KR> Suburu engines - something to consider
Torque reaction is common in any reciprocating system. Generally speaking, you get torque reaction when the rotating mass is changing velocity (applying throttle would be an example). I am more familiar with high performance cars and motorcycles, but the energy (torque) has to have something to react against, usually a fixed, stationary object (like the ground). If one were to apply throttle aggressively, but gradually, torque can be managed. If the system is at max RPM and has stabilized, torque reaction should be controllable) P-factor anyone? [Yeah I know, gyroscopic issues apply here too... aren't airplanes fun?] JMHO Mark W N952MW -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Teate, Stephen Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 10:37 AM To: KRnet Subject: RE: KR> Suburu engines - something to consider "This is an obvious attempt at humor or Mike is smoking something. An R-985 on a KR 2? Yea, right." I didn't even think about the humor angle Larry and I hope you are right. I will never believe that my Sube will ever cause a torque issue as the .org/info.html
KR> Torque Roll
Anyone who has done some searching on the net for KRs knows that there are several airplanes - antiques and such -that use the letters "KR" in their model names - and are completely different than the little Ken Rand homebuilt airplanes. Some have some pretty big engines where torque roll discussions are probably appropriate. Ed - Original Message - From: "Phillip Matheson" To: "KRnet" Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 3:52 PM Subject: Re: KR> Torque Roll I have a standard KR2 with 100 HP with 1.6: 1 belt drive. 60 inch blade prop and NEVER experienced at problem after take off. She fly's like nothing else. Beautiful. The only problem is keeping her straight with full Right rudder plus R brake till about 20 to 25 knots due to that extra torque. Phil Matheson SAAA Ch. 20 http://www.saaa20.org/ VH-PKR Australia EMAIL: phillipmathe...@bigpond.com KR Web Page: www.philskr2.50megs.com --- Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Torque Roll
I have a standard KR2 with 100 HP with 1.6: 1 belt drive. 60 inch blade prop and NEVER experienced at problem after take off. She fly's like nothing else. Beautiful. The only problem is keeping her straight with full Right rudder plus R brake till about 20 to 25 knots due to that extra torque. Phil Matheson SAAA Ch. 20 http://www.saaa20.org/ VH-PKR Australia EMAIL: phillipmathe...@bigpond.com KR Web Page: www.philskr2.50megs.com --- Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Suburu engines - something to consider
The other thing to consider too, is that at first it might seem cheaper, but when you are done with it all, the Subie will cost you more than Vair. I've heard anything from 12K to 15K if you are buying a PSRU and doing most the other work yourself. And don't forget, just because it has radiators to cool it doesn't mean it's that simple. Talk to Eggenfeller about the teething issues they had trying to cool their Subie for the RV. Unless you are willing to spend the effort and time to figure it all out. you are better off with the Vair, or VW. Fred Johnson Reno, NV In a message dated 7/9/2009 8:36:10 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ste...@compositecooling.com writes: Now as far as Subes being more efficient or economical than Vairs you need to try to compare apples to apples
KR> Hanger doors
I've built two of these types of doors for my hangars, although mine were home built from plans and locally purchased parts. The first is 40' wide by 9'6" tall and the second is 48' wide by 10'6" tall. Both are quick to roll up and down for quick, easy access to my planes and plenty stout to withstand the spring winds. For those that were at the Perry, OK gatherings, many of the hangar doors there were also similar design, which is where I got the plans to build mine. -Jeff Scott Los Alamos, NM -- Original Message -- I found this on hanger doors in case someone else is interested. http://ultimatedoor.homestead.com/ultimate.html Regards, Myron (Dan) Freeman I Victim of medical malpractice? Click here to find an expert lawyer to help pursue your case. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTOiLPBZtV8xRujEq4KEwfRc5vwKOKZnT9FareQRDgNXCQIHaBAQVa/
KR> Suburu engines - something to consider
So basically what im getting out of most people is that the Vair is better in the long run as far as torque and power vs. weight and power. Subes might be fine if I was just chugging around the southwest but I planned on long distance. Thanks for all your opinions and links to help my decision. David Swanson Tucson AZ. In a message dated 7/9/2009 8:36:10 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ste...@compositecooling.com writes: Now as far as Subes being more efficient or economical than Vairs you need to try to compare apples to apples. If you are talking about a stock direct drive Subaru (not common) compared to a stock direct drive Corvair (common) I would say the Corvair would win out on the horse power, but much more importantly the torque value. Nothing wrong with the Sube it is just a fundamental design issue. The smaller displacement Sube was designed to create its power at a higher RPM outside the range of efficiency for aircraft propellers. This is why most but not all Subes use redrives. They allow the engine to generate its power at its rated RPM and the redrive allows the prop to operate in the range that it needs to. Now your power goes up, but so does your fuel burn but again and much more importantly your torque goes way up depending on your redrive ratio. There is also a weight penalty that must be paid for both liquid cooling and a redrive. ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html **Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove0003)
KR> Hanger doors
I found this on hanger doors in case someone else is interested. http://ultimatedoor.homestead.com/ultimate.html Regards, Myron (Dan) Freeman Indpls, Ind. 46203-3570 Home of the Indy 500, the World's most famous auto race. mfreem...@indy.rr.com Check out and join the the Independence Caucus to help save America from treason http://www.ourcaucus.com/index.html? ?
KR> Oshkosh
Dave, I know of five KRSuper2 builders that will be at Oshkosh. I think all are planning on using the Corvair. They are myself, Chris Anderson, Paul Fincato, David McCauley and Ted Sanders. Scott Watts can not make it this year, but passed these names on to me. Let us meet at the KR Forum on Monday and compare notes afterward. Bring Pictures of your progress!! Are there any other KRSuper2 builders going to Oshkosh? Anyone else interested in talking with us? I am planning on taking lots of pictures of engine installations. I was at Corvair college #13, it was a blast. Mark from Falcon was there and was a great hands on help. I got my case closed up and have since installed my Dan 5th bearing. See you soon, Greg On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Dave McCauley wrote: > I'm going to a 1 day Corvair College in Madison of Sunday, July 26 and will > be in Oshkosh for june one day - Monday, July 27. Will be at the 1PM KR > forum, hoping to meet KR builders. I'm building a KRSuper2. > > >
KR> Instrument panel thickness
Hi all, I'm starting to build the instrument panel. Of course, there are always questions that pops up, where the answer is dependant on a lot of variables. I plan to build the panel from 3mm (might be 2.8, I'm not sure) plywood, and I need to know what thickness is required to ensure the panel will be stiff enough. I understand that it is firstly important to know WHAT will be installed. Well, I'm very much in the steam-age regarding my instruments, so they are heavier than the nice electronic gadgets one can buy. Should I stick 2 plies together, or will one be enough? Regards. JC JC Marais Centurion South Africa 082-401-5259 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.2/2215 - Release Date: 07/08/09 05:53:00
KR> Suburu engines - something to consider
"This is an obvious attempt at humor or Mike is smoking something. An R-985 on a KR 2? Yea, right." I didn't even think about the humor angle Larry and I hope you are right. I will never believe that my Sube will ever cause a torque issue as the vast majority of my trailing edges is made up of aileron. But I will say that anyone putting more than 130 HP into a KR should really rethink it. Blasphemy I know cause you can never have to much power! But in my opinion you are beginning to exceed the power that the airframe can effectivly use. Going to more power is only going to increase your climb and fuel burn. Your increase in speed is not going to be significant. Now as far as Subes being more efficient or economical than Vairs you need to try to compare apples to apples. If you are talking about a stock direct drive Subaru (not common) compared to a stock direct drive Corvair (common) I would say the Corvair would win out on the horse power, but much more importantly the torque value. Nothing wrong with the Sube it is just a fundamental design issue. The smaller displacement Sube was designed to create its power at a higher RPM outside the range of efficiency for aircraft propellers. This is why most but not all Subes use redrives. They allow the engine to generate its power at its rated RPM and the redrive allows the prop to operate in the range that it needs to. Now your power goes up, but so does your fuel burn but again and much more importantly your torque goes way up depending on your redrive ratio. There is also a weight penalty that must be paid for both liquid cooling and a redrive. I hope to finish the painting of my airframe in the next couple of weeks and then I will be able to concentrate on my engine installation. I have seen the weight numbers quoted for the Corvairs and I am looking forward to seeing how my installation will compare. Stephen Teate Paradise, Texas
KR> Suburu engines - something to consider
[quote] I would have to say an engine that weighs more than the aircraft itself is very unlikely. Not to mention how would one build a KR with enough ground clearance for that 10 foot prop an R-985 has to swing? Kind of reminds me of the Gee Bee Racer. ?Regards, Myron (Dan) Freeman Indpls, Ind. 46203-3570 Home of the Indy 500, the World's most famous auto race. mfreem...@indy.rr.com Check out and join the the Independence Caucus to help save America from treason http://www.ourcaucus.com/index.html? ?
KR> Suburu engines - something to consider
I would have to say an engine that weighs more than the aircraft itself is very unlikely. Not to mention how would one build a KR with enough ground clearance for that 10 foot prop an R-985 has to swing? My guess is it is some sort of typo on Wiki. A P&W R-985 weighs in at something around 650 to 700 pounds, which is more than most the flying KR's with their engines combined. On top of that, it produces 450 HP which is way more than A KR is capable of handling. And anyone STUPID enough to try that deserves to be buried with that combination if you ask me.. Of course these are just my opinions, yada, yada yada Fred Johnson Reno, NV JC wrote: Hi, interesting, on Wiki it is mentioned that the R-985 is used on the KR-range of experimentals.
KR> Suburu engines - something to consider
Hi, interesting, on Wiki it is mentioned that the R-985 is used on the KR-range of experimentals. Regards. JC Disclaimer; Yada yada yada... -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Larry&Sallie Flesner Sent: 09 July 2009 14:22 To: KRnet Subject: KR> Suburu engines - something to consider At 01:18 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: >Probably the biggest reason to avoid higher-powered engines in KR's is >the problem with immediate and fatal torque rolls once the wheels leave >the runway Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.2/2215 - Release Date: 07/09/09 05:55:00
KR> Suburu engines - something to consider
At 01:18 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: >Probably the biggest reason to avoid higher-powered engines in KR's is >the problem with immediate and fatal torque rolls once the wheels leave >the runway. > Among those first fatalities was Homer Didit of Mena, Arkansas >who put that R-985 in his KR-2. He only made the one flight and augered >in on takeoff. > >And what about that fellow with the turbine KR? I haven't seen or heard >about it for quite some time now. Torque roll on takeoff? >Mike > This is an obvious attempt at humor or Mike is smoking something. An R-985 on a KR 2? Yea, right. There is no torque roll problem on any KR that I've ever heard of and I know there have been KR's flown with at least 130 HP. KR's with Corvair's are not "auguring in" on takeoff, my 0-200 powered KR does not experience uneven tire wear, a turbine KR has flown just fine, yada, yada, yada. I will give you an A+ for imagination but you really ought to put a disclaimer somewhere in your e-mail as there may be some on the net that take your humor seriously. Larry Flesner
KR> Suburu engines - something to consider
I have built up a small but complete flight testing regime on two different KR-2's and have never had anything remotely like a torque induced tendency to roll. Both of my planes have extra engine. One is a Subaru, and it is as tame and gentle as a little girl, the other has a Saturn engine and it is wild with a mountain of extra power and speed but no tendency to roll on take off or any other time. Seems to me that it should have been noticed by now. What do people think of the high torque from an O-200, then? Interested in comments Jim James E. Sellars, B.A., (Econ.), CFP International Financial Planner Keybase Financial Group Inc. 120 Queen St, Moncton, N.-B. Canada E1C-1K7 Phone: (506) 856-7977 | Fax: (506) 859-8504 Email: jsell...@wealthmanagementcanada.com jsell...@keybase.com Web: www.WealthManagementCanada.com -Original Message- From: laser...@juno.com [mailto:laser...@juno.com] Sent: July 9, 2009 3:19 AM To: kr...@mylist.net Subject: KR> Suburu engines - something to consider Probably the biggest reason to avoid higher-powered engines in KR's is the problem with immediate and fatal torque rolls once the wheels leave the runway. Using a PSRU with a Suburu and its extra torque this tendency would even be worse. When KR's just had VW's, torque rolls after takeoff were not a serious problem, but once the horsepower started to go up, the fatal torque rolls started. Among those first fatalities was Homer Didit of Mena, Arkansas who put that R-985 in his KR-2. He only made the one flight and augered in on takeoff. And what about that fellow with the turbine KR? I haven't seen or heard about it for quite some time now. Torque roll on takeoff? I never see this phennomenon discussed on these forums. Is it something we just don't like to talk about? The 300 lb. gorilla sitting in the corner? I think it's time people gave this deadly KR quirk some attention so that new pilots won't be caught unawares when they push that throttle forward. I'm sure the Corvair people will correct me if I'm wrong, but seems like there have been a flock of KR's with Corvair six cylinder engines that torque-rolled in - pulling it off too soon with full throttle. Torque-roll. Boom. Smoke. There's just too much temptation to firewall the throttle and try and show off with a vertical climb when you have all that power available. Remember, these planes are made of styrofoam. Hanging a huge engine on the front is just asking for trouble. What got me started on this train of throught was that I've always wondered why one of my tires wears out before the other one. Landing on one tire more than the other would explain it, except at my home field the normal crosswind would favor wearing out the tire on the upwind side, not the one that actually wears. The difference is not great, but it's noticable and consistent. It wasn't until I came across this piece by John Deakin in his column Pelican's Perch on Avweb that I realized what is happening. "But in something like the Bearcat, the power is much higher, the torque is correspondingly greater, and the wings are shorter, giving less leverage. I assure you, the roll is there, and it's very noticeable. Left tires wear out much sooner on the Bear." Since our engines mostly turn to the left, our tires wear out on the other side - the right side. Even with our puny little engines (compared to the warbirds the article is about), there is enough of a difference over time to wear out the right tire more than the left one. And so another mystery is solved. Mike Deakin's articles are really a wealth of good info on many aviation topics, for those who haven't yet come across him. http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182146-1.html Do it right the first time. Click to find contractors to work on your home improvement project. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTJuto6rnBOmCgGYlS13zPERXEr fpZvzqKPxXRaRJf1ceV3ih9bfTS/ ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Subaru more ruel efficient than Corvair?
I do believe that the Sube will runs more economically then the 'vair up to a point. The extra weight will require more fuel to pull the plane through the air and depending on the engine and the amount of power it's putting out, it will probably turn out fairly equally. On a related note regarding the torque roll issue. There is a reason most agencies require an additional rating to aircraft with engines over a certain horse power rating. It's also somewhat of an eye opener to research how many novice pilots lost their lives to incorrect throttle procedure on take off training or flying during the war. Cheers. Peter Bancks. Dan Heath wrote: > Isn't the Subaru, water cooled? Water cooled engines will run much more > economically than will air cooled. Air cooled engines use air, oil, and > fuel to keep them cool. So I have heard. > > See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics > See you at the 2009 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Ill > There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for Flying > has begun. > Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC >
KR> Subaru more ruel efficient than Corvair?
Isn't the Subaru, water cooled? Water cooled engines will run much more economically than will air cooled. Air cooled engines use air, oil, and fuel to keep them cool. So I have heard. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2009 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Ill There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for Flying has begun. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC -Original Message- So are Subaru's OR can Subaru's be more powerful and more economical than Corvair's?
