Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Thu, 27 May 2010, Bee Jay wrote:


Hi all,

I saw fpWeb has potential to be known as a good web framework for pascal
language.  But, I also saw it's too heavily tighted with FPC
infrastructure.  Can we make it more independend so it can also be used by
Delphi?  I think it could make pascal more known to the web developers
crowd out there.


I don't think we will do this. It will require too many changes.

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Marcos Douglas]

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Michael Van Canneyt
 wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 27 May 2010, Bee Jay wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I saw fpWeb has potential to be known as a good web framework for pascal
>> language.  But, I also saw it's too heavily tighted with FPC
>> infrastructure.  Can we make it more independend so it can also be used by
>> Delphi?  I think it could make pascal more known to the web developers
>> crowd out there.
>
> I don't think we will do this. It will require too many changes.

:(


Marcos Douglas

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Leonardo M.]

El jue, 27-05-2010 a las 09:44 -0300, Marcos Douglas escribió:
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Michael Van Canneyt
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 27 May 2010, Bee Jay wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I saw fpWeb has potential to be known as a good web framework for pascal
> >> language.  But, I also saw it's too heavily tighted with FPC
> >> infrastructure.  Can we make it more independend so it can also be used by
> >> Delphi?  I think it could make pascal more known to the web developers
> >> crowd out there.
> >
> > I don't think we will do this. It will require too many changes.
> 
> :(
> 
> 
> Marcos Douglas

Well, is not that sad, the code is in the repositories, anyone can adapt
it to Delphi, it just requires time and brain!.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Marcos Douglas]

2010/5/27 Leonardo M. :
>
> Well, is not that sad, the code is in the repositories, anyone can adapt
> it to Delphi, it just requires time and brain!.

But if the Michael Van Canneyt, developer of fpWeb, said "require too
many changes" I think it is not so easy do that.


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 27 May 2010 13:56, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>
> I don't think we will do this. It will require too many changes.

Plus, Delphi includes it's own web developer tools already. Adding
fpWeb will just be duplication of what they have and paid for.


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Andrew Brunner]

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Bee Jay  wrote:

> Can we make it more independend so it can also be used by Delphi? I think it 
> could make pascal more known to the web developers crowd out there.

Making an open source project's components easy for others to extract
and use on competing platforms seems counter productive to me.  FPC
offers operating system independence... Delphi does not.

Most if not all community efforts should be placed on developing and
securing our own platform.  Not others - especially closed platforms
like Delphi.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Marcos Douglas]

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Andrew Brunner
 wrote:
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Bee Jay  wrote:
>
>> Can we make it more independend so it can also be used by Delphi? I think it 
>> could make pascal more known to the web developers crowd out there.
>
> Making an open source project's components easy for others to extract
> and use on competing platforms seems counter productive to me.  FPC
> offers operating system independence... Delphi does not.
>
> Most if not all community efforts should be placed on developing and
> securing our own platform.  Not others - especially closed platforms
> like Delphi.

I agree but the Bee's thought "it could make pascal more known to the
web developers" it is right too.
if Delphi developers could use fpWeb on Delphi they would approach the
FPC as well.


Marcos Douglas

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Andrew Brunner]

> I agree but the Bee's thought "it could make pascal more known to the
> web developers" it is right too.
> if Delphi developers could use fpWeb on Delphi they would approach the
> FPC as well.

True.  But the real boost will be in projects using FPC/Lazarus.  Word
of mouth testimony from projects is key.  Having one or two successful
(widely adopted) open source projects that require FPC/Lazarus will
most likely clinch it.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Marco van de Voort]

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 07:57:38AM -0500, Andrew Brunner wrote:
> > Can we make it more independend so it can also be used by Delphi? I think 
> > it could make pascal more known to the web developers crowd out there.
> 
> Making an open source project's components easy for others to extract
> and use on competing platforms seems counter productive to me.  FPC
> offers operating system independence... Delphi does not.

Moreover Delphi is a versioned. I don't think picking whatever single
version (say oldest or D7) will make everybody happy.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Marcos Douglas]

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Andrew Brunner
 wrote:
>> I agree but the Bee's thought "it could make pascal more known to the
>> web developers" it is right too.
>> if Delphi developers could use fpWeb on Delphi they would approach the
>> FPC as well.
>
> True.  But the real boost will be in projects using FPC/Lazarus.  Word
> of mouth testimony from projects is key.  Having one or two successful
> (widely adopted) open source projects that require FPC/Lazarus will
> most likely clinch it.

True.

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Marco van de Voort  wrote:
>
> Moreover Delphi is a versioned. I don't think picking whatever single
> version (say oldest or D7) will make everybody happy.

True.

Both are correct.


Marcos Douglas

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Joost van der Sluis]

On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 10:34 -0300, Marcos Douglas wrote:
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Andrew Brunner
>  wrote:
> > On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Bee Jay  wrote:
> >
> >> Can we make it more independend so it can also be used by Delphi? I think 
> >> it could make pascal more known to the web developers crowd out there.
> >
> > Making an open source project's components easy for others to extract
> > and use on competing platforms seems counter productive to me.  FPC
> > offers operating system independence... Delphi does not.
> >
> > Most if not all community efforts should be placed on developing and
> > securing our own platform.  Not others - especially closed platforms
> > like Delphi.
> 
> I agree but the Bee's thought "it could make pascal more known to the
> web developers" it is right too.
> if Delphi developers could use fpWeb on Delphi they would approach the
> FPC as well.

No, they will still use Delphi, because the advantage of fpc (in this
case fpWeb) is gone, because Delphi also supports it.

Fpc is free, you can use it anywhere. I see no reason to support Delphi.

Joost.


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 27 May 2010 15:34, Marcos Douglas wrote:
>
> if Delphi developers could use fpWeb on Delphi they would approach the
> FPC as well.

Why? It it works in Delphi they don't need to switch from Delphi. :-/

FPC already tries its damnedest to be Delphi compatible - maybe it's
time Delphi tries to be FPC compatible. Let them do the work for a
change.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Myles Wakeham]

FPC already tries its damnedest to be Delphi compatible - maybe it's
time Delphi tries to be FPC compatible. Let them do the work for a
change.


A couple of things may have escaped the conversation...

As of the current shipping version of Delphi, its Windows only.  Sure, 
there is something in the works out there for cross-compiler, etc. but 
its not here yet.  Its one thing to have a web enabled application, but 
its another thing to host it.  And with the vast majority of the cheap 
web hosting companies out there running on Linux, FPC is really the only 
option for this.  Delphi developers know this - if they want to deploy 
their web based solution cheaply, FPC is the best way to go for them.


The problem, however, isn't about trying to bring Delphi peeps over to 
FPC because of fpWeb.  They'll get that.  The problem is finding Web 
Hosting companies that will let you deploy CGIs on their servers, 
without forcing you into the VPS product line.  VPS are coming down in 
price, but the success of languages like PHP really comes down to 
willing and available low priced web hosting companies and I don't think 
you are going to be able to offer a solution competitive with PHP that 
can run on a $5 a month host.  If there is an option for this, we need 
to promote that to the Delphi folk (and the existing FPC community), but 
I haven't found one yet that doesn't require a Linux sysadmin level of 
user to work with, or is seriously restricted in bandwidth/disk, etc.


So big thumbs up to FPC for having a Linux based option to deploy solid 
web solutions.  But find a web hosting solution you can deploy it on 
might be a more important challenge to overcome than bringing more 
Delphi people over who will find the exact same business issue when they 
get here.


Myles

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Thu, 27 May 2010, Myles Wakeham wrote:


FPC already tries its damnedest to be Delphi compatible - maybe it's
time Delphi tries to be FPC compatible. Let them do the work for a
change.


A couple of things may have escaped the conversation...

As of the current shipping version of Delphi, its Windows only.  Sure, there 
is something in the works out there for cross-compiler, etc. but its not here 
yet.  Its one thing to have a web enabled application, but its another thing 
to host it.  And with the vast majority of the cheap web hosting companies 
out there running on Linux, FPC is really the only option for this.  Delphi 
developers know this - if they want to deploy their web based solution 
cheaply, FPC is the best way to go for them.


The problem, however, isn't about trying to bring Delphi peeps over to FPC 
because of fpWeb.  They'll get that.  The problem is finding Web Hosting 
companies that will let you deploy CGIs on their servers, without forcing you 
into the VPS product line.  VPS are coming down in price, but the success of 
languages like PHP really comes down to willing and available low priced web 
hosting companies and I don't think you are going to be able to offer a 
solution competitive with PHP that can run on a $5 a month host.  If there is 
an option for this, we need to promote that to the Delphi folk (and the 
existing FPC community), but I haven't found one yet that doesn't require a 
Linux sysadmin level of user to work with, or is seriously restricted in 
bandwidth/disk, etc.


So big thumbs up to FPC for having a Linux based option to deploy solid web 
solutions.  But find a web hosting solution you can deploy it on might be a 
more important challenge to overcome than bringing more Delphi people over 
who will find the exact same business issue when they get here.


The issue is independent of Delphi/Free Pascal.

There is no solution for this using any compiled technology. Not even .NET
code will help you with this, if the hosting company only offers PHP.


Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Marcos Douglas]

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Michael Van Canneyt
 wrote:
>
> The issue is independent of Delphi/Free Pascal.
>
> There is no solution for this using any compiled technology. Not even .NET
> code will help you with this, if the hosting company only offers PHP.

For .NET is more easy found low cost servers... maybe because have a
VM with GC so, more "security" for the server.


Marcos Douglas.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho]

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Marcos Douglas  wrote:
> For .NET is more easy found low cost servers... maybe because have a
> VM with GC so, more "security" for the server.

I don't see how how it could be true. The largest brazilian web
hosting, Locaweb, offers CGI support for it's cheapest plan, which is
29 reais / month for an unlimited storage space:

http://www.locaweb.com.br/produtos/hospedagem/comparacao-planos.html

http://www.locaweb.com.br/produtos/hospedagem.html

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Myles Wakeham  wrote:
>  The problem is finding Web Hosting companies that will let you deploy CGIs 
> on their servers, without forcing
> you into the VPS product line.

Locaweb supports CGI for 16 dollars a month. Considering the cost of
developing a website I really can't see how the extra 11 dollars per
month would be meaningful.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Leonardo M.]

El jue, 27-05-2010 a las 18:57 +0200, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
escribió:
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Marcos Douglas  wrote:
> > For .NET is more easy found low cost servers... maybe because have a
> > VM with GC so, more "security" for the server.
> 
> I don't see how how it could be true. The largest brazilian web
> hosting, Locaweb, offers CGI support for it's cheapest plan, which is
> 29 reais / month for an unlimited storage space:
> 
> http://www.locaweb.com.br/produtos/hospedagem/comparacao-planos.html
> 
> http://www.locaweb.com.br/produtos/hospedagem.html
> 
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Myles Wakeham  wrote:
> >  The problem is finding Web Hosting companies that will let you deploy CGIs 
> > on their servers, without forcing
> > you into the VPS product line.
> 
> Locaweb supports CGI for 16 dollars a month. Considering the cost of
> developing a website I really can't see how the extra 11 dollars per
> month would be meaningful.
> 

The same here in Argentina, HostRentable.com.ar offers an ar$ 5.00/month
plan (1 euro approx) with CGI support.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[silvioprog]

Em 27-05-2010 09:57, Andrew Brunner escreveu:
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Bee Jay  wrote:
> 
>> Can we make it more independend so it can also be used by Delphi? I think it 
>> could make pascal more known to the web developers crowd out there.
> 
> Making an open source project's components easy for others to extract
> and use on competing platforms seems counter productive to me.  FPC
> offers operating system independence... Delphi does not.

+1. I agree with you.


I use FPC-Lazarus on Linux, i.e, Delphi never make me foolishly. :P

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[silvioprog]

Em 27-05-2010 10:34, Marcos Douglas escreveu:
> I agree but the Bee's thought "it could make pascal more known to the
> web developers" it is right too.
> if Delphi developers could use fpWeb on Delphi they would approach the
> FPC as well.

Or not. Who could guarantee that the Embarcadero not copy and close the
source? Unless you want to do a project closed. (a m$-fpweb-non-free :P )

> Marcos Douglas

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[silvioprog]

Em 27-05-2010 10:54, Andrew Brunner escreveu:
>> I agree but the Bee's thought "it could make pascal more known to the
>> web developers" it is right too.
>> if Delphi developers could use fpWeb on Delphi they would approach the
>> FPC as well.
> 
> True.  But the real boost will be in projects using FPC/Lazarus.  Word
> of mouth testimony from projects is key.  Having one or two successful
> (widely adopted) open source projects that require FPC/Lazarus will
> most likely clinch it.

I agree. Is already conquered. See the sum of downloads of Lazarus at
Source Forge. If there is a way, see how many acesses in the SVN of Lazarus.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[silvioprog]

Em 27-05-2010 11:45, Joost van der Sluis escreveu:
> No, they will still use Delphi, because the advantage of fpc (in this
> case fpWeb) is gone, because Delphi also supports it.
> 
> Fpc is free, you can use it anywhere. I see no reason to support Delphi.

+1.

> Joost.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[silvioprog]

Em 27-05-2010 11:55, Graeme Geldenhuys escreveu:
> On 27 May 2010 15:34, Marcos Douglas wrote:
>>
>> if Delphi developers could use fpWeb on Delphi they would approach the
>> FPC as well.
> 
> Why? It it works in Delphi they don't need to switch from Delphi. :-/
> 
> FPC already tries its damnedest to be Delphi compatible - maybe it's
> time Delphi tries to be FPC compatible. Let them do the work for a
> change.

Yes! :)

Imagine fpWeb with code for Delphi. This will only augment the project.

The people of Delphi that will make a way for them, and do not trying to
change the FPC. :P

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[José Mejuto]

Hello Lazarus-List,

Thursday, May 27, 2010, 9:29:03 PM, you wrote:

>> FPC already tries its damnedest to be Delphi compatible - maybe it's
>> time Delphi tries to be FPC compatible. Let them do the work for a
>> change.
s> Yes! :)
s> Imagine fpWeb with code for Delphi. This will only augment the project.
s> The people of Delphi that will make a way for them, and do not trying to
s> change the FPC. :P

The better that you could get is a completly incompatible spin-off in
1,2 months.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Joost van der Sluis]

On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 16:07 -0300, silvioprog wrote:
> Em 27-05-2010 10:34, Marcos Douglas escreveu:
> > I agree but the Bee's thought "it could make pascal more known to the
> > web developers" it is right too.
> > if Delphi developers could use fpWeb on Delphi they would approach the
> > FPC as well.
> 
> Or not. Who could guarantee that the Embarcadero not copy and close the
> source? Unless you want to do a project closed. (a m$-fpweb-non-free :P )


The fpWeb (and the rest od the fcl) license does not allow that.

Joost


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Marco van de Voort]

On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 10:13:17AM +0200, Joost van der Sluis wrote:
> > > I agree but the Bee's thought "it could make pascal more known to the
> > > web developers" it is right too.
> > > if Delphi developers could use fpWeb on Delphi they would approach the
> > > FPC as well.
> > 
> > Or not. Who could guarantee that the Embarcadero not copy and close the
> > source? Unless you want to do a project closed. (a m$-fpweb-non-free :P )
> 
> The fpWeb (and the rest od the fcl) license does not allow that.

It can I think. If it only distributes binaries, that is allowed per copying.fpc

It is just that if they distribute the (modified) sourcecode (e.g. in the
sources installed with Delphi), people can just freely redistribute that
sourcecode. (but that is a I think, not a fact)

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Bee Jay]

On 27 Mei 2010, at 18:56, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

> I don't think we will do this. It will require too many changes.

Yes, I've seen the code. fpWeb has a very tight dependency to other fcl 
packages. Poor Delphi people. ;)

-Bee-


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[waldo kitty]

On 5/28/2010 05:03, Bee Jay wrote:

On 27 Mei 2010, at 18:56, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:


I don't think we will do this. It will require too many changes.


Yes, I've seen the code. fpWeb has a very tight dependency to other fcl 
packages. Poor Delphi people. ;)


serve's'em right... what's that old saying? ya get what ya pay for? i think 
getting a whole lot more for free is much better... wonder what it costs to get 
the full sources to delphi? :lol: :P



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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[silvioprog]

Em 28-05-2010 05:13, Joost van der Sluis escreveu:
> The fpWeb (and the rest od the fcl) license does not allow that.
> 
> Joost

Oof ^^'

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Marco van de Voort]

On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 11:48:45AM -0400, waldo kitty wrote:
> On 5/28/2010 05:03, Bee Jay wrote:
> > On 27 Mei 2010, at 18:56, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> >
> >> I don't think we will do this. It will require too many changes.
> >
> > Yes, I've seen the code. fpWeb has a very tight dependency to other fcl 
> > packages. Poor Delphi people. ;)
> 
> serve's'em right... what's that old saying? ya get what ya pay for? i think 
> getting a whole lot more for free is much better... wonder what it costs to 
> get 
> the full sources to delphi? :lol: :P

Note that one can always port a certain package from time to time. I do this
with many FPC packages that I use at work (lazarus' XML e.g.)

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Dimitri Smits]

Waldo Kitty wrote:
>On 5/28/2010 05:03, Bee Jay wrote:
>> On 27 Mei 2010, at 18:56, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think we will do this. It will require too many changes.
>>
>> Yes, I've seen the code. fpWeb has a very tight dependency to other fcl 
>> packages. Poor Delphi people. ;)
>
> serve's'em right... what's that old saying? ya get what ya pay for? i think 
> getting a whole lot more for free is much better... wonder what it costs to 
> get 
> the full sources to delphi? :lol: :P

where everybody gets the idea that Delphi does not provide web frameworks, I 
don't get. Websnap, other frameworks, standard Apache mod projecttypes 
(templates) for 1.3, 2.0 and 2.2, CGI...

and that was just in D7 already!

God (and Delphi 2010 buyers) know(s) what they have in there nowadays!

On the other hand, why anybody would want to develop new webapps (on new db's) 
in delphi or fpc for that matter seems a bit like a one-tool-in-my-toolbox 
mindset. "If all you have/know is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

There are other languages far more suited for webdevelopment! PHP, Perl, 
Ruby(-on-rails), java, silverlight.net, ...
Especially when the client(s)/user(s) use small webhosting. While you may find 
that they offer php AND CGI, you may not find out the (processor)architecture 
or flavor of linux so that you even CAN compile your CGI, let alone run it 
safely on the hosting provider's machine(s). You only sometimes have (a 
somewhat limited) shell access to their machine anyway. And as for a "product", 
you need to use the greatest common denominator anyway. So that pretty much 
leaves you with php anyway ;-)

And there IS a Delphi4PHP out there (from 
Embarcadero/CodeGears/Borland/Inprise/...). It is a graphical designer like 
Delphi (the IDE, not the object pascal language) that allows you to make RAD 
like a php application with a frontend in javascript, based on the Qooxdoo open 
source framework. In fact, they have reïmplemented a large part of the VCL in 
javascript so that you can transfer your skills in Delphi VCL (the objectpascal 
framework) to there without knowing much javascript.

ps: sorry for the response to multiple mails over the last couple of days
ps2: and since i read digests, this mail will occur out-of-thread, sorry for 
that too :-(

Dimitri Smits

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Bee Jay]

On 30 Mei 2010, at 07:30, Dimitri Smits wrote:

> and that was just in D7 already!

Does it support Linux? Kylix? What about 64 bit servers? :P

> God (and Delphi 2010 buyers) know(s) what they have in there nowadays!

Are they using those tools? No? Why?

> On the other hand, why anybody would want to develop new webapps (on new 
> db's) in delphi or fpc for that matter seems a bit like a 
> one-tool-in-my-toolbox mindset. "If all you have/know is a hammer, every 
> problem looks like a nail."

I don't think so. If I need to migrate desktop apps -many of them with 
thousands if not millions LOC- into web apps, why should I rewrite them in a 
another language from scratch? So I need to retest the whole thing over again 
from the beginning? While I could simply change the desktop form into web page 
and keep the app logic untouched, well... at least most of them. Even if I need 
to write to a new fresh web app, why should I learn new language and framework 
while I could write it in pascal (more effective and efficient thus more 
productive) using existing and my well-tested pascal frameworks and skills? 
Learning a new syntax is easy but finding its tidbits does need times.

> There are other languages far more suited for webdevelopment! PHP, Perl, 
> Ruby(-on-rails), java, silverlight.net, ...

Why are they more suited? Because most of them are scripting and managed/VM 
with poor performance? Why do you think pascal isn't suited for web app 
development?

> Especially when the client(s)/user(s) use small webhosting. While you may 
> find that they offer php AND CGI, you may not find out the 
> (processor)architecture or flavor of linux so that you even CAN compile your 
> CGI, let alone run it safely on the hosting provider's machine(s).

It's not hard to ask the provider about those informations, or even maybe 
they're already mentioned somewhere in the docs.

> You only sometimes have (a somewhat limited) shell access to their machine 
> anyway. And as for a "product", you need to use the greatest common 
> denominator anyway. So that pretty much leaves you with php anyway ;-)

To deploy a CGI app is simply upload it to cgi-bin folder, nothing fancy. CGI 
support is standard feature on common web hosting anyway.

> And there IS a Delphi4PHP out there (from 
> Embarcadero/CodeGears/Borland/Inprise/...). It is a graphical designer like 
> Delphi (the IDE, not the object pascal language) that allows you to make RAD 
> like a php application with a frontend in javascript, based on the Qooxdoo 
> open source framework. In fact, they have reïmplemented a large part of the 
> VCL in javascript so that you can transfer your skills in Delphi VCL (the 
> objectpascal framework) to there without knowing much javascript.

Spend more dollars for an unfinished product? :P I don't mind spending my money 
on a dev tool. But it doesn't count a out-dated buggy ones.

Frontend UI is just a part of web app. Using advance JS UI framework i.e. 
qooxdoo, extjs, isn't hard too. You just need to learn how to use it to build 
your UI, no need to learn all JS programming aspects. In some ways, they're 
just replacement of .dfm/.lfm files.

-Bee-


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 30/05/2010, Dimitri Smits  wrote:
> where everybody gets the idea that Delphi does not provide web frameworks, I 
> don't get. Websnap, other frameworks, standard Apache mod projecttypes 
> (templates) for 1.3, 2.0 and 2.2, CGI...
>
>  and that was just in D7 already!

No Linux support. No FreeBSD support. No 64-bit support!


>  There are other languages far more suited for webdevelopment! PHP, Perl, 
> Ruby(-on-rails), java, silverlight.net, ...

I have to disagree here. Object Pascal seems like a much more suited
language for web development. I can use anything from the RTL, FCL,
OPF frameworks and Object Pascal language features like inheritance,
interfaces etc. - exactly the same as I can in my desktop
counterparts. I can reuse the skills of all my developers without
having to retrain them in Java, PHP (which version) etc.. We have
years and years of Object Pascal code in our toolbox that we can now
reuse for the web apps.

Oh, and lets not forget that a binary CGI apps runs circles around PHP
apps when it comes to speed.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Marco van de Voort]

On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 02:30:19AM +0200, Dimitri Smits wrote:
> >> Yes, I've seen the code. fpWeb has a very tight dependency to other fcl 
> >> packages. Poor Delphi people. ;)
> >
> > serve's'em right... what's that old saying? ya get what ya pay for? i think 
> > getting a whole lot more for free is much better... wonder what it costs to 
> > get 
> > the full sources to delphi? :lol: :P
> 
> where everybody gets the idea that Delphi does not provide web frameworks,
> I don't get.  Websnap, other frameworks, standard Apache mod projecttypes
> (templates) for 1.3, 2.0 and 2.2, CGI...

Usually only in the more expensive editions. I'd have to fork out EUR1000 or
so to update my radstudio pro for that one web-related project once in a
while.

But there is a point that there are 3rd party vendors. I've used them in the
past. They are good, cheaper and more flexible.
 
> On the other hand, why anybody would want to develop new webapps (on new
> db's) in delphi or fpc for that matter seems a bit like a
> one-tool-in-my-toolbox mindset.  "If all you have/know is a hammer, every
> problem looks like a nail."

One could also say the same about PHP.
 
> There are other languages far more suited for webdevelopment! PHP, Perl,
> Ruby(-on-rails), java, silverlight.net, ...  Especially when the
> client(s)/user(s) use small webhosting. 

Java, silverlight.net on small hosting? Less than CGI?

Ruby is even more an white elephant. NEver saw a commercial hoster offer
RoR. (sure if I go to the Ruby site I find a few), but it is not THAT
mainsteram.

>< While you may find that they
> offer php AND CGI, you may not find out the (processor)architecture or
> flavor of linux so that you even CAN compile your CGI, let alone run it
> safely on the hosting provider's machine(s).  

The chance that the hoster's CPU is FPC compatible, the hoster allows CGI is
vastly higher than a small hoster supporting silverlight.net, even fullblow
Java J2EE, Perl or Ruby.

That leaves PHP. Which is good for small stuff, but I wouldn't like having
it write to mission critical databases. PHP is only used for small potatoe
and frontends. (leaving a service to do the real work).

Therefore I think Delphi/FPC is more a competitor for C#/Java application
servers on larger hosting offerings. But if you are doing it already, why
not use it for small stuff too?

> You only sometimes have (a somewhat limited) shell access to their machine
> anyway.  And as for a "product", you need to use the greatest common
> denominator anyway.  So that pretty much leaves you with php anyway ;-)

It leaves you with an account not suitable for any development, only for
hosting existing PHP packages with minor extensions.  But that is a
different discussion (PHP is counted as web development language while often
only existing packages are installed)
 
> And there IS a Delphi4PHP out there (from
> Embarcadero/CodeGears/Borland/Inprise/...).  

So? Totally unrelated product.

> the Qooxdoo open source framework.  In fact, they have re??mplemented a
> large part of the VCL in javascript so that you can transfer your skills
> in Delphi VCL (the objectpascal framework) to there without knowing much
> javascript.

What I have seen from it, if you have a need THAT leve of similarity, you
were never a Delphi programmer to begin with :-)

It's trivial. Even the other ugly ducking in the stable, Oxygene/Prism is
more elegant and compatible. (and that says a lot coming from me)
 

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Sun, 30 May 2010, Dimitri Smits wrote:


Waldo Kitty wrote:

On 5/28/2010 05:03, Bee Jay wrote:

On 27 Mei 2010, at 18:56, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:


I don't think we will do this. It will require too many changes.


Yes, I've seen the code. fpWeb has a very tight dependency to other fcl 
packages. Poor Delphi people. ;)


serve's'em right... what's that old saying? ya get what ya pay for? i think 
getting a whole lot more for free is much better... wonder what it costs to get 
the full sources to delphi? :lol: :P


where everybody gets the idea that Delphi does not provide web frameworks, I 
don't get. Websnap, other frameworks, standard Apache mod projecttypes 
(templates) for 1.3, 2.0 and 2.2, CGI...

and that was just in D7 already!

God (and Delphi 2010 buyers) know(s) what they have in there nowadays!


Intranet, which existed in D5 days already.



On the other hand, why anybody would want to develop new webapps (on new
db's) in delphi or fpc for that matter seems a bit like a
one-tool-in-my-toolbox mindset.  "If all you have/know is a hammer, every
problem looks like a nail."

There are other languages far more suited for webdevelopment! PHP, Perl,
Ruby(-on-rails), java, silverlight.net,


The idea that this has anything to do with the language is a fallacy.

There are no inherent concepts in Ruby, Python PHP that make them
inherently better than pascal, other than that they are 
a) interpreted.

b) are delivered by default with the OS.
and these have nothing to do with the language by itself.

I know (Object) Pascal for 25 years. I solve problems in no time 
using this language, because over 25 years my toolbox is well

stacked, and I continuously improve mysel.

The web is just another a problem I also wish to tackle using this toolbox.

If I had to buy a new toolbox for every new problem, I would have been
bancrupt a long time ago.

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Jürgen Hestermann]

I know (Object) Pascal for 25 years. I solve problems in no time using 
this language, because over 25 years my toolbox is well

stacked, and I continuously improve mysel.


Yes. Why start from scratch over and over again with new languages if it's possible to use a well known language? 


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Bee Jay]

On 30 Mei 2010, at 18:37, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

> If I had to buy a new toolbox for every new problem, I would have been
> bancrupt a long time ago.

Most non-developers people usually think that something that is sooo popular, 
then it must be the best. Which is another fallacy, I suppose. Unfortunately, 
some developers think that way as well. ;)

-Bee-


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[waldo kitty]

On 5/30/2010 00:04, Bee Jay wrote:

On 30 Mei 2010, at 07:30, Dimitri Smits wrote:

On the other hand, why anybody would want to develop new webapps (on new db's) in delphi 
or fpc for that matter seems a bit like a one-tool-in-my-toolbox mindset. "If all 
you have/know is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."


I don't think so. If I need to migrate desktop apps -many of them with 
thousands if not millions LOC- into web apps, why should I rewrite them in a 
another language from scratch? So I need to retest the whole thing over again 
from the beginning? While I could simply change the desktop form into web page 
and keep the app logic untouched, well... at least most of them. Even if I need 
to write to a new fresh web app, why should I learn new language and framework 
while I could write it in pascal (more effective and efficient thus more 
productive) using existing and my well-tested pascal frameworks and skills? 
Learning a new syntax is easy but finding its tidbits does need times.


this is especially important when it comes to things like properly filtering 
user input, too... in many (most? all?) cases, this has already been done and 
properly handled in a binary app... in fact, properly handling user input been 
one of the biggest problems with many apps, period... surely no one really names 
their child '); DROP TABLE Master; ;)



There are other languages far more suited for webdevelopment! PHP, Perl, 
Ruby(-on-rails), java, silverlight.net, ...


Why are they more suited? Because most of them are scripting and managed/VM 
with poor performance? Why do you think pascal isn't suited for web app 
development?


i don't know of any reason why it isn't suited... it isn't any different, 
really, than those other languages... it has surely been vetted a lot more and 
over a longer time than they ;)



Especially when the client(s)/user(s) use small webhosting. While you may find 
that they offer php AND CGI, you may not find out the (processor)architecture 
or flavor of linux so that you even CAN compile your CGI, let alone run it 
safely on the hosting provider's machine(s).


It's not hard to ask the provider about those informations, or even maybe 
they're already mentioned somewhere in the docs.


not to mention how easy it is to go to another provider or even just host it 
yourself ;) :P


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Myles Wakeham]

Marco wrote:

>That leaves PHP. Which is good for small stuff, but I wouldn't like having
it write to mission critical databases. PHP is only used for small potatoe
and frontends. (leaving a service to do the real work).


Huh?  Ever heard of Facebook?  Or SugarCRM?  They are PHP apps.  And PHP 
is not a front-end solution.  It runs on the server, not the client.  I 
think you are confusing it with Javascript/HTML/AJAX, etc. all of which 
work with any back-end code (PHP, Perl, ASP, or FPC CGIs).


I have PHP applications in production with large user communities (ie. > 
1,000) and they perform exceptionally well.  I do also have FPC CGI's 
running for doing intensive file handling alongside of them and yes, it 
does outperform for those applications.  But by the time I lose all my 
PHP extensions, frameworks, Smarty, etc. it would take me 3-4x the 
development effort to construct a web solution in FPC than in PHP.


There's a place for both technologies and they can work exceptionally 
well together, but please don't underestimate what PHP can (and has 
done) in web development circles.


Myles
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Tech Solutions USA, Inc.
www.techsolusa.com
Phone +1-480-451-7440


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[waldo kitty]

On 5/30/2010 06:33, Marco van de Voort wrote:

On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 02:30:19AM +0200, Dimitri Smits wrote:
Java, silverlight.net on small hosting? Less than CGI?

Ruby is even more an white elephant. NEver saw a commercial hoster offer
RoR. (sure if I go to the Ruby site I find a few), but it is not THAT
mainsteram.


plus it has its own problems and foibles... the first i ran headlong into was 
which server to use... i use apache but RoR wants to use its own server... it 
was ok while i dabbled with it during developing a few minor things to see how 
it would go but i was unable to then move those apps to my apache server and get 
them operational in a "deployed" environment...


the task i was looking at should easily be handled with a RAD environment... 
heck, it was only hooking into a database with several tables linked by a couple 
of "ID codes" (what i know of as a relational database) and a minor bit of math 
on a few of the numbers... the worst part would be the handling of transactions 
and inventory moving in and out... i couldn't even get started on it in RoR... 
since i have a pascal background, a friend pointed me at Lazarus and FPC... i 
still haven't gotten that app doshed up due to the various problems i ran into 
with connecting to a database, trying to use the tabbed notebook (i like the 
look and feel of it), and other sundry problems that a console only coder runs 
into when attempting to move to a GUI environment... groking the OOP stuff isn't 
that bad for me since i was exposed to it when it first appeared back in TP/BP 6 
but it is still "new" to me since i stayed with purely procedural coding all 
these years...


we won't even touch on whether or not to do a binary interface or a web 
interface or both... i definitely don't want to be junking up the works with a 
bunch of java, javascript, flash, sliverlight, or any of that other stuff that 
enlarges the surface area that may be attacked and compromised... as a security 
minded admin and coding geek, that's definitely something that i keep in mind 
all the time... indeed, it is why i refuse to run any of the popular CMS' for 
example... there's just too much that can and does go wrong...


additionally, i won't even mention that i've only been able to update to a newer 
version of Laz/FPC twice since i first took a look at it... why? because there's 
only been two releases since then... yes, i know why and i don't have a problem 
with it... i'm just thankful that there's something available besides delphi and 
that this something is cross-platform capable because that is very important... 
but i also eagerly await the next release with all these bug fixes and new 
features that i read about daily in this list...



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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Lee Jenkins]

Dimitri Smits wrote:

Waldo Kitty wrote:

On 5/28/2010 05:03, Bee Jay wrote:

On 27 Mei 2010, at 18:56, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:


I don't think we will do this. It will require too many changes.

Yes, I've seen the code. fpWeb has a very tight dependency to other fcl
packages. Poor Delphi people. ;)

serve's'em right... what's that old saying? ya get what ya pay for? i think
 getting a whole lot more for free is much better... wonder what it costs
to get the full sources to delphi? :lol: :P


where everybody gets the idea that Delphi does not provide web frameworks, I
don't get. Websnap, other frameworks, standard Apache mod projecttypes
(templates) for 1.3, 2.0 and 2.2, CGI...

and that was just in D7 already!

God (and Delphi 2010 buyers) know(s) what they have in there nowadays!

On the other hand, why anybody would want to develop new webapps (on new
db's) in delphi or fpc for that matter seems a bit like a
one-tool-in-my-toolbox mindset. "If all you have/know is a hammer, every
problem looks like a nail."



When your language is a kick ass swiss army knife on steroids for everything 
else under the sun, its easy to look first to what you already know and have at 
hand for the solution.



There are other languages far more suited for webdevelopment! PHP, Perl,
Ruby(-on-rails), java, silverlight.net, ... Especially when the
client(s)/user(s) use small webhosting. While you may find that they offer
php AND CGI, you may not find out the (processor)architecture or flavor of
linux so that you even CAN compile your CGI, let alone run it safely on the
hosting provider's machine(s). You only sometimes have (a somewhat limited)
shell access to their machine anyway. And as for a "product", you need to use
the greatest common denominator anyway. So that pretty much leaves you with
php anyway ;-)



Is it more convenient with interpreted/jited languages to deploy your 
application?  Sure.  Would I like FPC apps to be that easy to deploy?  Sure. 
Does it make a difference?  Depends on the application I guess.  If you're 
writing a shopping cart to sell to end users, I'd say yes.  If you're writing an 
application in house or substantive enough to deserve a VPS account starting at 
$20.00 or a dedicated rack box for what, $100?  I'd wager that a good portion of 
end user's web applications will stay on a inexpensive VPS of varying 
prices/horsepower as use goes up well before a dedicated rack server is 
required.  If/when a rack server becomes necessary, I'd wager it will be a most 
welcome expense for you/your customer.  Please remember to donate to worthy 
causes :-)


For micro customers:
http://www.webkeepers.com/vps/vps_compare.html

LinNode.  Some gave me this link here or delphi groups:
http://www.linode.com/faq.cfm

Dedicated:
http://www.hostingsource.com/advanced_server_plans.php

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Lee

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 30 May 2010 18:09, Myles Wakeham wrote:
> together, but please don't underestimate what PHP can (and has done) in web
> development circles.

In the same breath: Don't underestimate what FPC can (and has done) in
web development circles.  :)


Just because we don't brag (make noise or whatever you want to call
it) about FPC as much as PHP developers, doesn't mean FPC CGI apps
don't exist and are not deployed in large scale.


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  - Graeme -


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Marco van de Voort]

On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 09:09:31AM -0700, Myles Wakeham wrote:
> Marco wrote:
> 
>  >That leaves PHP. Which is good for small stuff, but I wouldn't like having
> it write to mission critical databases. PHP is only used for small potatoe
> and frontends. (leaving a service to do the real work).
> 
> Huh?  Ever heard of Facebook?  Or SugarCRM?  They are PHP apps. 

But do they write to mission critical databases? Where a wrong write will
get you sued?

> And PHP is not a front-end solution.  It runs on the server, not the
> client.  I think you are confusing it with Javascript/HTML/AJAX, etc.  all
> of which work with any back-end code (PHP, Perl, ASP, or FPC CGIs).

No I don't. Frontend of the application server solution. Frontend is
typically the customer facing part. It depends on what you take as customer,
the person or the browser what exactly makes up the frontend.
 
> does outperform for those applications.  But by the time I lose all my 
> PHP extensions, frameworks, Smarty, etc. it would take me 3-4x the 
> development effort to construct a web solution in FPC than in PHP.

Fine. But you don't answer the question: do they handle (write) mission critical
information directly to the database?
 

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Bee Jay]

On 30 Mei 2010, at 23:09, Myles Wakeham wrote:

> Huh?  Ever heard of Facebook?  Or SugarCRM?  They are PHP apps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HipHop_for_PHP

Even facebook developers know that native app will outperform scripting on any 
cases. They ended up rewriting PHP RTL, extension, etc. They wouldn't need to 
invent HipHop if they created facebook using native solution since the 
beginning. ;)

-Bee-


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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Mon, 31 May 2010, Bee Jay wrote:


On 30 Mei 2010, at 23:09, Myles Wakeham wrote:


Huh?  Ever heard of Facebook?  Or SugarCRM?  They are PHP apps.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HipHop_for_PHP

Even facebook developers know that native app will outperform scripting on any 
cases. They ended up rewriting PHP RTL, extension, etc. They wouldn't need to 
invent HipHop if they created facebook using native solution since the 
beginning. ;)


Hah ! :-)

Bee, you didn't just make my day, you made my week. Thanks a lot !! :-)

Work on fcl-web will definitely continue with double effort :-)

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] fpweb for delphi?

[Bee Jay]

On 31 Mei 2010, at 15:32, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

> Hah ! :-)

LOL :D You had never heard of it, haven't you? :P

> Bee, you didn't just make my day, you made my week. Thanks a lot !! :-)

You're welcome.

> Work on fcl-web will definitely continue with double effort :-)

Glad to hear that. Let's make fpWeb a famous web development framework! ;)

Well... since the first day I knew web programming, I never believe scripting 
web app would perform equally, yet better, than native web app. It seems that 
I'm still correct. :) Pity facebook developers, they learned the lesson in a 
very hard way.

I never underestimate PHP role in web development though. But as Marco said, 
it's only good for small-to-medium web apps that doing nothing critical. 
Unless, you want to spend more money to upgrade your server machine. As 
Facebook had done before they started to invent HipHop. ;)

-Bee-


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