KR> Happy new year
Happy new year everyone, http://s449.photobucket.com/user/rkpsk1/library/ Robert Pesak
KR> They don't have varnish
At 03:44 PM 1/1/2014, you wrote: >I have also used FPL-16A thinned with lacquer thinner as a varnish >and it also works great. + FPL-16A is good stuff. All my wood bonding was done with FPL-16A. It is highly rated by Forest Products Laboratory. All my test pieces broke wood and not glue joints, some breaking right across the joint at an angle with the bond still holding. For an ultimate test I coated regular pine stock with FPL-16A, let it cure to a shine, then glued those two pieces together without scuffing. That test also broke wood with the joint intact. Us small amount of flox if joint has a small gap or on a vertical joint where epoxy may tend to run. Also, on an epoxy joint, don't put so much pressure on the joint that you squeeze out all the glue. There are other glues that require a very tight fit with lots of pressure, but not with epoxy. Only down side, if it can be considered a downside, is that the epoxy is white and may look more "sloppy" than a joint that cures "clear". That's the primary reason I painted my interior. Larry Flesner
KR> Sealers and UV protection
Almost hate to chime in as my question isn't KR related, but there has to be others like me that find the KR site the most informative out there. So... When sealing wood that fabric will later be glued down to, is there anything I should look out for? I assume I should scuff the varnished/poly/epoxy surface where the glue will be applied to help with adhesion. Thanks Kevin Golden Harrisonville, MO Streak Shadow. In a message dated 1/1/2014 1:43:07 P.M. Central Standard Time, kr2owner at gmail.com writes: Hello fellow enthusiasts This "info" session seems to have invokef some passionate responses. Many things can be used to seal wood adequately from airborn moisture. There is a UV additive available in body shop supply (not auto part ) stores. It is not cheap but very little is required and the protection can not be beat. So many opinions and ways of doing the job are out there that we need to express what we know without discounting others knowledge unless we know something is a dangerous practice. I have been involved with homebuilt aircraft including working with a NASA engineer on a glider for iver 30 years but still need ti be open to learning. Live well...fly safe...build conservatively. Doran Jaffas N 186 RC ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options
KR> They don't have varnish
FPL-16A, also known as "Hughes Glue", is the granddaddy of all epoxies used in aircraft applications. FPL-16A has lacquer thinner as one of its component parts. See Forest Products Laboratories report: Olson & Blomquist; 1962; "Epoxy resin adhesives for gluing wood"; Forest Prod. J. 12(2), pages 74-80 Poly-Fiber "varnish", used on wood structure under their fabric covering, is two-part epoxy. It always has been, since Ray Stits developed his covering system way back when. The epoxy formulation is necessary to resist the MEK in the liquid components of the coatings. Poly-Fiber also sells a polyurethane "varnish". But... If you cover a certified airplane with Poly-Fiber, the STC (SA1008WE) states that the procedures in Poly-Fiber Covering Procedure Manual #1 must be followed in order to maintain certification. The manual specifically states to use Poly-Fiber EV-400 Epoxy Varnish with EV410 catalyst. The polyurethane product is not mentioned and is therefore not legal to use on a certified airplane using the Poly-Fiber covering process. The STC for Poly-Fiber covering products is good for just about all pre-war Aeroncas, Pipers and Citabrias/Decathlons with wood spars, Stearmans, Beech Staggerwings, Howards, Taylorcrafts, Monocoupe 90s, a number of Wacos, Fairchilds, Mooney Mites, and a large number of wooden gliders, along with many other types. I've used Polyfiber varnish on a number of homebuilts and restorations and it has worked great. I have also used FPL-16A thinned with lacquer thinner as a varnish and it also works great. When it is scuffed in areas where the surface will be bonded to another component, the bond is extremely strong, proven by making test coupons with every batch of epoxy that is mixed and used, including the varnish coat. That's probably because the stuff I used to bond the parts together is the same stuff as the varnish - as in Mark's suggestion about using laminating resin for "varnish". I've been involved in aviation for over 40 years and some of my work is on display in museums. Your boat may sink but "my" airplanes are still flying. It's perfectly fine if you do things your own way, but I've proven to myself what works for me, and I've seen that epoxy works for people who know a lot more about epoxies, chemistry, and airplanes than I do. Chris On 1/1/2014 9:26 AM, Timothy Witmer wrote: > Epoxy soaked glass is great !!! Glass gives it all strength it needs. But > epoxy alone is somewhat brittle be reduced other than acetone. It > looses all its properties. Maximum water resistance is not achieved with > epoxy alone. Its always mixed with another agent ( like paint ) best of > both worlds > On Jan 1, 2014 11:15 AM, "Mark Langford" wrote: > >> Timothy Witmer wrote: >> >> Or all the boats would SINK !!! SPAR VARNISH OR POLYURETHANE GUYS ! >>> SINK OR >>> SWIM ..OTHERWISE !!! >>> >> Hmmm, we've been coating KR wooden structure with epoxy-soaked glass, and >> coating the insides with epoxy for years, but I guess they were all wrong, >> and all those KRs that have been flying for 40 years are lucky to have >> survived. I suppose I'll just torch this one, and build a new one using >> spar varnish instead! I sure am glad I was enlightened before I flew this >> dangerous thing... >> >> Mark Langford >> ML at N56ML.com >> website at http://www.N56ML.com >> >> >> >> ___ >> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. >> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org >> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change >> options >> > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options > > >
KR> Sealers and UV protection
Hello fellow enthusiasts This "info" session seems to have invokef some passionate responses. Many things can be used to seal wood adequately from airborn moisture. There is a UV additive available in body shop supply (not auto part ) stores. It is not cheap but very little is required and the protection can not be beat. So many opinions and ways of doing the job are out there that we need to express what we know without discounting others knowledge unless we know something is a dangerous practice. I have been involved with homebuilt aircraft including working with a NASA engineer on a glider for iver 30 years but still need ti be open to learning. Live well...fly safe...build conservatively. Doran Jaffas N 186 RC
KR> They don't have varnish
Epoxy soaked glass is great !!! Glass gives it all strength it needs. But epoxy alone is somewhat brittle be reduced other than acetone. It looses all its properties. Maximum water resistance is not achieved with epoxy alone. Its always mixed with another agent ( like paint ) best of both worlds On Jan 1, 2014 11:15 AM, "Mark Langford" wrote: > Timothy Witmer wrote: > > Or all the boats would SINK !!! SPAR VARNISH OR POLYURETHANE GUYS ! >> SINK OR >> SWIM ..OTHERWISE !!! >> > > Hmmm, we've been coating KR wooden structure with epoxy-soaked glass, and > coating the insides with epoxy for years, but I guess they were all wrong, > and all those KRs that have been flying for 40 years are lucky to have > survived. I suppose I'll just torch this one, and build a new one using > spar varnish instead! I sure am glad I was enlightened before I flew this > dangerous thing... > > Mark Langford > ML at N56ML.com > website at http://www.N56ML.com > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options >
KR> They don't have varnish
Always coat textured ( auto trunk spray) with a clear(aerosol ok ) cause almost all trunk spray is WATER Soluable . Make sure u wait 48 hrs before clear coating to let paint dry completly On Jan 1, 2014 10:44 AM, "Larry Flesner" wrote: > > N891JF had no epoxy, urethane, or varnish of any kind inside the cabin. >> > > > I finished the inside of my "boat' with grey paint ( spray can) > http://myplace.frontier.com/~flesner/02092590.jpg > > and then added a light coat of the "textured" paint in the cockpit area. > http://myplace.frontier.com/~flesner/02092591.jpg > > Follow directions on the "textured" paint can or you can end up with a > mess. Don't ask me how I know. :-) > > KR's are not airplanes that can be left to set out in weather. The MUST > be hangared. The only real moisture problem they should be exposed to > would be an unheated hangar in the spring when the cold cement floor > condenses moisture from warm, damp, spring air. That can really get nasty. > I've seen water on the bottom surfaces of the Tripacer that looked like a > pitcher of iced tea in the summertime. If heat is not available, having > several fans running to keep the air circulating can help considerably. > > Larry Flesner > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options >
KR> They don't have varnish
>N891JF had no epoxy, urethane, or varnish of any kind inside the cabin. I finished the inside of my "boat' with grey paint ( spray can) http://myplace.frontier.com/~flesner/02092590.jpg and then added a light coat of the "textured" paint in the cockpit area. http://myplace.frontier.com/~flesner/02092591.jpg Follow directions on the "textured" paint can or you can end up with a mess. Don't ask me how I know. :-) KR's are not airplanes that can be left to set out in weather. The MUST be hangared. The only real moisture problem they should be exposed to would be an unheated hangar in the spring when the cold cement floor condenses moisture from warm, damp, spring air. That can really get nasty. I've seen water on the bottom surfaces of the Tripacer that looked like a pitcher of iced tea in the summertime. If heat is not available, having several fans running to keep the air circulating can help considerably. Larry Flesner
KR> They don't have varnish
Lacquer thinner NO Acetone yes but very very little. !! After working in the fibergass Industry for decades i can tell u fibergass resin is the next worst thing besides latex paint to coat wood !!! Or all the boats would SINK !!! SPAR VARNISH OR POLYURETHANE GUYS ! SINK OR SWIM ..OTHERWISE !!! On Jan 1, 2014 9:46 AM, "Mark Langford" wrote: > This has been a great conversation, and we've probably all learned > something from it. I'm the last guy to argue that our cool little > creations don't deserve anything but the best, but there's a concept called > "close enough for KR work", and it involves not going way over the top to > get things done, either in the money department or the effort (and time) > department. Before I spent a lot for the top-of-the-line spar varnish for > the inside of my airplane, I'd consider the laminating epoxy that I already > have on hand. > > N891JF had no epoxy, urethane, or varnish of any kind inside the cabin. I > guess the assumption was that it was going to live in a hangar so it > wouldn't be a problem, or maybe it was a weight concern. Since I have it > stripped down to nothing but wood inside, I figure it's a great time to > coat it with something, especially since I've seen N56ML with large ponds > of water in the back due to thunderstorms at OSH and SnF. So I ran over > all the bare wood with a palm sander, vacuumed it, and mixed up about 4 > ounces of epoxy. I thinned it a little with lacquer thinner and applied > one good coat to all the wood surfaces, plywood and spruce, in the cabin, > from the backside of the firewall up to the seat back. That's all sides, > floor, and spars. I figure another 4 ounces will easily cover the rest of > the fuselage including tail cone area. So I've used what might be a > dollar's worth of epoxy, which I had on hand already, and might have thrown > out in a few years because it had turned brown and worried me. Great place > for old epoxy! I'm sure this is not what you'd want to do for maximum life > of a boat hull, but for the occasional KR puddle, this is "good enough for > KR work", and it cost me a half a pound for some long-term insurance. I > have to admit though, the thing looked perfect in bare wood, over 25 years > after construction! > > When I do the back, I'll do what's recommended in the plans and in general > wooden aircraft lore, which is drill a 1/8" hole at the aft two corners of > each floor "compartment" (where the water is going to collect), and then > epoxy that area and seal the edges of those holes. This will allow any > water that collects to drain harmlessly to the outside. The tri-gear > strategy is probably the front corners, rather than the aft corners. > > Good conversations about any KR building or flying is always construction > and welcome... > > Mark Langford > ML at N56ML.com > website at http://www.N56ML.com > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options >
KR> They don't have varnish
This has been a great conversation, and we've probably all learned something from it. I'm the last guy to argue that our cool little creations don't deserve anything but the best, but there's a concept called "close enough for KR work", and it involves not going way over the top to get things done, either in the money department or the effort (and time) department. Before I spent a lot for the top-of-the-line spar varnish for the inside of my airplane, I'd consider the laminating epoxy that I already have on hand. N891JF had no epoxy, urethane, or varnish of any kind inside the cabin. I guess the assumption was that it was going to live in a hangar so it wouldn't be a problem, or maybe it was a weight concern. Since I have it stripped down to nothing but wood inside, I figure it's a great time to coat it with something, especially since I've seen N56ML with large ponds of water in the back due to thunderstorms at OSH and SnF. So I ran over all the bare wood with a palm sander, vacuumed it, and mixed up about 4 ounces of epoxy. I thinned it a little with lacquer thinner and applied one good coat to all the wood surfaces, plywood and spruce, in the cabin, from the backside of the firewall up to the seat back. That's all sides, floor, and spars. I figure another 4 ounces will easily cover the rest of the fuselage including tail cone area. So I've used what might be a dollar's worth of epoxy, which I had on hand already, and might have thrown out in a few years because it had turned brown and worried me. Great place for old epoxy! I'm sure this is not what you'd want to do for maximum life of a boat hull, but for the occasional KR puddle, this is "good enough for KR work", and it cost me a half a pound for some long-term insurance. I have to admit though, the thing looked perfect in bare wood, over 25 years after construction! When I do the back, I'll do what's recommended in the plans and in general wooden aircraft lore, which is drill a 1/8" hole at the aft two corners of each floor "compartment" (where the water is going to collect), and then epoxy that area and seal the edges of those holes. This will allow any water that collects to drain harmlessly to the outside. The tri-gear strategy is probably the front corners, rather than the aft corners. Good conversations about any KR building or flying is always construction and welcome... Mark Langford ML at N56ML.com website at http://www.N56ML.com
KR> They_don't_have_varnish
If you send a message to the list and it arrives blank, the problem is almost certainly that you sent it as HTML rather than "plain text". Check your email client's settings before you send the message. For example, in Outlook Express it's under "Format". I know Brian knows this, so this is for everybody else that wonders... Mark Langford ML at N56ML.com website at http://www.N56ML.com - Original Message - From: To: "KRnet" Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 10:29 PM Subject: Re: KR> They_don't_have_varnish
KR> Fwd: FAA Physical update
From: PPaulVsk at aol.com To: krnet at list.com Sent: 12/31/2013 11:32:59 P.M. Central Standard Time Subj: FAA Physical update So I can please the FAA medical people in the long process of getting my FAA physical I had two NON symptomatic kidney stones removed by endoscope today. My love for my KR-2S is not vary high tonight. : ( Happy New Years everyone! Paul Visk Belleville Il. 618-406-4705 _Paul Visk - KR-2S Aircraft Builder's Log_ (http://www.mykitlog.com /PaulVisk/)
KR> They don't have varnish
Wow, That's good info. FYI you need to watch out what you say about the big box store's Mark owns Stock in it. : ) Happy New Years every! Paul Visk Belleville Il. 618-406-4705 _Paul Visk - KR-2S Aircraft Builder's Log In a message dated 12/31/2013 10:54:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, miclineback at gmail.com writes: Ok so not to beat a dead horse here but the products that you purchase in any Big Box are NOT Varnish but are Urethane / plastic finishes. Ace used to sell a true Oil based Varnish till last year and they have now stopped. _ (http://www.mykitlog.com/PaulVisk/)
