Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 12/14/2014 12:47 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:


I have been localising software for much longer
than I have been making fonts (or even writing
software) and I know that reviewing a few
hundred strings that were trivially changed is
not the end of the world. Usually the tool I'm
using (be it Pootle or Virtaal) would present me
of translation memory of this string which will
show the old source string and highlight the
differences from the current one, so it is just
few seconds to review, and one can review
hundreds of strings this way in a couple of
hours. Believe me, I have done it countess times
and I don't understand all the whining.


I consider that haughty disdain somewhat 
misplaced. Anybody is free to allocate a couple 
of hours of life as they please. Maybe to spend 
those on unpaid (quality) translation work.


However, it's not nice to treat "a couple of 
hours" of somebody else's life as throwaway 
resource.


It's not the case, too, that "localisers" (I see 
now your quotes use wasn't accidental) are some 
low-level plebes, allowed to play at translation 
and meanwhile ride on the coattails of the 
sky-high (LibO) popularity. These people do hard 
work and create the product (or product 
enhancement, if you please).


I think that attitude originates in widely 
spread misconception that anybody by virtue of 
speaking the language is automatically an expert 
in all issues related, (technical) translation 
included. Unlimited pool of free labour, as it were.


Mind you, I do not witness this light-hearted 
attitude to the unsolicited work in the software 
developers community, present product team 
included, for a very good reason, and I at least 
understand this completely.


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Michael Bauer]

Khaled,

Well, then your locale is lucky to have you and/or your team. Probably a 
language with several million speakers. Lucky you. Unfortunately many 
teams are tiny and rely on the same localizers who usually handle 
multiple projects. And before you say grow your team, there's only so 
much growing you can do when less than 60,000 people speak your 
language, especially if you're passionate about quality.


So perhaps you don't care about someone wasting your time. That's dandy. 
But that doesn't apply to most of us who are strapped for time. 
Microsoft does that kind of thing, true enough. But they pay me.


Michael

Sgrìobh Khaled Hosny na leanas 14/12/2014 aig 09:47:

highlight the differences from the current one, so it is just few seconds
to review, and one can review hundreds of strings this way in a couple of
hours. Believe me, I have done it countess times and I don't understand all
the whining.

Regards,
Khaled



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Khaled Hosny]

On Dec 14, 2014 8:41 AM, "Yury Tarasievich" 
wrote:
>
> On 12/14/2014 09:19 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> ...
>
>> But that was not my point, I was complaining about people who think that
>> consistency, following linguistic rules and proper typography are usless
>> cosmetics. Regardless of how localisation will be done or what language
is
>
> ...
>
> Then you completely misunderstood the point of localisers, and defeated a
strawman.
>
> It's commendable to strive for proper typography in the source etc.
>
> But the translation may have had the proper typography (for its language
context) first time, couldn't it?
>
> However, localisers (why did you quote the term, anyway?) have to redo
the work already (properly) done, repeatedly. Reviewing and approving 1k of
strings isn't peanuts, whatever one may think.
>
> To put it into context assuredly familiar to you

I have been localising software for much longer than I have been making
fonts (or even writing software) and I know that reviewing a few hundred
strings that were trivially changed is not the end of the world. Usually
the tool I'm using (be it Pootle or Virtaal) would present me of
translation memory of this string which will show the old source string and
highlight the differences from the current one, so it is just few seconds
to review, and one can review hundreds of strings this way in a couple of
hours. Believe me, I have done it countess times and I don't understand all
the whining.

Regards,
Khaled

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 12/14/2014 11:07 AM, Sophie wrote:
...

And I have yet to see those technical marvels we've been promised will
compensate for this problem (promised with lot of eff-ing at silly
localisers, by the way).


Hey, those scripts are done by people to help us, so don't shout on
them. We will discuss these heavy changes after the code/string freeze
with developers and designers. We have to find a way that allow to
maintain the sources without impacting the targets when it's not needed,
let's try to find a solution and keep working in a good mood.


But I do not shout at anybody. Do I?..

Just that I'll believe there are positive 
changes in this part of workflow, when I'll see 
an announcement going like (hyperbolised): 
"We've corrected the fixed space use in 10k 
worth of strings, but don't worry, your 
translations won't be kicked out of release, if 
you'll not redo your 10k worth of translations 
by tomorrow".


Right now, I'd risk stating that for small teams 
the task begins to look more trouble than it's 
worth.


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Sophie]

Hi Yury, all
Le 14/12/2014 07:41, Yury Tarasievich a écrit :
> On 12/14/2014 09:19 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> ...
>> But that was not my point, I was complaining about people who think that
>> consistency, following linguistic rules and proper typography are usless
>> cosmetics. Regardless of how localisation will be done or what
>> language is
> ...
> 
> Then you completely misunderstood the point of localisers, and defeated
> a strawman.
> 
> It's commendable to strive for proper typography in the source etc.
> 
> But the translation may have had the proper typography (for its language
> context) first time, couldn't it?
> 
> However, localisers (why did you quote the term, anyway?) have to redo
> the work already (properly) done, repeatedly. Reviewing and approving 1k
> of strings isn't peanuts, whatever one may think.
> 
> To put it into context assuredly familiar to you - how would you like to
> have to redo from scratch one specific curve in the font, verbatim,
> several times? Would it strike you as a not quite an optimal way to
> spend the time you dedicate to open projects?
> 
> And I have yet to see those technical marvels we've been promised will
> compensate for this problem (promised with lot of eff-ing at silly
> localisers, by the way).

Hey, those scripts are done by people to help us, so don't shout on
them. We will discuss these heavy changes after the code/string freeze
with developers and designers. We have to find a way that allow to
maintain the sources without impacting the targets when it's not needed,
let's try to find a solution and keep working in a good mood.

Cheers
Sophie

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Tel:+33683901545
Co-founder - Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[jonathon]

On 14/12/14 06:19, Khaled Hosny wrote:

> So, what translators are supposed to translate then?

Whatever is in that source. That language, with whatever spelling,
grammatical, semantic markup, and presentation markup it includes, is
what everybody uses.

If you want an en_US localization, then you have an en_US l10n team.
If you want an en_UK localization, then you have an en_UK l10n team.

It doesn't matter what language, much less what dialect, or even cant,
of that language is found in that source. The only people that see it,
are people that read the source code, and people that translate from one
language into another language.

> Regardless of how localisation will be done or what language is
> the source there always will be changes of this kind that localisations
> need to follow, 

Done in a properly run project, those changes will only affect the
specific localization team. A change made by the en_UK team won't make a
scrap of difference to the the en_US l10n team. Changes made by either
l10n team, won't affect the af_ZA team, or the de_NA team, or the uk_UK
team.

> failure to do so would mean that we have different UX between localised and 
> unlocalised versions of LibreOffice,

That implies that LibO is using i18n and l10n tools and techniques that
were obsolete back in 1990.

>which is unacceptable but many people here seems to be advocating for that.

The unlocalized version is not used, much less shipped.

The only versions that are shipped, are versions that have an l10n team
behind them.

jonathon

  * English - detected
  * English

  * English

 


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 12/14/2014 09:19 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
...

But that was not my point, I was complaining about people who think that
consistency, following linguistic rules and proper typography are usless
cosmetics. Regardless of how localisation will be done or what language is

...

Then you completely misunderstood the point of 
localisers, and defeated a strawman.


It's commendable to strive for proper typography 
in the source etc.


But the translation may have had the proper 
typography (for its language context) first 
time, couldn't it?


However, localisers (why did you quote the term, 
anyway?) have to redo the work already 
(properly) done, repeatedly. Reviewing and 
approving 1k of strings isn't peanuts, whatever 
one may think.


To put it into context assuredly familiar to you 
- how would you like to have to redo from 
scratch one specific curve in the font, 
verbatim, several times? Would it strike you as 
a not quite an optimal way to spend the time you 
dedicate to open projects?


And I have yet to see those technical marvels 
we've been promised will compensate for this 
problem (promised with lot of eff-ing at silly 
localisers, by the way).


Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Khaled Hosny]

On Dec 14, 2014 3:07 AM, "jonathon"  wrote:
>
> On 13/12/14 21:52, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
> > So, the original strings were badly written,
>
> That is just one of myriad reasons why treating en_US, en_DE, en_UK, or
> any variant thereof as the "source" language is, at best, translation
> mismanagement.

So, what translators are supposed to translate then?

But that was not my point, I was complaining about people who think that
consistency, following linguistic rules and proper typography are usless
cosmetics. Regardless of how localisation will be done or what language is
the source there always will be chsnges of this kind that localisations
need to follow, failure to do so would mean that we have different UX
between localised and unlocalised versions of LibreOffice, which is
unacceptable but many people here seems to be advocating for that.

Regards,
Khaled

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[jonathon]

On 13/12/14 21:52, Khaled Hosny wrote:

> So, the original strings were badly written, 

That is just one of myriad reasons why treating en_US, en_DE, en_UK, or
any variant thereof as the "source" language is, at best, translation
mismanagement.

> specific (unless your language does not use punctuation) 

There are dialects of English in which neither majuscles nor punctuation
are known.

To address Mihovil's question, English has never met a grammatical rule
that it has felt obliged to adhere to.

jonathon


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Khaled Hosny]

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 09:41:57AM +0100, Mihovil Stanic wrote:
> I would really like to see what kind spelling rules in en_US supports this:
> https://translations.documentfoundation.org/fr/libo_ui/translate/sc/uiconfig/scalc/ui.po#unit=79290454
> Read filter criteria from --> Read Filter Criteria From

So? Report a bug about the bad translation, how is that relevant to the
fact that people think that using proper quotation marks, for example,
is a fancy, useless thing that they should not be bothered about?

> If this isn't purely cosmetical change, I don't know what it is.
> FR didn't translate their SC directory so you can easily check there, at
> least 70% of Calc changes are first letter capitalisation or : on end of
> string.

So, the original strings were badly written, should they remain like
that for ever? And inserting a colon where appropriate is not language
specific (unless your language does not use punctuation) so all
translations must be changed to reflect this change in source strings.

Regards,
Khaled

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[jonathon]

On 13/12/14 05:35, Tom Davies wrote:

> If so might that be a better language to use as the base-line to translate 
> from?

Not a language, but a working assumption that all supported languages
are translations of the strings from the source UI.

IOW, you have an en_US team, alongside an en_UK team, alongside an af_ZA
team, alongside a de_CH team, etc.

jonathon

  * English - detected
  * English

  * English

 


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

2014-12-12 18:22 GMT-06:00 Khaled Hosny :
> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:00:45PM +, Michael Bauer wrote:
>> the nonsense around cosmetic changes to en-US
>
> As a localiser, I find it worrying that “localisers” think that using
> correct capitalisation or punctuation marks “nonsense cosmetics”, really
> scary.

Me too! But the fact is that you are a typographer, and the other
don't care about things such as microtypography, which IMO is
essential in UX.

Also, childish bickering (a consequence of ignorance) is showing up in
this list too much... which is sad, because the bulk of necessary
changes is already done anyway.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Earlier there was a suggestion of creating some sort of buffer-language
between English (US) and all the other languages.

Is there a language that doesn't have so many 'little' changes that affect
so much?  One that gets all the translations done really fast?  Perhaps
Spanish, Portugese (Br), German, French, Italian?

If so might that be a better language to use as the base-line to translate
from?

Regards from
Tom :)



On 13 December 2014 at 05:03, Yury Tarasievich 
wrote:
>
> Those changes, while possibly worthwhile from en_US perspective, are not
> related to what localised interface looks like. Since version 2 the
> workload in ui strings might easily constitute +100% of initial 25k. Did
> the ui change that much? No.
>
> Yury
>
> On 12/13/2014 03:22 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:00:45PM +, Michael Bauer wrote:
>>
>>> the nonsense around cosmetic changes to en-US
>>>
>>
>> As a localiser, I find it worrying that “localisers” think that using
>> correct capitalisation or punctuation marks “nonsense cosmetics”, really
>> scary. I can understand people being annoying about changes in source
>>
> ...
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Mihovil Stanic]

I would really like to see what kind spelling rules in en_US supports this:
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/fr/libo_ui/translate/sc/uiconfig/scalc/ui.po#unit=79290454
Read filter criteria from --> Read Filter Criteria From

If this isn't purely cosmetical change, I don't know what it is.
FR didn't translate their SC directory so you can easily check there, at 
least 70% of Calc changes are first letter capitalisation or : on end of 
string.


Mihovil

13.12.2014. u 1:22, Khaled Hosny je napisao/la:

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:00:45PM +, Michael Bauer wrote:

the nonsense around cosmetic changes to en-US

As a localiser, I find it worrying that “localisers” think that using
correct capitalisation or punctuation marks “nonsense cosmetics”, really
scary. I can understand people being annoying about changes in source
that does not affect the final translation, but the apparent total
disregard of those “cosmetics” (they are not) is not something I except
from people whose job is to adapt software interface to the proper rules
and costumes of there languages and should generally know better.

Regards,
Khaled




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Yury Tarasievich]

Not so feasible, I think.

Work based on another translation would very 
likely mean missing important nuances. 
Ironically, this was the case with English (!) 
in times of OO 2.0, when it was somewhat more 
instructive to look into German strings 
(originating from StarOffice) for the precise 
meaning of some financial maths terms.


Yury

On 12/13/2014 08:35 AM, Tom Davies wrote:


Earlier there was a suggestion of creating some
sort of buffer-language between English (US) and
all the other languages.

Is there a language that doesn't have so many
'little' changes that affect so much?  One that
gets all the translations done really fast?
Perhaps Spanish, Portugese (Br), German, French,
Italian?

If so might that be a better language to use as
the base-line to translate from?

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Yury Tarasievich]

Those changes, while possibly worthwhile from 
en_US perspective, are not related to what 
localised interface looks like. Since version 2 
the workload in ui strings might easily 
constitute +100% of initial 25k. Did the ui 
change that much? No.


Yury

On 12/13/2014 03:22 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:00:45PM +, Michael Bauer wrote:

the nonsense around cosmetic changes to en-US


As a localiser, I find it worrying that “localisers” think that using
correct capitalisation or punctuation marks “nonsense cosmetics”, really
scary. I can understand people being annoying about changes in source

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Michael Bauer]

True but what gets my goat is that many of these are *totally* 
arbitrary. Case in point, sentence case vs title case. Unfortunately 
this debate comes at a time when Microsoft has gone *exactly* 180° the 
other way (going forward) compared to LibreOffice. So that makes it 
arbitrary.


That's even without considering the fact that Nagari, CJK and so on 
don't even have case...


If Gaelic has to implement a change in convention then I implement that 
without affecting 100 locales. Would be nice if the source for projects 
like LO worked the same way because whether English uses formatted or 
unformatted quotes or sentence vs title case does not affect how the 
other 100 locales localizer. That's not disregard for conventions. It's 
disregard to the time I donate as a localizer.


Michael

Sgrìobh Khaled Hosny na leanas 13/12/2014 aig 00:22:

As a localiser, I find it worrying that “localisers” think that using
correct capitalisation or punctuation marks “nonsense cosmetics”, really
scary. I can understand people being annoying about changes in source
that does not affect the final translation, but the apparent total
disregard of those “cosmetics” (they are not) is not something I except
from people whose job is to adapt software interface to the proper rules
and costumes of there languages and should generally know better.

Regards,
Khaled


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes? (was Workflow based on master)

[Khaled Hosny]

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 10:00:45PM +, Michael Bauer wrote:
> the nonsense around cosmetic changes to en-US

As a localiser, I find it worrying that “localisers” think that using
correct capitalisation or punctuation marks “nonsense cosmetics”, really
scary. I can understand people being annoying about changes in source
that does not affect the final translation, but the apparent total
disregard of those “cosmetics” (they are not) is not something I except
from people whose job is to adapt software interface to the proper rules
and costumes of there languages and should generally know better.

Regards,
Khaled

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