KR> Weight Testing

[Larry&Sallie Flesner]

At 05:25 AM 2/13/2012, you wrote:
>The other adjantage of using a concentrated weight you can move is 
>determining the aft most controllable CG. There was a great set of 
>articles in KIT PLANES by Barnaby Wainfan on how to use stick force 
>per g and graph out and extrapolate the point of zero stability.


There is no need to over complicate the issue.  Just add a small 
amount of properly secured weight on multiple test flights and you 
can tell if the C.G. is going aft by the way it flies.  Personally, 
I'd stop adding weight before it got to "neutral stability".  The KR 
stick forces are so light I'm not sure how you'd measure the 
difference between flights.

I got in a 45 minute flight in the 34 degree winter air yesterday.  I 
held it on the deck on takeoff and got 130 mph in 4000 feet!  Cold 
air was a bit bumpy but visibility was unlimited.  Wind right down 
the runway on landing.  Wheels just started rolling on touchdown.  I 
LOVE THE WAY MY KR FLIES !

Larry Flesner

KR> Weight Testing

[gene timpson]

The other adjantage of using a concentrated weight you can move is determining 
the aft most controllable CG. There was a great set of articles in KIT PLANES 
by Barnaby Wainfan on how to use stick force per g and graph out and 
extrapolate the point of zero stability. This will be great info to have and 
I'm sure Mark Langford would tell you that you don't want to be on the wrong 
side of that curve.




From: Dan Heath 
To: 'KRnet'  
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 10:11 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Weight Testing

Thank you.  We have a large lake here where they practice diving.  They may 
even have something they could rent to me.  That may be what I am looking for.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN ? 40th Anniversary
There is a time for building and it is over.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC



-Original Message-
You might try a local dive shop and see if they will loan you some dive 
weights. They come in rigid form which slide onto a nylon belt which can be 
secured with your seatbelt. There are also soft weights which may be easier to 
put in some kind of bag. The lead will be small in size to get the weight you 
need which should help out. The lead will be easy to move around if you find 
the CG has moved to far for comfort. 


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KR> Weight Testing

[Ronald Wright]

From: Dan Heath 
To: 'KRnet'  
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 9:06 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Weight Testing

That part is done, but that does not prove that it will fly correctly.  I
would not put anyone in the passenger seat without knowing for sure that the
plane would operate properly with their weight in that seat.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN ? 40th
Anniversary
There is a time for building and it is over.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC


-Original Message-


Just do it all on a set of scales without ever going flying.  Move the
weights around and do all the calculations you want to with no danger of
crashing..  You can even add/drain fuel to expand the range..  Pick a bunch
of friends of different sizes/heights/weights and load them all in..  


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KR> Weight Testing

[Dan Heath]

Thank you.  We have a large lake here where they practice diving.  They may 
even have something they could rent to me.  That may be what I am looking for.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN ? 40th Anniversary
There is a time for building and it is over.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC



-Original Message-
You might try a local dive shop and see if they will loan you some dive 
weights. They come in rigid form which slide onto a nylon belt which can be 
secured with your seatbelt. There are also soft weights which may be easier to 
put in some kind of bag. The lead will be small in size to get the weight you 
need which should help out. The lead will be easy to move around if you find 
the CG has moved to far for comfort. 

KR> Weight Testing

[Dan Heath]

Yes, that is why I am so concerned about it.  However, the way mine is set
up, it cannot get behind the seat.  That does not mean that other bad things
could not happen unless it is secured at least as good as a passenger would
be.

I think it is a scary and dangerous situation.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il – MVN – 40th
Anniversary
There is a time for building and it is over.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC



-Original Message-


I don't remember his name, but the presumed cause was a ballast bag getting
loose and ending up in the tail section

KR> Weight Testing

[Dan Heath]

That part is done, but that does not prove that it will fly correctly.  I
would not put anyone in the passenger seat without knowing for sure that the
plane would operate properly with their weight in that seat.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il – MVN – 40th
Anniversary
There is a time for building and it is over.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC


-Original Message-


Just do it all on a set of scales without ever going flying.  Move the
weights around and do all the calculations you want to with no danger of
crashing..  You can even add/drain fuel to expand the range..  Pick a bunch
of friends of different sizes/heights/weights and load them all in..  

KR> Weight Testing

[Ronald Wright]

Just do it all on a set of scales without ever going flying.  Move the weights 
around and do all the calculations you want to with no danger of crashing..  
You can even add/drain fuel to expand the range..  Pick a bunch of friends of 
different sizes/heights/weights and load them all in..  Simple and easy to do..
 
Ron

From: Peter Diffey 
To: gene timpson ; KRnet  
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Weight Testing

A word of caution, I recall a few years ago a kr pilot was killed doing a test 
with ballast.

I don't remember his name, but the presumed cause was a ballast bag getting 
loose and ending up in the tail section


-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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KR> Weight Testing

[Peter Diffey]

A word of caution, I recall a few years ago a kr pilot was killed doing a test 
with ballast.

I don't remember his name, but the presumed cause was a ballast bag getting 
loose and ending up in the tail section


-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

KR> Weight Testing

[gene timpson]

You might try a local dive shop and see if they will loan you some dive 
weights. They come in rigid form which slide onto a nylon belt which can be 
secured with your seatbelt. There are also soft weights which may be easier to 
put in some kind of bag. The lead will be small in size to get the weight you 
need which should help out. The lead will be easy to move around if you find 
the CG has moved to far for comfort.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
GT



From: Dan Heath 
To: 'KRnet'  
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 5:40 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Weight Testing

I have the passenger moment, as you said, given the same size and
proportioned person, it is the same as the pilot.  Actually, I used two
others along with me and averaged the moment to come up with the passenger
station.  Now, that certainly won't be the same as the artificial weight,
but I will just have to do the best I can because I am not about to weigh it
again with full fuel and passenger weight.

My big concern is being able to secure whatever I can find.  I wish they
sold small bags of something for weight that I could put in a duffle bag or
something like that so it can really be secured.  Let things get a little
out of hand on landing and this artificial weight could cause a disaster.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN ? 40th
Anniversary
There is a time for building and it is over.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC




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KR> Weight Testing

[Dan Heath]

I have the passenger moment, as you said, given the same size and
proportioned person, it is the same as the pilot.  Actually, I used two
others along with me and averaged the moment to come up with the passenger
station.  Now, that certainly won't be the same as the artificial weight,
but I will just have to do the best I can because I am not about to weigh it
again with full fuel and passenger weight.

My big concern is being able to secure whatever I can find.  I wish they
sold small bags of something for weight that I could put in a duffle bag or
something like that so it can really be secured.  Let things get a little
out of hand on landing and this artificial weight could cause a disaster.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il – MVN – 40th
Anniversary
There is a time for building and it is over.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

KR> Weight Testing

[Larry&Sallie Flesner]

At 11:36 AM 2/12/2012, you wrote:
>Thanks, but what weight?  What can be secured?
>
>Again, the WHAT and HOW to secure it, is the issue that I cannot get an
>answer to, even from the RV community that we have here.


Sand bags sold to put in the back of your pickup truck for weight in 
the winter or ready mix cement bags placed inside plastic bags to 
eliminate any spillage work fine.  Secure with lap and shoulder 
belts.  You won't be doing aerobatics so keeping them from shifting 
about is not all that difficult.  You can put the KR  on  scales 
and  toss in a bag or two to determine the exact moment arm for the 
weight being added.  With that info you can determine what the max 
weight you can add at that station before you go out the aft C.G. location.

Or, you could just throw one of your "Lard butt" buddies in the right 
seat and see if it will fly. :-) :-)

Larry Flesner

KR> Weight Testing

[whitea...@comcast.net]

Dan:  Your stall speed can be calculated (well, estimated) without flight tests 
by looking at the basic formula:  L = W = 1/2 rho V^2 x S x Clmax .  Without 
going into too much detail, the W (weight) in this formula affects the stall 
speed linearly.  The RR website lists the KR2 stall speed as 52 mph, which will 
have been established at sea level and 900 pounds.  If you increase your W by 
33%, your stall speed will increase by 33% to about 69 mph.  You have to ask 
yourself; "If the engine quits, do I want to be maneuvering to land in a 
pasture at 90 mph?, or 68 mph?" 

  

Structure strength is an entirely different issue, Dan.  Most homebuilts are 
designed to +6 and -4 maneuvering gs and gust loads are simply ignored.  I have 
no idea if the KR series was designed to these limits.  You might consider that 
a 6g airplane, overloaded by 33% is only a 4.5g airplane while maneuvering in 
still air.  The gust load capacity, which we know nothing about, is also 
reduced accordingly.  I hope this helps.  Willard 



- Original Message -




From: "Dan Heath" < danrh @ windstream .net> 
To: " KRnet " < krnet @ mylist .net> 
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 12:36:16 PM 
Subject: RE: KR> Weight Testing 

Thanks, but what weight?  What can be secured?  Also, stall tests. I 
don't do stalls.  They scare the crap outa me.  I bring it to the "mush" 
point and that is good enough for me. 

Again, the WHAT and HOW to secure it, is the issue that I cannot get an 
answer to, even from the RV community that we have here. 

See N64KR at http :// KRBuilder .org - Then click on the pics  
See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN ? 40th 
Anniversary 
There is a time for building and it is over. 
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC 


-Original Message- 

and secured with seat belts is not distributed the same as a 
passenger.   


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KR> Weight Testing

[Jeff Scott]

If you're not comfortable with flying at 1200# to start with, work your way up 
to it using 20 or 25# increments. Doesn't matter what you use for weight as 
long as you can secure it. I would suggest duct taping whatever ballast you use 
inside a trash bag, then strapping it into the seat belt or place part of it on 
the floor in front of the front spar. You'll find that CG is much more 
important to the way the plane flies than the gross weight, so pay very close 
attention to your CG. You also want to test as much of your CG range at gross 
weight as is reasonable to do. Start out with the CG forward, then work your 
way back incrementally. Depending on what your tail configuration is, you'll 
find the elevator will start getting a bit more sensitive as the CG creeps 
back. Don't go beyond your comfort level. That would establish the most aft CG 
you are willing to fly. I will tell you that while the plane is a tad bit more 
sluggish getting off the ground and climbing at 1200# gross, it still flies 
quite well. By sluggish getting off the runway and in climb, that is only in 
comparison to my KR flying at a lighter weight. Keep in mind that I am starting 
out above 7000' and 1200# and still out climb my next door neighbor's SR-20 
Cirrus and most of the Mooneys on the field.

 FWIW, my O-200 powered KR seems to match up very nicely with the SR-20. If we 
are both running full throttle, I climb a bit better than him, but we are just 
about a dead even match at cruise. 

 Jeff Scott
 Los Alamos, NM

- Original Message -
From: Dan Heath
Sent: 02/12/12 06:05 AM
To: 'KRnet'
Subject: KR> Weight Testing

 I believe that to satisfy your gross weight, you must test the plane to that 
gross weight along with a W&B of the plane at the time of the test. I still 
need to test my plane to the 1200 # gross weight that I have arbitrarily set 
for it. I tried to go to the EAA site for help, but they have so many log ins 
for so many different parts of the web site that I could not find anything. So 
my question to all you who are currently flying your KR and have established 
your Gross Weight, how did you test for that weight? I think it is a very scary 
thing to fill your cabin with heavy junk, so I know there must be a safe way, 
but I have never heard it discussed. See N64KR at <http://krbuilder.org/> 
http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2012 - KR 
Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN - 40th Anniversary There is a time for 
building and it is over. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC 
___ Search the KRnet Archives at 
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KR> Weight Testing

[Dan Heath]

Thanks, but what weight?  What can be secured?  Also, stall tests. I
don't do stalls.  They scare the crap outa me.  I bring it to the "mush"
point and that is good enough for me.

Again, the WHAT and HOW to secure it, is the issue that I cannot get an
answer to, even from the RV community that we have here.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il – MVN – 40th
Anniversary
There is a time for building and it is over.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC


-Original Message-

and secured with seat belts is not distributed the same as a 
passenger.  

KR> Weight Testing

[Larry&Sallie Flesner]

At 07:05 AM 2/12/2012, you wrote:
>So my question to all you who are currently flying your KR and have
>established your Gross Weight, how did you test for that weight?
++

Add weight, say 20 pounds at a time, and make a test 
flight.  Whatever you use for weight should be secured to prevent any 
shifting of position.  Also, realize that weight added to the seat 
and secured with seat belts is not distributed the same as a 
passenger.  A passenger's leg weight is forward of the seat and upper 
body weight is slightly aft of where your butt rests in the 
seat.  Before you do any test flights, do the math on W&B to insure 
that, with the weight of a passenger, the C.G. stays within the 
envelope.  Know what the mathematical limit for a passengers weight 
is and approach it with caution.  Use the moment arm of the pilot to 
establish the moment arm of the passenger as they would be one and 
the same with a fixed seat position.  Never allow whatever weight is 
used to shift rearward.  An out of C.G. to the rear is the worst 
possible flight condition.  IMHO, I would never do stall tests with a 
rear most C.G. without a parachute.  I'd rather placard the aircraft 
to "prohibit stalls when carrying a passenger".

Larry Flesner

KR> Weight Testing

[Dave_A]

Sandbags strapped into the co-pilot seat spot, full fuel & a full 35lb 
suitcase (or whatever your baggage limit is) in your baggage area is 
probably the most realistic method I can think of

I bought a program called 'winn balance' to do my initial W&B stuff, 
when I get to that point... It costs $14.99, and uses the readout from 3 
bathroom scales to compute W&B numbers.

On 2/12/2012 5:35 PM, Dan Heath wrote:
> I believe that to satisfy your gross weight, you must test the plane to that
> gross weight along with a W&B of the plane at the time of the test.  I still
> need to test my plane to the 1200 # gross weight that I have arbitrarily set
> for it.  I tried to go to the EAA site for help, but they have so many log
> ins for so many different parts of the web site that I could not find
> anything.
>
>
>
> So my question to all you who are currently flying your KR and have
> established your Gross Weight, how did you test for that weight?  I think it
> is a very scary thing to fill your cabin with heavy junk, so I know there
> must be a safe way, but I have never heard it discussed.
>
>
>
>
>
> See N64KR at  http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on
> the pics
>
> See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN - 40th
> Anniversary
>
> There is a time for building and it is over.
>
> Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://mylist.net/private/krnet/
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Weight Testing

[Dan Heath]

I believe that to satisfy your gross weight, you must test the plane to that
gross weight along with a W&B of the plane at the time of the test.  I still
need to test my plane to the 1200 # gross weight that I have arbitrarily set
for it.  I tried to go to the EAA site for help, but they have so many log
ins for so many different parts of the web site that I could not find
anything.



So my question to all you who are currently flying your KR and have
established your Gross Weight, how did you test for that weight?  I think it
is a very scary thing to fill your cabin with heavy junk, so I know there
must be a safe way, but I have never heard it discussed.





See N64KR at   http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on
the pics 

See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN - 40th
Anniversary

There is a time for building and it is over.

Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

KR> Weight testing

[Frank Ross]

Sand or salt can get loose and cause problems just as
a cement block or weights can. You do not want even 25
pounds of loose sand sliding to the rear of the plane
when you put the nose up. 
You could make "rope dummies" like we used in
air-rescue training. That way you can make different
size dummies and strap them in real good. 
We used heavy rope, wound in figure-of-eight with
additional rope wrapped around to make legs, arms,
torso and even the head. I'm talking THICK rope. When
we had the dummy completed we put an old flight suit
on it, but you could probably use an old pair of
overalls, and could lift it, carry it, put it in the
basket or on the hoist and pull it into the
helicopter. Works good. You'd be surprised how heavy
these things can be in the same size as a human. 
Maybe not as heavy as Jerry or me...
Good luck,
Frank

--- Dan Heath  wrote:

> You are absolutely right. It is dangerous. I look
> back at when I tested the
> Little Beast, and I am ashamed to tell you that I
> used concrete blocks.
> Every time I look back on that, it scares me. To
> think that I could have
> used such bad judgement. What if I had suffered a
> rough landing and those
> things had started having a mind of their own? What
> a horrible thought. I am
> going to put sand in a pair of pants and secure it
> with the seat belt. Then
> I am going to add a shirt sewn and filled with sand
> and have it secured with
> the seat and shoulder harness. I am going to tie the
> legs and arms together
> so they won't flop around so much. The only thing is
> that I need to get as
> much weight as Jerry and that is going to be hard to
> do. 
> 
> See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on
> the pics 
> 
> See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
> 
> There is a time for building and a time for FLYING
> and the time for building
> is over.
> 
> Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
> 
> ---Original Message---
> 
> Every time I see someone on the list talk about
> 
> sandbags in the cockpit I always worry about the
> darn
> 
> things shifting around and as we all know it doesn't
> 
> take much shifting around, not to mention a loose 50
> 
> pound bag of sand, in a KR to make things
> interesting
> 
> for the pilot.
> 
> 
> ___
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> http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 


Frank Ross, 
EAA Chapter 35,
San Geronimo, TX
RAF Lakenheath, Suffolk, England, UK
Visit my photo album at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/alamokr2



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KR> Weight testing

[Orma]

My problem with a dummy that weighs 200 is that I could not lift it into the 
plane.   I always tied down my bags of salt, using the seat belt and 
shoulder harness and extra rope to secure the load.
Orma
Southfield, MI
KR-2  N110LR  1984
See Tweety at http://www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com
See other KR spces at www.kr-2.aviation-mechanics.com/krinfo.htm