[lace] Traditional and modern

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Arachnids

Re: Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 22:40:48 +0100
From: Kathleen Harris 
Subject: [lace] Traditional and modern lace.

I started making lace in 1970, and in 1980 I started to learn Bucks point


I agree. I teach traditional lacemaking but will also help students develop
their own modern patterns and adapt techniques to accomplish them. Surely what
matters is producing something that is beautiful and will stand the test of
time, I think Marjorie thought the same way. Being ‘modern’ is not
necessarily good and we have had too many examples of the Emperors New Clothes
made using only basic stitches and very thick thread, many times the maker not
understanding the implications of what she is doing.  Adding colour means that
the design must be more simple to avoid overload on the part of the viewer.
Using thick thread for a hanging means that the weight of the thread must be
taken into consideration and the structure of the lace designed accordingly.
Traditional fine lace is so light that this is not a factor.

Have fun designing and, please, no more new clothes for the Emperor.

Blow the dust

Alex

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Re: [lace] Traditional and modern

[catherinebar...@btinternet.com]

Sent from my iPad 

Catherine Barley Needlelace
www.catherinebarley.com

> On 19 May 2018, at 08:09, Alex Stillwell  wrote:
> 
> Surely what
> matters is producing something that is beautiful and will stand the test of
> time, I think Marjorie thought the same way. Being ‘modern’ is not
> necessarily good and we have had too many examples of the Emperors New Clothes
> made using only basic stitches and very thick thread, many times the maker not
> understanding the implications of what she is doing. 
> Have fun designing and, please, no more new clothes for the Emperor.

Well done Alex, my view too and thank you for having the courage to air your 
views on the subject!

Catherine Barley
U.K. and not far from Windsor where the Royal wedding takes place today.  I 
shall be watching on TV and wondering if the bride's dress will be of lace or 
not, but if it is, it certainly will not be of the hand made variety!

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RE: [lace] Traditional and modern

[J-D Hammett]

Hi fellow Arachnids,

Well said Alex! Just my sentiments. Always remembering that one does need to
be able to use the tools and techniques of yesteryear as well as the NEW tools
and techniques to create modern beauty for the future.

Happy lace making,

Joepie, East Sussex, UK on a beautiful sunny day.


From: Alex Stillwell


I started making lace in 1970, and in 1980 I started to learn Bucks point


I agree. I teach traditional lacemaking but will also help students develop
their own modern patterns and adapt techniques to accomplish them.<..
.>Using thick thread for a hanging means that the weight of the thread
must be
taken into consideration and the structure of the lace designed accordingly.
Traditional fine lace is so light that this is not a factor.

Have fun designing and, please, no more new clothes for the Emperor.

Blow the dust

Alex

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[lace] The veil

[lynrbailey]

Beautiful wedding.  Sadly no lace on the dress, but a beautiful one 
nonetheless.  What do we know about the lace veil?

Lyn in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA, where it is pouring rain and chilly.  

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Re: [lace] The veil

[jviking]

BBC said "embroidered flowers" on the veil.  The flowers representing all
of the 53 members of the Commonwealth. I hope we'll be able to see some
close-ups. Very elegant dress!

Jane in Vermont, USA who has enjoyed the festivities so far
jvik...@sover.net

> Beautiful wedding.  Sadly no lace on the dress, but a beautiful one
> nonetheless.  What do we know about the lace veil?
>
> Lyn in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA, where it is pouring rain and chilly.
>

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Re: [lace] The veil

[Brenda Paternoster]

TV commentary said that it is embroidered with the national flower from each
Commonwealth country.  53 of them.

Brenda
>
> What do we know about the lace veil?

Brenda in Allhallows

paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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[lace] Duchess of Sussex veil

[Susan]

What a knock out veil!  I immediately wondered if the flowers were tamboured?  
So far, all I’ve seen online is “hand embroidered” & absolutely no mention of 
the Royal School.  Curious to know what others know about this piece; how & 
where it might have been made.  Sincerely, Susan Hottle USA 

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Re: [lace] The veil

[catherinebar...@btinternet.com]

Sent from my iPad 

Catherine Barley Needlelace
www.catherinebarley.com

> On 19 May 2018, at 15:11, Brenda Paternoster  
> wrote:
> 
> TV commentary said that it is embroidered with the national flower from each
> Commonwealth country.  53 of them.
> 
I guess that's why it was so long, but it was beautiful!

Catherine Barley
> 

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Re: [lace] Duchess of Sussex veil

[Karen ZM]

On Sat, 19 May 2018 at 5:11 PM, Susan  wrote:

> What a knock out veil!


I thought so too.

Karen in Malta

>
>
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Re: [lace] The veil

[lynrbailey]

I actually heard about the 53 Commonwealth flowers but didn’t pick up
that they were on the veil. Must have been pouring myself more tea.
 Thanks Susie!
Lyn from Lancaster PA

  From: Susie Rose

Hello to One and All!
Here's what I've found out about the veil.
The veil was the real show-stopper! Upon the bride's wishes to
incorporate the 53 countries of the Commonwealth, the nations in which
the Queen is head, the designer researched and added flora from these
locations, including Wintersweet from Kensington Palace and California
Poppy, from her home state of California, into the look. The silk tulle
veil measured in at five meters long, or about five and a half yards!
That's all I've found out so far.

Hugs, Susie Rose  [IMAGE]

My stores:
https://susierosedesigns.zibbet.com
http://www.craftsy.com/user/49409/pattern-store
Blog:  http://fiberismybag.wordpress.com 



From: "lynrbai...@supernet.com" 
To: lace@arachne.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2018 5:39 AM
Subject: [lace] The veil

Beautiful wedding.  Sadly no lace on the dress, but a beautiful one
nonetheless.  What do we know about the lace veil?

Lyn in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA, where it is pouring rain and
chilly. 



"My email
sends out an automatic  message. Arachne members,
please ignore it. I read your
emails."

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[lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi]

Friends

Both Devon and Alex Stillwell have pointed out to me that some of the
finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes
intuitive sense.
I have a math learning disability so I wouldn't be able to follow more than
superficially, but allowing for that, does anyone have any anecdotes or
observations that would be good to know about?

I ought to mention that poor old Bobby is endlessly queried -- tacitly as
well as openly -- if he is gay. One of the themes I am exploring is what
appears to be the problem of Bobby's masculinity. Knowing something about
math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you), would be an
interesting wrinkle since in the United States, math and computers are
coded as masculine activities.

(The latter is not a universal gender-category. In Iran, for example, math
and engineering are distinctly *not* coded as masculine.)

Sharon

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[lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Anita Hansen]

I have heard this mentioned before too that many lacemakers are in these 
fields. I, myself, have a Mathmatics degree and worked as a software engineer 
for 20+ years. However, I really don’t think my math skills have anything to do 
with my ability to make lace.  I sorely lack in artistic skills (the other side 
of the brain) and greatly admire the lacemakers who are also designers. Yes, I 
can implement their designs (Binche is my favorite) with adequate instruction.  
I think if you replace “engineer” and “mathematician” with other professions 
you will also find many lacemakers that fit those categories as well. People 
also say math folks are good with music not me!
Anita Hansen
Cedar Rapids, Iowa

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Re: [lace] Duchess of Sussex veil

[Sue Harvey]

The embroidery on it was the emblems of the 53 Commonwealth countries,we we 
told the queens veil also had the Commonwealth emblems  on It too  but at that 
time they were only 8  in number.
Sue M Harvey
Norfolk UK 

Sent from my iPad

> 

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[lace] Veil

[Lacelady]

I saw a program at the Royal School of Needlework.  They said they could not 
comment on any project but they would not deny working on the wedding. I assume 
they  made the veil. We should hear more about it soon.
Alice in Oregon

T-Mobile, America's First Nationwide 4G Network

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Kathleen Harris]

Marjory Carter, who I mentioned as my Bucks point tutor, had been a maths 
teacher in a grammar school, until she retired. She learned her lace from a 
lady with whom she lodged when she was training as a teacher. I started to take 
courses with her in 1980, so I guess she would have retired in 1975 after 
40years of teaching. These dates are guesses, but cannot be far out, I hope.

Sent from my iPad

> On 19 May 2018, at 17:50, Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi  
> wrote:
> 
> Friends
> 
> Both Devon and Alex Stillwell have pointed out to me that some of the
> finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes
> intuitive sense.
> I have a math learning disability so I wouldn't be able to follow more than
> superficially, but allowing for that, does anyone have any anecdotes or
> observations that would be good to know about?
> 
> I ought to mention that poor old Bobby is endlessly queried -- tacitly as
> well as openly -- if he is gay. One of the themes I am exploring is what
> appears to be the problem of Bobby's masculinity. Knowing something about
> math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you), would be an
> interesting wrinkle since in the United States, math and computers are
> coded as masculine activities.
> 
> (The latter is not a universal gender-category. In Iran, for example, math
> and engineering are distinctly *not* coded as masculine.)
> 
> Sharon
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
> unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to
> arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
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Re: [lace] Duchess of Sussex veil

[Susan]

Yes, Queen Elizabeth’s coronation gown had Commonwealth emblems embroidered on 
it. It was designed by Hartnell & embroidered at the Royal School.  Susan 
Hottle USA 

Sent from my iPad

> On May 19, 2018, at 4:08 PM, Sue Harvey  wrote:
> 
> The embroidery on it was the emblems of the 53 Commonwealth countries... 

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Adele Shaak]

It seems to me that lacemaking provides many things to many people. Small 
children can learn simple Torchon patterns quite easily. Adults with no 
particular math skills may make lace their whole lives without ever finding a 
need to go dig out their trig tables (yes, I know that dates me, but you know 
what I mean). However lacemaking is the only craft I’ve every participated in 
where, at the advanced levels, I keep running into engineers and math whizzes 
and rocket scientists. Honestly! Rocket scientists! Well, I suppose they have 
to do something with their spare time.

My anecdote about this, is a lacemaker I know, a math whiz. Many people have 
problems with the Flanders ground, and for various reasons Flanders is often 
considered advanced. She asked “what is Flanders Ground”, took one look at a 
picture, said “right you are” and proceeded to start making perfect Flanders. I 
think it is that intuitive understanding that leads these people into 
lacemaking and makes the more complex laces more desirable for them.

Now, before everybody goes ballistic - I am not saying that you can’t make 
Flanders or Binche or any other of the more advanced laces if you don’t have 
good math skills. I’m just saying that people who do have good math skills may 
be drawn to that type of lace.

Adele
West Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)'




18, at 9:50 AM, Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi  wrote:
> 
> Friends
> 
> Both Devon and Alex Stillwell have pointed out to me that some of the
> finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes
> intuitive sense.
> I have a math learning disability so I wouldn't be able to follow more than
> superficially, but allowing for that, does anyone have any anecdotes or
> observations that would be good to know about?
> 
> I ought to mention that poor old Bobby is endlessly queried -- tacitly as
> well as openly -- if he is gay. One of the themes I am exploring is what
> appears to be the problem of Bobby's masculinity. Knowing something about
> math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you), would be an
> interesting wrinkle since in the United States, math and computers are
> coded as masculine activities.
> 
> (The latter is not a universal gender-category. In Iran, for example, math

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[N.A. Neff]

A few observations:

First there were indeed computer engineers who were lacemakers in the
1980s. I started programming in the mid-1960s (well before PCs or Macs or
the Internet), and I was mesmerized by making bobbin lace from the first
time I saw it done in the mid-1980s. For the first several years, I taught
myself from books, Torchon, Bucks, and a little tape lace to start, later
Flanders and Binche. Bobbin lace has always made intuitive sense to me.

This much is entirely anecdotal, but when I'm working on a difficult piece
of lace, especially Binche, it feels the same in my head as when I'm
designing an algorithm or working out how to code one as a software
engineer. I can't explain it any better than that, certainly I can't really
describe what it "feels" like, but I do know that software design and
bobbin lacemaking feel the same to me, and not like anything else.
(Including not needlelace or tatting or any other kind of lacemaking.)

Finally, I do think there is some mathematical basis for my subjective
experience. Back in 2002 I heard in a computer science seminar a passing
reference to a branch of topology (a type of mathematics) called braid
theory, citing it as a possible mechanism for information storage and
retrieval. More exciting to me, I recognized cross and twist in the
diagrams shown briefly in the seminar. Braid theory statements and bobbin
lace are mathematically equivalent. Look up braid theory in Wikipedia. Also
do a search on Veronika Irvine on the Web (tesselace.com). She published a
paper in 2014, and subsequently did a PhD dissertation, on this
equivalence, including generating new bobbin lace grounds by computer.

Now I agree with Adele, that all this is not saying that only maths whizzes
can do bobbin lace, but I do think there are a suspiciously high proportion
of math and computer science types in the lacemaking world. Also,
self-reporting of an inability to do math and computer science is suspect
to me. It's nerdy and not cool to be good in those fields, but humans have
an innate mathematical ability just like we have language ability, and
little kids take to programming and algorithm development like ducks to
water. (That metaphor is deliberately chosen.)

So in summary, I firmly believe that there is a relationship there, based
both on personal subjective experience and on recent technical developments.

Nancy
Connecticut,  USA

On Sat, May 19, 2018, 12:55 Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi 
wrote:

> ...some of the
> finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes
> intuitive sense...
> ...Knowing something about
> math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you)...
>

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Re: [lace] Beiderman and Kliot (Verify surname Bei? Bie?)

[N.A. Neff]

PS: Google books lists the senior author of her book as Gertrude Biedermann
(...ie... and two n's):
https://books.google.com/books/about/Traditional_Bobbin_Lace.html?id=dwcZCAAJ

>
> On Fri, May 18, 2018, 14:39 Jeri Ames  wrote:
>
>> ...In the interest of clarity for present and future lace scholars, is
>> Gertrude's surname spelled Bei.. or Bie.. ?...
>>
>

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[lace] Lace and Math

[lynrbailey]

Daddy was a farm boy who ended up a thermonuclear physicist.  I do not like 
numbers, but math without numbers is easy.  Logic, making triangles congruent, 
seeing patterns, noticing differences, Easy peasy.  My kids aren't any better 
with numbers, but they had calculators, so my daughter is an engineer, and my 
son was a math major, and the younger son studied chemical engineering.  

I have watched beginning lace students work so hard wrapping their brains 
around the movement of the threads.  I think lacemaking the way it is done 
today, not as a moneymaking endeavor but a pastime cum exercise, attracts 
people with minds with certain skills related to mathematics, not arithmetic.  
I also suspect that lacemaking can do something to develop those skills.  I 
have tried to figure out a way to teach girls lacemaking in order to develop 
the mathematical abilities boys develop in 'manly' ways.  We don't usually give 
girls chemistry sets, or erector sets, or crystal radio kits.  Lacemaking is a 
girly thing, as it is presently done, and thus would be acceptable to grade 
school girls who are intent on being girls.  Problem is, there is no proof 
learning to make bobbin lace helps to develop a mathematical mind.  It seems 
logical from what I have observed about myself and about other lacemakers, but 
that would not be persuasive to teachers.  I was amazed when I notic!
 ed all the mathematically inclined who took to bobbin lace. 

Lyn from Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA  


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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[Elena Kanagy-Loux]

Hello all,

The seemingly natural attraction of those in the STEM field to lacemaking
has fascinated me for some time. I remember attending Ithaca Lace Day a
couple of years ago and after repeatedly hearing that so-and-so was a
mathematician or scientist, and I was intrigued by the connection. My
explanation for bobbin lace structure to the uninitiated is that it's like
a circuit board - you have figure out how to connect pairs of bobbins
across your pillow. I think this is a fertile subject and have personally
considered researching it further for a possible article topic.

Best,
Elena

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[N.A. Neff]

Hi Elena,

It would be interesting to do a survey of the bobbin-lacemaking members of
IOLI about area of education, highest degree obtained and when, career
field, types of bobbin lace specialized in, maybe things like primarily
self-taught or not, others?, and compare the stats from that to stats from
the Dept of Labor and other US government agencies for a comparable
population (age distribution, income perhaps, etc.) I realize this would be
US-centric, but I'm not sure if OIDFA membership would be as representative
a sample. Statistical analysis would be relatively straightforward once one
figured out to discretize and categorize the data--the devil is in the
details of the latter task! If you do it, my unsolicited advice is to frame
lots of hypotheses first and work really hard on getting the survey
questionnaire right relative to those hypotheses. I hope you pursue it!!

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

On Sat, May 19, 2018, 22:20 Elena wrote
...considered researching it further for a possible article topic...

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Re: [lace] Lace and Math

[Marianne Gallant]

I read several yeas ago that there were studies done that found that
knitting helps with developing math skills. It didn't mention the
supposed theory behind it, but I am now wondering if it has something to
do with the rhythmic movements. Considering that knitting is very
rhythmic, and so is bobbin lace. The movements themselves are very basic
and repetitive, but different combinations of the movements make the
pattern. Same goes for math, or computer coding.

*Marianne*

Marianne Gallant
Vernon, BC Canada
m...@shaw.ca
http://threadsnminis.blogspot.ca, https://www.facebook.com/GallantCreation/


> I have watched beginning lace students work so hard wrapping their brains
around the movement of the threads.  I think lacemaking the way it is done
today, not as a moneymaking endeavor but a pastime cum exercise, attracts
people with minds with certain skills related to mathematics, not arithmetic.
I also suspect that lacemaking can do something to develop those skills.  I
have tried to figure out a way to teach girls lacemaking in order to develop
the mathematical abilities boys develop in 'manly' ways.  We don't usually
give girls chemistry sets, or erector sets, or crystal radio kits.  Lacemaking
is a girly thing, as it is presently done, and thus would be acceptable to
grade school girls who are intent on being girls.  Problem is, there is no
proof learning to make bobbin lace helps to develop a mathematical mind.  It
seems logical from what I have observed about myself and about other
lacemakers, but that would not be persuasive to teachers.  I was amazed when I
noticed all the mathematically inclined who took to bobbin lace.
>
>

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Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking

[robinlace]

I'm not 100 percent convinced of a math/engineering link with bobbin lace.  
First of all, I noticed years ago a lot of other sciences in 
lacemaking--biology (my field), chemistry, psychology, etc.  Also science 
fiction fanatics who never went into science (or math, computers, etc.).  I 
think of it more as "inquiring minds" and "puzzle solvers" than a particular 
field of study.  The only rocket scientist I've met is a quilter, with no 
interest in bobbin lace.

Second, I consider myself strongly right-brained, although I have enough 
left-brain function to not be "out in left field" like a few severely 
right-brained individuals I've known.  Don't give me a verbal description of 
what you want me to know, the words get totally in the way of my understanding. 
 Give me a map or a flow chart and I've got it in a second.  I believe any 
field of information has an underlying logic structure; if you see that 
structure the field is easy for you, if you don't see it you have to really 
work at getting the hang of it.  I failed miserably the section of chemistry on 
enzyme kinetics, I could not solve a single equation, although I could follow 
any demonstrations and see why the did what they did.  I've met people who can 
not "get" basic probability, no matter how many people tried to help them.  
When I first met bobbin lace (torchon) it was so logical I picked it right up.  
To me it's all about finding paths, which to me is mapmaking and spatial !
 relations = right-brain functions rather than math and logic which are 
left-brain functions.

I second the suggestion that someone (not me) do a survey of  lacemakers with 
STEM interest and/or training (not everyone who's fascinated with geology gets 
a geology degree) as well as other fields of endeavor.  The results would be 
most fascinating.

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
robinl...@socal.rr.com

Parvum leve mentes capiunt
(Little things amuse little minds)

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