Re: [lace] Preference of book format

[Barron]

I'm doing an informal survey and would value your opinions. Would you purchase
a pattern book on CD if the CD insert showed thumbnail photos of the finished
lace? If you had the choice of a printed pattern book--let's assume that it is
not a hardbound volume--or a CD, which would you purchase? If you opted for
the CD, how would you use it--to print out the entire publication, or only
those patterns that were of specific interest to you. What would you consider
a fair price for a pattern book on CD?

Hi, it's a book for me too, I'd be
worried about obsolescence, though a CD to print prickings out from would be
handy - one of my bugbears with books is prickings printed too close to the
spine.
jenny barron
beautiful sunny morning in Scotland, lovely red sky

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[lace] Preference of Book format

[Jean Nathan]

Don't know why this is on both Lace and  Lace-chat, as it's clearly a lace 
topic, so I'm restricting my reply to Lace to save getting it twice.


A book every time!

I had a choice of Jane Akinson's book "Pattern Design for Torchon Lace" new
on CD or secondhand in book form - I chose the book. Price had nothing to do
with the choice. Books are much easier to peruse at leisure and almost at
any time, anywhere. I also find I can usually remember which book I saw a
pattern in and can go to that book immediately, but I canlt do that with
CDs.

Having said that, I do have a book of Victorian lace cards which also has a
CD of all the images in the book with it, so the cards can either be
photocopied or printed from the CD for use in making other cards. I it
extremely useful to have both methods of reproduction available. I can also
make all sorts of alterations to the images on the computer, which canlt be
done with a photocopy. Of course, I could scan on to the computer and then
make alterations, but having them on CD already speeds thing up by cutting
out that part of the process.

Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK

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[lace] Preference of book format

[Jenny Brandis]

My personal choice would be a glossy, coloured printed book for 
perusing in bed - with a CD of the prickings in various grid sizes 
and the photos so I can enlarge them on the screen to see "just how 
they did that bit"


Hows that for decadent?



Jenny Brandis
Kununurra, Western Australia

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.brandis.com.au/craft/lace/index.html

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[lace] Preference of book format

[Gray, Alison J]

Hi Carole (and everyone)



I can see that there are good points about both.  With the CD there is
the fact that it takes up almost no space (but would I lose it?)  Just
printing off the prickings would be great, no scanning or photocopying.
But even if you could blow up the illustrations you can't use a
magnifying glass on a screen and I like to have a good look.



On the whole I think I prefer the book, there is something to get hold
of and if you need to look at it while you're working it's there right
beside you.  I think that if you need to print off bits so that you can
refer to them, well, you might as well buy a book.



I work in an academic library and you would think that with all the
computer resources, data bases, web sites etc that are now available we
wouldn't be buying as many books, but that isn't the case.  I don't
think that there's anything to beat a book, but I guess I'm biased.



Alison in Essex UK where it's dull and miserable

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Re: [lace] Preference of book format

[Bridget Marrow]

Dear Carole

Yes, I would opt for a CD such as you describe - it would take up less
room than a book, and I am seriously short of shelfspace!

It would be wonderful to be able to print out patterns as one needed them
- the pricking straight onto card - and I assume would make scaling up or
down very easy.  I don't think I would print out the whole book.

Thank you for the brilliant idea.

Bridget, in Watford, England

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[lace] the Professor's website

[Tess Parrish]

I guess I need to clear things up a tiny bit.  There are two websites:

The original one is    
This is the one we send scans to, where John Cropper (Ralph  
Griswold's able successor) does all the work of checking the scans,  
assembling them into the right format,  turning them into PDFs, and  
posting them on the web site.  Without him, there would be no  
website.  He is now in the long-awaited process of redoing the whole  
site to make it better, a long arduous job which will probably be  
finished by about Christmas.


Then there is  This is Kris  
Bruland's site, and he is the one where you have to register.  He has  
taken over the sales of the CDs (blessings on his name!), and in  
preparing them he has listed the contents of each CD, which is a  
great help to us all.  He has nothing to do with the scanning and  
preparing of the material that ends up on the CDs: he gets it all  
from John.  I am most grateful to Kris, not only because he has  
relieved me of the burden of selling and mailing CDs, but because he  
is handling this all in a very professional way, being able to take  
credit cards and such, and giving discounts for quantity purchases.


So think of it this way:
1)  is like a public  
library.  This is where the material is catalogued and stored and  
where you can stroll through the stacks and leaf through the books.
2) is like a bookstore.  Here  
you can find out what each CD contains and buy the one(s) you like.


The one thing I do urge you to do is to poke around and see what is  
on the Professor's site.  Don't just stick to lace: there's tons of  
other stuff, all textile related, and quite fascinating.  For those  
who aren't quite sure what this is all about, this vast collection is  
made up of out-of-copyright books and such, which means that the  
publication date has to be before 1923.  For lacemakers, this was the  
golden age of professional lacemaking and we are lucky that these  
books are still available in public libraries or private collections.


Don't worry about the thieves helping themselves to our work.  I  
asked Ralph about this once, and he said that this happens all the  
time.  It's too bad that people don't know that they can get all  
these books on line for free, and I don't know how we can spread that  
word.  And of course the bad thieves will get their reward in Heaven-- 
or perhaps the Other Place!


Sorry to make this so long, but I hope it straightens out the confusion.

Tess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) in Maine, USA, where the leaves are still  
beautiful though dropping fast.


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Re: [lace] Preference of Book format

[clayblackwell]

Naturally, when I make an absolute statement, it doesn't take long for me to 
contradict myself!!  Jean Nathan mentioned Jane Atkinson's book on disk, and 
this is a good example.  I did not "discover" Jean's book until it was OOP, and 
so was thrilled to learn about the CD.  As soon as I got it, I spent lots of 
time looking at it.  The beauty of Jane's book on disk is that the images are 
extremely in high definition, and all in color, so that if you want a closer 
look, all you have to do is enlarge the image on your screen with no 
pixillation until you get very, very close.  This was just a revelation for me! 
 I loved being able to do that in a lace-related book.

But...  because I do prefer to curl up with a book, I took the time to print 
out Jane's book, which I then comb-bound, including a pocket for the CD.  Now, 
it's possible to curl up with the book, read to my heart's content, and when I 
want a better look, take the CD to the computer.

So I don't feel deprived for not having gotten one of the original "hard 
copies" of the book!  (And it is a great one!)

Clay

--
Clay Blackwell 
Lynchburg, VA USA 


-- Original message -- 
From: "Jean Nathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

> Don't know why this is on both Lace and Lace-chat, as it's clearly a lace 
> topic, so I'm restricting my reply to Lace to save getting it twice. 
> 
> A book every time! 
> 
> I had a choice of Jane Akinson's book "Pattern Design for Torchon Lace" new 
> on CD or secondhand in book form - I chose the book. Price had nothing to do 
> with the choice. Books are much easier to peruse at leisure and almost at 
> any time, anywhere. I also find I can usually remember which book I saw a 
> pattern in and can go to that book immediately, but I canlt do that with 
> CDs. 

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[lace] to cheer you on a dreary day

[Agnes Boddington]

My prayer at night - :

Now I lay me  
Down to sleep   
I pray the Lord  
My shape to keep.  


Please no wrinkles
Please no bags
And please lift my butt

Before it sags.   

Please no age spots   
Please no gray
And as for my belly,   
Please take it away.   
Please keep me healthy
 
Please keep me young 


And thank you Dear Lord   
For all that you've done. 
  
Five tips for a woman 


1. It is important that a man helps you around the house and has a job.

2. It is important that a man makes you laugh.

3. It is important to find a man you can count on and doesn't lie to you.

4. It is important that a man loves you and spoils you.

5. It is important that these four men don't know each other.

Agnes Boddington
Elloughton UK - where it is very grey and dreary

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[lace] lace Preference book or CD

[Daphne Martin]

Hello All of you.
   My preference would be a book as stated by so many of you.
Another reason being. All lacemakers do not have a computer.
Such is the case with a friend of mine who bought Out of Africa. She has a CD
that she cannot use because she does not have a computer.Daphne Murky Norfolk
UK
_
Celeb spotting – Play CelebMashup and win cool prizes

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[lace] Re Preference of book format

[Joy Beeson]

On 10/25/07 9:33 AM, ann.humphreys wrote:


I know this doesn't apply to using a CD but did you know
that if you have Windows Internet Explorer there is a
magnifying glass at the bottom right hand corner of the
screen that magnifiesup to 400%. I find it really useful
for studying lace pictures on websites.


In Firefox, you can right-click on the image and then choose
"view image" from the drop-down menu.  Then you get just the
image -- and if, as often happens, an inexperienced
web-designer has put a large picture into a small frame, you
see the entire picture, and can toggle between full size and 
a size that fits on the screen.


I downloaded a program called "Virtual Magnifying Glass"
from a website for people with eye trouble.  Web pictures
don't have enough resolution to magnify more than 200%
without undue pixelation, but that helps a *lot*; DH reads
all his on-line comic strips with it.

I've forgotten the name of the site that distributes it, but
the about page says that it's supported by the University of
Sao Paulo, and that it was written by Chris O'Donnell,
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho, and Harri Pyy.  (And what *do*
they do to "about" pages to make it impossible to copy and
paste, and WHY?  Flicking back and forth to get the spelling
right is a Real Pain.)

Ah!  First Google hit:  it was:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/magnifier

http://magnifier.sourceforge.net/

(The second site toggles among dark on light, light on dark, 
and blue.)


--
Joy Beeson
http://joybeeson.home.comcast.net/
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/
http://n3f.home.comcast.net/ -- Writers' Exchange
http://www.timeswrsw.com/craig/cam/ (local weather)
west of Fort Wayne, Indiana, U.S.A.

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Re: [lace] Re Preference of book format

[Agnes Boddington]

Hi

For all those interested, the web address for the virtual maginifying 
glass is: http://magnifier.sourceforge.net/


Agnes Boddington - Elloughton UK

Joy Beeson wrote:


On 10/25/07 9:33 AM, ann.humphreys wrote:


I know this doesn't apply to using a CD but did you know
that if you have Windows Internet Explorer there is a
magnifying glass at the bottom right hand corner of the
screen that magnifiesup to 400%. I find it really useful
for studying lace pictures on websites.



In Firefox, you can right-click on the image and then choose
"view image" from the drop-down menu.  Then you get just the
image -- and if, as often happens, an inexperienced
web-designer has put a large picture into a small frame, you
see the entire picture, and can toggle between full size and a size 
that fits on the screen.


I downloaded a program called "Virtual Magnifying Glass"
from a website for people with eye trouble.  Web pictures
don't have enough resolution to magnify more than 200%
without undue pixelation, but that helps a *lot*; DH reads
all his on-line comic strips with it.

I've forgotten the name of the site that distributes it, but
the about page says that it's supported by the University of
Sao Paulo, and that it was written by Chris O'Donnell,
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho, and Harri Pyy.  (And what *do*
they do to "about" pages to make it impossible to copy and
paste, and WHY?  Flicking back and forth to get the spelling
right is a Real Pain.)

Ah!  First Google hit:  it was:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/magnifier

http://magnifier.sourceforge.net/

(The second site toggles among dark on light, light on dark, and blue.)



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Re: [lace] Re: [lace-chat] Preference of book format

[Shere'e]

On 10/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know which eBay offering you're referring to, but I would really like 
> to take this opportunity to advise all Arachnids that in the not-too-distant 
> past, the Professor's website at the University of Arizona was easily 
> accessible to all.  No one ever imagined that people interested in weaving 
> and lacemaking would steal the work of others and sell it to others.
>

This is the item number 260174595731 .

I must admit that I do take a bit of offense at the automatic
assumption that the person selling the book has stolen it and that it
is an illegal copy. Yes, it may be, however it may NOT be as well. It
may be someone who wrote the book on their own and is selling it this
way instead of through a publishing house that keeps the bulk of the
money that the book is sold for. Unless a book sells HUGE numbers an
author really gets a tiny amount of money for all the work.

If this IS an illegal copy and is in fact the work of the Professor
would you please let me know.  There are a bunch of screen shots of
the pages so it should be pretty obvious to those who have seen the
Professor's work. If not, would you please post that as well so that
people know that this is not an illegal copy and that the assumption
you just gave was incorrect.


Shere'e
Seattle, WA USA
-- 
www.webeweddings.com
Unique Weddings for Unique Couples

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[lace] Iitem number 260174595731

[Jean Nathan]

Shere'e wrote:



I did a google for the title "Torchon Lace-work" as an enlargement of the 
title page isn't clear. Immediately got the page:


http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupid?key=olbp33305

which gives details of the book "Hints for Beginners on Torchon Lace-work by 
A M Sime 1904 - 1909, with the links to Part I:PDF at Arizona and Part II: 
PDF at Arizona - the files on the professor's web site, where they are 
available for free.


Then there's a link to the person selling on ebay, and at the bottom a claim 
for the copyright 1993-2007 John Mark Ockerbloom 
([EMAIL PROTECTED]), which I'm sure isn't legal because the scans 
are in the public domain on the professor's site and the book is out of 
co[yright..


Jan in Poole, Dorset, UK 


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Re: [lace] Preference of Book format

[Barb ETx]

I guess I have to pop in here.  Sometimes  the preference...book or CDis
an age thing, too.  I , like many of you, prefer to settle in with a book..to
study and read patterns.

I suppose that, like Clay says, the optimum vehicle is a nice glossy book with
a pocket for a CD. (This harkens back to the time when books included
cardboard patterns ready to prick).  But I want a book with the instructions.
Printing out at home and then taking to be spiral bound is not practical for
many people.  I have printed out such, , then placed in sheet protectors...in
a loose-leaf notebook.  Good, but cumbersome and NOT a substitute for a book!.
But then I love books and can always find space for one more.
Smiles
BarbE
  - Original Message -
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Jean Nathan ; Lace
  Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:52 AM
  Subject: Re: [lace] Preference of Book format


  Naturally, when I make an absolute statement, it doesn't take long for me to
contradict myself!!  Jean Nathan mentioned Jane Atkinson's book on disk, and
this is a good example.  I did not "discover" Jean's book until it was OOP,
and so was thrilled to learn about the CD.  As soon as I got it, I spent lots
of time looking at it.  The beauty of Jane's book on disk is that the images
are extremely in high definition, and all in color, so that if you want a
closer look, all you have to do is enlarge the image on your screen with no
pixillation until you get very, very close.  This was just a revelation for
me!  I loved being able to do that in a lace-related book.

  But...  because I do prefer to curl up with a book, I took the time to print
out Jane's book, which I then comb-bound, including a pocket for the CD.  Now,
it's possible to curl up with the book, read to my heart's content, and when I
want a better look, take the CD to the computer.

  So I don't feel deprived for not having gotten one of the original "hard
copies" of the book!  (And it is a great one!)

  Clay

  --
  Clay Blackwell
  Lynchburg, VA USA


  -- Original message --
  From: "Jean Nathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

  > Don't know why this is on both Lace and Lace-chat, as it's clearly a lace
  > topic, so I'm restricting my reply to Lace to save getting it twice.
  >
  > A book every time!
  >
  > I had a choice of Jane Akinson's book "Pattern Design for Torchon Lace"
new
  > on CD or secondhand in book form - I chose the book. Price had nothing to
do
  > with the choice. Books are much easier to peruse at leisure and almost at
  > any time, anywhere. I also find I can usually remember which book I saw a
  > pattern in and can go to that book immediately, but I canlt do that with
  > CDs.

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  --
  No virus found in this incoming message.
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  Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: 10/24/2007
2:31 PM

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Fw: [lace] Preference of Book format

[sue]

Well I have swung all day, backwards and forewards but really do think the 
absolute ideal is part book, part disc, as the ladies say to be able to 
print off patterns from the disc really is the very best option.

It certainly has been a brain teaser all day:-)  in an ideal world.
Sue T, chilly dull Dorset UK


Naturally, when I make an absolute statement, it doesn't take long for me 
to contradict myself!!  Jean Nathan mentioned Jane Atkinson's book on 
disk, and this is a good example.  I did not "discover" Jean's book until 
it was OOP, and so was thrilled to learn about the CD.  As soon as I got 
it, I spent lots of time looking at it.  The beauty of Jane's book on disk 
is that the images are extremely in high definition, and all in color, so 
that if you want a closer look, all you have to do is enlarge the image on 
your screen with no pixillation until you get very, very close.  This was 
just a revelation for me!  I loved being able to do that in a lace-related 
book.


But...  because I do prefer to curl up with a book, I took the time to 
print out Jane's book, which I then comb-bound, including a pocket for the 
CD.  Now, it's possible to curl up with the book, read to my heart's 
content, and when I want a better look, take the CD to the computer.


So I don't feel deprived for not having gotten one of the original "hard 
copies" of the book!  (And it is a great one!)

Clay Blackwell
Lynchburg, VA USA

A book every time!

I had a choice of Jane Akinson's book "Pattern Design for Torchon Lace" 
new
on CD or secondhand in book form - I chose the book. Price had nothing to 
do

with the choice. Books are much easier to peruse at leisure and almost at
any time, anywhere. I also find I can usually remember which book I saw a
pattern in and can go to that book immediately, but I canlt do that with
CDs.


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[lace] news from California

[Tess Parrish]

This just came from Marji:

Dear Tess -
Yes I am home and trying to deal with the remains of the smoke (very  
bad for the lungs - so we are still advised to stay inside with  
windows shut) and the outside still has lots of black soot.  Amusing,  
but the worst of my problem right now is spoiled food in the  
refrigerator. UGH


You may be able to tell by the maps the fires never spread through  
Rancho Santa Fe - and that was a real miracle. If it had, I could  
have been affected, as I live very near.


Some fires are still burning, but you have probably heard that the  
weather has now changed and so things are improving.  So far, my  
daughter's house has also escaped damage this time. Please tell the  
Arachne people I send my thanks for the good wishes and tell them  
that I feel blessed that none of the flying embers reached my  
house... with the high winds it was quite possible.  The evacuation  
process was strangely surreal and an experience I will always remember.


Love,
Marj

I know we are all happy that she is home safe and sound after her  
adventure! Thanks to all who wrote with their concern and good wishes.


Tess ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

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[lace] Re: Professor's work for sale on ebay

[SARA MEYER]

Shere'e,

Does this happen? Absolutely. 

I took a moment to look this item up on ebay, could not enlarge it, but
recognized the contents as something old, something I may have seen before.
The pdf size is stated the manner it is on the Professor's site. I did a
bit of checking and FOUND the source from the Professor's website:  A. M.
Sime, Torchon Workbook, 1904.  
http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/topic_lace.html
 
I did not take the time to check, but my guess is that the ebay Vol.2 is
the 1909 edition or second volume of Sime's work, also on the Professor's
website.

On a hunch, I linked to other listings from this same seller. The needle
lace download, also two volumes, also with new covers, is really  DMC
Dillmont, Thérèse de. Needle-Made Laces; 1st Series, D.M.C, 1900 and July
1910, also available on the Professor's  website. Check the same link above
to find it.

Free to download or available for purchase at a reasonable cost, as stated
recently on the list.

IMHO, selling a copy of Sime's lace book(s) that is downloaded (or
downloadable) from the Professor's website on ebay (or anywhere else) with
a "new" cover is illegal or unethical, take your pick.

To make a profit off the tedious work of others who are devoted to the
preservation of lace and other textiles for present and future
generationsand/or to knowingly sell what is freely available to naive
and eager lacemakers is despicable.

Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of the owner of the ebay listing. I have no
connection to the Professor's website, other than as a very appreciative
lacemaker with interests in history and women's achievements..

Sara
Paducah, KY


 This is the item number 260174595731 .
>
> I must admit that I do take a bit of offense at the automatic
> assumption that the person selling the book has stolen it and that it
> is an illegal copy. Yes, it may be, however it may NOT be as well. It
> may be someone who wrote the book on their own and is selling it this
> way instead of through a publishing house that keeps the bulk of the
> money that the book is sold for. Unless a book sells HUGE numbers an
> author really gets a tiny amount of money for all the work.
>
> If this IS an illegal copy and is in fact the work of the Professor
> would you please let me know.  There are a bunch of screen shots of
> the pages so it should be pretty obvious to those who have seen the
> Professor's work. If not, would you please post that as well so that
> people know that this is not an illegal copy and that the assumption
> you just gave was incorrect.
>
>
> Shere'e

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Re: [lace] Re: [lace-chat] Preference of book format

[clayblackwell]

I'm sorry if I offended you with the information which I posted.  It is a fact 
that many of the things posted on the Archives were downloaded and then sold 
for profit.  I stated clearly that I did not know which book you were referring 
to, but that many e-books related to lace which are offered could have been 
downloaded from the website.

But as a point of information, I went to the particular book you were referring 
to.  The pictures are too small to read, but the style of the book and the 
pictures are clearly not 21st century.  In addition, the seller urges us to 
look at "our" other books, and among them is Charlotte Kellogg's "Bobbins of 
Belgium", which is certainly one of the books on the website, and the author is 
not the same as the book you have brought to our attention.  So your suggestion 
that the seller wrote the books him/herself is just not possible.

I stand by my caution:  if you see a book listed on eBay on disk, or as a 
download, you can save yourself money by going to the website and downloading 
it from the source!  If you want it on disk, you will get many, many more books 
as well on the disk which contains the information you're interested in.

Clay

--
Clay Blackwell 
Lynchburg, VA USA 


-- Original message -- 
From: Shere'e <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

> On 10/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
> > I don't know which eBay offering you're referring to, but I would really 
> > like 
> to take this opportunity to advise all Arachnids that in the not-too-distant 
> past, the Professor's website at the University of Arizona was easily 
> accessible 
> to all. No one ever imagined that people interested in weaving and lacemaking 
> would steal the work of others and sell it to others. 
> > 
> 
> This is the item number 260174595731 . 
> 
> I must admit that I do take a bit of offense at the automatic 
> assumption that the person selling the book has stolen it and that it 
> is an illegal copy. Yes, it may be, however it may NOT be as well. It 
> may be someone who wrote the book on their own and is selling it this 
> way instead of through a publishing house that keeps the bulk of the 
> money that the book is sold for. Unless a book sells HUGE numbers an 
> author really gets a tiny amount of money for all the work. 
> 
> If this IS an illegal copy and is in fact the work of the Professor 
> would you please let me know. There are a bunch of screen shots of 
> the pages so it should be pretty obvious to those who have seen the 
> Professor's work. If not, would you please post that as well so that 
> people know that this is not an illegal copy and that the assumption 
> you just gave was incorrect. 
> 
> 
> Shere'e 
> Seattle, WA USA 
> -- 
> www.webeweddings.com 
> Unique Weddings for Unique Couples 

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Re: [lace] Iitem number 260174595731

[Laceandbits]

In a message dated 25/10/2007 16:40:41 GMT Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Then there's a link to the person selling on ebay, and at the bottom a 
> claim for the copyright 1993-2007 John Mark Ockerbloom 
> ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), which I'm sure isn't legal because the scans are in the 
> public domain on 
> the professor's site and the book is out of copyright..

Perhaps it's the actual presentation that can be covered by copyright, in the 
same way that if you make a pattern from an old piece of lace, you can claim 
the copyright on it (Ruth Bean and Miss Channer's mat come to mind).  Or it's 
all lies but the seller hopes the false copyright claim will make people less 
likely to challenge him.

I have written to ask on what grounds he/she feels they have copyright.  It 
will be interesting to see if I get a response.  Watch this space, but don't 
hold your breath :-)

Unfortunately it is being sold as a 'Buy It Now' item.  I write to the buyers 
if I find these on e-bay, telling them it's a con because they can look at 
and download them for free, and lots more besides.  I had lots of thanks too!

Jacquie, in Lincolnshire, a big fan of 'Tess and the Professor's CDs'.   

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[lace] copied books

[Tess Parrish]

Well, sure, it's too bad that people make money off other people.   
However, if you think about it, this eBay person has come up with a  
hard copy of what is only available on the Archives site as a PDF or  
as a CD on Kris' site.  There is a place where you can order books  
made up from CD files (and probably other forms of computer saves)  
called   They will make a very nice copy for you in various  
bindings of your choice.  It costs something, of course, and if this  
person is making up the cost of the binding plus the postage and  
other fees, I say let them go to it.  The material is on our site for  
anyone to use and enjoy within reasonable limits.  We are just happy  
that it is there for all who want it.


Remember, anything that is on the Archives site is out of copyright.   
That means it is free for the taking, scanning, using, etc.  So check  
any books that you suspect might be from the site: it will have to  
have been published before 1923, or after with the written consent of  
the author. Or, in case of doubt, you can always look up www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/> and do a Search.


I like real books better than CDs, too, just to slip my druthers into  
the conversation!


Tess ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [lace] copied books

[Laceandbits]

No, Tess, that's the whole point.

The 'book' for sale on e-bay is a download only.  You don't even get a CD!  
So there is no advantage at all in paying $7.95 instead of looking it up on the 
Arizona site.  That's what makes it such a con.  

It's a good job that at least everyone on Arachne and all our friends and 
aquaintances will know about the good work you did, and be protected to some 
extent from these 'entrepreneurs'.

Jacquie   

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Re: [lace] Iitem number 260174595731

[sof]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
In a message dated 25/10/2007 16:40:41 GMT Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Then there's a link to the person selling on ebay, and at the bottom a 
claim for the copyright 1993-2007 John Mark Ockerbloom 
([EMAIL PROTECTED]), which I'm sure isn't legal because the scans are in the public domain on 
the professor's site and the book is out of copyright..


Perhaps it's the actual presentation that can be covered by copyright, in the 
same way that if you make a pattern from an old piece of lace, you can claim 
the copyright on it (Ruth Bean and Miss Channer's mat come to mind).  Or it's 
all lies but the seller hopes the false copyright claim will make people less 
likely to challenge him.


I have written to ask on what grounds he/she feels they have copyright.  It 
will be interesting to see if I get a response.  Watch this space, but don't 
hold your breath :-)


Unfortunately it is being sold as a 'Buy It Now' item.  I write to the buyers 
if I find these on e-bay, telling them it's a con because they can look at 
and download them for free, and lots more besides.  I had lots of thanks too!


Jacquie, in Lincolnshire, a big fan of 'Tess and the Professor's CDs'.   


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Hello,

I just write to DMC to ask them if it's legal to buy it and give them 
the link!! In France, they have reputation to be strict with copyright.


There is a lots of books in this ebay seller site and I look perhaps 10 
and all are old books. I find some one on professor's website.


Sof from France a big fan too

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Re: [lace] More on item number 260174595731

[Shere'e]

On 10/25/07, Jean Nathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sara wrote:
>
> Shere'e wrote:
>
>  selling it on EBay that it was an illegal copy of something.>
>
> It wasn't because someone was selling it on ebay that the assumption was
> that it was illegal, but because it was obviously an old book - the
diagrams
> and text layout being good clues to this. Chances are that if it's out of
> copyright, it's already on the professor's site and the few copies of the
> original books still in existence are difficult to track down as Tess and
> her helpers know. They and the professor put the work in, and someone else
> is profitting from their work and time given freely. Plus, I recognised it
> as one of the books I had on one of the Professor's discs, and perhaps
> others had too.
>

Below is the origional posting that he sent that I find offensive. You will
see that he did NOT know what the book was but immediatly assumed that it
was an illegal copy anyway THAT is what I found offensive. If you are going
to immediatly jump to the conculsion that something is illegal WITHOUT
KNOWING what was posted for sale (yes it looks like it may be taken from
someone else's work but that is not the point here)  I have highlighted the
key sentances in red. To me at least, this is dismissing those authors who
choose to sell their work in this manner and basicly brands them all as
illegal theives of others work without knowing for sure that this is the
case.

***
I don't know which eBay offering you're referring to, but I would really
like to take this opportunity to advise all Arachnids that in the
not-too-distant past, the Professor's website at the University of Arizona
was easily accessible to all.  No one ever imagined that people interested
in weaving and lacemaking would steal the work of others and sell it to
others.

However, there is good evidence that during that time, a number of people
downloaded many files and compiled them into disks of books about weaving,
lacemaking, and in some cases, a combination of the two.  These offerings on
eBay are almost certainly illegal downloads from the work of the Professor,
and the work of Tess Parrish who scanned most of the lace documents
involved.

The website now requires registration in order to download for your own use,
but this helps prevent the wholesale download of the entire library.  CDs
are available for LESS than the eBay selling price when you consider the
quantity (and quality) of the information you get on your legal CD.

So I fervently ask all lacemakers to avoid the offerings on eBay, and
instead to support the work which was begun by Professor Ralph
Griswald,with the assistance of Tess Parrish, and which is ongoing
under the careful
webmastery of Professor Griswald's successor (whose name escapes me... I am
so sorry!).

Sincerely,

Clay
-

Shere'e
Seattle, WA USA
-- 
www.webeweddings.com
Unique Weddings for Unique Couples

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[lace] Re: CD or Book

[Mandolyn Day]

Being in the IT industry, I know CD's have a shelf life. I also consider the 
risk involved in owning/using a CD. The obvious, they can get scratched or 
cracked making them unreadable. If the head on your CD drive gets out of 
alignment, & that happens more often than one realises, it will damage the CD. 
How you store the CD has an affect on how long it will last. Eventually, the 
coating on a CD that allows it to be written to will deteriorate. A LOT of 
chemicals will damage or shorten the life of a CD including those nice markers 
everyone uses, as well as the glue on labels. I imagine, whatever printing 
medium used to label disks is ultimately harmful. Have you seen a CD shatter 
when you drop it on a hard surface? Scarey! CD's are only as good as the 
software the burns them.

That said, I vote for a book. I'm a techno geek & I LOVE computers. I lug my 
new, heavy dell laptop with a 15.4" screen with me all the time wherever I go. 
I don't like reading books on my 'puter, though. 

If the prickings are on the CD, there'd have to be some way to make them 
smaller or larger - you can do that with a book & a copier. That means there 
has to be some software there to make the size adjustments. Then the questions 
arises, "Can I do that on my MAC?"






Mandy

My Blog:  http://360.yahoo.com/mandolynday
 __
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: [lace] Re: [lace-chat] Preference of book format

[Shere'e]

Yes, I know that copyright infringement happens all the time. We deal
with it constantly at the landmark I work for here in Seattle. We have
to go after people so much for it that our lawyers have the basic
forms filled out on a template in their computer!

Where I got offended was the assumption that because someone was
selling it on EBay that it was an illegal copy of something.  I have
no connection to the person selling it and I have never bought it as I
think they have it really overpriced for what you are getting (an
emailed document) but the simple assumption without seeing it that it
is stolen from someone else and going off on how nobody should buy
things from EBay for that reason is wrong. I know of a few people who
have written books that have sold them this way due to the lower cost
of getting their work out to others and the fact that a publisher
takes over 90% of the proceeds of the book unless you are someone like
Stephen King.

Shere'e
Seattle, WA USA
-- 
www.webeweddings.com
Unique Weddings for Unique Couples

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RE: [lace] Preference of book format

[Andrea Lamble]

Such a shame that all these messages about the book format are coming into the
lace in box. I feel it would have been much better if Carole had requested we
contact her 'off list'. As she says in her message she will provide a summary.
It's not impossible that there is some interesting 'lace' content in some of
the reply messages but the subject line discourages one from want to bother
opening the message 'just in case'.
Maybe I'm just being a 'grumpy old woman', but is this really lace!

Andrea Lamble

Cambridge, UK, but off to Portugal tomorrow for a week to visit my father who
moved there a few years ago.
> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:09:01 -0400> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; lace@arachne.com> Subject: [lace] Preference of book
format> > I'm doing an informal survey and would value your opinions. Would
you purchase a pattern book on CD if the CD insert showed thumbnail photos of
the finished lace? If you had the choice of a printed pattern book--let's
assume that it is not a hardbound volume--or a CD, which would you purchase?
If you opted for the CD, how would you use it--to print out the entire
publication, or only those patterns that were of specific interest to you.
What would you consider a fair price for a pattern book on CD?> > Thanks for
your responses!! I'll keep track of the responses and offer a summary in a
couple weeks after folks have had time to respond.> > Carole> Dublin, OH USA>
> -> To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line:>
unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_
Feel like a local wherever you go.

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[lace] Final notice -- lace card exchange

[Alice Howell]

Today is the last day for entering the Christmas Lace
Card Exchange.

If you sign up, you would be given a partner to
exchange cards with.  The cards must have some kind of
handmade lace in or on it.  Any kind of lace is fine.

You may sign up for one, two or three exchanges.  The
cards are to be mailed by Dec. 5.

Send me your:
Name
Address
Email
Number of Cards

DO IT NOW if you want to participate but haven't sent
me an email.  Partners will be notified by Monday.

Happy lacing,
Alice in Oregon

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Re: [lace] Preference of book format

[Barron]

personally I'm enjoying all the different points of view
jenny barron
Scotland
Such a shame that all these messages about the book format are coming into the
lace in box. I feel it would have been much better if Carole had requested we
contact her 'off list'.

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Re: [lace] Preference of book format

[C Johnson]

Hello all,

I must admit that one could see this as an "off-lace" topic, but I for one, 
have been enlightened concerning the pros and cons of books versus media. 
It is all a part of lace to me.

I live in an area that has no other lacer that I know of within a 50 minute 
drive of me without my books, cd's and whatnot, my threads would 
probably not be made into laceThe internet is a vital part of lacemaking 
to me.

Selling off copies of books or CDs is always a problem copyright and 
giving credit where credit is due - and the proper ways to go about doing so 
can be confusing.  It never hurts to be reminded of the procedures, and with 
all of us doing so many different kinds of lace, where would we be without 
our books, prickings, and such.

I have been following this line of talk all morning and found it 
fascinating.

Thanks everyone,
Susie
Morris, IL


  - Original Message - 
  From: Barron
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lace@arachne.com
  Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 1:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [lace] Preference of book format


  personally I'm enjoying all the different points of view
  jenny barron
  Scotland
  Such a shame that all these messages about the book format are coming into 
the
  lace in box. I feel it would have been much better if Carole had requested 
we
  contact her 'off list'.

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  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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Re: [lace] Re: [lace-chat] Preference of book format

[clayblackwell]

The problem here is you inferred something that I did not imply.  I warned 
about a known practice.  I did not make the assumption that the book in 
question was definitely one of those taken off the Professor's site, because in 
fact, you had not told us yet what book it was.  But, as it happens, that book 
had been downloaded (legally), but was being sold for personal gain.  So you 
were making the assumptions.  And, BTW, I never said that people shouldn't buy 
things from eBay.  

Curious that you're more worried about assumptions (which you've made, left and 
right), than you are about the ethics or legality of the practice which your 
bookseller seems to have been doing for some time.

Clay

--
Clay Blackwell 
Lynchburg, VA USA 


-- Original message -- 
From: "Shere'e" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

> 
> Where I got offended was the assumption that because someone was 
> selling it on EBay that it was an illegal copy of something. I have 
> no connection to the person selling it and I have never bought it as I 
> think they have it really overpriced for what you are getting (an 
> emailed document) but the simple assumption without seeing it that it 
> is stolen from someone else and going off on how nobody should buy 
> things from EBay for that reason is wrong. I know of a few people who 
> have written books that have sold them this way due to the lower cost 
> of getting their work out to others and the fact that a publisher 
> takes over 90% of the proceeds of the book unless you are someone like 
> Stephen King. 
> 
> Shere'e 
> Seattle, WA USA 
> -- 
> www.webeweddings.com 
> Unique Weddings for Unique Couples 
> 
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> To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: 
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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[lace] Preference of book format

[Brenda Paternoster]

Like many of you I much prefer a real book to a CD, and if there's more 
than a couple of sentences that I really need to understand I have to 
print out a hard copy.  That plus the problems of the limited life 
expectancy of a CD mean that I say give me a proper book any day.


However, an accompanying CD of any patterns in the book would be good 
because printing from  file is usually much more accurate than 
photocopying or scanning, especially of the pages are tightly bound.  
OK, depending on your computer/printer set up some things will print 
larger or smaller, but the overall length:width ratio doesn't change 
unless it's told to.  Most photocopiers do distort that ratio.


Brenda in Allhallows, Kent
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html

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[lace] Need translation

[Lorri Ferguson]

I am hoping to start a Christmas lace piece and need some help please.

I have Brigitte Bellon's Gekloppelter Weihnachtsschmck,  I want to do 'Muster
4 - Kleine Kerze'.
I can tell it needs 4 pr Linen 60/2 and 2 pr Metallic.  What does 'Nr. 12'
mean?

I would also like to know what the paragraph of text says.  I believe I can
puzzle out the working of the pattern with just the picture and pricking, but
am really interested in the text.

Is there a translation of this book available?  or can someone translate this
page please?

Lorri F
Graham, WA.

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Re: [lace] Need translation

[bevw]

Hi Lorri and everyone

 I can help.

The Nr. 12 is a measure and I'm thinking it is the Madeira Metallic No. 12
listed in Brenda's Threads for Lace  - I use DMC Fil Or or the Mouliné
metallic embroidery floss, one or two strands depending on the pricking.
I don't think there is an English translation available and from my
experience with this delightful book, the text only re-states what is
described in the prickings and diagram.
When I really want to find out what the text is all about, I type it into
babelfish and most of the time I don't learn anything more than what I've
already decided from reading the pricking.
I might have a printout from such a translation in my notes; I'll contact
you privately if so.

HTH

On 10/25/07, Lorri Ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have Brigitte Bellon's Gekloppelter Weihnachtsschmck,  I want to do
> 'Muster
> 4 - Kleine Kerze'I can tell it needs 4 pr Linen 60/2 and 2 pr
> Metallic.  What does 'Nr. 12'
> mean?...
> I would also like to know what the paragraph of text says. ...
> Is there a translation of this book available?  or can someone translate
> this
> page please?
>

--
Bev in Sooke BC (on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada)

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Re: [lace] Re: Preference of book format

[robinlace]

From: purple lacer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> As others have stated, what if 
> current CD technology becomes outdated someday?  What if your CD 
becomes 
> corrupted?  Or you drop it and it breaks?  Books have survived for 
> a long, long time!

I, too, am a book-lover, but I'd like to point out that books don't 
last the way they used to, either.  Nowadays, they're printed on much 
cheaper paper, often with significant acid content that causes 
yellowing in a few years.  Many modern books aren't going to last any 
longer than a CD.  Add to that the environmental problems associated 
with massive paper-production and I find myself in a quandary.  I feel 
I ought to be advocating (and buying) CD "books" instead of paper 
ones.  However, I find it a lot harder to read a screen than paper.  
And it's a lot harder to shuffle back and forth between items (how do 
these two patterns differ?  where are the explanations for this 
notation?).  I strongly prefer bound paper books.

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
(formerly  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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