KR> OSH camping info

[Phillip Matheson]

They used to also have camping at the YMCA.
-

Correct. I stayed there the entire week in 2010, great place, YES ice in the 
hocky ring. You can camp on the indoor grass football field, NO TENT PEGS so 
you need a free standing tent.
Phil Matheson

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KR> counter balanced elevator

[cruzj12 at frontiernet.net]

?My counter balanced eleavtor horn?has limited area for adding enough weigt to 
static balance the elevator.I need approx 2.2 pounds on each side. Should I add 
as much lead weight as possible and forget about it. or should I?not install 
any?weights?in the elevator??
KR1.5 N3151K new modified tail.? Thanks, Joe

Joe Cruz
cruzj12 at frontiernet.net
KR1.5 N3151K
KR2S builder

KR> counter balanced elevator

[Rob Schmitt]

The design does not require any balance weights on the elevator, just the 
ailerons.

Rob Schmitt
N1852Z
WWW.robert7721.com




> On Jul 31, 2014, at 9:43 AM, cruzj12--- via KRnet  
> wrote:
> 
>  My counter balanced eleavtor horn has limited area for adding enough weigt 
> to static balance the elevator.I need approx 2.2 pounds on each side. Should 
> I add as much lead weight as possible and forget about it. or should I not 
> install any weights in the elevator? 
> KR1.5 N3151K new modified tail.  Thanks, Joe
> 
> Joe Cruz
> cruzj12 at frontiernet.net
> KR1.5 N3151K
> KR2S builder
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> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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> options

KR> counter balanced elevator

[Paul Visk]

?I'm contemplating the same issue. ?I didn't know it was going to take that 
much ?weight. ?Looking at the original design of not having any counter weight. 
?I was thinking about adding ?only half of the weight required to balance it 
out. I don't know, what do you guys think.?

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618 406 4705


Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4.

 Original message From: cruzj12--- via KRnet 
 Date:07/31/2014  9:43 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: KRnet  Subject: KR> counter 
balanced elevator 
 My counter balanced eleavtor horn has limited area for adding enough 
weigt to static balance the elevator.I need approx 2.2 pounds on each side. 
Should I add as much lead weight as possible and forget about it. or should I 
not install any weights in the elevator? 
KR1.5 N3151K new modified tail.  Thanks, Joe

Joe Cruz
cruzj12 at frontiernet.net
KR1.5 N3151K
KR2S builder
_

KR> counter balanced elevator

[cruzj12 at frontiernet.net]

?My KR1 weighed 479 pounds empty before the rebuild of the tail section so the 
added weight of the wider horzontal. stabilizer ,elevator by 12" will be a 
little more weight? there for sure. Weight and balance will tell all.

Joe Cruz
cruzj12 at frontiernet.net
KR1.5 N3151K
KR2S builder 


On Thursday, July 31, 2014 12:33 PM, "cruzj12 at frontiernet.net"  wrote:



?I could add maybe half as much as I need as well. I don't know if there's 
enough advantage by doing so . The tail was a little light with the original 
tail before. I'm thinking ,no added weight if I cannot statically balance the 
elevator. The extra useless weight?could take me out of the weight and balance 
envelope.?Thinking/@! do it right or don't do it at all.

Joe Cruz
cruzj12 at frontiernet.net
KR1.5 N3151K
KR2S builder


On Thursday, July 31, 2014 11:38 AM, Paul Visk  wrote:



?I'm contemplating the same issue. ?I didn't know it was going to take that 
much ?weight. ?Looking at the original design of not having any counter weight. 
?I was thinking about adding ?only half of the weight required to balance it 
out. I don't know, what do you guys think.?

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618 406 4705


Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4.


 Original message 
From: cruzj12--- via KRnet 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date:07/31/2014  9:43 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: KRnet 
Subject: KR> counter balanced elevator 
?My counter balanced eleavtor horn?has limited area for adding enough weigt to 
static balance the elevator.I need approx 2.2 pounds on each side. Should I add 
as much lead weight as possible and forget about it. or should I?not install 
any?weights?in the elevator??
KR1.5 N3151K new modified tail.? Thanks, Joe

Joe Cruz
cruzj12 at frontiernet.net
KR1.5 N3151K
KR2S builder
_

KR> counter balanced elevator

[Paul Visk]

Come to think of it aerodynamically. Doesn't elevator horns themself act as 
counterbalances,

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618 406 4705

Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4.

 Original message From: Paul Visk  Date:07/31/2014  10:38 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
cruzj12 at frontiernet.net,KRnet  Subject: 
RE: KR> counter balanced elevator 
 I'm contemplating the same issue.  I didn't know it was going to take 
that much  weight.  Looking at the original design of not having any counter 
weight.  I was thinking about adding  only half of the weight required to 
balance it out. I don't know, what do you guys think. 

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618 406 4705


Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4.

KR> counter balanced elevator

[Jeff Scott]

I would echo exactly what Rob said.  I have flown my KR with the original plans 
elevator and flight tested to 225 mph IAS.  After 500 hours, I changed to the 
newer tail with the 0009 airfoil and have flight tested it to 215 mph IAS.  
Neither tail had counterweights and neither tail showed any propensity towards 
flutter.

I routinely descend from 12,500' to 7000' for landing with the ASI showing 190 
mph IAS, which is roughly 220 mph TAS at those altitudes.  At well over 1000 
hrs flight time in this plane, I have never observed any flutter issues.

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM

>
> Subject: Re: KR> counter balanced elevator
>
> The design does not require any balance weights on the elevator, just the 
> ailerons.
> 
> Rob Schmitt
> N1852Z
> WWW.robert7721.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jul 31, 2014, at 9:43 AM, cruzj12--- via KRnet  
> > wrote:
> > 
> >  My counter balanced eleavtor horn has limited area for adding enough weigt 
> > to static balance the elevator.I need approx 2.2 pounds on each side. 
> > Should I add as much lead weight as possible and forget about it. or should 
> > I not install any weights in the elevator? 
> > KR1.5 N3151K new modified tail.  Thanks, Joe
> > 
> > Joe Cruz

> 

KR> counter balanced elevator

[cruzj12 at frontiernet.net]

?I'll let someone else tred on that. Maybe some weight in the counter balance 
is better than no weight at all?


Joe Cruz
cruzj12 at frontiernet.net
KR1.5 N3151K
KR2S builder 


On Thursday, July 31, 2014 12:53 PM, Paul Visk  wrote:



Come to think of it aerodynamically. Doesn't elevator horns themself act as 
counterbalances,

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618 406 4705

Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4.


 Original message 
From: Paul Visk 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date:07/31/2014  10:38 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: cruzj12 at frontiernet.net,KRnet 
Subject: RE: KR> counter balanced elevator 

?I'm contemplating the same issue. ?I didn't know it was going to take that 
much ?weight. ?Looking at the original design of not having any counter weight. 
?I was thinking about adding ?only half of the weight required to balance it 
out. I don't know, what do you guys think.?

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618 406 4705


Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4.

KR> OSH camping - thank you

[Gary Ainsworth]

We're back from Osh, and I would like to take this opportunity to thank all 
who offered advice on the Osh camping. We were able to sneak around the rain 
and weather on Sunday (RV9A) and arrived just after the rain to join the 
Marines Osprey rotor wings in for landings on 26R & 26L. (Their demo was 
awesome!)
The high winds and rain on Tuesday night was rough and wet! A non- pegged 
tent would have flown, a bad porpoise landing did a prop and
crank on Tuesday as well a tough way to land at Osh. I got a photo from 
Friars waiting area, of the beginning of a Tornado forming up - Glad it 
didn't take shape or another Sun N' Fun debacle I am sure would have 
resulted (I was there at S N' F!)
Monday's KR seminar was the best I have witnessed and well done and well 
prepared. (Mark and 'techy' Larry) Good questions were attended to by the KR 
vets and a good turnout.
Thanks again to the KR net for your advice and helpful hints, as this was my 
4th visit in 14 years and one of the best AirVentures for me (Got a smile 
and a wave from Bob Hoover and a the new Alternative Engines Volume 4 
(colour) just off the press from Pat Panzera (Contact Magazine)
and some other good stuff.
Gary - Canada
-Original Message- 

From: Phillip Matheson via KRnet
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 7:19 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> OSH camping info

They used to also have camping at the YMCA.
-

Correct. I stayed there the entire week in 2010, great place, YES ice in the
hocky ring. You can camp on the indoor grass football field, NO TENT PEGS so
you need a free standing tent.
Phil Matheson

KR> counter balanced elevator

[peter]

Jeff; small correction- 190 IAS is aerodynamically equal to 190 TAS @ standard 
conditions. Your pitot reacts to the dynamic pressure of impacting air 
molecules, independent of density altitude,  just like your flight surfaces 
will, so flight testing to 215 IAS has been demonstrated without flutter. 
Congrats. Peter




I routinely descend from 12,500' to 7000' for landing with the ASI showing 190 
mph IAS, which is roughly 220 mph TAS at those altitudes. 

KR> Todd from Todd ' s Canopies

[Paul Visk]

I just confirmed the date and time with Todd from Tdds Canopies. He will be 
stopping over on his way back from Oshkosh this Sunday afternoon to help me 
trim my canopy. ?I asked him if I could invite other builders to come over and 
he said "Sure". So if anyone is in the metro east area of St Louis. ?Come on 
over and see the man work. ?Call me for more info.

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618 406 4705


Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4.

KR> counter balanced elevator

[cruzj12 at frontiernet.net]

?Ok Jeff I'll close up my elevator horns with no weights added. I'm thinking? 
as long as my elevator cables are tensioned properly,I should not worry about 
flutter.Before tail mods?top speed?was around 145 indicated. I believe 
everything you write here, except for your gagesdo you think your 
instruments need calibration?.just kidding...?

Joe Cruz
cruzj12 at frontiernet.net
KR1.5 N3151K
KR2S builder 


On Thursday, July 31, 2014 1:31 PM, peter via KRnet  
wrote:




Jeff; small correction- 190 IAS is aerodynamically equal to 190 TAS @ standard 
conditions. Your pitot reacts to the dynamic pressure of impacting air 
molecules, independent of density altitude,? just like your flight surfaces 
will, so flight testing to 215 IAS has been demonstrated without flutter. 
Congrats. Peter




I routinely descend from 12,500' to 7000' for landing with the ASI showing 190 
mph IAS, which is roughly 220 mph TAS at those altitudes. 




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KR> counter balanced elevator

[Jeff Scott]

KR> counter balanced elevator

[Jeff Scott]

I should add the caveat that I have no cables in my elevator controls.  
Strictly a push rod configuration.

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos,NM


> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 at 12:10 PM
> From: "cruzj12--- via KRnet" 
> To: peter , KRnet 
> Subject: Re: KR> counter balanced elevator
>
> ?Ok Jeff I'll close up my elevator horns with no weights added. I'm thinking? 
> as long as my elevator cables are tensioned properly,I should not worry about 
> flutter.Before tail mods?top speed?was around 145 indicated. I believe 
> everything you write here, except for your gagesdo you think your 
> instruments need calibration?.just kidding...?
> 
> Joe Cruz
> cruzj12 at frontiernet.net
> KR1.5 N3151K
> KR2S builder 
> 
> 
> On Thursday, July 31, 2014 1:31 PM, peter via KRnet  
> wrote:
>   
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff; small correction- 190 IAS is aerodynamically equal to 190 TAS @ 
> standard conditions. Your pitot reacts to the dynamic pressure of impacting 
> air molecules, independent of density altitude,? just like your flight 
> surfaces will, so flight testing to 215 IAS has been demonstrated without 
> flutter. Congrats. Peter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I routinely descend from 12,500' to 7000' for landing with the ASI showing 
> 190 mph IAS, which is roughly 220 mph TAS at those altitudes. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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> options
>

KR> counter balanced elevator

[Jeff Scott]

Peter,

Sorry if this is a repeat message.  My email keeps changing itself from text to 
HTML, so my previous post on this subject would have come through blank for 
some.
?
You are correct about the pitot system and stall speed.? However, flutter is 
all about velocity of the air rather than pressure of the air.? I'll suggest 
reading this article: 
, specifically starting at the 
last paragraph of the first page and continuing into the second page.?
?
I'm open to discussion on the subject as I have been wrong before and will 
likely be wrong again. :o)? The above article was written after an RV got into 
a flutter situation causing damage to the aircraft during a rapid descent from 
a high altitude flight, even though the pilot kept the plane well below VNE and 
had mass balanced controls.? I'm sure the story could be easily found via a 
Google search.
?
Best regards,
?
-Jeff
?

Sent:?Thursday, July 31, 2014 at 11:30 AM
From:?peter 
To:?jscott.planes at gmx.com, krnet at list.krnet.org
Subject:?Re: KR> counter balanced elevator

Jeff; small correction- 190 IAS is aerodynamically equal to 190 TAS @ standard 
conditions. Your pitot reacts to the dynamic pressure of impacting air 
molecules, independent of density altitude,? just like your flight surfaces 
will, so flight testing to 215 IAS has been demonstrated without flutter. 
Congrats. Peter
?
? I routinely descend from 12,500' to 7000' for landing with the ASI showing 
190 mph IAS, which is roughly 220 mph TAS at those altitudes.

?

KR> counter balanced elevator

[peter]

Jeff; I've read the article and am very concerned. I'm a CFI so what I teach 
determines pilot's behavior in practice. I want to read more before answering, 
but I have four observations: 1. The Mooney turbocharged models do not vary Vne 
(IAS) with altitude. 2. sailplane manufacturers lower Vne with decreasing 
density out of an abundance of caution:


"
 The real answer is that flutter charactistics for most gliders are not
  evaluated throughout the full altitude/airspeed range during flight testing.
  Aerodynamic forces are proportional to indicated airspeed but this is not
  the only factor to consider. Traditionally lowering the IAS VNE at altitude
  to give a TAS corresponding to TAS for VNE at sea level is considered safe
  practise.  This is what your sailplane manufacturer has done. 
  Recent OSTIV papers on flutter speeds at high altitude have appeared in
  "Technical Soaring", well worth looking up for anyone interested in the
  flying high and fast ( essential reading for wave flyers ). 

  A suggestion for using a VNE of the mean value between equivalent airspeed
  (almost the same as IAS) and TAS was offered in one of these articles.  
   TAS  (T+E)/2  EAS
.
30k   \   |
   \ .|
\ |
20k  \.   |
  \   |
   \   .  |
10k \ |
 \  . | 
  \   |
   \ .| 
sea level   \ |
--
 VNE   (IAS)speed --->
a reduced IAS for VNE at altitude is still used but the reduction is not
as great as the reduction required for keeping TAS below sea level VNE. 
The absence of flutter when using these speeds is not guaranteed, infact
the same applies to the "keep TAS below sea level VNE" speeds.
Speed and altitude are not the only factors. Add OAT,wing loading, flap
setting to the list for starters."


3. We have no way of directly measuring TAS except in reference to the ground. 
Some ASIs on high-performance aircraft are adjusted for pressure effects, but 
this is a small effect. Even the heavy aircraft, operating at 40,000ft at just 
above stall speed, use pitot/static measurements to measure speed through the 
atmosphere and dynamic pressure.(and crash if they freeze up.)

4. In the same publication you cited, the charts for Vne are straight vertical 
lines, not sloped with pressure altitude.



I'll go read my Kershner (my bible) and get back to you. How fun! Peter

KR> Elevator counter balance weight

[Sidney wood]

My KR-2 has a single 2.6 pound counter weight on a remote 18-inch arm mounted 
in the fuselage for 100 percent balancing of the elevator.
Sid Wood Tri-gear KR-2
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

KR> Kit Plans

[Paul Visk]

Hi Neville,?
There is no so called ?kit. You buy the plan's. ?Which comes with the manual 
and all the drawings. With that there's enough to scratch build you're plane. 
Then there are many parts that you can buy that are pre made from NV Aero.?

Paul Visk
Bellville Il
618 406 4705


Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4.

 Original message From: Neville Sutton via 
KRnet  Date:07/31/2014  8:52 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: krnet at list.krnet.org Subject: KR> Kit 
Plans 
Are the plans included in  a kit or just the builders manual

If so Is  the plans and the  builders manual the same for a kit and for 
scratch build (can I scratch build a KR from the plans supplied with a kit)

I know someone trying to sell a half built kit
Postage for me would be a killer so just wondering if the plans would be 
suitable

Also are you able to tell me the shoulder width of the KR2s cockpit

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