KR> Engine miss

[laser147 at juno.com]

Thanks Mark for the idea about putting foil over the Tiny Tach sensor
wire where it wraps around the lead.  I didn't run a new ground but just
tightened up the wraps and cut a piece of aluminum tape and covered the
wraps and the Tiny Tach is back to normal.  This the first time that
either of the two Tiny Tachs I've owned have ever done anything weird.   

Sorry if I've confused anyone regarding my comments last post about plug
gaps and concern about coils getting old, etc.  That's what comes from
not having my head in the game for the last couple years.  I closed the
gap on the secondary plug on the cylinder that was missing and figured
I'd solved the problem without realizing the .016 - .019 gap range I
mentioned is for the magneto plugs, not the secondary plugs.  Now I KNEW
that electronic ignition plugs take a much wider gap than the magneto
plugs, but totally forgot that yesterday when trying to track down the
miss.  (Things like that is why I've got the plane up for sale.) 


The secondary plugs, looking back in my engine log, I originally gapped
at .030.  Forgetting that yesterday, I totally mistakenly jumped to the
conclusion that the large gap on the plug was due to electrode wear . . .
and that's what I passed on to everyone yesterday.  (A good example of
how misinformation gets started and passed around on the internet.)  That
the engine ran without missing once I closed the gap to .015 was
incidental.  The green coils from Great Plains are built by Dyna and
designed to fire a .040 gap.  Closing the gap to .015 should not have
fixed anything.  I probably "fixed" the problem by accidentally moving a
lead wire around so that it wasn't touching another wire or the engine
mount - something giving it an opportunity to arc - which is what I now
think the source of the miss was.  The Dyna coils are putting out 30K
volts and the leads need to be well-insulated and in good shape.  Mine
have been on the plane forever, so it's time for some new harness wires. 
Thankfully, the leads are not molded into the coils as some cheaper
systems do it.  The wire leads off of the Dyna coils are removable so I'm
now shopping for some new ignition leads.  Great Plains sells them for
$30 but gives no details about whether they are resistor or non-resistor
leads.  Are the spark plug caps they come with resistor caps or
non-resistor caps?  What kind of wires are they anyway . . . silicone,
copper, something else?  Who makes them?  Great Plains doesn't make them,
so who does, and what are the specs?  These wires aren't for a damn dune
buggy, they're for an airplane so why the dearth of detail?  Are we
presumed to be too stupid to want to know what we're buying?  Same thing
with the plugs they sell for the secondary ignition system.  They're
described as 10mm plugs.  That's it.  No brand.  No info whether they are
resistor plugs or non-resistor plugs. Nothing regarding heat range.  We
need pretty cold plugs in VW engines so just what is the heat range? 
I'll call later in the week after this holiday stuff is over and see if
Marty knows the answer to these questions but really, I shouldn't have to
waste his time with questions that the catalog should have already
answered.  

BTW, if the current GP catalog is accurate, they've got brand new Slick
4022 magnetos for $375!!  These are exact replacements for the 4316 that
Spruce is selling for $1133.  Last time GP had these they ran out quickly
so get 'em while they have them as the opportunity may not come again. 
They're surplus industrial mags that are green instead of black but are
otherwise the same and have been machined to fit the Diehl case.   Thanks
to Sparky I happen to have a brand-new Slick in reserve or I would be
ordering one of these green ones tomorrow.

Mike
KSEE


The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar Dont Eat This!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5564035e4218535e55b8st02vuc

KR> Removable turtle deck

[Sid Wood]

My turtle deck is removable.  24 flat head screws into nut plates in 
aluminum angle bent to match the curve and attached to the longerons with 
AN3 bolts hold it in place.  Removal time is about 10 minutes.  Mine is a 
slightly modified RR factory part.
http://websites.expercraft.com/sidwood/index.php?q=log_entry_id=355

Sid Wood
Tri-gear KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
--


? ? ?Does anyone besides Mark have a removable turtle deck or in the process 
of making one??
? ? ?I have mine attached with expanding foam. it would be so simple right 
now to lay the fiberglass and be done with it.

Paul Visk
Belleville Il.
618-406-4705

--

KR> Engine miss

[Dene]

If it is running a waste fire spark system, yes it is entirely possible. It
is common and there is nothing wrong with the practice.
The plug will fire at the top of the compression stroke as well as the top
of the exhaust stroke.

-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Mac
McConnell-Wood via KRnet
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 5:55 PM
To: KRnet
Cc: Mac McConnell-Wood
Subject: Re: KR> Engine miss

Back in the '60's when Ho...a's- started exporting , - the squadron I was
on in Malaysia bought a whole bunch of Cubs.
Were a bit hacked off when the plugs started failing after a short time
-our resident engineer reckoned that due to a design fault the ignition was
firing twice in the 4 stroke cycle -and burning out the plugs -is this
possible?

KR> For Sale

[Dan Heath]

My 2700CC Corvair engine built by Roy with his front bearing and set to zero
time by Roy last November.  It is still at zero time because it has been
patiently awaiting another plane to fly.  However, I need to part with it
and all the goodies that go with it for $10,500.



By all the goodies, I mean just about everything you need to put it on your
mount and fly away, including the prop, but no exhaust.  It has most of the
WW gold parts and the black hub and a ring gear that was built by someone
else.  It has a new starter, never used, and a rear mounted JD dynamo
(alternator).



You can contact me at Danrh at Windstream.net.



My Panther Building Documentation at  
PantherBuilder Web Site



Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

KR> Engine miss

[Mac McConnell-Wood]

Back in the '60's when Ho...a's- started exporting , - the squadron I was
on in Malaysia bought a whole bunch of Cubs.
Were a bit hacked off when the plugs started failing after a short time
-our resident engineer reckoned that due to a design fault the ignition was
firing twice in the 4 stroke cycle -and burning out the plugs -is this
possible?

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Chris Kinnaman via KRnet <
krnet at list.krnet.org> wrote:

> Years ago I raced motorcycles and OEM Japanese coils were notoriously
> cheesy, some brands of bikes worse than others. I never raced new bikes so
> they all had some time (but in many cases, not much time) on them when I
> got them. After some frustrating issues I made it a practice to replace
> coils right away with new ones or, better yet, performance coils from Accel
> or whatever. I would think current coils are better quality than I
> experienced decades ago but maybe not.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On 5/24/2015 11:25 PM, Mike Stirewalt via KRnet wrote:
>
>> Are these green Great Plains
>> coils that sensitive to gap?  Are they wearing out and getting weak?  I
>> think they are motorcycle in origin and I've never noticed coils ever
>> wearing out on my bikes . . . .
>>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change
> options
>

KR> Engine miss

[Mark Wegmet]

I probably should have phrased that better... the V-Twin construction
follows the typical 4 cycle configuration; the mag fires on every revolution
and the power strokes are controlled by cam timing. Take the cover off the
mag and watch the lobe and point actuation - that will tell you if you are
timed for a "waste" stroke.

-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark Wegmet
via KRnet
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 3:16 PM
To: 'KRnet'
Cc: Mark Wegmet
Subject: Re: KR> Engine miss

My '60 Sportster (XLCH) with a Morris mag "fires" on every revolution on
both cylinders, although due to cam timing the front and rear cylinders are
on a 'power' stroke on alternating revolutions. Because of the 45 degree
cylinder separation you get the sweet Harley sound... or as the motor
company patented it years ago; potato potato potato. Reads stupid, but
sounds great!

-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Kinnaman via KRnet
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 11:02 AM
To: KRnet
Cc: Chris Kinnaman
Subject: Re: KR> Engine miss

It's not a design fault, it's called a "wasted spark" ignition. 


___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html see
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options

KR> Engine miss

[peter]

A- not possible, by design mags turn at the rate of the camshaft...one rev. per 
four strokes. B- double firing does not cause rapid sparkplug wear. Probably 
lead-fouling or improper heat range plugs.

a design fault the ignition wasfiring twice in the 4 stroke cycle -and 
burningout the plugs -is thispossible?

KR> Engine miss

[Mark Wegmet]

My '60 Sportster (XLCH) with a Morris mag "fires" on every revolution on
both cylinders, although due to cam timing the front and rear cylinders are
on a 'power' stroke on alternating revolutions. Because of the 45 degree
cylinder separation you get the sweet Harley sound... or as the motor
company patented it years ago; potato potato potato. Reads stupid, but
sounds great!

-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Kinnaman via KRnet
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 11:02 AM
To: KRnet
Cc: Chris Kinnaman
Subject: Re: KR> Engine miss

It's not a design fault, it's called a "wasted spark" ignition. 

KR> Removable turtle deck

[Peter Drake]

Its the back half off a Piel Emeraude, but turned around to make it a bit 
slicker.

I am at last getting on with it having got the approvals for all my mods and 
the Jabiru.

Just done the toe brakes, thanks for the design on your website, Mark.

Just about to start on the firewall forward. I have bought a piece of 0.5mm 
grade 1 Titanium for the firewall to keep the weight down.

Peter

>Note the sexy shape of canopy and turtle deck!
Is that a Grob canopy, or what?  It looks

KR> Engine miss

[Joe. E. Wallace]

Thanks Mike for the exceptional tech talk?.  this is why I follow this site so 
directly?.  Thanks again?jw
Joe. E. Wallace
jwallacep51 at gmail.com



> On May 25, 2015, at 00:25, Mike Stirewalt via KRnet  
> wrote:
> 
> I've had a miss in the secondary ignition for awhile and didn't know
> which cylinder was missing.  I haven't been too concerned about tracking
> it down since normally both the mag and the electronic ignition systems
> are on and the engine runs smooth as silk.  I finally decided to address
> this mystery today and figured it would be easy with my laser thermometer
> to run the 

KR> Engine miss

[laser147 at juno.com]

> "Were a bit hacked off when the plugs started failing after a short
time
-our resident engineer reckoned that due to a design fault the ignition
was
firing twice in the 4 stroke cycle -and burning out the plugs -is this
possible?"

Yes, I think most motorcycle ignitions use the "wasted spark" system.  I
think I'll call Joe Horvath at Revmaster and ask him about his ignition
systems just to see if his ignitions use the wasted spark system as well
. . . just out of curiosity.   Revmasters don't use magnetos anymore,
just dual electronic ignitions.  I'm guessing the modern Rotax engines
and perhaps the UL engines that Dan is considering for his Panther do
something similar and why not?  Magnetos are left-over tractor technology
and it's amazing when you think about it that aircraft engines are still
using magnetos . . . sometimes pressurized ones but still, 30-40 thousand
dollar engines still using magnetos.

That's a good suggestion that the wasted spark system is wearing out my
airplane plugs, but Ive never noticed any abnormal wear with my
motorcycle plugs over the years.  I'm thinking the electrode wear I'm
seeing with the Champion 10 mm secondary ignition plugs has something to
do with the fact these are "racing" plugs.  They are probably designed to
wear faster in return for a hotter spark?  I'll look into it.  Need to
get over to the hangar just now and pull some more plugs, check my valve
adjustment and then head up to VGT Wednesday.  

Re the Tiny Tach - Thanks Mark for the remarks on your experience with
them.  This is my second one.  The first one that came with the plane
eventually died after many years.  The batteries built in to them are not
replaceable but they do last a very long time.  This is the first anomaly
I've ever experienced with the Tiny Tach.  Yours is the first negative
report I've ever heard in fact.   They've been great 'till this probem
just cropped up in response to my fiddling with the sensor wire.  I'll
keep fiddling with it and report back.



4 Veggies Not to Eat?
NEVER eat these fruits and veggies if you want a flat belly
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/55638c879c0c6c872945st03vuc

KR> Engine miss

[Chris Kinnaman]

It's not a design fault, it's called a "wasted spark" ignition. Plug 
fires every revolution of the crank, even on the exhaust cycle. It's 
common on British bikes as well.

On 5/25/2015 9:55 AM, Mac McConnell-Wood via KRnet wrote:
> Back in the '60's when Ho...a's- started exporting , - the squadron I was
> on in Malaysia bought a whole bunch of Cubs.
> Were a bit hacked off when the plugs started failing after a short time
> -our resident engineer reckoned that due to a design fault the ignition was
> firing twice in the 4 stroke cycle -and burning out the plugs -is this
> possible?
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Chris Kinnaman via KRnet <
> krnet at list.krnet.org> wrote:
>
>> Years ago I raced motorcycles and OEM Japanese coils were notoriously
>> cheesy, some brands of bikes worse than others. I never raced new bikes so
>> they all had some time (but in many cases, not much time) on them when I
>> got them. After some frustrating issues I made it a practice to replace
>> coils right away with new ones or, better yet, performance coils from Accel
>> or whatever. I would think current coils are better quality than I
>> experienced decades ago but maybe not.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> On 5/24/2015 11:25 PM, Mike Stirewalt via KRnet wrote:
>>
>>> Are these green Great Plains
>>> coils that sensitive to gap?  Are they wearing out and getting weak?  I
>>> think they are motorcycle in origin and I've never noticed coils ever
>>> wearing out on my bikes . . . .
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change
>> options
>>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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> options
>
>

KR> Engine miss

[peter]

Back in my early working days I was called to a customer's factory to sell them 
a new paper cutter. I thought I would be selling to an in-house printshop. My 
jaw dropped when I stepped into a giant room where HP made it's transformers 
and coils, and found hundreds of ladies at tables spinning fine wire around 
cores, separated by long strips of brown paper. Capacitors, coils and 
transformers are delicate constructions, and the hotter they run, the shorter 
their life is. 



After some frustrating issues I made it a practice to 
replace coils right away
with new ones or, better yet, performance coils 
from Accel or whatever. I
would think current coils are better quality 
than I experienced decades ago
but maybe not.

Chris

KR> Removable turtle deck

[Peter Drake]

Hi Paul

I have made a removable turtle deck see www.peterskr2s.co.uk.
It has 6  2024 ally lugs cast in the fibreglass which will have nutplates 
on. They are fixed by screws from the outside.
It means that access to the rear of the fuselage is so much easier. Note the 
sexy shape of canopy and turtle deck!

Peter Drake
Hereford UK


Subject: KR> Removable turtle deck

 Does anyone besides Mark have a removable turtle deck or in the process 
of making one?
 I have mine attached with expanding foam. it would be so simple right 
now to lay the fiberglass and be done with it.

KR> Engine miss

[Mark Langford]

Mike Stirewall wrote:

 > This other issue that came up regarding the Tiny Tach readouts being
 > twice normal is a mystery I feel I should know the answer to but just
 > can't think of.

Good luck with that!  Those are the most finicky electrical devices I've 
ever had to deal with.  Mine read all kinds of crazy numbers (and I went 
through three of them), and what finally worked was wrapping the coils 
with aluminum foil and grounding the foil to the engine.  Jim Faughn was 
having similar issues and this "mostly" cured his as well.  I never was 
happy with the Tiny Tachs in N56ML.com, and eventually gave up on them, 
leaving a custom-size hole in the panel that I had to figure out what to 
fill with.   Apparently it's worked fine for you up until now, so go 
figure. Again, good luck with that!

As for the plugs, now you know why I have four CHTs on my 
engine...engine troubleshooting happens during every flight, especially 
the long boring ones at altitude!  Good post though...something to think 
about...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Removable turtle deck

[Mark Langford]

Peter Drake wrote:

 >Note the sexy shape of canopy and turtle deck!

Wow!  That's a nice one!  Is that a Grob canopy, or what?  It looks 
similar to Willie Wilson's.  That's some awesome workmanship.  That's 
going to be a gorgeous plane.  Let us know how the spoiler's work out. 
It ought to have plenty of power with the Jabiru on it.  Lookin' good!

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Engine miss

[Chris Kinnaman]

Years ago I raced motorcycles and OEM Japanese coils were notoriously 
cheesy, some brands of bikes worse than others. I never raced new bikes 
so they all had some time (but in many cases, not much time) on them 
when I got them. After some frustrating issues I made it a practice to 
replace coils right away with new ones or, better yet, performance coils 
from Accel or whatever. I would think current coils are better quality 
than I experienced decades ago but maybe not.

Chris


On 5/24/2015 11:25 PM, Mike Stirewalt via KRnet wrote:
> Are these green Great Plains
> coils that sensitive to gap?  Are they wearing out and getting weak?  I
> think they are motorcycle in origin and I've never noticed coils ever
> wearing out on my bikes . . . .