Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus]

On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 10:55 PM Bo Berglund via lazarus <
lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 14:51:44 +0300, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus
>  wrote:
>
> >In this thread there is a point which is not clear for me :
> >
> >Compile
> >
> >(1)   programs in SERVER by using Lazarus installed in SERVER
> >(2)   programs in SERVER by using Lazarus installed in WORKSTATIONS
>
> I mean:
> Compile programs on the server (Lazarus running on the server) for use on
> any
> Linux machine based on The PC architecture (AMD/Intel CPU).
>




I have read all of the messages in this thread starting from your initial
email once more .

When you compile a program , it is possible to execute it another Windows
machine by assuming
that the next Windows version is able to execute the program .

In the Linux ( or Unix ) world , this is NOT the case : Each Linux version
of each Linux distribution has its OWN
library versions : There is NOT any standard library usage plan among the
Linux versions or Linux distributions .
Therefore , it is very likely ( with respect to me : exactly ) that you
will NOT be able to run your program in arbitrary Linux
distributions  IF YOU USE DYNAMICALLY LOADED LIBRARIES . I do not know the
situation when you use statically
linked libraries . it is  always not possible to use static linking because
each library does NOT have static libraries .
When there is not a static library , you need to compile the respective
sources to obtain a static library
WITH A  SERIOUS CONSIDERATION OF  STATIC LINKING POSSIBILITY  BY STUDYING
ITS LICENSE VERY CAREFULLY .



I can explain the situation with an example .

I have a Fedora Linux computer having a large number of repositories
stored  in a different disk from the Fedora 28 installed disk .
During a country-wise electric fluctuation my Fedora 28 disk has been
broken . I have installed Fedora 25 . Now ALL of the programs
are NOT executable because of dynamically loaded ( *.so ) libraries by
giving an error message about  *.so library mismatch .
I will install Fedora 35 . This will also require recompilation of ALL of
the repositories one by one .


Therefore , my opinion is your plan WILL NOT work if you use *.so libraries
, and try them to execute in different Linux computers
with different *.so files . You may think that  ALL of the  *.so files of
the libraries ARE the SAME :NO !
In your executable , the  EXACT   library version is recorded . During
execution of the program , the *.so file is NOT loaded , but
its EXACT matching name is searched : If it is NOT found , it is giving a
message saying that  the required   exact *.so file is not found :
*.so file with exact version number : for example : *.so.5.4.3 .


You need to check the static linking case whether it is possible to
execute your program in different  Linux ( versions , distributions ) .
I do not know the situation based on experiments because  in my NFS server
, all of the clients have the same Fedora version .

Version of the NFS server may be different from the client versions (
assume NFS versions are the same or compatible ) .
In the NFS server , there are the following directories alongside the
source directories :
Executables_for_FreeBSD
Executables_for_Linux

Previously , also

Executables_for_Windows_XP
Executables_for_Windows_7

I could NOT be able to connect to Windows_7 . Due to this I have removed
WIndows  directories and I have discontinued
use of Windows .

>From any client I am compiling ( Lazarus is installed in the client , BUT
you can install Lazarus in the server   IF YOUR VERSIONS OF
CLIENTS and SERVER ARE THE SAME in LINUX  if you use *.so libraries and use
it from the clients . If you use static linking , please check the result .
Do not forget that you will not be able to install Lazarus for FreeBSD in
server because it is Linux ( or different from the client )  )
programs by storing its executables into respective Linux or FreeBSD
directory and execute the programs in any client from its respective
directory .


As a result , my idea about your setup is : It requires adjusting
parameters of the components to obtain a consistent work
environment  with respect to your needs and availability of your tools  .


If you want to sell your program(s) to Linux user customers :  My
suggestion would be ( you may think a much more suitable method ,
or some other experts may suggest other ways ) :

Ask  them to learn their Linux distribution and its version and hardware
kind .
On a similar hardware and Linux distribution and version , install Lazarus
, compile your program(s) from your source repository
and supply your program(s) to your customer .


Mehmet Erol Sanliturk






> >other than use of cross compilation .
>
> I have never ever managed to set up a dev environment that could
> cross-compile,
> so I have to keep at least 3 different dev environments:
>
> - Linux on Raspberry Pi (ARM)
> - Linux on PC platform (AMD/Intel CPU)
> - W

Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Bo Berglund via lazarus]

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 14:51:44 +0300, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus
 wrote:

>In this thread there is a point which is not clear for me :
>
>Compile
>
>(1)   programs in SERVER by using Lazarus installed in SERVER
>(2)   programs in SERVER by using Lazarus installed in WORKSTATIONS

I mean:
Compile programs on the server (Lazarus running on the server) for use on any
Linux machine based on The PC architecture (AMD/Intel CPU).

>other than use of cross compilation .

I have never ever managed to set up a dev environment that could cross-compile,
so I have to keep at least 3 different dev environments:

- Linux on Raspberry Pi (ARM)
- Linux on PC platform (AMD/Intel CPU)
- Windows on PC (AMD/Intel CPU)

By compiling on the target "metal" I am sure the programs will run properly...

And for Linux I access the computers via VNC when I work. So I use my Windows 10
box as the work environment always.


-- 
Bo Berglund
Developer in Sweden

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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Juha Manninen via lazarus]

On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 1:06 PM Kostas Michalopoulos via lazarus <
lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> wrote:

> On 11/21/21 11:45, Juha Manninen via lazarus wrote:
> > LCL-QT5 works better than LCL-GTK2 now IMO.
>
> What are the issues on Gtk2 that are fixed in Qt5?
>

Different LCL bindings have their own bugs, and so do the underlying
libraries GTK2, QT5 etc.
LCL-QT5 and LCL-GTK2 both have bugs but LCL-QT5 has less of them. The
underlying QT5 is also less buggy than the old GTK2.

I agree with Michael. You need GTK2 development libraries initially when
building Lazarus from sources with "make".
LCL-QT5 bindings require the libQT5Pas (IIRC) which must be installed
manually in some systems. Manjaro + KDE has it nicely as a dependency.
Once you have them both installed you can freely select your favorite
widgetset.

Juha
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus]

I agree with you.

On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 3:01 PM Michael Van Canneyt 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote:
>
> > If you please study TrueNAS , you will see that it is possible to manage
> a
> > server with a
> >
> > "Web-based graphical user interface
> >  with optional
> SSL
> > encryption"
> >
> > from your computer using a GUI desktop connected to the server in your
> > local network .
> >
> > I do not know Ubuntu server in detail but there should be such features .
> >
> > This means that you do not need to convert your server to a gui desktop
> > using state but to select a suitable web based management system
> > and install it ( or them )  to manage your server from your workstation .
>
> OP wants to run Lazarus on his server. So he needs to install a desktop
> environment, because lazarus needs a GUI.
>
> It is possible to run lazbuild on a server without gui, if it is just used
> to compile.
> But from whay I understood, the OP wants to actually run Lazarus in a
> remote X session.
>
> In that case a WEB gui is not useful.
>
> Michael.
>
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus]

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote:


If you please study TrueNAS , you will see that it is possible to manage a
server with a

"Web-based graphical user interface
 with optional SSL
encryption"

from your computer using a GUI desktop connected to the server in your
local network .

I do not know Ubuntu server in detail but there should be such features .

This means that you do not need to convert your server to a gui desktop
using state but to select a suitable web based management system
and install it ( or them )  to manage your server from your workstation .


OP wants to run Lazarus on his server. So he needs to install a desktop
environment, because lazarus needs a GUI.

It is possible to run lazbuild on a server without gui, if it is just used to 
compile.
But from whay I understood, the OP wants to actually run Lazarus in a remote X 
session.

In that case a WEB gui is not useful.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus]

In this thread there is a point which is not clear for me :

Compile

(1)   programs in SERVER by using Lazarus installed in SERVER
(2)   programs in SERVER by using Lazarus installed in WORKSTATIONS

These are different approaches for the development and use of programs .
Therefore these require different steps to accomplish the goals .
If the workstations are different as structure ( amd , arm , ... , or
FreeBSD , Linux , Windows , ... ) then in a server with a SINGLE structure
such as amd or arm , I can not say what we can do in a useful way for the
development of programs other than use of cross compilation .

Mehmet Erol Sanliturk




On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 2:28 PM Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus <
lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021, Juha Manninen via lazarus wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 10:33 AM Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus <
> > lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> wrote:
> >
> >> You can install KDE, but then installing Lazarus will most likely add
> the
> >> GTK libraries as a dependency.
> >>
> >
> > With KDE I recommend Lazarus with LCL-QT5 bindings.
> > KDE itself is based on QT5.
> > LCL-QT5 works better than LCL-GTK2 now IMO.
>
> I am not commenting on the relative merits/stability of the widgetsets,
> but if OP will install using the system package manager, then the gtk
> version of Lazarus is most likely what will be installed on an ubuntu
> based system.
>
> Keeping that in mind, I'm simply recommending to follow the path of least
> resistance.
>
> Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus]

If you please study TrueNAS , you will see that it is possible to manage a
server with a

"Web-based graphical user interface
 with optional SSL
encryption"

from your computer using a GUI desktop connected to the server in your
local network .

I do not know Ubuntu server in detail but there should be such features .

This means that you do not need to convert your server to a gui desktop
using state but to select a suitable web based management system
and install it ( or them )  to manage your server from your workstation .


Mehmet Erol Sanliturk







On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 11:33 AM Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus <
lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021, Bo Berglund via lazarus wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 02:53:35 +0300, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> It is possible to use  KUbuntu ( KDE with Ubuntu ) . My choice is Fedora
> >> because I find it more easily usable and with respect to their *.rpm
> >> repository quality .
> >
> > Thanks,
> > but my server is *already* installed and running (using Ubuntu Server
> 20.04.3)
> > and I am only wanting to *add* a light-weight desktop environment to be
> able to
> > use some graphics tools for administration work on the server (such as
> Gparted
> > etc).
> > And of course to use Lazarus directly on this server to build some Linux
> tools
> > etc. But it will be accessed using VNC from my Windows box.
> >
> > My question is asked from my worry that Lazarus itself will add
> dependencies on
> > the desktop environment, which do not match the target system
> environments
> >
> > So I am looking for a *desktop environment* to be installed on a server
> > currently *without* a desktop so Lazarus can be used to create apps that
> will
> > work universally on Linux.
>
> It does not matter what environment you install.
>
> The only thing that matters is that the final environment has the necessary
> libraries for the widgetset with which you compile your application.
> Currently that is by default gtk2.
>
> You can install KDE, but then installing Lazarus will most likely add the
> GTK libraries as a dependency.
>
>
> So the easiest is to install something that is GTK based, like MATE as used
> in linux mint.
>
> Michael.
> --
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>
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus]

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021, Juha Manninen via lazarus wrote:


On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 10:33 AM Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus <
lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> wrote:


You can install KDE, but then installing Lazarus will most likely add the
GTK libraries as a dependency.



With KDE I recommend Lazarus with LCL-QT5 bindings.
KDE itself is based on QT5.
LCL-QT5 works better than LCL-GTK2 now IMO.


I am not commenting on the relative merits/stability of the widgetsets, 
but if OP will install using the system package manager, then the gtk 
version of Lazarus is most likely what will be installed on an ubuntu based system.


Keeping that in mind, I'm simply recommending to follow the path of least 
resistance.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus]

Please do not assume that I am suggesting you change your server and waste
your efforts . My aim is to define my approach with its reasons .

If I were you I would prefer to use KDE . I am very satisfied with my use
of KDE  . When I use FreeBSD together with LInux I am using KDE also in
FreeBSD . My difficulty in FreeBSD due to KDE is the following : KDE is
completing missing parts of Linux . In FreeBSD we can say that there are no
such missing parts ( it is a complete operating system ) . Management of
additional parts in KDE is causing mismatches with FreeBSD . There I do not
see any problem . KDE is supplying to me a consistent environment between
different operating systems . Important feature of KDE is its
restartability of the previous session when the computer is shutdown . To
my knowledge , the other desktops are not supplying such a feature .
This view may be wrong because I did not try the other desktops other than
Gnome .

Up to now I did not encounter a "desktop" which is not "graphical" . The
shell in Unix ( variants such as FreeBSD , Linux or others ) are using
"shell"
.

You may search the following phrases in Google one by one :


non graphical desktops
non graphical desktop
linux desktop environments
ubuntu desktop environments
ubuntu server desktop environments
ubuntu server web GUI
ubuntu server management web interface


I think you will find a suitable solution for your works


When you study the following pages and their associated subpages , it will
be evident that there is no any non-gui desktop but
"lightweight gui desktops" :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_environment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command-line_interface

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Desktop_environments



Mehmet Erol Sanliturk


On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 10:35 AM Bo Berglund via lazarus <
lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 02:53:35 +0300, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus
>  wrote:
>
> >It is possible to use  KUbuntu ( KDE with Ubuntu ) . My choice is Fedora
> >because I find it more easily usable and with respect to their *.rpm
> >repository quality .
>
> Thanks,
> but my server is *already* installed and running (using Ubuntu Server
> 20.04.3)
> and I am only wanting to *add* a light-weight desktop environment to be
> able to
> use some graphics tools for administration work on the server (such as
> Gparted
> etc).
> And of course to use Lazarus directly on this server to build some Linux
> tools
> etc. But it will be accessed using VNC from my Windows box.
>
> My question is asked from my worry that Lazarus itself will add
> dependencies on
> the desktop environment, which do not match the target system
> environments
>
> So I am looking for a *desktop environment* to be installed on a server
> currently *without* a desktop so Lazarus can be used to create apps that
> will
> work universally on Linux.
>
>
> --
> Bo Berglund
> Developer in Sweden
>
> --
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Kostas Michalopoulos via lazarus]

On 11/21/21 11:45, Juha Manninen via lazarus wrote:

LCL-QT5 works better than LCL-GTK2 now IMO.


What are the issues on Gtk2 that are fixed in Qt5?

Kostas
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Juha Manninen via lazarus]

On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 10:33 AM Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus <
lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> wrote:

> You can install KDE, but then installing Lazarus will most likely add the
> GTK libraries as a dependency.
>

With KDE I recommend Lazarus with LCL-QT5 bindings.
KDE itself is based on QT5.
LCL-QT5 works better than LCL-GTK2 now IMO.

Regards,
Juha
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus]

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021, Bo Berglund via lazarus wrote:


On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 02:53:35 +0300, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus
 wrote:


It is possible to use  KUbuntu ( KDE with Ubuntu ) . My choice is Fedora
because I find it more easily usable and with respect to their *.rpm
repository quality .


Thanks,
but my server is *already* installed and running (using Ubuntu Server 20.04.3)
and I am only wanting to *add* a light-weight desktop environment to be able to
use some graphics tools for administration work on the server (such as Gparted
etc).
And of course to use Lazarus directly on this server to build some Linux tools
etc. But it will be accessed using VNC from my Windows box.

My question is asked from my worry that Lazarus itself will add dependencies on
the desktop environment, which do not match the target system environments

So I am looking for a *desktop environment* to be installed on a server
currently *without* a desktop so Lazarus can be used to create apps that will
work universally on Linux.


It does not matter what environment you install.

The only thing that matters is that the final environment has the necessary
libraries for the widgetset with which you compile your application.
Currently that is by default gtk2.

You can install KDE, but then installing Lazarus will most likely add the
GTK libraries as a dependency.


So the easiest is to install something that is GTK based, like MATE as used
in linux mint.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Bo Berglund via lazarus]

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 02:53:35 +0300, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus
 wrote:

>It is possible to use  KUbuntu ( KDE with Ubuntu ) . My choice is Fedora
>because I find it more easily usable and with respect to their *.rpm
>repository quality .

Thanks,
but my server is *already* installed and running (using Ubuntu Server 20.04.3)
and I am only wanting to *add* a light-weight desktop environment to be able to
use some graphics tools for administration work on the server (such as Gparted
etc).
And of course to use Lazarus directly on this server to build some Linux tools
etc. But it will be accessed using VNC from my Windows box.

My question is asked from my worry that Lazarus itself will add dependencies on
the desktop environment, which do not match the target system environments

So I am looking for a *desktop environment* to be installed on a server
currently *without* a desktop so Lazarus can be used to create apps that will
work universally on Linux.


-- 
Bo Berglund
Developer in Sweden

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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[Mehmet Erol Sanliturk via lazarus]

I am using Fedora distributions with KDE installed for my daily work and in
a different NFS network using  Fedora with KDE for Lazarus/FPC , Fortran
and C programming . Previously I was using NFS and Samba together for the
SAME NFS server in Fedora and KDE ( because it is easy to manage NFS server
computers with KDE with respect to only "Fedora server" which is using
command line management ) because of developing my programs also in Windows
.  ( When Linux is used only ) file names are consistently handled with
respect to case sensitivity  and file access rights . When Windows is used
on the same NFS server through Samba   , as a result of editing or touching
file names , file names are converted to UPPERcase and their access rights
are broken . In such a combined use , it is forced to use ONLY Windows to
manage file names and access rights  consistently . For that reason I have
abandoned the use of Windows and continued with only Linux . It is possible
to use Windows if you CAN ACCESS to NFS server from Windows ( if Windows is
allowing such an access )  ( for ONLY compilations but never for editing )
( because it is becoming necessary to adjust file names ( you may use
UPPERcase in Linux also but sometimes this may NOT be possible ) and their
access rights to enable to use them from Linux  ) . In short ,  the use of
such a combination ( as Linux and Windows )  is really difficult .


It is possible to use  KUbuntu ( KDE with Ubuntu ) . My choice is Fedora
because I find it more easily usable and with respect to their *.rpm
repository quality .

With my best wishes for all of you ,

Mehmet Erol Sanliturk



On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 2:02 AM Bo Berglund via lazarus <
lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> wrote:

> I have been using Lazarus/FPC for a long time on Windows and also on
> Raspberry
> Pi Linux.
> I also have two laptops on which I run Ubuntu Mate 20.04.3, where I have
> installed Lazarus and FPC.
>
> That all works OK.
>
> But now I would like to put Lazarus/FPC on a dedicated Ubuntu *Server*
> 20.04.3
> so I don't have to run the two laptops to access Lazarus.
>
> And this brings me to my question:
>
> I have understood that Lazarus behaves differently depending on the desktop
> environment on Linux, and at the same time I have  great problems with
> using
> what comes with stock Ubuntu 20...
>
> So I want to get something that is working like Mint and still able to
> create
> applications that will run on stock Ubuntu.
> And the desktop environment I have to install should be light weight too,
> no
> office or video applications etc. Just basic tools for handling the system
> like
> GParted etc.
>
> I will access the desktop over the network using RealVNC on my Windows10
> PC, so
> I have to install TigerVNC into the server after the desktop environment
> is in
> place.
>
> What should I install?
> Will KDE work?
> Or does in not matter for Lazarus?
>
>
> --
> Bo Berglund
> Developer in Sweden
>
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment?

[tony.whyman via lazarus]

I have done this before using xvnc on a ubuntu server. Xvnc is an X server as 
far as the server is concerned. You will need a desktop environment such as 
Mate or KDE on top of it. Lazarus apps work fine. By default, they are linked 
into the gtk2 libs and you will to have them installed as well. If I recall 
correctly, xvnc is run under xinetd. The tricky bit is the login prompt. I 
ended up using xdm. Basic, but does the job. It seems to me  that the 
advance of civilization is nothing but an exercise in the limiting of 
privacy.Isaac Azimov, Foundation's Edge (1982).
 Original message From: Bo Berglund via lazarus 
 Date: 20/11/2021  23:02  (GMT+00:00) To: 
lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org Cc: Bo Berglund  Subject: 
[Lazarus] Lazarus on Linux, which desktop environment? I have been using 
Lazarus/FPC for a long time on Windows and also on RaspberryPi Linux.I also 
have two laptops on which I run Ubuntu Mate 20.04.3, where I haveinstalled 
Lazarus and FPC.That all works OK.But now I would like to put Lazarus/FPC on a 
dedicated Ubuntu *Server* 20.04.3so I don't have to run the two laptops to 
access Lazarus.And this brings me to my question:I have understood that Lazarus 
behaves differently depending on the desktopenvironment on Linux, and at the 
same time I have  great problems with usingwhat comes with stock Ubuntu 20...So 
I want to get something that is working like Mint and still able to 
createapplications that will run on stock Ubuntu.And the desktop environment I 
have to install should be light weight too, nooffice or video applications etc. 
Just basic tools for handling the system likeGParted etc.I will access the 
desktop over the network using RealVNC on my Windows10 PC, soI have to install 
TigerVNC into the server after the desktop environment is inplace.What should I 
install?Will KDE work?Or does in not matter for Lazarus?-- Bo BerglundDeveloper 
in Sweden-- ___lazarus mailing 
listlazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.orghttps://lists.lazarus-ide.org/listinfo/lazarus-- 
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