KR> EFI contrast to Ron Slender remarks
Why batch fire injectors? Why not sequence fire injectors? Batch fire seems a little waste full. KRron - Original Message - From: "Phillip Matheson" <mathe...@dodo.com.au> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 7:10 PM Subject: Re: KR> EFI contrast to Ron Slender remarks > - Original Message - > From: "VW Engines" <sa...@vw-engines.com> > To: "Phillip Matheson" <mathe...@dodo.com.au> > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 10:32 AM > Subject: Re: KR> EFI contrast to Ron Slender remarks > > >> >> --Philip/ Colin >> >> Just wondering where Colin will buy a computer off a car that will work > off >> the shelf with a 2200 vw air cooled engine. >> >> Sure car engines have computers and work well with the engine they came > out >> of. >> They cannot work out multi coil set up ( unless they were one originally) > and >> I would say difficult to work a dual ignition type arrangement. >> >> The problem it that there isn't a car you could take an EFI system out of > to >> retro fit to a VW engine. >> That is why anyone who tries cannot afford the development and the time >> involved. >> >> That is why we have created a system that does produce excellent fuel > burn, >> compensates in altitude and you can actually buy one of these engines >> from >> us both as 2000 and 2200 EFI. >> We have batch fire injectors and we run off MAP sensor Colin. >> We use block temp to monitor start enrichment. That is all we need. We > have >> incoming air temperature too. >> And a good design planum. >> >> If for say you picked on any late model engine and left it as it was and >> fitted it to an aircraft subject prop rpm the engine as an efi engine > would >> most likely work fine. The problem is as I said there aren't any air > cooled >> ones and small liquid ones are heavy so what are the options?Although, >> the >> computer may still keep asking for sensors that are no longer needed. >> This is ok as a 1 off but with our experience with electronics new looms > are >> essential and fitted and tested so that minimal expertise is required by >> the aircraft builder in respect off installing an EFI engine. >> Our computers are the latest in aftermarket EFI management fully > programmable >> with multi coils. >> You can even buy a card and data log your flight. >> >> I don't know where I can buy an aircooled, EFI engine, that produces a > 100 >> hp + at efficient prop rpm that can data log flight engine operation. >> Choices start to get pretty narrow when you include all that. >> >> VW Engine Centre makes a 2000 and 2200 EFI gear drive experimental >> engine. >> >> Very soon there will be an RG TT 2200 EFI in an XL in the USA and he is >> surrounded by some carb engine Jabiru 6`s so all the armchair talk will >> be >> out the window with strong comparisons available on a level playing >> field. >> Whatever the outcome, I think you would have to get in the que to see >> this >> engine in the aircraft. >> >> >> >> Ron Slender >> >> >> >> > Phillip Matheson > mathe...@dodo.com.au > Australia > VH PKR > See our engines and kits at. > http://www.vw-engines.com/ > http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ > See my KR Construction web page at > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html > > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > >
KR> EFI contrast to Ron Slender remarks
Phillip and netters I would like to point out in brief responses to the comments by Ron Slender having been trained to diagnose vehicles the way that Ron has described his research with his aviation EFI. First off let me say that no aircraft I know of without a turbine engine has had its engine operating in as harsh an environment as automobiles today are designed to run in routinely. Car alternators are expected to output 60, 70, sometimes as much as 100 amps in some of the newest vehicles, while underhood temperatures on an 85 degree day with reflected heat into the engine compartment will reach over 500 degrees, and still they are expected not to fail. Just one part. At the same time the same car 3000 miles away has to be able to also function just as well in below freezing temperatures, AND keep us comfortable inside. No aircraft I know for less than $400,000 can do that nor are they designed to do that. Not putting anything down, just making an observation. All late model cars that I know of and light trucks have the fuel pump also controlled by the computer, so this is a moot point. Virtually all domestic cars after 1990 have magnetic trigger/pickup for their ignition in one version or another, so no distributor to break or wear out. Both Cam and crank position are known by the computer. MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensors is old technology and if Ron is designing around this he is at least 10 years behind. Real time MAF (mass air flow) meters actually measure the volume of incoming air which is much more precise than the approximate measurement of the MAP sensor. MAP sensors work very well for batch fire injection, which is where one whole bank of injectors fire or spray at once. But if you are using sequential injection, you really need the accuracy of the MAF to get the most out of the system, and handle all the engine running conditions. TBI fuel systems regularly run on as little as 5 psi, and max at 15 psi. EFI systems range from 20-30 psi upwards of 50-60 psi in domestics, and some European systems as high as 80 psi (most are back down to domestic as well now). This is high pressure but also allows the system to be able to handle the adjustments over a much wider range than in the early versions. Rather than using some rare spark plug that will cost $16 a piece, using a capacitive discharge system straight off a domestic car will produce anywhere from 60-90kv through platinum, or double platinum plugs that will last several years minimum. Timing is fully electronic with crank and cam sensors, coolant temp sensor for engine temp, air charge temp for incoming air temp, knock sensor for retard, and O2 sensors for checking accuracy of mixture control. No need for all that expensive re-working of the fuel map, the manufacturer has all that pre-programmed into the computer, and will handle all the variety of loads that the engine will experience. Remember, they had to plan on hill climbing, use in all parts of the country, running at sea level, and then up in the mountains, hot and cold. The computer doesn't know about altitude and doesn't care. All it cares about is matching the fuel mix to the incoming air, whatever that volume and temp. The only sensors that might cause problems (besides lead on the O2 sensor), is any transmission sensors. Be sure to select a manual transmission vehicle for easiest conversion. Wire looms/harness already assembled at the factory. Just remove completely, and re-install. Includes weather seal connectors. OBD I computers require no battery to maintain programming so once the PROM chip is installed, the basics are already there. All that has to be done is run the engine to establish the baseline for the adaptive memory, and you are rockin. Just can't see any good reason to buy someone's "latest developments" when that has already been done a decade ago. If you know how it works, use it. crain...@cfl.rr.com http://kr-builder.org/Colin/index.html KR2(td) N96TA Sanford, FL Apex Lending, Inc. 407-323-6960 (p) 407-557-3260 (f) crai...@apexlending.com
KR> EFI contrast to Ron Slender remarks
- Original Message - From: "VW Engines" <sa...@vw-engines.com> To: "Phillip Matheson" <mathe...@dodo.com.au> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 10:32 AM Subject: Re: KR> EFI contrast to Ron Slender remarks > > --Philip/ Colin > > Just wondering where Colin will buy a computer off a car that will work off > the shelf with a 2200 vw air cooled engine. > > Sure car engines have computers and work well with the engine they came out > of. > They cannot work out multi coil set up ( unless they were one originally) and > I would say difficult to work a dual ignition type arrangement. > > The problem it that there isn't a car you could take an EFI system out of to > retro fit to a VW engine. > That is why anyone who tries cannot afford the development and the time > involved. > > That is why we have created a system that does produce excellent fuel burn, > compensates in altitude and you can actually buy one of these engines from > us both as 2000 and 2200 EFI. > We have batch fire injectors and we run off MAP sensor Colin. > We use block temp to monitor start enrichment. That is all we need. We have > incoming air temperature too. > And a good design planum. > > If for say you picked on any late model engine and left it as it was and > fitted it to an aircraft subject prop rpm the engine as an efi engine would > most likely work fine. The problem is as I said there aren't any air cooled > ones and small liquid ones are heavy so what are the options?Although, the > computer may still keep asking for sensors that are no longer needed. > This is ok as a 1 off but with our experience with electronics new looms are > essential and fitted and tested so that minimal expertise is required by > the aircraft builder in respect off installing an EFI engine. > Our computers are the latest in aftermarket EFI management fully programmable > with multi coils. > You can even buy a card and data log your flight. > > I don't know where I can buy an aircooled, EFI engine, that produces a 100 > hp + at efficient prop rpm that can data log flight engine operation. > Choices start to get pretty narrow when you include all that. > > VW Engine Centre makes a 2000 and 2200 EFI gear drive experimental engine. > > Very soon there will be an RG TT 2200 EFI in an XL in the USA and he is > surrounded by some carb engine Jabiru 6`s so all the armchair talk will be > out the window with strong comparisons available on a level playing field. > Whatever the outcome, I think you would have to get in the que to see this > engine in the aircraft. > > > > Ron Slender > > > > Phillip Matheson mathe...@dodo.com.au Australia VH PKR See our engines and kits at. http://www.vw-engines.com/ http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ See my KR Construction web page at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> EFI contrast to Ron Slender remarks
- Original Message - From: "VW Engines" <sa...@vw-engines.com> To: "Phillip Matheson" <mathe...@dodo.com.au> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 10:32 AM Subject: Re: KR> EFI contrast to Ron Slender remarks > > --Philip/ Colin > > Just wondering where Colin will buy a computer off a car that will work off > the shelf with a 2200 vw air cooled engine. > > Sure car engines have computers and work well with the engine they came out > of. > They cannot work out multi coil set up ( unless they were one originally) and > I would say difficult to work a dual ignition type arrangement. > > The problem it that there isn't a car you could take an EFI system out of to > retro fit to a VW engine. > That is why anyone who tries cannot afford the development and the time > involved. > > That is why we have created a system that does produce excellent fuel burn, > compensates in altitude and you can actually buy one of these engines from > us both as 2000 and 2200 EFI. > We have batch fire injectors and we run off MAP sensor Colin. > We use block temp to monitor start enrichment. That is all we need. We have > incoming air temperature too. > And a good design planum. > > If for say you picked on any late model engine and left it as it was and > fitted it to an aircraft subject prop rpm the engine as an efi engine would > most likely work fine. The problem is as I said there aren't any air cooled > ones and small liquid ones are heavy so what are the options?Although, the > computer may still keep asking for sensors that are no longer needed. > This is ok as a 1 off but with our experience with electronics new looms are > essential and fitted and tested so that minimal expertise is required by > the aircraft builder in respect off installing an EFI engine. > Our computers are the latest in aftermarket EFI management fully programmable > with multi coils. > You can even buy a card and data log your flight. > > I don't know where I can buy an aircooled, EFI engine, that produces a 100 > hp + at efficient prop rpm that can data log flight engine operation. > Choices start to get pretty narrow when you include all that. > > VW Engine Centre makes a 2000 and 2200 EFI gear drive experimental engine. > > Very soon there will be an RG TT 2200 EFI in an XL in the USA and he is > surrounded by some carb engine Jabiru 6`s so all the armchair talk will be > out the window with strong comparisons available on a level playing field. > Whatever the outcome, I think you would have to get in the que to see this > engine in the aircraft. > > > > Ron Slender > > > > Phillip Matheson mathe...@dodo.com.au Australia VH PKR See our engines and kits at. http://www.vw-engines.com/ http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ See my KR Construction web page at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> EFI contrast to Ron Slender remarks
Sorry for sending this twice ??? Phillip Matheson mathe...@dodo.com.au Australia VH PKR See our engines and kits at. http://www.vw-engines.com/ http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/ See my KR Construction web page at http://mywebpage.netscape.com/FlyingKRPhil/VHPKR.html Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
