KR> new airfoil modifications

2016-10-03 Thread Mark Langford
Kayak Chris wrote:

> Dumb question, can I assume this suggestion applies to the kr1 kr1.5
> etc (all kr variants) as well?

Probably so.  Few people build KR1's anymore (it's usually a KR2S that's 
narrowed a bit), so nobody's built a KR1 with the new airfoil, but it is 
interchangeable with the RAF48, but with more efficient performance.

I shouldn't even have said "new KR2"having flown KR2S and the KR2 
for hundreds of hours each, and the fact that building an S is almost 
exactly the same labor and cost as a KR2, I think you'd be crazy to 
build a new KR2 when the KR2S is so much better.

See more on this kind of stuff at http://www.n56ml.com/kopinion.html ...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com




KR> WW Award

2016-10-03 Thread Gary Ainsworth
I have been following the Corvair ?authority? since 2003 and found this 
this morning. Looks good on him!
see:  
http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-and-aviation-news/news/09-29-2016-homebuilders-major-achievement-award-presented-to-william-wynne?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTWpneE1XWTROV1l5TkRVMiIsInQiOiI4SGtEVHNUbzcxcGRDeEtybWJsQ1A2SHhWdWczcGZacDkrSzdQUVdDZ0pJbTZqdHhJMlhTM0Z3UGxWdVJUQnVNRDB5d1RvdHlBUm94bXEyQWZcL1kwXC8zYnp3YmsrZk9UdjlheExjN3gxQWJ3PSJ9



Gary ? Canada   
garyains?at?kwic.com


KR> new airfoil modifications

2016-10-03 Thread Gary
On 10/3/2016 5:58 AM, Mark Langford via KRnet wrote:
> Kayak Chris wrote:
>
>> Dumb question, can I assume this suggestion applies to the kr1 kr1.5
>> etc (all kr variants) as well?
>
> Probably so.  Few people build KR1's anymore (it's usually a KR2S 
> that's narrowed a bit), so nobody's built a KR1 with the new airfoil, 
> but it is interchangeable with the RAF48, but with more efficient 
> performance.
>
> I shouldn't even have said "new KR2"having flown KR2S and the KR2 
> for hundreds of hours each, and the fact that building an S is almost 
> exactly the same labor and cost as a KR2, I think you'd be crazy to 
> build a new KR2 when the KR2S is so much better.
>
> See more on this kind of stuff at http://www.n56ml.com/kopinion.html ...
>
> Mark Langford
> ML at N56ML.com
> http://www.n56ml.com
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html.
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to 
> change options
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>

Eat those words.   I have just finished my KR1 with the 5048 airfoil.

-- 
*Gary *
/Soli Deo Gloria/


KR> new airfoil modifications

2016-10-03 Thread donald january
If a person has Diehl wing skin's with the Raf 48 airfoil and mounted
AS5046 rib's, Will the skin's fit?

On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 8:50 AM, Gary via KRnet  wrote:

> On 10/3/2016 5:58 AM, Mark Langford via KRnet wrote:
>
>> Kayak Chris wrote:
>>
>> Dumb question, can I assume this suggestion applies to the kr1 kr1.5
>>> etc (all kr variants) as well?
>>>
>>
>> Probably so.  Few people build KR1's anymore (it's usually a KR2S that's
>> narrowed a bit), so nobody's built a KR1 with the new airfoil, but it is
>> interchangeable with the RAF48, but with more efficient performance.
>>
>> I shouldn't even have said "new KR2"having flown KR2S and the KR2 for
>> hundreds of hours each, and the fact that building an S is almost exactly
>> the same labor and cost as a KR2, I think you'd be crazy to build a new KR2
>> when the KR2S is so much better.
>>
>> See more on this kind of stuff at http://www.n56ml.com/kopinion.html ...
>>
>> Mark Langford
>> ML at N56ML.com
>> http://www.n56ml.com
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>> Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html.
>> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to
>> change options
>> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>>
>>
> Eat those words.   I have just finished my KR1 with the 5048 airfoil.
>
> --
> *Gary *
> /Soli Deo Gloria/
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html.
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change
> options
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>


KR> new airfoil modifications

2016-10-03 Thread Teate, Stephen
"If a person has Diehl wing skin's with the Raf 48 airfoil and mounted
AS5046 rib's, Will the skin's fit?"

Hello Don,

I have built my wings with the Diehl skins and my first reaction would be to 
say no. The skins themselves are fairly flexible cord wise as far as airfoil 
shape is concerned but the skins have built in recesses for the main and aft 
spars. If I recall these spar locations change with the new airfoil. Also the 
leading edge radius is not going to match the new airfoil and obviously you 
will have to come up with the correct airfoil templates. I think it would be a 
lot more work to try and retrofit the RAF48 skins to fit the new airfoil then 
to just go ahead and start with the new airfoil and build it from scratch.

However, as I am very close to finally finishing my baby there is no way I am 
going to add any more time to my build. I am sure I will be very happy with the 
wing I have and the amount of time that it saved me. 

Stephen Teate
Paradise, Texas



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KR> new airfoil modifications

2016-10-03 Thread Jeff Scott


KR> new airfoil modifications

2016-10-03 Thread Jeff Scott


?
I can't give an authoritative answer, but I would have to agree with what 
Stephen says.? If you want the AS Airfoil, sell your Diehl Skins. While the AS 
series air foil is a nice design and undoubtedly a much better refined airfoil, 
there's nothing wrong with the RAF-48 if you want to go that route. My KR has 
the Diehl Skins and RAF airfoil since it predates the development of the AS 
series airfoil.? It's no slouch in performance even with my heavyweight lard 
butt in the seat. However, if I was building a new KR today and had no parts on 
hand for the wings, I would definitely build it with the AS airfoil.
?
-Jeff Scott


Subject:?Re: KR> new airfoil modifications

If a person has Diehl wing skin's with the Raf 48 airfoil and mounted
AS5046 rib's, Will the skin's fit?
?



KR> new airfoil modifications

2016-10-03 Thread Larry Flesner
At 08:50 AM 10/3/2016, you wrote:
>Probably so.  Few people build KR1's anymore (it's usually a KR2S 
>that's narrowed a bit), so nobody's built a KR1 with the new 
>airfoil, but it is interchangeable with the RAF48, but with more 
>efficient performance.
+

Are there new airfoil drawings scaled to the KR1 fuselage?  If anyone 
is building a KR1 scaled up to the KR2 fuselage I'd sure go with the 
new airfoil.  I'm flying the RAF48 but after a 13 year build I'm not 
about to build new wings.  My 48's have given me 600 hours of fun flying.

Larry Flesner 




KR> new airfoil modifications

2016-10-03 Thread Tucker Brown

Donald,


> If a person has Diehl wing skin's with the Raf 48 airfoil and mounted
> AS5046 rib's, Will the skin's fit?

Mark L had a lot of comments about this at the gathering but not everyone
got to hear.

Reference: http://www.krnet.org/as504x/
and
http://www.nvaero.com/categories/Aircraft-Components/Wings/KR%252d2S-Wing-Components/

I would imagine they would not fit, but there are two designs to the new
airfoil, one that fits the spars per the kr plans, and another that has
shorter spars for the new design.  I have no idea what nVAero has built
to.

I'm no expert on these airfoils.

Regards,
Tucker





KR> new airfoil modifications

2016-10-03 Thread Mark Jones
>Mark Langford wrote:
>A lot of folks have opted for the new airfoil and managed to alter the 
>bellcrank to work successfully, so would those that have, please post a 
>link as to how they did it?

I also built the AS5048 airfoil and had to devise a bellcrank system since 
the stock was too large to mount on the rear of the spar. What I did was to 
reverse engineer the bellcrank and I mounted it on the forward side of the 
rear spar. Take a look at the following link especially the photos toward 
the bottom of the page.
http://flykr2s.com/stubwing1.html


Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Dunedin, FL

E-mail: flykr2s at gmail.com
Web: www.flykr2s.com





KR> new airfoil / bellcrank

2016-10-03 Thread Larry Flesner
At 07:17 PM 10/3/2016, you wrote:
>>Mark Langford wrote:
>>A lot of folks have opted for the new airfoil and managed to alter 
>>the bellcrank to work successfully, so would those that have, 
>>please post a link as to how they did it?


Take a look at the following link especially the photos toward the 
bottom of the page.
http://flykr2s.com/stubwing1.html


The bellcrank design calls for the two arms to be separated by a 
channel which is a portion of one of the arms.  Why not compress the 
bellcrank to two flat arms bolted together and eliminate the 
separation.  This would compress the assembly to a very thin assembly 
that should easily fit within the new airfoil.  One cable could be 
attached to the top side of one arm with a small spacer and the other 
to the bottom side of the other arm with a small spacer, thus 
separating the cables at crossover.  Another option would be to 
connect the cables to the bellcrank beyond the crossover point with 
thin lengths of metal.

Larry Flesner  




KR> Aileron Rigging

2016-10-03 Thread Larry Flesner
At 07:34 PM 10/3/2016, you wrote:
>I've been thinking about using push-pull cables for the ailerons rather
>than the conventional arrangement.


Other aircraft designs have used that type of setup.  The Murphy 
Rebel uses such a cable to actuate the "flaperons".

Larry Flesner 




KR> Aileron Rigging - bellcranks and push pull cables

2016-10-03 Thread Mark Langford


Tony King wrote:

 > But I'm pretty sure using push-pull cables with no
> bellcranks would eliminate any differential action of the ailerons.
> It might be possible to get some of that back by doing something like
> what Mark Langford did with his ailerons (where the front edge sticks
> up into the airflow as the aileron goes down) . I guess my question
> really is what effect is that likely to have on a KR?

Yep, you'll need a bellcrank if you want differential ailerons, and the 
plans version does that.  Any kind of bellcranks works though...it's 
just the geometry of the hole pattern (which I'm sure you know).

Frise ailerons work fine too.  Either one does the job, but I chose to 
do a little of both, and it works great, as the only time I need to 
touch the rudder pedals is on takeoff and during windy landings or a slip.

But Larry Flesner will be quick to tell you that the stock differential 
ailerons work fine too, just like they are, and that the best way to 
keep the ball centered in a KR is to simply keep your feet away from the 
pedals, whether straight ahead or in a turn...it works great!

There's more on Frise ailerons buried in the page at 
http://www.n56ml.com/owings.html , but you might get lost in there.  I 
don't recognize the young kid in those photos though...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com




KR> Aileron Rigging - bellcranks and push pull cables

2016-10-03 Thread Mark Langford
Oh, and I forgot push-pull-cables.  They can be bad news, and heavy is 
the least of it.  The more curves there in the housings, the more slop 
you'll have as they take up the space between cable and housing, and the 
friction is much higher than a pulley system.  There's a very good 
reason why the vast majority of aircraft use pull-pull cables, and it's 
less friction and virtually no slop.

I have first hand experience on my "work project" for the last six 
years.  A young engineer chose push-pull cables, and laying out on a 
table, they were "friction free".  Install them, add a few curves, and 
it becomes a nightmare.  And the higher load you put on them, the higher 
the friction goes.  That doesn't really happen with pull-pull cables. 
We are changing back to what I recommended in the 
beginning...aircraft-type pull-pull cables.

Granted, for straight, short cables, from stick to bellcrank, that'll 
probably work, and have the advantage of the ability to land if one side 
fails, but I don't know of a single KR (and very few other aircraft) 
that have had that problem.  Give it a try though, and let us know how 
it works out.

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com




KR> New airfoil on old style spars question

2016-10-03 Thread Kayak Chris
This topic brings me to a question I hadnt thought of.

I have a kr2 plans built boat stage with outer   spars made and all the
wafs attached.

Does the new style airfoil match the spars positions? What changes would be
needed to the shape of the spars of any (shaved down, chamfered etc) ?
Also as it appears (iirc) , my boat has the rigging out to the bellcranks
on the rear center spar ends so it looks from these messages that those
will be too "thick" and have to be redone.

I have not yet purchased skins yet.

Basically, what can I expect to do moving forward to accomodate what I have
with the new airfoil?  And if I choose to make the wings the "old way" what
kind of labor hours and cost is usually expended and would that make it
easir to build the new airfoil onto the original spar position and
dimensions?

Sorry for long winded question but I think you can see what Im trying to
determine here...


KR> Aileron Rigging - bellcranks and push pull cables

2016-10-03 Thread Kayak Chris
Just as aside, my Avid Mk4 has push pull control tubes for elevator and
ailerons including a complex aileron  "mixer" that allows the flaperons to
operate as flaps and ailerons at the same time, and to fold the wings back
without disconnecting anything. (Although at low speeds the system can
deliver a "control reversal" condition. That only happens at low speed
which usually also includes low altitude which is always a fun time to
experience it.)

I dont recall any friction issues.


KR> New airfoil on old style spars question

2016-10-03 Thread Mark Langford
Kayak Chris wrote:

> I have a kr2 plans built boat stage with outer spars made and all
> the wafs attached.
>
> Does the new style airfoil match the spars positions? What changes
would be
> needed to the shape of the spars of any (shaved down, chamfered etc)
> ?

Go check the airfoil templates at
http://www.krnet.org/as504x/templates.html and  compare the spar 
thicknesses shown in the templates to your existing spars.  Adding 
material is easy, and there is likely some room for some removal but I'm 
not about to sign up for figuring out how much.  The goal was to fit 
perfectly on the KR2S.  I will confess to not having checked the KR2, 
which has different sweep than the KR2S.

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com




KR> New airfoil on old style spars question

2016-10-03 Thread Larry Flesner
At 09:05 PM 10/3/2016, you wrote:
>my boat has the rigging out to the bellcranks
>on the rear center spar ends so it looks from these messages that those
>will be too "thick" and have to be redone.
>+++

I'd have to do some research (measuring) but it seems to me the 
aileron bellcrank assembly could be compressed a bit without causing 
cable interference and be made to fit inside the new wing 
assembly.  Has anyone tried that with no success?

Larry Flesner 




KR> New airfoil / bell crank

2016-10-03 Thread Larry Flesner

>
>I'd have to do some research (measuring) but it seems to me the 
>aileron bellcrank assembly could be compressed
>a bit without causing cable interference and be made to fit inside 
>the new wing assembly.
>Larry Flesner
>+

I just checked the plans and the two arms on the aileron bell crank 
are separated by one full inch.  Would rebuilding to 1/2 inch 
clearance allow it to fit within the airfoil.  1/2 inch cable 
clearance on the crossover seems adequate to me in a tight closed 
cable system.  I'm thinking I'd be comfortable flying with that.
Larry Flesner