KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Mark]

NOS is a high pressure gas that is delivered from steel pressure vessels
(think high pressure oxygen in an oxy-acetylene  set up). It certainly is
not light and the hp increase probably would not be worth hauling the tank
and control servos and plumbing around after you have exhausted the gas.

JMHO

Mark W
N952MW

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of Craig Williams
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 1:01 PM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

Has anyone ever use NOS in a small qty to get maybe a 10-15 HP boost.  It
seems that a dry system does not weigh much and it would be nice to get a
little boost when your at gross as long as you had an Air Fuel monitor to
adj the mixture. The system could be turned off after you reach 1000ft.  Any
thoughts on that?

Craig
www.kr2seafury.com 

--- On Sat, 1/29/11, Ken Yellen  wrote:

> From: Ken Yellen 
> Subject: Re: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question
> To: n92...@cox.net, "KRnet" 
> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2011, 6:51 PM Ken Rand also spent more on 
> Oxygen than on gas.
> Ken
> 
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Steve Glover 
> wrote:
> 
> > And KR-1 that is at EAA OSH.
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Virgil Salisbury 
> > Sender: krnet-boun...@mylist.net
> > Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2011 22:46:26
> > To: KRnet
> > Reply-To: KRnet 
> > Subject: Re: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is
> the Question
> >
> >     Ken Rand turboed his KR-2,
> Virg
> >
> >
> >     On 1/2/2011 12:46 PM, Jeff
> Scott wrote:
> > > Joe, You have to know that you aren't the first
> to go down this path.  I
> > would suggest that you take a good look at Orma
> Robbins web site<
> > http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/>, then do a
> search in the KRNet
> > Archives for Orma's comments and problems with regards
> to his turbo
> > installation on his Type 4 engine.  Orma is a
> long time A&P/IA, so is far
> > from new at this, but I think eventually, he found
> that the problems with
> > the turbo on the type 4 were much more than he wanted
> to deal with.  Your
> > mileage may vary, but you may learn the most by
> looking at the history and
> > failures of one that has been down that road before.
> -Jeff ScottN1213W
> >  -- Original Message --
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Search the KRnet Archives at 
> > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net 
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html 
> > ___
> > Search the KRnet Archives at 
> > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net 
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> >
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> 




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KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Craig Williams]

Has anyone ever use NOS in a small qty to get maybe a 10-15 HP boost.  It seems 
that a dry system does not weigh much and it would be nice to get a little 
boost when your at gross as long as you had an Air Fuel monitor to adj the 
mixture. The system could be turned off after you reach 1000ft.  Any thoughts 
on that?

Craig
www.kr2seafury.com 

--- On Sat, 1/29/11, Ken Yellen  wrote:

> From: Ken Yellen 
> Subject: Re: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question
> To: n92...@cox.net, "KRnet" 
> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2011, 6:51 PM
> Ken Rand also spent more on Oxygen
> than on gas.
> Ken
> 
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Steve Glover 
> wrote:
> 
> > And KR-1 that is at EAA OSH.
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Virgil Salisbury 
> > Sender: krnet-boun...@mylist.net
> > Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2011 22:46:26
> > To: KRnet
> > Reply-To: KRnet 
> > Subject: Re: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is
> the Question
> >
> >     Ken Rand turboed his KR-2,
> Virg
> >
> >
> >     On 1/2/2011 12:46 PM, Jeff
> Scott wrote:
> > > Joe, You have to know that you aren't the first
> to go down this path.  I
> > would suggest that you take a good look at Orma
> Robbins web site<
> > http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/>, then do a
> search in the KRNet
> > Archives for Orma's comments and problems with regards
> to his turbo
> > installation on his Type 4 engine.  Orma is a
> long time A&P/IA, so is far
> > from new at this, but I think eventually, he found
> that the problems with
> > the turbo on the type 4 were much more than he wanted
> to deal with.  Your
> > mileage may vary, but you may learn the most by
> looking at the history and
> > failures of one that has been down that road before.
> -Jeff ScottN1213W
> >  -- Original Message --
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> > ___
> > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> >
> ___
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Ken Yellen]

Ken Rand also spent more on Oxygen than on gas.
Ken

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Steve Glover  wrote:

> And KR-1 that is at EAA OSH.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Virgil Salisbury 
> Sender: krnet-boun...@mylist.net
> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2011 22:46:26
> To: KRnet
> Reply-To: KRnet 
> Subject: Re: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question
>
> Ken Rand turboed his KR-2, Virg
>
>
> On 1/2/2011 12:46 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:
> > Joe, You have to know that you aren't the first to go down this path.  I
> would suggest that you take a good look at Orma Robbins web site<
> http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/>, then do a search in the KRNet
> Archives for Orma's comments and problems with regards to his turbo
> installation on his Type 4 engine.  Orma is a long time A&P/IA, so is far
> from new at this, but I think eventually, he found that the problems with
> the turbo on the type 4 were much more than he wanted to deal with.  Your
> mileage may vary, but you may learn the most by looking at the history and
> failures of one that has been down that road before. -Jeff ScottN1213W
>  -- Original Message --
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>

KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Steve Glover]

And KR-1 that is at EAA OSH. 
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Virgil Salisbury 
Sender: krnet-boun...@mylist.net
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2011 22:46:26 
To: KRnet
Reply-To: KRnet 
Subject: Re: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

 Ken Rand turboed his KR-2, Virg


 On 1/2/2011 12:46 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:
> Joe, You have to know that you aren't the first to go down this path.  I 
> would suggest that you take a good look at Orma Robbins web 
> site<http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/>, then do a search in the KRNet 
> Archives for Orma's comments and problems with regards to his turbo 
> installation on his Type 4 engine.  Orma is a long time A&P/IA, so is far 
> from new at this, but I think eventually, he found that the problems with the 
> turbo on the type 4 were much more than he wanted to deal with.  Your mileage 
> may vary, but you may learn the most by looking at the history and failures 
> of one that has been down that road before. -Jeff ScottN1213W  -- 
> Original Message --
>
>
>


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KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Virgil Salisbury]

 Ken Rand turboed his KR-2, Virg


 On 1/2/2011 12:46 PM, Jeff Scott wrote:
> Joe, You have to know that you aren't the first to go down this path.  I 
> would suggest that you take a good look at Orma Robbins web 
> site, then do a search in the KRNet 
> Archives for Orma's comments and problems with regards to his turbo 
> installation on his Type 4 engine.  Orma is a long time A&P/IA, so is far 
> from new at this, but I think eventually, he found that the problems with the 
> turbo on the type 4 were much more than he wanted to deal with.  Your mileage 
> may vary, but you may learn the most by looking at the history and failures 
> of one that has been down that road before. -Jeff ScottN1213W  -- 
> Original Message --
>
>
>

KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Patrick and Robin Russo]

DJ, I forgot your personal e-mail address. I will take the Matco actuators, 
gascolater and misc.. Contact me at patru...@myfairpoint.net
Pat
- Original Message - 
From: "Dj Merrill" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question


> On 01/04/2011 10:35 AM, Jose Fuentes wrote:
>> That's very true, it does make sense to have in in-flight adjustable 
>> prop.
>> That way it can be adjusted, it's a good point.
>
>
> I happen to have an in-flight adjustable prop for sale (Vari-Prop VP-1)
> that was bought for a KR, if anyone is interested:
>
> http://deej.net/forsale/
>
> -Dj
>
> -- 
> Dj Merrill - N1JOV
> Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
>
> Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
> Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Randy Smith]

I had this prop on an VW 2100  and and the bigger version on the Sub 81. The 
small prop hit a wall at 140 mph. The Sub did not have enough HP to spine the 
big 1. The RV guys tried the large one and a couple of them lost blades and 
crashed. The folks at Ivo were VERY nice about taking the small one back. I did 
not buy the big one direct from them. I know if you tell them it is going on a 
KR with a VW they will not sell it to you.

--- On Tue, 1/4/11, Jose Fuentes  wrote:


From: Jose Fuentes 
Subject: Re: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question
To: "KRnet" 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Tuesday, January 4, 2011, 9:35 AM


That's very true, it does make sense to have in in-flight adjustable prop.
That way it can be adjusted, it's a good point.

I've seen this one as a thought but heard a few bad things about it, but the
bad things were based on years ago issues, would a company still sell
something if they hadn't worked out those issues (maybe I'm naive)?
http://www.ivoprop.com/inflightmediummodel.htm

Though not your standard type adjustable prop but lighter maybe?

Anyways good point and another item to think about when going turbo.

Joe
On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 5:22 AM, Dene Collett  wrote:

> Guys
> John Finlay mentions the addition of an in-flight adjustable prop to use in
> conjunction with your turbo.
> The way I understand it, the motor that has a turbo with the waist gate set
> to X manifold pressure will produce Y power regardless of it's altitude (at
> a fixed throttle setting). How do you prevent over revving the motor at
> altitude and still use the extra power that the turbo produces without an
> in-flight adjustible prop? Sure you could set the manifold pressure lower
> or
> run at a lower throttle setting but that negates using the turbo in the
> first place
> To me, using a turbo without an in-flight adjustable prop is not worth the
> effort and expense. Am I missing something?
>
> Regards
> Dene Collett
> Avlec Projects cc
> Port Elizabeth
> South Africa
>
>
> - Original Message -----
> From: "Jon Finley" 
> To: "KRnet" 
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 6:47 PM
> Subject: RE: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question
>
>
> 5. Allows you to add all sorts of new things to your wish list (oxygen
> system, in-flight adjustable prop, electrically heated seats, etc...).
>
>  Jon Finley
> N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22
>
>  ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>



-- 
Jose Fuentes
Founding Father (one of and former Vice Prez) of Capital City.NET User's
Group
Former Microsoft MVP
http://blogs.aspadvice.com/jfuentes
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KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[jmelvin...@aol.com]

Dene,

You hit the head of the nail perfectly.

John
El Paso


In a message dated 1/4/2011 3:42:31 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,  
av...@telkomsa.net writes:

Guys
John Finlay mentions the addition of an in-flight adjustable  prop to use 
in 
conjunction with your turbo.
The way I understand it,  the motor that has a turbo with the waist gate 
set 
to X manifold pressure  will produce Y power regardless of it's altitude 
(at 
a fixed throttle  setting). How do you prevent over revving the motor at 
altitude and still  use the extra power that the turbo produces without an 
in-flight  adjustible prop? Sure you could set the manifold pressure lower 
or 
run at  a lower throttle setting but that negates using the turbo in the 
first  place
To me, using a turbo without an in-flight adjustable prop is not  worth the 
effort and expense. Am I missing  something?

Regards
Dene Collett
Avlec Projects cc
Port  Elizabeth
South Africa


- Original Message - 
From:  "Jon Finley" 
To: "KRnet"  
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 6:47 PM
Subject:  RE: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question


5. Allows  you to add all sorts of new things to your wish list (oxygen 
system,  in-flight adjustable prop, electrically heated seats, etc...).

Jon Finley
N314JF - Q2 - Subaru  EJ-22

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KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Dj Merrill]

On 01/04/2011 10:35 AM, Jose Fuentes wrote:
> That's very true, it does make sense to have in in-flight adjustable prop.
> That way it can be adjusted, it's a good point.


I happen to have an in-flight adjustable prop for sale (Vari-Prop VP-1)
that was bought for a KR, if anyone is interested:

http://deej.net/forsale/

-Dj

-- 
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/

Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text

KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Jose Fuentes]

That's very true, it does make sense to have in in-flight adjustable prop.
That way it can be adjusted, it's a good point.

I've seen this one as a thought but heard a few bad things about it, but the
bad things were based on years ago issues, would a company still sell
something if they hadn't worked out those issues (maybe I'm naive)?
http://www.ivoprop.com/inflightmediummodel.htm

Though not your standard type adjustable prop but lighter maybe?

Anyways good point and another item to think about when going turbo.

Joe
On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 5:22 AM, Dene Collett  wrote:

> Guys
> John Finlay mentions the addition of an in-flight adjustable prop to use in
> conjunction with your turbo.
> The way I understand it, the motor that has a turbo with the waist gate set
> to X manifold pressure will produce Y power regardless of it's altitude (at
> a fixed throttle setting). How do you prevent over revving the motor at
> altitude and still use the extra power that the turbo produces without an
> in-flight adjustible prop? Sure you could set the manifold pressure lower
> or
> run at a lower throttle setting but that negates using the turbo in the
> first place
> To me, using a turbo without an in-flight adjustable prop is not worth the
> effort and expense. Am I missing something?
>
> Regards
> Dene Collett
> Avlec Projects cc
> Port Elizabeth
> South Africa
>
>
> - Original Message -----
> From: "Jon Finley" 
> To: "KRnet" 
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 6:47 PM
> Subject: RE: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question
>
>
> 5. Allows you to add all sorts of new things to your wish list (oxygen
> system, in-flight adjustable prop, electrically heated seats, etc...).
>
>  Jon Finley
> N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22
>
>  ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
> ___
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>



-- 
Jose Fuentes
Founding Father (one of and former Vice Prez) of Capital City.NET User's
Group
Former Microsoft MVP
http://blogs.aspadvice.com/jfuentes

KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Dene Collett]

Guys
John Finlay mentions the addition of an in-flight adjustable prop to use in 
conjunction with your turbo.
The way I understand it, the motor that has a turbo with the waist gate set 
to X manifold pressure will produce Y power regardless of it's altitude (at 
a fixed throttle setting). How do you prevent over revving the motor at 
altitude and still use the extra power that the turbo produces without an 
in-flight adjustible prop? Sure you could set the manifold pressure lower or 
run at a lower throttle setting but that negates using the turbo in the 
first place
To me, using a turbo without an in-flight adjustable prop is not worth the 
effort and expense. Am I missing something?

Regards
Dene Collett
Avlec Projects cc
Port Elizabeth
South Africa


- Original Message - 
From: "Jon Finley" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 6:47 PM
Subject: RE: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question


5. Allows you to add all sorts of new things to your wish list (oxygen 
system, in-flight adjustable prop, electrically heated seats, etc...).

  Jon Finley
N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

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KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Jose Fuentes]

 the systems they have
> available
> on Corvair motors would to me seem to be the better platform in which to
> start a
>
> turbo project.
>
> I love my GPAS VW and all that Steve Bennett has done. But the fastest way
> for
> me to mess up all that reliability is to slap a turbo on my VW motor
> without
> finding out if and how it can be done reliably.
>
>
> OK, I have ranted enough. I too want to hear from those that have done it
> so as
> to get the positive and learn how. Thats what this is all about.
>
> Sorry for running on but, I hope I was informative in some way as to the
> how
> what to look out for and what not to do. I would love to get 70, 80 or more
> horsepower out of my VW motor and if I could add a turbo to it and get
> reliable
> life out of it, I would do it. But, in my opinion,  it might make more
> sense to
> look at a Corvair that can get 100 hp or one of these 23xx VW motors.
>
> But, lets hear from the ones who know how and have, instead of us (me) who
> know
> how not to.
>
> By the way, I worked on some turbo spam cans that came into the aviation
> shop I
> used to work in. But they were very rare. I have to wonder why they were so
> rare.
>
> Jeff York
> KR-2 N839BG
> Lexington/ Georgetown, Kentucky
>
>
>
> - Original Message 
> From: "Teate, Stephen" 
> To: KRnet 
> Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 10:22:28 AM
> Subject: RE: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question
>
>
> "I've already heard some of the negatives from others, but does anyone have
> a
> list of positives?"
>
> Both Jeff Scott and Jeff York have responded to this and made excellent
> comments
> to be considered. I admit I am biased to the positive side of turbo's so I
> will
> add my opinion.
>
>
>
>
>  ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>



-- 
Jose Fuentes
Founding Father (one of and former Vice Prez) of Capital City.NET User's
Group
Former Microsoft MVP
http://blogs.aspadvice.com/jfuentes

KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Vaughan Thomas]

Steve & Jeff are thinking positive, my cynical comment on electric 'turbos' 
failed to convey my approval of conventional exhaust turbos. My current plan 
is to installa l a normally aspirated EA81 which I have, as a possible 
forerunner to a factory turbo fuel injected EA81(comp ratio,pistons, valves 
etc should be ok, its the cooling side to take care of - space & weight 
would be marginal on a KR though?). with a new plane in the air who needs 
possible extra problems to sort out first few hours up? The other concern is 
my caution regarding anythying computer/electronic going wrong at even 
1000'.  We have a lot of hills & mountains here.But I still hanker for a 
corvair core engine to use - another plea to anyone who can help get one 
down to NewZealand - corvairs are rarer than rockin horse turds downunder!
- Original Message - 
From: "Jeff York" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question


I, as well as Steve (as he stated)  would enjoy hearing more about the 
positives
on turbo charging too.

That said, I want to say that I did not want to come off sounding negative, 
I
just wanted to point out my concerns about turbo charging from my 
experience's
in high performance turbo charging. There are so many benefits to turbo 
charging

an engine from performance in power and fuel economy. Yes I said fuel 
economy
and what I meant by that was you can run a normally smaller displacement 
engine
to gain economy while getting the benefits of additional power by force 
feeding
air/fuel via the turbo. My problem was I never could keep my foot out of it 
to
really see the fuel economies but they are there.

Also, my experience was performance related and not of the altitude 
normalizing
that would be associated with aircraft turbo applications. However, some of 
the
same issues apply. I pointed out, and Steve and others pointed them out as 
well.



The main concerns I would have are oil and engine temps due to the very high
temps a turbo can achieve. As I recall 1600 degrees F. As Steve pointed out, 
I
would never consider a turbo without a intercooler. An intercooler is used 
to
cool

the turbo charged air fuel after it goes through the turbo and before it 
enters
the combustion chamber. Do not mistake the idea that an intercooler is for
cooling the turbo charger. Its not. That will be the job of your over sized 
oil
cooler.



When the engine in a turbo charged motor is shut down, that 1600 degree 
turbo
(which is oil cooled) will act as a furnace to cook the remaining oil in the
turbo. This will effectively coke the oil. This is why normal shut down of a
turbo charged motor is not recommended. Its why turbo timers are used to
circulate that oil after engine shut down.

I know the Dragonfly guys and Tri Q guys did a lot of turbo charging of the
Subaru motors and some of the Corvair guys had been looking into it or have 
done

it. But I believe weight and engine life issues may have slowed down or 
halted
the use and development of those turbo applications. One more thing. It was 
my
understanding when I did turbos on performance applications that you did not
just slap a turbo on any engine. Don't put ten pounds of boost on a 9 to 1 
or 10

to 1 compression motor and expect it to hold together very long. You will
effectively have a
19 or 20 to 1 compression motor. These are diesels. That kind of compression
will blow up
 a motor. Also, make sure you have the right exhaust valves to handle a 
turbo or
you will be burning them

up. Not fun pulling off to the side of the road at 10,000 feet when you eat 
a
valve cook a piston or blow a head gasket.

It was a lot of fun doing turbo apps in automotive applications. Computer
controlled air fuel metering, precise BOV/ Waste gate control, air/fuel 
mixture
control and other systems

allowed reliable power gains. I am not sure I have seen anything better than 
old

unreliable mechanical systems available to do this on a VW motor. But what 
the
William Winns and MJ's and ML's are doing with the systems they have 
available
on Corvair motors would to me seem to be the better platform in which to 
start a

turbo project.

I love my GPAS VW and all that Steve Bennett has done. But the fastest way 
for
me to mess up all that reliability is to slap a turbo on my VW motor without
finding out if and how it can be done reliably.


OK, I have ranted enough. I too want to hear from those that have done it so 
as
to get the positive and learn how. Thats what this is all about.

Sorry for running on but, I hope I was informative in some way as to the how
what to look out for and what not to do. I would love to get 70, 80 or more
horsepower out of my VW motor and if I could add a turbo to it and get 
reliable
life out of it, I would do it. But, in my opinion,  it might make more sense 
to
look at a Corvair that can get 100 hp or o

KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Jeff York]

I, as well as Steve (as he stated)  would enjoy hearing more about the 
positives 
on turbo charging too. 

That said, I want to say that I did not want to come off sounding negative, I 
just wanted to point out my concerns about turbo charging from my experience's 
in high performance turbo charging. There are so many benefits to turbo 
charging 

an engine from performance in power and fuel economy. Yes I said fuel economy 
and what I meant by that was you can run a normally smaller displacement engine 
to gain economy while getting the benefits of additional power by force feeding 
air/fuel via the turbo. My problem was I never could keep my foot out of it to 
really see the fuel economies but they are there.

Also, my experience was performance related and not of the altitude normalizing 
that would be associated with aircraft turbo applications. However, some of the 
same issues apply. I pointed out, and Steve and others pointed them out as 
well. 



The main concerns I would have are oil and engine temps due to the very high 
temps a turbo can achieve. As I recall 1600 degrees F. As Steve pointed out, I 
would never consider a turbo without a intercooler. An intercooler is used to 
cool 

the turbo charged air fuel after it goes through the turbo and before it enters 
the combustion chamber. Do not mistake the idea that an intercooler is for 
cooling the turbo charger. Its not. That will be the job of your over sized oil 
cooler. 



When the engine in a turbo charged motor is shut down, that 1600 degree turbo 
(which is oil cooled) will act as a furnace to cook the remaining oil in the 
turbo. This will effectively coke the oil. This is why normal shut down of a 
turbo charged motor is not recommended. Its why turbo timers are used to 
circulate that oil after engine shut down.

I know the Dragonfly guys and Tri Q guys did a lot of turbo charging of the 
Subaru motors and some of the Corvair guys had been looking into it or have 
done 

it. But I believe weight and engine life issues may have slowed down or halted 
the use and development of those turbo applications. One more thing. It was my 
understanding when I did turbos on performance applications that you did not 
just slap a turbo on any engine. Don't put ten pounds of boost on a 9 to 1 or 
10 

to 1 compression motor and expect it to hold together very long. You will 
effectively have a
19 or 20 to 1 compression motor. These are diesels. That kind of compression 
will blow up
 a motor. Also, make sure you have the right exhaust valves to handle a turbo 
or 
you will be burning them 

up. Not fun pulling off to the side of the road at 10,000 feet when you eat a 
valve cook a piston or blow a head gasket.

It was a lot of fun doing turbo apps in automotive applications. Computer 
controlled air fuel metering, precise BOV/ Waste gate control, air/fuel mixture 
control and other systems 

allowed reliable power gains. I am not sure I have seen anything better than 
old 

unreliable mechanical systems available to do this on a VW motor. But what the 
William Winns and MJ's and ML's are doing with the systems they have available 
on Corvair motors would to me seem to be the better platform in which to start 
a 

turbo project.

I love my GPAS VW and all that Steve Bennett has done. But the fastest way for 
me to mess up all that reliability is to slap a turbo on my VW motor without 
finding out if and how it can be done reliably. 


OK, I have ranted enough. I too want to hear from those that have done it so as 
to get the positive and learn how. Thats what this is all about.

Sorry for running on but, I hope I was informative in some way as to the how 
what to look out for and what not to do. I would love to get 70, 80 or more 
horsepower out of my VW motor and if I could add a turbo to it and get reliable 
life out of it, I would do it. But, in my opinion,  it might make more sense to 
look at a Corvair that can get 100 hp or one of these 23xx VW motors.

But, lets hear from the ones who know how and have, instead of us (me) who know 
how not to.

By the way, I worked on some turbo spam cans that came into the aviation shop I 
used to work in. But they were very rare. I have to wonder why they were so 
rare.

Jeff York
KR-2 N839BG
Lexington/ Georgetown, Kentucky



- Original Message 
From: "Teate, Stephen" 
To: KRnet 
Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 10:22:28 AM
Subject: RE: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question


"I've already heard some of the negatives from others, but does anyone have a
list of positives?"

Both Jeff Scott and Jeff York have responded to this and made excellent 
comments 
to be considered. I admit I am biased to the positive side of turbo's so I will 
add my opinion.

RE: KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Jon Finley]

"I've already heard some of the negatives from others, but does anyone have a 
list of positives?"


1. Massive power increase potential.
2. Really kewl "glow in the dark" feature (also glows in the light if desired).
3. Helps keep the engine compartment warm.
4. Allows you to add a neato "TURBO" sticker to your cowling.
5. Allows you to add all sorts of new things to your wish list (oxygen system, 
in-flight adjustable prop, electrically heated seats, etc...).

... that's all I can think of but there is probably more.
  Jon Finley 
N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22
http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx 

KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Teate, Stephen]

"I've already heard some of the negatives from others, but does anyone have a
list of positives?"

Both Jeff Scott and Jeff York have responded to this and made excellent 
comments to be considered. I admit I am biased to the positive side of turbo's 
so I will add my opinion.

As far as more piping is concerned this is entirely application specific. I 
have seen installations that used less tubing than a four-into-one exhaust 
header. 

Cooling is by far the most important issue especially for an air cooled engine. 
Installing a turbo without installing a intercooler is a mistake. And since an 
aircooled engine's turbo relies on good oil an oversized oil cooler should be 
installed. Air/fuel ratio is also critical to the life of the engine and your 
ability to control this with a carburetor is just as important and can be done.

Exhaust leaks and weight are also installation dependent. But weight will be 
increased over a NA engine installation which is acceptable when you consider 
your ability to create sea level HP at whatever the critical altitude of you 
turbo turns out to be. In general terms a 100 HP engine at sea level will be 
down to approximately 73 HP at 1 feet where your turbo installation is 
still producing 100 HP. That's 27% more power for whatever your weight increase 
happens to be. Remember that the air is less dense too so the overall drag on 
the aircraft is less at altitude also.

Wear on the motor is application and operational specific. If it is a 
normalizing application there should be no increase in wear on the motor.

Turbos come in all shapes and sizes and can fit all kinds or RPMs. 2400 engine 
RPM should not be a problem. In general small turbos are used in automobiles 
and spool quickly. Not really what you want in an airplane installation so the 
turbo you want in your airplane will probably be larger than you think.

In my opinion turbos are worth it but they are not without issues. These issues 
are not beyond the abilities of anyone who rebuilt their own engine and has at 
least a basic understanding of how they work. 





Stephen Teate
Composite Cooling Solutions, L.P.
4150 International Plaza, Suite 500
Fort Worth, Texas 76109
817-708-9140

**
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KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Jeff York]

I certainly do not have the experience of say Orma Roberts on turbo charging a 
VW motor. But I have done a fair amount of turbo charging on high performance 
and smaller displacement auto engines.

I am a true believer in the benefits of turbo charging an automotive engine and 
have thought a lot of the possible benefits of a turbo aircraft application.

But a combination of concerns have kept me from doing it, especially to a VW 
motor. First I and many others have struggled with high oil temps on our N/A VW 
motors. Add a turbo and I believe you will compound that issue to a level to 
great to overcome. This was something of an issue with automotive apps and 
that's with a turbo that can use large oil coolers and computer based turbo 
timers, advanced air fuel metering to ensure best fuel air delivery and 
therefore better engine life and so on. 

I just hesitate to believe that adding a high temp turbo with its added weight, 
higher oil temps, mechanical waste gate and such is something Im willing to bet 
the life and cost of my VW motor to.

Your thoughts and concerns of the custom exhaust and such would be the least of 
your concerns in my opnion. Its oil temps, accurate air fuel control and boost/ 
waste gate control that would concern me. That and the associated motor life, 
head gasket life and such.

I believe Rayjay had or has a turbo for the VW and its the same one that was 
used by Revmaster. Someone can correct me if im wrong and I don't believe 
Revmaster offers a turbo anymore. But they do have an interesting new 23xx VW 
motor available.
I love turbos. On cars, just not sure how to do it right on an aircraft. 
Especially a VW powered VW.

Jeff York
KR-2 N839BG
Lexington/ Georgetown KY. 

-Original Message-

KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Jeff Scott]

Joe, You have to know that you aren't the first to go down this path.  I would 
suggest that you take a good look at Orma Robbins web site 
, then do a search in the KRNet 
Archives for Orma's comments and problems with regards to his turbo 
installation on his Type 4 engine.  Orma is a long time A&P/IA, so is far from 
new at this, but I think eventually, he found that the problems with the turbo 
on the type 4 were much more than he wanted to deal with.  Your mileage may 
vary, but you may learn the most by looking at the history and failures of one 
that has been down that road before. -Jeff ScottN1213W  -- Original 
Message --

Hi Everyone

Was discussed before I've ruled out "Electric" turbo chargers. I'm going
with a VW Type 4 2400cc engine and I've been on the bench as to turbo or not
to turbo.

So at the end is it worth it? does anyone have more positives to out weigh
my perceived negatives (are these valid concerns?).

Thanks for any and all comments/opinions/facts.

Joe

-

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KR> To Turbo or not to Turbo that is the Question

[Jose Fuentes]

Hi Everyone

Was discussed before I've ruled out "Electric" turbo chargers. I'm going
with a VW Type 4 2400cc engine and I've been on the bench as to turbo or not
to turbo.

Ok, so I would get a bit More boast possibly on takeoff and when I fly high
7k+.

though the negatives seem to out weigh the positives.

More piping to be done (very very custom piping btw, little chance to buy an
exhaust system ready built to bolt and fly).
Hotter heads possibly?
More chance for exhaust leaks
More parts to fix when broken
More weight for everything to support the turbo (including the turbo its
self)
More wear on the motor
How effective is a turbo at 2400+RPM unless its small?

So at the end is it worth it? does anyone have more positives to out weigh
my perceived negatives (are these valid concerns?).

I've heard the 2400cc will deliver 80-90hp what will be the avg increase for
a turbo at such low RPM.

I've already heard some of the negatives from others, but does anyone have a
list of positives?

Just want to paint a whole picture here to make a choice on.

Thanks for any and all comments/opinions/facts.

Joe

-- 
Jose Fuentes
Founding Father (one of and former Vice Prez) of Capital City.NET User's
Group
Former Microsoft MVP
http://blogs.aspadvice.com/jfuentes