[lace] 's Gravenmoer lace
I recently acquired a copy of the book Kant uit Vlaanderen en 's Gravenmoer and an intrigued by the notation with each pattern. An example, translated for me by a Dutch friend, is as follows: Aantal paren: 59 Number pairs Aantal dike draden: 5 Number of thick threads Aantal spelden: 68 Number of pins I don't understand the "Number of pins line". Can anybody offer an explanation? Surely one would need more than 68 pins! .Noelene in Cooma, Australia [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~nlafferty/ - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Tatting lady
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Elizabeth Ligeti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Sounds like the Tatting person is everywhere!! Sometimes, when the person concerned is grinning ear to ear, you can tell it is another lacemaker having you on (I once had a group from the Ring of Tatters, demonstrating at a show at the NEC, in hysterics after the parting shot of "oh, get on with your macramé!") But, and I have said this before, there is a reason for the confusion in the UK at least. One of the books on the history of the Nottingham Lace industry refers to "tattings" - being odd lengths of *machine-made* lace - edgings and insertions. So, to many of my mother's and grandmother's generation, the bobbin lace we are working produces something that looks the same as that which they would have called a tatting - and hence, in their minds, we *are* tatting. I keep a shuttle with me, to explain the *hand made* lace terms! The thing is, not to be thrown by any question asked when you are demonstrating - the least connected this year was from someone who wanted to know how decoupage was done! (the stand next to me was selling decoupage prints). This is where the range of craft techniques you learnt to teach to Guides comes in very handy! -- Jane Partridge - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] 's Gravenmoer lace
Aantal spelden is the number of rows of grid points in a pattern repeat ie double the number of edge stitches. If that is not clear consider that the left hand pair from the last ground stitch on the left passes out through the left edge gimp and makes the edge stitch in a pinhole one row below the ground stitch, then back in through the gimp to make a ground stitch one row below the edge stitch Jay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sydney, Australia -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Noelene Lafferty Sent: Tuesday, 30 May 2006 6:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [lace] 's Gravenmoer lace I recently acquired a copy of the book Kant uit Vlaanderen en 's Gravenmoer and an intrigued by the notation with each pattern. An example, translated for me by a Dutch friend, is as follows: Aantal paren: 59 Number pairs Aantal dike draden: 5 Number of thick threads Aantal spelden: 68 Number of pins I don't understand the "Number of pins line". Can anybody offer an explanation? Surely one would need more than 68 pins! .Noelene in Cooma, Australia [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~nlafferty/ - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] 's Gravenmoer lace
Yes, you will need lots more than 68 pins! The "number of pins line" seems to indicate the number of pins, (counting down the footside) in the pattern to complete a whole "repeat" . it's easier to check on the following pages where the number of pins is lower Sue I recently acquired a copy of the book Kant uit Vlaanderen en 's Gravenmoer Aantal spelden: 68 Number of pins I don't understand the "Number of pins line". Can anybody offer an explanation? Surely one would need more than 68 pins! - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] 's Gravenmoer lace
More or less the whole pricking on page 145 is one repeat of the pattern. That pattern has two different sorts of fillings used, so the repeat is twice as long as I initially thought). I keep losing count but it must be about 68 dots from the top of the first diamond to the bottom complete little diamond on the page. So "aanal spelden" seems to be exactly the number of pins in the footside (not double them). It is easier to check the number of pins in the footside on the patterns on the following pages, where the repeats are much smaller Sue - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] tatting - history
The earliest documented date I have heard so far is 1840's. Dan Russch-Fischer doesn't post much on any of the lists I'm on any more, but his page http://www.tribbler.com/tatman/ includes early printed references. Click on "Misc" at the bottom, then scroll down to "In Print". Many tatting books make claims about its origin, but only a few give any documentation or references to support them. So tatting is fa-a-ar into the future for anyone doing Elizabethan. :) Lynn Carpenter in SW Michigan, USA alwen at i2k dot com http://lost-arts.blogspot.com/ - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Tatting lady
Hi Jane Talking of Nottingham lace, someone asked me recently if I knew of handmade "Nottingham Lace". I understood that it was only made by machine. Can anyone enlighten me? Lindy in Ireland - Original Message - From: "Jane Partridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:41 AM Subject: [lace] Tatting lady But, and I have said this before, there is a reason for the confusion in the UK at least. One of the books on the history of the Nottingham Lace industry refers to "tattings" - being odd lengths of *machine-made* lace - edgings and insertions. So, to many of my mother's and grandmother's generation, the bobbin lace we are working produces something that looks the same as that which they would have called a tatting - and hence, in their minds, we *are* tatting. -- Jane Partridge - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] tatting - history
Dear Spiders When people talk of Irish lace they usually mean Irish Crochet or Carrickmacross lace. They do not know that Tatting was also taught and made in here from 1847 around the town of Ardee. "It was made by poor children and as much as 5,000 Pounds was earned for distribution in that district in a very few years, thus affording considerable relief at that bad time", according to a booklet I have ... "Guide to the Collection of Lace" in the National Museum in Dublin. "The art of tatting may be traced to the 16th century Italian macrame work, and is a variation of the punto a gruppo or knotting stitch." It was done in France in the 18th century. Lindy in Ireland - Original Message - From: "Lynn Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 2:01 PM Subject: [lace] tatting - history The earliest documented date I have heard so far is 1840's. Dan Russch-Fischer doesn't post much on any of the lists I'm on any more, but his page http://www.tribbler.com/tatman/ includes early printed references. Click on "Misc" at the bottom, then scroll down to "In Print". Many tatting books make claims about its origin, but only a few give any documentation or references to support them. So tatting is fa-a-ar into the future for anyone doing Elizabethan. :) Lynn Carpenter in SW Michigan, USA alwen at i2k dot com http://lost-arts.blogspot.com/ - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] tatting - history
"The > art of tatting may be traced to the 16th century > Italian macrame work, and > is a variation of the punto a gruppo or knotting > stitch." It was done in > France in the 18th century. If it were done that long ago, HOW did they do it? What is the oldest reference to a tatting shuttle as we know it? Just curious. Alice in Oregon -- sunny for today, then more rain - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] tatting - history - Long reply, pre-1850 book
In a message dated 5/30/06 9:05:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The earliest documented date I have heard so far is 1840's. Dan > Russch-Fischer doesn't post much on any of the lists I'm on any more, but > his page > > http://www.tribbler.com/tatman/ > > includes early printed references. Click on "Misc" at the bottom, then > scroll down to "In Print". > Dear Lacemakers (especially historians), I do not have Mrs. Jane Gaugain's 1842 volume cited at the beginning of Mark's site. However, I do have one by her, dated 1847: "Lady's Knitting, Netting & Crochet Book - Vol. I". Tess may have scanned it for the Professor's site; I do not remember. Inside cover lists "Works of Mrs Gaugain, already Published, as follows: "VOL. I. Lady's Assistant in Knitting, Netting, and Crochet Work - 8th thousand, price 5s. 6d. "VOL. II. Lady's Assistant in Knitting, Netting, Crochet, Worsted Work, Raised Cut Work, and Tatting - 5th thousand, price 10s.6d. "Accompaniment to Second Volume: or a Book of Prints illustrating all the Open Stitches described in Vol. II.; with a number of New and Beautiful Specimens of Knitting - 4th thousand, price 2s. 6d. "VOL. III. Lady's Assistant in Knitting, Netting, and Crochet work. Illustrated by upwards of 70 patterns - 2nd thousand, price 10s.6d. without plates; with plates, 12s. 6d. "The Knitters' Friend; being a Selection of Receipts for the most Useful and Saleable Articles in Knitting, Netting, and Crochet Work - 2nd thousand, price 2s. 6d. "Miniature Knitting, Netting, and Crochet Book - 27th thousand, price one shilling. "Crochet D'Oyley Book - price 6d. And, Crochet Collar Book - price 6d. "The Materials requisite for the various Receipts in Mrs. Gaugain's Works, can be forwarded by post, or otherwise, to any part of the kingdom, on receiving a remittance, or post-office order, for the amount of goods required." - The book I have is cloth bound (which probably contributed to it's survival), 250 pages tipped in gold on all 3 exposed edges, 6 1/2" x 4 1/4" (would fit nicely into a work box or bag). In the back is a list of patronesses and subscribers, alphabetically arranged - starting with: Her Majesty The Queen Dowager Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Gloucester Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Cambridge Her Royal Highness the Princess Augusta Carolina followed by a long list of titled ladies, then the ordinary subscribers. Altogether charming instructions using materials unfamiliar to us today for items long out of fashion. The publisher is I. J. Gaugain (a family member?), and it was published in Edinburgh. I purchased this in 2001 from a collector in the small coastal Scottish town of Stone Haven. Above information may be of value to those who have an interest in reproducing items from before 1850, or in seeking the volumes for their own collection. Jeri Ames in Maine USA Lace & Embroidery Resource Center - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Nottingham lace
Interesting article on the nottingham lace industry: http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/work/england/nottingham/article_1.shtml written by Sheila Mason, who, I understand, is one of the leading authorities on Nottinghm lace. I believe anything referred to as "Nottingham lace" is machine made and can be made anywhere provided it is made on the original Nottingham lace machines. Even if made in Nottingham, it isn't "Nottingham lace" if it isn't made on one of these machines. Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] 's Gravenmoer lace
I too look forward to the definitive answer from a Dutch member. Meanwhile, as we seem to be the only people battling the translation challenge, I still do not see how to reconcile your counting with the simple pattern on page 146, where there are no variations in the repeats, and there seem to me to be a straightforward count of 14 edge pinholes between corresponding points on the pattern. Sue - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] 's Gravenmoer lace
According to the International Lace Dictionary, aantal is number and speld is pin. Obviously the ...en ending will alter the meaning somewhat. As Sue says, the number given definitely equals the count of the footside pinholes of one complete pattern repeat. What I'm trying to work out why this is considered to be an important enough piece of information to given up-front, as the lacemaker can see quite easily that it's a short/medium/long repeat just by looking at the pattern. Does the precise number of pinholes make a lot of difference. It was traditionally worked on a block pillow so the length of the repeat doesn't affect the working a lot. Perhaps the end use of the lace (this count only seems to be given with the traditional patterns) governed whether it was a short repeat or a more ornate pattern. Jacquie in England, still waiting for summer (or even spring!) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] 's Gravenmoer lace
--- Noelene Lafferty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I recently acquired a copy of the book Kant uit > Vlaanderen en 's Gravenmoer > Aantal spelden: 68 Number of pins >> > I don't understand the "Number of pins line". Can > anybody offer an > explanation? Surely one would need more than 68 > pins! When I first got this book, I asked my friend in The Netherlands. This is the reply I got at the time: the 68 pins (spelden 68) is a kind of measuring how large the pattern is in one repeat : 34 pins on the right side, and 34 pins on the left side.. -- Alice in Oregon -- only 15 days till conference. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Tatting lady
From: Jane Partridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > But, and I have said this before, there is a reason for the confusion in > the UK at least. One of the books on the history of the Nottingham > Laceindustry refers to "tattings" - being odd lengths of *machine- made* lace > - edgings and insertions. So, to many of my mother's and grandmother's > generation, the bobbin lace we are working produces something that > looksthe same as that which they would have called a tatting - and > hence, in their minds, we *are* tatting. In the US, crossword puzzles seem to be the culprit. You very often have "tat" in the puzzle (it's short and fills in a corner nicely), and the clue is usually "to make lace". So people who do crossword puzzles think all lacemaking is tatting. Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA (formerly Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] 's Gravenmoer lace
According to the International Lace Dictionary, aantal is number and speld is pin. Obviously the ...en ending will alter the meaning somewhat. -en makes it plural As Sue says, the number given definitely equals the count of the footside pinholes of one complete pattern repeat. I asked Corrie versluis, ans she says the same What I'm trying to work out why this is considered to be an important enough piece of information to given up-front, as the lacemaker can see quite easily that it's a short/medium/long repeat just by looking at the pattern. Does the precise number of pinholes make a lot of difference. I didn't ask that question. It was traditionally worked on a block pillow so the length of the repeat doesn't affect the working a lot. Perhaps the end use of the lace (this count only seems to be given with the traditional patterns) governed whether it was a short repeat or a more ornate pattern. Jacquie in England, still waiting for summer (or even spring!) Jo Falkink - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] 's Gravenmoer lace - guessing
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does the precise > number of pinholes make a lot of difference. ... > Perhaps the end use of the lace governed whether it was a short repeat or a more ornate > pattern. I'm going to make a wild guess on this. The traditional end use of this lace was on a bonnet. A certain length would be needed for a given bonnet style or size. The lace was usually mounted so each side was symetrical. The number of lines per repeat would help figure out just where in the pattern to start so mid point of the pattern would also be the mid point of the finished length of lace. I repeat -- this is a guess, not confirmed. It comes from making 's-Grav. lace for a dutch bonnet. Another guess also relates to the end use. A shorter piece of lace would look better with a shorter pattern repeat while a long piece could use a long repeat. The pattern I made was 10 inches per repeat. I made three repeats to get the 30 inches I needed. The next piece is 36 inches, and I had to do some real figuring to find the correct starting point since the second pattern did not fit neatly into the desired length. Happy lacing, Alice in Oregon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Nottingham lace
Dear all I can remember being told by an interested visitor when I was demonstrating, that her mother had made Nottingham Lace. She was quite insistent. Since I was making bobbin lace I had to accept that she meant the same process (of course she might have meant tatting!.) I concluded that either she worked in a lace factory, or that, coming from Nottingham and making hand-made lace, she simply called it that. Rosemary in Sussex - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Nottingham lace - Nottinghamshire Bobbin Lace Society!
In a message dated 5/30/06 5:02:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I can remember being told by an interested visitor when I was > demonstrating, that her mother had made Nottingham Lace. She was quite > insistent. Since > I was making bobbin lace I had to accept that she meant the same process (of > course she might have meant tatting!.) I concluded that either she > worked in a lace factory, or that, coming from Nottingham and making > hand-made > lace, she simply called it that. > > Rosemary in Sussex > Dear Lacemakers, Quoting from my memo to Arachne dated 2/28/03: In 2001, I took an independent travel trip to Nottingham and went to the Lace Market Visitors Center (which may now be closed). There was a lovely lacemaker with whom I chatted, sitting in the window, making bobbin lace. So, there was a physical tie with what was - in the rest of the center - machine lace. Could be misunderstood by anyone passing by, and misconstrued to confirm something a mother or grandmother said in social conversation. It was possible to buy books in this facility. I purchased two copies of a spiral-bound book published by Nottinghamshire Bobbin Lace Society to commemorate their 25th anniversary. This is wonderful documentation of a slice of local lace history. I thought it such a nice idea for a lace society to do, that one copy was dispatched to the New Jersey lace club to which I belong. The book is a fairly thick one, with an introduction by Heather Harris (at the time, and maybe still - an Arachne)... At any rate, the Nottinghamshire Bobbin Lace Society probably still exists, since I just confirmed one of their websites was last updated in December 2005. Go to Google, put in the name of the society, and you'll find several listings. In the past, there was also a listing for Elizabeth Cooke's World of Lace at: www.theworldoflace.com However, I found I could not access it tonight. It said "catch you later" when I tried! This originally had a illustrated story about lace in Nottingham. Jeri Ames in Maine USA Lace and Embroidery Resource Center - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] 's Gravenmoer lace
Many thanks on all the feedback on this. The concept that the number of pins denotes the length of the section or repeat makes sense. My addendum LOKK book with the patterns for the two caps in it says the hul cap needs "one ell" of lace, which is "about 3 repeats", so you would really have to be working out where to start to get precisely the length you want and have one of the repeats centered in the front. I would dearly love to buy a copy of the original hardcover book from LOKK but sadly, it is not only out of print, but seems to be completely unavailable. If anyone knows of one for sale, could they let me know direct please? Noelene in Cooma, Australia Mid winter, with a lovely wood fire warming the room, and thoroughly enjoying my excursion into 's Gravenmoer style lace. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~nlafferty/ - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Tatting everywhere!
Jane P said"Sometimes, when the person concerned is grinning ear to ear, you can tell it is another lacemaker having you on.." Yes, I have had that happen a couple of times, too!!! --- and I was a bit naughty and did that to someone once. I used to knit for a wool company, checking the patterns, and took time off from lace demonstrating at the big Crafts show to have a walk around, and found the knitting company stand, and one of the ladies I knew well showing someone how to knit. I asked to be shown too - and when she looked up and saw me - I got a very rude answer! :)) If I had not been lacemaking there - I would have been roped in to help on their stand, I think! I, too, always have a tatting shuttle and thread to hand to show the difference, and also a small needlelace pillow with some NL on it, and a demonstration piece to show how that is made, too. A lot of people who do some type of embroidery can relate to NL more than to BL. We display a wide variety of different laces, and usually try to have different laces on our pillows, so they can see 3 of us all with pillows and bobbins that look the same, but very different types of lace coming off the pillows. We often get some of the same folks coming round each year, and some can even pick up - on the display board - the pieces we were working on last year!! So they Really do take notice, sometimes! Regards from Liz in Melbourne [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
