Re: [lazarus] FPC/Lazarus Foundation would need people
L505 wrote: In all of this talk about the need for a foundation it has been said how we could have these people doing this job instead of the developers. We could have others doing other jobs, etc. etc. etc. Well as the statements point out this needs people. It needs people that are involved and interested in FPC/Lazarus. That is where the problem starts. It's not just people doing work though - it is also communicating about the attitudes of the current people in charge too. The current attitude consensus is that it's just a hobby. On every single successful project, there is always lots of discussion and lots of code. Not just lots of code alone. Lots of code alone are the one man developer projects that become a selfish endeavor of one attitude from one developer (if two developers are on the project, it leads to two different code bases because of disagreement and no discussion on plans). Some of our attitudes our not in line. Some of us will and already are using FPC/Pascal for real work.. and pleasure too. But not just pleasure and not just hobby. What scares me most is the hobby attitude because I know FPC is much more than just hobby quality. It's not just as simple as gathering an army of programmers together and doing lots and lots of work. I've had conflicts of attitude before and it doesn't matter if you are both very hard workers, if your attitude isn't the same then you can code all you want but you might disagree on the goals of the project and start your own project. This is why OpenSource/Mozilla/OSI licenses spouted off from GNU - because people didn't agree on the same ideas. RMS is a good Lisp programmer and so is ESR, and they can pump out lots and lots of code - but that doesn't mean they will work good together. With FPC camp right now, we have two crowds or camps: 1. Those who want FPC to be successful for serious use, but hobby use is nice 2. Those who only want FPC to be hobby, serious - nahh - serious ruins the fun. I am part of camp 1 because I currently use FPC for serious use. I also use it for hobby too. Look, if we only use FPC for hobby and then we go off and use a real tool like MS VC or GCC for real work, how does that make FPC look? I feel that less of a hobby attitude is needed, otherwise people will get a feeling about this open source project they just work in their spare time, it's not a serious project - only a hobby for fun. There is something you got wrong: we consider FPC as a serious project but we do it for fun. Most of doing software development as daily job for years and at least for FPC I would say: the methods we use to develop FPC are more sophisticated than a lot of payed programmers use. The reason is simple: we want high software quality but we don't have any time pressure. My objections against participating in any kind of foundation are: I think it has much more advantages for FPC if I spent my time in coding than in administrative work. Just one example: Peter and me did the win64 port of FPC (which resulted also in a binary writer for x86-64-linux and a win32 linker) within less than 4 weeks which is equally to one week of full time job. Even MS couldn't hire people doing this because there is nobody except the current compiler developers having the knowledge to do so. Other people would need probably months because they don't know the compiler and rtl source code well enough. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] FPC/Lazarus Foundation would need people
On 4/30/06, Florian Klaempfl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most of doing software development as daily job for years I don't know if this is unpolite to ask, but. Just out of curiosity, I'm not trying to prove anything. Do you guys (main developers from Free Pascal / Lazarus that are software developers as daily job) use Free Pascal on your jobs? thanks, -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] FPC/Lazarus Foundation would need people
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote: On 4/30/06, Florian Klaempfl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most of doing software development as daily job for years I don't know if this is unpolite to ask, but. Just out of curiosity, I'm not trying to prove anything. Do you guys (main developers from Free Pascal / Lazarus that are software developers as daily job) use Free Pascal on your jobs? thanks, -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives I am not a developer of these software but out of curiousity, I am not try to prove anything why are you asking it then? What if they say yes, and what if they say no? thanks, Márton Papp _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] FPC/Lazarus Foundation would need people
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote: On 4/30/06, Florian Klaempfl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most of doing software development as daily job for years I don't know if this is unpolite to ask, but. Just out of curiosity, I'm not trying to prove anything. Do you guys (main developers from Free Pascal / Lazarus that are software developers as daily job) use Free Pascal on your jobs? For side projects, yes. Now that Lazarus has reached a certain maturity, I am planning to develop main projects with it too. Michael. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] FPC/Lazarus Foundation would need people
I don't know if this is unpolite to ask, but. Just out of curiosity, I'm not trying to prove anything. Do you guys (main developers from Free Pascal / Lazarus that are software developers as daily job) use Free Pascal on your jobs? Not now, but have done so in the past. Mostly side-projects though. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
[lazarus] FPC/Lazarus Foundation would need people
In all of this talk about the need for a foundation it has been said how we could have these people doing this job instead of the developers. We could have others doing other jobs, etc. etc. etc. Well as the statements point out this needs people. It needs people that are involved and interested in FPC/Lazarus. That is where the problem starts. I don't think the people pushing the foundation have a clear grasp of just how small a community we really are. There are not alot of people interested in FPC/Lazarus. Without those people being interested there is no one to take over these foundation jobs or positions. Just as a comparison I have looked up some details on other foundations mentioned in these emails. Apache Foundation: Currently there are 161 Active Developers in charge of and working on approved Apache projects. OpenOffice: Currently they have 40 Active Developers in charge of and working on approved OO projects. They also have a similar numbers working on incubator and native-lang projects. Totals over 100 Lazarus: The Web Site has 4,337 registered users. Wow sounds like alot. Sounds like a nice community. But wait . The Lazarus Developers mailing list has a grand total of 12 developers. Of those 12 I think 4 and not even interested and some others have done stuff in the past but aren't able to assist at this time. So out of that list we have about 5-6 developers working on Lazarus. The Lazarus mailing list has a grand total of 470 people interested enough to keep up on what is happening with the project. What it boils down to is where are these Foundation members and Foundation administrators, etc. etc. going to come from? So who would do it? The core developers would be the only ones to do it. So what would be the benefit to them to do it? There wouldn't be any. This is where our thought process is coming from on this matter. -- Programming my first best destiny! Michael A. Hess Miracle Concepts, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.miraclec.com Phone: 570-388-2211 Fax: 570-388-6101 _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] FPC/Lazarus Foundation would need people
I think in general this was a very productive talk, even if no foundation comes from this. It was very positive in the sense of getting to know better the community and different points of view. I also think it made clear that what we need is more people helping (not only on development but also on other things), and not necessarely a legal entity. -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] FPC/Lazarus Foundation would need people
In all of this talk about the need for a foundation it has been said how we could have these people doing this job instead of the developers. We could have others doing other jobs, etc. etc. etc. Well as the statements point out this needs people. It needs people that are involved and interested in FPC/Lazarus. That is where the problem starts. It's not just people doing work though - it is also communicating about the attitudes of the current people in charge too. The current attitude consensus is that it's just a hobby. On every single successful project, there is always lots of discussion and lots of code. Not just lots of code alone. Lots of code alone are the one man developer projects that become a selfish endeavor of one attitude from one developer (if two developers are on the project, it leads to two different code bases because of disagreement and no discussion on plans). Some of our attitudes our not in line. Some of us will and already are using FPC/Pascal for real work.. and pleasure too. But not just pleasure and not just hobby. What scares me most is the hobby attitude because I know FPC is much more than just hobby quality. It's not just as simple as gathering an army of programmers together and doing lots and lots of work. I've had conflicts of attitude before and it doesn't matter if you are both very hard workers, if your attitude isn't the same then you can code all you want but you might disagree on the goals of the project and start your own project. This is why OpenSource/Mozilla/OSI licenses spouted off from GNU - because people didn't agree on the same ideas. RMS is a good Lisp programmer and so is ESR, and they can pump out lots and lots of code - but that doesn't mean they will work good together. With FPC camp right now, we have two crowds or camps: 1. Those who want FPC to be successful for serious use, but hobby use is nice 2. Those who only want FPC to be hobby, serious - nahh - serious ruins the fun. I am part of camp 1 because I currently use FPC for serious use. I also use it for hobby too. Look, if we only use FPC for hobby and then we go off and use a real tool like MS VC or GCC for real work, how does that make FPC look? I feel that less of a hobby attitude is needed, otherwise people will get a feeling about this open source project they just work in their spare time, it's not a serious project - only a hobby for fun. But, this is all too common in many open source projects... On the other hand if it becomes too serious of a Business compiler it may end up being a corporate buzzword society. Have to balance it out - don't go too far as to making FPC a buzzword Borland style group - but please, at least admit that FPC is more than hobby quality. Some of you might be thinking will FPC split into two projects such as FreeBSD/NetBSD/EtcBSD split up? This would only happen, if some core developers had different views - right now I think ALL (Every Single One) of the core developers is part of camp 2, not camp 1. Yes, Camp 2 is doing more of the core compiler work - so it means they have more control. It could also be though that the core developers are just humble folks, and they do intend for these projects to be serious quality - and when they say hobby, they are just being really humble. I think this is true, because I know FPC is more than just hobby quality - and the documentation, and everything else about the project. As for Lazarus, it is more on the hobby quality side - being honest - since it is a huge project which isn't as near complete as FPC is. Not that this couldn't or wouldn't change. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] FPC/Lazarus Foundation would need people
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 18:45:07 -0600, L505 wrote It's not just people doing work though - it is also communicating about the attitudes of the current people in charge too. People in charge? There aren't people in charge. There are the people who own the code and have written the code. Wheither you use FPC/Lazarus as a user or not FPC/Lazarus is owned by the people who have written it. I assume that makes them 'in charge' as you put it but that would be the same if it was closed source and they just sold you a binary. They didn't. They decided to open it to the world to enjoy and help. On every single successful project, there is always lots of discussion and lots of code. Not just lots of code alone. Lots of code alone are the one man developer projects that become a selfish endeavor of one attitude from one developer (if two developers are on the project, it leads to two different code bases because of disagreement and no discussion on plans). Actually there is lots of discussion in both camps. They both have private developers lists where lots of design takes place. They decide direction and implementation on these lists. The FPC team being located in Europe also meet occasionally to discuss issues. FPC is at this point going on 14 years old. This isn't just some unorganized effort that has been going on. It has lasted and grown for that length of time. Lazarus is around 6 years old. It has fewer developers but still an organized effort. Some of our attitudes our not in line. Some of us will and already are using FPC/Pascal for real work.. and pleasure too. This confused me. What is 'real work'. You mean only work for a business or enterprise is real work? But not just pleasure and not just hobby. What scares me most is the hobby attitude because I know FPC is much more than just hobby quality. Well for one I don't recall anyone ever stating that FPC/Lazarus was a hobby. I do recall it being stated that it was worked on for fun. That isn't the same thing. Look, if we only use FPC for hobby and then we go off and use a real tool like MS VC or GCC for real work, how does that make FPC look? I have never been able to understand your attitude until this email. The above line indicates your attitude. You state, ...then we go off and use a real tool like MS VC From this it indicates that you do not think of FPC or Lazarus as a real tool. Now the question is, why? Is it because it doesn't have some business, foundation, or organization behind it. Maybe you don't think a tool is real unless it has some stricked organization that controls everything. -- Programming my first best destiny! Michael A. Hess Miracle Concepts, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.miraclec.com Phone: 570-388-2211 Fax: 570-388-6101 _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
