Re: [kubernetes-users] Share the IPC namespace between pods

2017-11-09 Thread zoltan . zvara 
Rodrigo you are correct, that results in a co-location hell. Also that requires 
careful calculations ahead of time to ensure that you can co-locate the 
corresponding data partitions (in case of a 1:N, where we have a high-demand 
database) at all times. Even in case of node failures. Moreover if you happen 
not to be able to co-locate a partition, on a synchronous call you might have a 
straggler partition.

> We don't have a general mechanism yet for sharing namespaces 
across pods.  we may get there some day, but the complexity has to be 
justified pretty broadly.

Thanks Tim, what would you suggest for a 1:N scenario with the curse of demand 
that we would like to lose that one order of magnitude in DB access?

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:12:10 PM UTC+1, Tim Hockin wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:27 AM,   wrote:
> > We measured that we lose at least one order of magnitude in terms of 
> > latency, which is our key KPI in this setup.
> 
> If you are moving from a model where your apps were guaranteed to be
> colocated into Kubernetes, you are going to have a rough trip.
> Kubernetes starts by assuming that everything speaks over the network.
> 
> > Pods are not always on the same host, but we play with co-location a lot.
> > 1:1 mainly.
> 
> Consider bundling them into the same Pod?  Pods share IPC and are
> co-scheduled.  In some sense, a pod is a replacement for a VM.
> 
> Alternatively, you could consider the `hostIPC` field - it will put
> your pods in the machine's IPC space, wherein they can find each
> other.  We don't have a general mechanism yet for sharing namespaces
> across pods.  we may get there some day, but the complexity has to be
> justified pretty broadly.
> 
> > Matthias, Tim, I will get back to you with a decent benchmark on our 
> > metals. Thanks so far for your kind help!
> >
> > Zoltán
> >
> > On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 8:27:52 PM UTC+1, Tim Hockin wrote:
> >> Are you concerned about perf because you measured it?  Or because you
> >> suspect it might become a thing later?
> >>
> >> Are you really sure that your pods will ALWAYS be on the same host?
> >>
> >> Are your pods 1:1 or 1:N relationships?
> >>
> >> Could these highly-connected pods just be one bigger pod?
> >>
> >> To be sure, there's some overhead in networking containers today, but
> >> you haven't really explained your problem.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:08 AM,   wrote:
> >> > Thanks Tim,
> >> >
> >> > Do you know of any technique(s) to speed up the network between pods 
> >> > (probably co-located onto the same machine)? Shared memory communication 
> >> > seems to be a good candidate within pods.
> >> >
> >> > On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:42:39 PM UTC+1, Tim Hockin wrote:
> >> >> Pods should make very few assumptions about other pods.  Sharing IPC
> >> >> implies a high level of affinity, at which point I would question why
> >> >> they are two different pods in the first place.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:22 AM,   wrote:
> >> >> > Currently it is possible to share (shared memory) IPC namespace 
> >> >> > within pods, but not possible to share between pods.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Is this something that will be supported in the future? Or goes 
> >> >> > against the very design of Kubernetes?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > What is the general opinion of the Community on this?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thanks,
> >> >> > Z
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> >> >> > Groups "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
> >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
> >> >> > send an email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >> >> > To post to this group, send email to 
> >> >> > kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
> >> >> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
> >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> >> > Groups "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> >> > an email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >> > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
> >> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
> > For more options, visit

Re: [kubernetes-users] Share the IPC namespace between pods

2017-11-09 Thread 'Tim Hockin' via Kubernetes user discussion and Q 
On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:27 AM,   wrote:
> We measured that we lose at least one order of magnitude in terms of latency, 
> which is our key KPI in this setup.

If you are moving from a model where your apps were guaranteed to be
colocated into Kubernetes, you are going to have a rough trip.
Kubernetes starts by assuming that everything speaks over the network.

> Pods are not always on the same host, but we play with co-location a lot.
> 1:1 mainly.

Consider bundling them into the same Pod?  Pods share IPC and are
co-scheduled.  In some sense, a pod is a replacement for a VM.

Alternatively, you could consider the `hostIPC` field - it will put
your pods in the machine's IPC space, wherein they can find each
other.  We don't have a general mechanism yet for sharing namespaces
across pods.  we may get there some day, but the complexity has to be
justified pretty broadly.

> Matthias, Tim, I will get back to you with a decent benchmark on our metals. 
> Thanks so far for your kind help!
>
> Zoltán
>
> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 8:27:52 PM UTC+1, Tim Hockin wrote:
>> Are you concerned about perf because you measured it?  Or because you
>> suspect it might become a thing later?
>>
>> Are you really sure that your pods will ALWAYS be on the same host?
>>
>> Are your pods 1:1 or 1:N relationships?
>>
>> Could these highly-connected pods just be one bigger pod?
>>
>> To be sure, there's some overhead in networking containers today, but
>> you haven't really explained your problem.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:08 AM,   wrote:
>> > Thanks Tim,
>> >
>> > Do you know of any technique(s) to speed up the network between pods 
>> > (probably co-located onto the same machine)? Shared memory communication 
>> > seems to be a good candidate within pods.
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:42:39 PM UTC+1, Tim Hockin wrote:
>> >> Pods should make very few assumptions about other pods.  Sharing IPC
>> >> implies a high level of affinity, at which point I would question why
>> >> they are two different pods in the first place.
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:22 AM,   wrote:
>> >> > Currently it is possible to share (shared memory) IPC namespace within 
>> >> > pods, but not possible to share between pods.
>> >> >
>> >> > Is this something that will be supported in the future? Or goes against 
>> >> > the very design of Kubernetes?
>> >> >
>> >> > What is the general opinion of the Community on this?
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks,
>> >> > Z
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> >> > Groups "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
>> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> >> > an email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
>> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> > "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> > email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [kubernetes-users] Share the IPC namespace between pods

2017-11-09 Thread zoltan . zvara 
We measured that we lose at least one order of magnitude in terms of latency, 
which is our key KPI in this setup.

Pods are not always on the same host, but we play with co-location a lot.
1:1 mainly.

Matthias, Tim, I will get back to you with a decent benchmark on our metals. 
Thanks so far for your kind help!

Zoltán

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 8:27:52 PM UTC+1, Tim Hockin wrote:
> Are you concerned about perf because you measured it?  Or because you
> suspect it might become a thing later?
> 
> Are you really sure that your pods will ALWAYS be on the same host?
> 
> Are your pods 1:1 or 1:N relationships?
> 
> Could these highly-connected pods just be one bigger pod?
> 
> To be sure, there's some overhead in networking containers today, but
> you haven't really explained your problem.
> 
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:08 AM,   wrote:
> > Thanks Tim,
> >
> > Do you know of any technique(s) to speed up the network between pods 
> > (probably co-located onto the same machine)? Shared memory communication 
> > seems to be a good candidate within pods.
> >
> > On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:42:39 PM UTC+1, Tim Hockin wrote:
> >> Pods should make very few assumptions about other pods.  Sharing IPC
> >> implies a high level of affinity, at which point I would question why
> >> they are two different pods in the first place.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:22 AM,   wrote:
> >> > Currently it is possible to share (shared memory) IPC namespace within 
> >> > pods, but not possible to share between pods.
> >> >
> >> > Is this something that will be supported in the future? Or goes against 
> >> > the very design of Kubernetes?
> >> >
> >> > What is the general opinion of the Community on this?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Z
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> >> > Groups "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> >> > an email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >> > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
> >> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [kubernetes-users] Share the IPC namespace between pods

2017-11-08 Thread 'Tim Hockin' via Kubernetes user discussion and Q 
Are you concerned about perf because you measured it?  Or because you
suspect it might become a thing later?

Are you really sure that your pods will ALWAYS be on the same host?

Are your pods 1:1 or 1:N relationships?

Could these highly-connected pods just be one bigger pod?

To be sure, there's some overhead in networking containers today, but
you haven't really explained your problem.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:08 AM,   wrote:
> Thanks Tim,
>
> Do you know of any technique(s) to speed up the network between pods 
> (probably co-located onto the same machine)? Shared memory communication 
> seems to be a good candidate within pods.
>
> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:42:39 PM UTC+1, Tim Hockin wrote:
>> Pods should make very few assumptions about other pods.  Sharing IPC
>> implies a high level of affinity, at which point I would question why
>> they are two different pods in the first place.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:22 AM,   wrote:
>> > Currently it is possible to share (shared memory) IPC namespace within 
>> > pods, but not possible to share between pods.
>> >
>> > Is this something that will be supported in the future? Or goes against 
>> > the very design of Kubernetes?
>> >
>> > What is the general opinion of the Community on this?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Z
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> > "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> > email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [kubernetes-users] Share the IPC namespace between pods

2017-11-08 Thread 'Matthias Rampke' via Kubernetes user discussion and Q 
How big is the overhead from going through the bridge normally?

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017, 19:08  wrote:

> Thanks Tim,
>
> Do you know of any technique(s) to speed up the network between pods
> (probably co-located onto the same machine)? Shared memory communication
> seems to be a good candidate within pods.
>
> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:42:39 PM UTC+1, Tim Hockin wrote:
> > Pods should make very few assumptions about other pods.  Sharing IPC
> > implies a high level of affinity, at which point I would question why
> > they are two different pods in the first place.
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:22 AM,   wrote:
> > > Currently it is possible to share (shared memory) IPC namespace within
> pods, but not possible to share between pods.
> > >
> > > Is this something that will be supported in the future? Or goes
> against the very design of Kubernetes?
> > >
> > > What is the general opinion of the Community on this?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Z
> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com
> .
> > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
> > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [kubernetes-users] Share the IPC namespace between pods

2017-11-08 Thread zoltan . zvara 
Thanks Tim,

Do you know of any technique(s) to speed up the network between pods (probably 
co-located onto the same machine)? Shared memory communication seems to be a 
good candidate within pods.

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:42:39 PM UTC+1, Tim Hockin wrote:
> Pods should make very few assumptions about other pods.  Sharing IPC
> implies a high level of affinity, at which point I would question why
> they are two different pods in the first place.
> 
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:22 AM,   wrote:
> > Currently it is possible to share (shared memory) IPC namespace within 
> > pods, but not possible to share between pods.
> >
> > Is this something that will be supported in the future? Or goes against the 
> > very design of Kubernetes?
> >
> > What is the general opinion of the Community on this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Z
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Kubernetes user discussion and Q" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.