Re: KR> trim tabs.

[Flesner via KRnet]

 If I recall correctly, this photo is the trim tab setting I need for 
level flight at about 150 mph indicated, standard tail surfaces, 24 inch 
longer fuselage and the c.g. was probably very close to middle of range 
as it is on most flights with me solo and about half fuel.


++

This photo from bottom might give better scale.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8yrzf99baj1zeg/IMG_8612.JPG?dl=0

Larry Flesner


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Re: KR> trim tabs.

[Flesner via KRnet]

On 5/18/2020 5:54 PM, shafferj455js--- via KRnet wrote:

Larry, and Mike, My original (short) KR-2 always needed forward stick
input above 155 mph indicated. My cockpit adjustable ,elevator trim
tab did not have enough authority above 155.


+

Looks like the trim tab size was designed a bit small for fast KR's with 
the "angle of Incidence" of the horizontal stabilizer as called for in 
the plans.  The 2S and my KR at 24 inch stretch have more "arm" so more 
trim authority with the same size tab.  The 2S also has more elevator as 
I recall.  Mine is standard size.  If I recall correctly, this photo is 
the trim tab setting I need for level flight at about 150 mph indicated, 
standard tail surfaces, 24 inch longer fuselage and the c.g. was 
probably very close to middle of range as it is on most flights with me 
solo and about half fuel.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/dn8dgb5y836j3um/IMG_8611.JPG?dl=0

No way to get horizontal set correctly for all phases of flight without 
it being adjustable as in early Pipers.  Ideal setup would be no pitch 
trim needed for cruise and usual C.G. location and adjustable tab for 
all other speeds.  Trouble is the C.G. is constantly changing during 
flight, primarily to fuel burn.


Guess it as close as you can on building (follow plans?) and hope you 
have enough adjustable tab for all flight modes.


Larry Flesner


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Re: KR> trim tabs.

[shafferj455js--- via KRnet]

Larry, and Mike, My original (short) KR-2 always needed forward stick
input above 155 mph indicated. My cockpit adjustable ,elevator trim
tab did not have enough authority above 155. It would however hold
altitude up to and including 155. Al Campbell told me he also had to
hold the nose down similarly.
John ShafferKr builder twiceFremont Ohio

-From: "Flesner via KRnet" 
To: "Mike Sylvester via KRnet"
Cc: "Flesner"
Sent: Monday May 18 2020 6:28:37PM
Subject: Re: KR> trim tabs.

On 5/18/2020 5:18 PM, Mike Sylvester via KRnet wrote:
 > With no trim she is definitely dropping the nose...…

 +++

 Strictly a function of the "angle of incidence" of the horizontal 
 stabilizer. Mine is the same. I wonder if the original shorter KR2 
 with VW and maybe a slightly slower cruise is the same or if Ken just

 guessed wrong by one or one and a half degrees on the tail. I guess 
 better to error with nose down than nose up.

 Larry Flesner

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Re: KR> trim tabs.

[Flesner via KRnet]

On 5/18/2020 5:18 PM, Mike Sylvester via KRnet wrote:

With no trim she is definitely dropping the nose...…


+++

Strictly a function of the "angle of incidence" of the horizontal 
stabilizer.  Mine is the same.  I wonder if the original shorter KR2 
with VW and maybe a slightly slower cruise is the same or if Ken just 
guessed wrong by one or one and a half degrees on the tail.  I guess 
better to error with nose down than nose up.


Larry Flesner


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KR> trim tabs.

[Mike Sylvester via KRnet]

It looks like I got very lucky in the building process because 236MS flies 
wings level. I wish I could say that about the up and down but the internal 
trim system takes care of that. With no trim she is definitely dropping the 
nose...…

Mike Sylvester
kr2s builder
Birmingham,AL.

Cell no.205-966-3854

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Re: KR> Trim Tabs

[Peter via KRnet]

Wing incidence is definately out. Tab should go on aileron, up to gain lift, 
down to lose lift. Dont put it on wing as this is not very powerfull.

ZK KRT
- Original Message - 
From: "donald january via KRnet" 

To: "KRnet" 
Cc: "donald january" 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Trim Tabs



Maybe wing incidents is out of line?

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Gary via KRnet 
wrote:


On the subject of trim, how do you trim for heavy wing?  Hands off stick
and plane banks right (pretty significant).  Does trim tab on aileron 
work
like an elevator trim?  Or does wing trim need to go on fixed part of 
wing

rather than movable aileron which might just be offset by opposite side?
Gary

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 8:58 AM, Tommy Waymack via KRnet <
krnet@list.krnet.org> wrote:
>
> Some are so sensitive you can change trim by moving your body.Trim tabs
are
> approved.Tommy W.
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&;
utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Pierre Douglas via KRnet <
> krnet@list.krnet.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Joe,
>>
>> In mine the up elevator reason was nose heavy due to nose gear and 
>> thus

CG
>> a bit too far forward.
>> If you've built the tail fin for a counter clockwise engine you will
need
>> slight right rudder till you've gained speed and your slightly skew
off-set
>> (+/- 1/2" L/E bottom to top and T/E) tail fin take control. If your 
>> tail

>> fin was built neutral then you will need a lot more rudder all the way
>> through.
>>
>> Can't think of any other reasons and I may have the directions 
>> wrong:-)

>> It's been awhile since I saw my KR:-(
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Pierre
>>
>>>
>>>> Subject: KR> Trim Tabs
>>>> Message-ID: <5947f14a.04ed0d0a.cc627.0...@mx.google.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>
>>>> Dear Aviators,
>>>> I find that i require significant trim tabs. ?Did i miss align
>>> something? ?Is there something that i can do? Is this normal?
>>>> Significant up elevator and some right rudder for comfortable flight
at
>>> 120mph. ?
>>>> Joe Nunley?Baker Florida?
>>>
>>>
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Re: KR> Trim Tabs

[Mark Langford via KRnet]

"Gary" wrote:

>> On the subject of trim, how do you trim for heavy wing?  Hands off 
stick and plane banks right (pretty significant).  Does trim tab on 
aileron work like an elevator trim?  Or does wing trim need to go on 
fixed part of wing rather than movable aileron which might just be 
offset by opposite side?<<


I'm pretty sure that an aileron is more effective and causes less drag 
than a tab on the wing itself, especially if the aileron is practically 
full length of the wing...like the KR2.  This could be easily tested by 
setting up a bent tab up on the aileron, and then moving it to the wing 
without changing the bend angle. Both of my trim tabs on N891JF are 
mounted with number four "through" screws, nuts and washers.  And of 
course, if it is decided to put the tab on the wing itself rather than 
the aileron, it should be located out near the tip to get maximum moment 
(leverage from the aircraft centerline) for the same amount of drag.


See 
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-communities-and-interests/homebuilt-aircraft-and-homebuilt-aircraft-kits/resources-for-while-youre-building/building-articles/control-systems/rigging-and-trimming-part-2 
for more on trim tabs.


Mark Langford
m...@n56ml.com
http://www.n56ml.com


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Re: KR> Trim Tabs

[donald january via KRnet]

Maybe wing incidents is out of line?

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Gary via KRnet 
wrote:

> On the subject of trim, how do you trim for heavy wing?  Hands off stick
> and plane banks right (pretty significant).  Does trim tab on aileron work
> like an elevator trim?  Or does wing trim need to go on fixed part of wing
> rather than movable aileron which might just be offset by opposite side?
> Gary
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jun 21, 2017, at 8:58 AM, Tommy Waymack via KRnet <
> krnet@list.krnet.org> wrote:
> >
> > Some are so sensitive you can change trim by moving your body.Trim tabs
> are
> > approved.Tommy W.
> >
> > <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&;
> utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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> >
> > On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Pierre Douglas via KRnet <
> > krnet@list.krnet.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Joe,
> >>
> >> In mine the up elevator reason was nose heavy due to nose gear and thus
> CG
> >> a bit too far forward.
> >> If you've built the tail fin for a counter clockwise engine you will
> need
> >> slight right rudder till you've gained speed and your slightly skew
> off-set
> >> (+/- 1/2" L/E bottom to top and T/E) tail fin take control. If your tail
> >> fin was built neutral then you will need a lot more rudder all the way
> >> through.
> >>
> >> Can't think of any other reasons and I may have the directions wrong:-)
> >> It's been awhile since I saw my KR:-(
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Pierre
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> Subject: KR> Trim Tabs
> >>>> Message-ID: <5947f14a.04ed0d0a.cc627.0...@mx.google.com>
> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >>>
> >>>> Dear Aviators,
> >>>> I find that i require significant trim tabs. ?Did i miss align
> >>> something? ?Is there something that i can do? Is this normal?
> >>>> Significant up elevator and some right rudder for comfortable flight
> at
> >>> 120mph. ?
> >>>> Joe Nunley?Baker Florida?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ___
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Re: KR> Trim Tabs

[Gary via KRnet]

On the subject of trim, how do you trim for heavy wing?  Hands off stick and 
plane banks right (pretty significant).  Does trim tab on aileron work like an 
elevator trim?  Or does wing trim need to go on fixed part of wing rather than 
movable aileron which might just be offset by opposite side?
Gary

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 8:58 AM, Tommy Waymack via KRnet  
> wrote:
> 
> Some are so sensitive you can change trim by moving your body.Trim tabs are
> approved.Tommy W.
> 
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> 
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Pierre Douglas via KRnet <
> krnet@list.krnet.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Joe,
>> 
>> In mine the up elevator reason was nose heavy due to nose gear and thus CG
>> a bit too far forward.
>> If you've built the tail fin for a counter clockwise engine you will need
>> slight right rudder till you've gained speed and your slightly skew off-set
>> (+/- 1/2" L/E bottom to top and T/E) tail fin take control. If your tail
>> fin was built neutral then you will need a lot more rudder all the way
>> through.
>> 
>> Can't think of any other reasons and I may have the directions wrong:-)
>> It's been awhile since I saw my KR:-(
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Pierre
>> 
>>> 
>>>> Subject: KR> Trim Tabs
>>>> Message-ID: <5947f14a.04ed0d0a.cc627.0...@mx.google.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>> 
>>>> Dear Aviators,
>>>> I find that i require significant trim tabs. ?Did i miss align
>>> something? ?Is there something that i can do? Is this normal?
>>>> Significant up elevator and some right rudder for comfortable flight at
>>> 120mph. ?
>>>> Joe Nunley?Baker Florida?
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: KR> Trim Tabs

[Tommy Waymack via KRnet]

Some are so sensitive you can change trim by moving your body.Trim tabs are
approved.Tommy W.

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On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Pierre Douglas via KRnet <
krnet@list.krnet.org> wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> In mine the up elevator reason was nose heavy due to nose gear and thus CG
> a bit too far forward.
> If you've built the tail fin for a counter clockwise engine you will need
> slight right rudder till you've gained speed and your slightly skew off-set
> (+/- 1/2" L/E bottom to top and T/E) tail fin take control. If your tail
> fin was built neutral then you will need a lot more rudder all the way
> through.
>
> Can't think of any other reasons and I may have the directions wrong:-)
> It's been awhile since I saw my KR:-(
>
> Cheers,
> Pierre
>
> >
> > > Subject: KR> Trim Tabs
> > > Message-ID: <5947f14a.04ed0d0a.cc627.0...@mx.google.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> > > Dear Aviators,
> > > I find that i require significant trim tabs. ?Did i miss align
> > something? ?Is there something that i can do? Is this normal?
> > > Significant up elevator and some right rudder for comfortable flight at
> > 120mph. ?
> > > Joe Nunley?Baker Florida?
> >
> >
> ___
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KR> Trim Tabs

[Pierre Douglas via KRnet]

Hi Joe,

In mine the up elevator reason was nose heavy due to nose gear and thus CG
a bit too far forward.
If you've built the tail fin for a counter clockwise engine you will need
slight right rudder till you've gained speed and your slightly skew off-set
(+/- 1/2" L/E bottom to top and T/E) tail fin take control. If your tail
fin was built neutral then you will need a lot more rudder all the way
through.

Can't think of any other reasons and I may have the directions wrong:-)
It's been awhile since I saw my KR:-(

Cheers,
Pierre

>
> > Subject: KR> Trim Tabs
> > Message-ID: <5947f14a.04ed0d0a.cc627.0...@mx.google.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> > Dear Aviators,
> > I find that i require significant trim tabs. ?Did i miss align
> something? ?Is there something that i can do? Is this normal?
> > Significant up elevator and some right rudder for comfortable flight at
> 120mph. ?
> > Joe Nunley?Baker Florida?
>
>
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Re: KR> Trim Tabs

[bjoenunley via KRnet]

Donald said,"How about thrust line?bunch of thing's to look at.. 
++Thrust line is simething i can work with.  Any sugestions of how 
that would work?  I can easily shim the engine mount.  Has anyone done this?


Joe Nunley Baker Florida 


null
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Re: KR> Trim Tabs

[donald january via KRnet]

Each day is a different flying situation. if your elevator is trimmed up in
cruise a lot depends on fuel amount.(header tank and wing tank's?) Maybe
wing insidince is out? How about thrust line?bunch of thing's to look at

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:24 PM, Rob Schmitt via KRnet <
krnet@list.krnet.org> wrote:

> Joe,
>
> You forgot about the one for keeping the wings level.
>
> But seriously, I do have 3.  I have a ground adjustable elevator tab with
> it deflected down.  It was set up for 1 person flight and I adjusted it
> during phase I testing. I use a bungee cord on the stick for when I have a
> passenger.  I also have a rudder tab. It is fixed, also set during phase I
> testing.  And yes, I also have a tab on my left wing to keep the wings
> level (as much as practical) when my hand is not on the stick.
>
> I do not consider this a major flaw in the construction, we are home
> builders after all.  I could not figure out where I made the construction
> errors to cause any of these.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob Schmitt
> N1852Z
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-boun...@list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of bjoenunley
> via KRnet
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 10:44 AM
> To: KRnet 
> Cc: bjoenunley 
> Subject: KR> Trim Tabs
>
> Dear Aviators,
> I find that i require significant trim tabs.  Did i miss align something?
> Is there something that i can do? Is this normal?
> Significant up elevator and some right rudder for comfortable flight at
> 120mph. Joe Nunley Baker Florida
>
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Re: KR> Trim Tabs

[Rob Schmitt via KRnet]

Joe,

You forgot about the one for keeping the wings level.  

But seriously, I do have 3.  I have a ground adjustable elevator tab with it 
deflected down.  It was set up for 1 person flight and I adjusted it during 
phase I testing. I use a bungee cord on the stick for when I have a passenger.  
I also have a rudder tab. It is fixed, also set during phase I testing.  And 
yes, I also have a tab on my left wing to keep the wings level (as much as 
practical) when my hand is not on the stick.

I do not consider this a major flaw in the construction, we are home builders 
after all.  I could not figure out where I made the construction errors to 
cause any of these. 

Thanks,

Rob Schmitt
N1852Z


-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-boun...@list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of bjoenunley via 
KRnet
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 10:44 AM
To: KRnet 
Cc: bjoenunley 
Subject: KR> Trim Tabs

Dear Aviators,
I find that i require significant trim tabs.  Did i miss align something?  Is 
there something that i can do? Is this normal?
Significant up elevator and some right rudder for comfortable flight at 120mph. 
Joe Nunley Baker Florida 

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KR> Trim Tabs

[bjoenunley via KRnet]

Dear Aviators,
I find that i require significant trim tabs.  Did i miss align something?  Is 
there something that i can do? Is this normal?
Significant up elevator and some right rudder for comfortable flight at 120mph. 
 
Joe Nunley Baker Florida 

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KR> Trim Tabs

[Dan Heath]

Sure, many of us have to do that.  It is because the plane flies either nose
or tail heavy, and the trim tab alone is not enough to get it to fly level.
So we add a fixed tab to get the plane to fly near level and adjust out the
rest with the adjustable tab.  Mine is nose heavy, on purpose ( maybe a
little too much ).  Someone suggested adding a little weight in the tail as
a more aerodynamic way to balance out the flight attitude.  I may try that
someday when I am installing the Corvair.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you at the 2010 - KR Gathering in Richmond, Ky - I39
There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for Flying
has begun.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

-Original Message-
From: krnet-bounces+danrh=windstream@mylist.net
[mailto:krnet-bounces+danrh=windstream@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Dave
Dunwoodie
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 7:20 PM
To: kr...@mylist.net
Subject: KR> Trim Tabs

In examining my KR2 for electric elevator trim, I was reminded to ask 
you guys:

There is a 9" by 2.5" added trim tab on the starboard side of the 
elevator, fixed and bent down at roughly 30 degrees.

Can anybody offer ideas why the builder would have done this?

Thanks.

Dave.


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KR> Trim Tabs

[Dave Dunwoodie]

In examining my KR2 for electric elevator trim, I was reminded to ask 
you guys:

There is a 9" by 2.5" added trim tab on the starboard side of the 
elevator, fixed and bent down at roughly 30 degrees.

Can anybody offer ideas why the builder would have done this?

Thanks.

Dave.

KR> Trim Tabs

[Stephen Teate]

Last night I was working on my elevator trim tab. It is the stock size
and location and looks like I will get between 20 & 25 degrees of
deflection each way. Is this enough?



Thanks in advance,

Stephen

Paradise, Texas

KR> Trim Tabs

[Larry&Sallie Flesner]

At 08:48 AM 4/17/2006, you wrote:
>Last night I was working on my elevator trim tab. It is the stock size
>and location and looks like I will get between 20 & 25 degrees of
>deflection each way. Is this enough?
>Stephen


If your CG is correct, that should work.

Larry Flesner

KR>Trim tabs

[JIM VANCE]

Both the Learjet 25 and the AC-47 I flew in Viet Nam had free floating 
ailerons.  The control wheel was connected by cables to aileron trim tabs.  The 
controls were very effective.  But that is the reason that the Lear was limited 
to 0.80 Mach--aileron buzz was quite spectacular above the Mach limit.

Of course, the aileron trim tabs on my AC-47 were about the size of the 
elevators on a KR.

With the near-neutral stability of a KR, the effectiveness of the trim tab is 
small on a properly functioning elevator.  But, it is the difference between 
continuously correcting the aircraft attitude and getting a few seconds to do 
other things in the cockpit.

Jim Vance

va...@claflinwildcats.com