aware that the Mission is not a short-term plan, it is supposed to guide our work for years to come. > ...convince users to switch away from proprietary software and services in general How are you going to convince? Marketing? If quality and useability of KDE software is fine they will switch by themeselves. No earlier I guess. Good quality is of course a necessary requirement for convincing users, but they also have to be aware of it. > ...use new online services created by KDE for areas where no freedom- and privacy-respecting services exist > ...offer our own web-based products / services Is KDE financialy capable of doing it? Has KDE other necessarry resources to accomplish it? Will KDE users sponsor it or pay for it? Will you make it commercial service? WikiToLearn ( http://wikitolearn.org/ ), for example, is a very successful web-based KDE product. They have acquired their own sponsors for infrastructure, which will probably be a must for any web-based product at some point. So yes, it is possible, but probably not with the servers KDE has alone. > ...aim for a presence on mobile devices (e.g. smartphones and tablets) > ...aim for a presence on embedded devices (e.g. in-vehicle (entertainment) systems, smart TVs, smart home or machine control panels) Do you really think that KDE can compete with Android or iOS? Or is it a wishfull thinking only (dream on). Nobody said that being a direct competitor for Android or iOS would be our goal. 1. KDE is _not_ the desktop, it is the community which also makes applications. We already have a presence on Android devices in the form of KDE Connect, KAlgebra and Behaim Globe, and there are several more KDE applications for Android in the works. Being present on smartphones does not mean beating Android or iOS 2. There is Plasma Mobile. Its goal is not to dominate the mobile market any time soon, but that does not mean there are no valid usecases for installing it (for example for people or organizations who need better privacy and security protection that Android or iOS can offer them) Aiming for a presence on a platform is not the same as trying to replace dominant OSes. Plasma is installed on only a tiny fraction of desktop PCs. Does that mean we don't have a presence there? > ...adopt current and emerging user interface trends (e.g. mobile/desktop convergence, conversation-based user interfaces, ...) Are you capable of doing it in the first place? Do you have resources? We are capable of doing it. We have Plasma, which already has the capability for being used as a convergent desktop, and we have Kirigami, a framework which is made for convergent applications. We do not have much technology for conversion-based user interfaces, but since we're in the FOSS world, we could laverage technologies such as Mycroft. > ...treat all applications equally, regardless of whether they are for common or niche tasks Quality of Plasma - quickly fixing bugs, providing new features proposed by users, basic features of desktop should be a priority. Next utilities. At the moment I don't use for example Korganizer because some parts of it are not developed and are useless (Kjots, Tasks). This is a survey, in order to find out what the community wants to focus on, and what our users would like us to focus on. We will see what comes out of it. > Business/ office users Is KDE capable of doing it? If yes, in what areas? Be realistic. Is KDE office suit capable of replacing MS Office or even LibreOffice? Does it offer advanced features like group work? Be realistic. 1. Again: The survey is for helping us decide what to _focus_ on. If we decide to focus on business users, then of course we have to invest more of our energy into business applications. 2. Why should users not use KDE software in conjunction with LibreOffice? It's not like we can only be relevant if people use _exclusively_ our software. I have the impression that this question reflect that KDE developers have big ambitions. But keep in mind that you need to have resources. KDE itself is a niche desktop invironment. Focus on basics and if this is fullfilled go further. See above: The Mission is not our short-term strategy. I am only an ordinary user. I want the basic features of desktop environment to function properly without bugs. At the moment not all features of KDE 4 has been implemented. That is fine, of course, and understandable. Thank you for your feedback! ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 5:00 AM, wrote: > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:38:54 +0200 > From: Thomas Pfeiffer > > On 16.06.2016 13:32, sabayon11 wrote: >> Very interesting survey. I found some issues very controversial. >> >> > ...reach as many users as possible, regardless of which operating systems, >> applications or services they currently use >> >> I say no, focus on quality. Be realistic. Don't take to much on your plate. Just to echo Thomas, ensuring high quality is of course a noble endeavor, and one that the community will no doubt pursue alongside its ongoing effort, but it is not an over-arching mission in and of itself. Ensure quality, while pursuing . >> > ...use new online services created by KDE for areas where no freedom- and >> privacy-respecting services exist >> > ...offer our own web-based products / services >> >> Is KDE financialy capable of doing it? Has KDE other necessarry resources to >> accomplish it? Will KDE users sponsor it or pay for it? Will you make it >> commercial service? > > WikiToLearn ( http://wikitolearn.org/ ), for example, is a very successful > web-based KDE product. They have acquired their own sponsors for > infrastructure, > which will probably be a must for any web-based product at some point. So yes, > it is possible, but probably not with the servers KDE has alone. While I suppose not necessarily a "KDE product," I thought the showcase here might have been Owncloud/ Nextcloud. With FOSS, I'm not sure where/how dividing lines are drawn. Certainly, Nextcloud is friendly and outreaches to the KDE community. Furthermore, they have had significant success towards the goal "privacy-respecting web-based services," and as Owncloud, they have had the financial resources to continue growth. Again, not sure whether or not this is "KDE," but I don't think the label matters as much as the inter-project collaboration. > Thank you for your feedback! Also, I just want to thank Thomas and other members of kde-community that sponsored this survey. In my opinion, the survey questions were very well thought out, the overall goal was very clear and extremely useful. I was very impressed. I'm sure we will learn a lot. Thank you! ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] KDE Mission - let's do this! : Feedback on survey draft
On 19.06.2016 20:19, Jeff Dooley wrote: Just to echo Thomas, ensuring high quality is of course a noble > endeavor, and one that the community will no doubt pursue alongside > its ongoing effort, but it is not an over-arching mission in and of > itself. Ensure quality, while pursuing . Yup, I couldn't have said it any better :) ...use new online services created by KDE for areas where no freedom- and >>> privacy-respecting services exist ...offer our own web-based products / services >>> >>> Is KDE financialy capable of doing it? Has KDE other necessarry >>> resources to accomplish it? Will KDE users sponsor it or pay for >>> it? Will you make it commercial service? >> >> WikiToLearn ( http://wikitolearn.org/ ), for example, is a very >> successful web-based KDE product. They have acquired their own >> sponsors for infrastructure, which will probably be a must for any >> web-based product at some point. So yes, it is possible, but >> probably not with the servers KDE has alone. > > While I suppose not necessarily a "KDE product," I thought the > showcase here might have been Owncloud/ Nextcloud. With FOSS, I'm > not sure where/how dividing lines are drawn. Certainly, Nextcloud is > friendly and outreaches to the KDE community. Furthermore, they have > had significant success towards the goal "privacy-respecting > web-based services," and as Owncloud, they have had the financial > resources to continue growth. Again, not sure whether or not this is > "KDE," but I don't think the label matters as much as the > inter-project collaboration. I chose WikiToLearn as example instead of own-/Nextcloud simply to avoid any "but it's not a KDE project!" nitpicking, but it is of course an excellent example of a very successful FOSS web service which was born out of KDE. And of course with both the nasty venture capital and the CLA out of the way, now there is the chance for very close collaboration between KDE and Nextcloud! Thank you for your feedback! > > Also, I just want to thank Thomas and other members of kde-community > that sponsored this survey. In my opinion, the survey questions were > very well thought out, the overall goal was very clear and extremely > useful. I was very impressed. I'm sure we will learn a lot. Thank > you! You are welcome! I'm glad it shows that online studies have been part of my job for the last five years :) ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
