Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
On 3/2/06, Bill Peeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 08:33:57 -0700 Jesse Stay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew McNabb wrote: Anyway, I guess my point is that the problem is unfixable and bug reports are useless. It sounds really pessimistic, but after almost a year of optimism, I think it's only realistic. You do have to agree however that the expertise at the HQ level is much better now than it was 5 years ago. I don't think it's the Church's fault either. The Church I know at times has a hard time finding qualified people that are willing to leave their budding careers to come to a place that probably pays less, and at times doesn't look as good on a resume as say Google or Yahoo (although I can think of some reasons to It's the ties. Without exception, the best people I personally know won't work where they have to wear ties day-in and day-out. Good point. Tie's are irritating. ~ Nathan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 08:33:57 -0700 Jesse Stay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew McNabb wrote: Anyway, I guess my point is that the problem is unfixable and bug reports are useless. It sounds really pessimistic, but after almost a year of optimism, I think it's only realistic. You do have to agree however that the expertise at the HQ level is much better now than it was 5 years ago. I don't think it's the Church's fault either. The Church I know at times has a hard time finding qualified people that are willing to leave their budding careers to come to a place that probably pays less, and at times doesn't look as good on a resume as say Google or Yahoo (although I can think of some reasons to It's the ties. Without exception, the best people I personally know won't work where they have to wear ties day-in and day-out. bill ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
Nathan wrote: Just out of curiosity, is there a concious reason why the church restricts access to the program and it's source, or is that just a historical byproduct? I mean, it's obvious that the church can't give access to the data these programs use since the data iteself is confidential, but what does it have to gain by restricting access to the program itself? It seems like the church would naturally be a big open-source proponent, as it's not selling its software (as far as I know) anyway. I think the Church needs to be absolutely sure the membership data is used the way it was intended to be used. If the source were accessible, well-meaning but misguided clerks could more easily make mistakes and leak personal information about members. If the leak were discovered, people might stop trusting the Church with their personal information, and might even sue the Church, reducing the Church's ability to fulfill its mission to perfect the saints. Thus any software that has access to private membership information is probably not a good candidate to release as open source software. However, the Church currently seems optimistic about open source software for most other work. Unfortunately, lots of Church software is already tied to proprietary agreements. In practice, building software to be released as open source software requires a committment to open source right from the start of the project. Shane ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
1. If there is something that you think or know is broken report it, but give a bit more detail describing how you think the problem could be solved. Eg. If you know some functionality is broken write up test script that can be followed to reproduce the problem. 3. If you have programming experience stubbing out a runnable prototype could prove to be helpful. If you don't have programming experience just draw/sketch or describe in detail what you want changed/added. After all a picture says more than a thousand words. I've never used MLS. Is MLS open-source? ~ Nathan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
RE: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
Hi Nathan, MLS is not open-source it is the administrative program that is used in several church callings for administrative purposes. Most generally stake/ward clerks, but also other presidencies. Kind regards, Manfred Riem -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nathan Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 5:24 PM To: LDS Open Source Software Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions 1. If there is something that you think or know is broken report it, but give a bit more detail describing how you think the problem could be solved. Eg. If you know some functionality is broken write up test script that can be followed to reproduce the problem. 3. If you have programming experience stubbing out a runnable prototype could prove to be helpful. If you don't have programming experience just draw/sketch or describe in detail what you want changed/added. After all a picture says more than a thousand words. I've never used MLS. Is MLS open-source? ~ Nathan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
Does it have an open API then? Or a plugin framework? I'm just wondering how people are supposed to script test cases or prototype features. Can you download a copy of it without being in a presidency? ~ Nathan On 1/14/06, Manfred Riem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Nathan, MLS is not open-source it is the administrative program that is used in several church callings for administrative purposes. Most generally stake/ward clerks, but also other presidencies. Kind regards, Manfred Riem -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nathan Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 5:24 PM To: LDS Open Source Software Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions 1. If there is something that you think or know is broken report it, but give a bit more detail describing how you think the problem could be solved. Eg. If you know some functionality is broken write up test script that can be followed to reproduce the problem. 3. If you have programming experience stubbing out a runnable prototype could prove to be helpful. If you don't have programming experience just draw/sketch or describe in detail what you want changed/added. After all a picture says more than a thousand words. I've never used MLS. Is MLS open-source? ~ Nathan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
RE: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
Hi Nathan, As far as I know there is no open API. No plugin framework either. I would love to see it and I am working on a prototype application and have for some time, but the work is slow since I am doing it in my spare time. For now I have a prototype that uses the underlying NetBeans Platform (why write one when one exists ;). I am in the process of adding PAF support to it. As far as I know you cannot download MLS. And I doubt in its current form you ever will, but who knows. You are called by the Lord to serve in a specific calling that will let you use it, if you are not in such a calling you do not have access to it. When I said writing a test script I assumed that you are in a calling that requires access to it. And writing a GUI test script could be done completely on paper. Prototyping features could be done on paper as well. Sketches and so forth. Or if you want to take it a bit further you can done some UML models ;) Kind regards, Manfred Riem [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.manorrock.org/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nathan Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:19 PM To: LDS Open Source Software Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions Does it have an open API then? Or a plugin framework? I'm just wondering how people are supposed to script test cases or prototype features. Can you download a copy of it without being in a presidency? ~ Nathan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
Ah, well that clears things up. Sounds like the only way that app will actually get worked on (in it's current closed-source, closed-access form) is if the church pours some development resources into it. Just out of curiosity, is there a concious reason why the church restricts access to the program and it's source, or is that just a historical byproduct? I mean, it's obvious that the church can't give access to the data these programs use since the data iteself is confidential, but what does it have to gain by restricting access to the program itself? It seems like the church would naturally be a big open-source proponent, as it's not selling its software (as far as I know) anyway. ~ Nathan On 1/14/06, Manfred Riem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Nathan, As far as I know there is no open API. No plugin framework either. I would love to see it and I am working on a prototype application and have for some time, but the work is slow since I am doing it in my spare time. For now I have a prototype that uses the underlying NetBeans Platform (why write one when one exists ;). I am in the process of adding PAF support to it. As far as I know you cannot download MLS. And I doubt in its current form you ever will, but who knows. You are called by the Lord to serve in a specific calling that will let you use it, if you are not in such a calling you do not have access to it. When I said writing a test script I assumed that you are in a calling that requires access to it. And writing a GUI test script could be done completely on paper. Prototyping features could be done on paper as well. Sketches and so forth. Or if you want to take it a bit further you can done some UML models ;) Kind regards, Manfred Riem [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.manorrock.org/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nathan Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:19 PM To: LDS Open Source Software Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions Does it have an open API then? Or a plugin framework? I'm just wondering how people are supposed to script test cases or prototype features. Can you download a copy of it without being in a presidency? ~ Nathan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
RE: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
Hi Nathan, I can't speak for the Church, so you'll have to ask the proper person within the Church about it. I can speculate, but I rather not because I don't have access to all information. The only things I know are what you stated yourself already ;) Would I like to see some open source development? You bet! Would I support the church in it? Most certainly. Would it be easy to do for the church? I don't know. Would it be worth it? For me most definitely! For the church? Again I would have to say I don't know. It is easy to say yes, but as with everything it takes resources and I cannot make any determination on what the Church will do unless they tell us. I know that I would like to know how many fellow LDS developers are out there and what we could do to help the Church in any way possible. Wouldn't you? ;) Kind regards, Manfred Riem [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.manorrock.org/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nathan Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:39 PM To: LDS Open Source Software Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions Ah, well that clears things up. Sounds like the only way that app will actually get worked on (in it's current closed-source, closed-access form) is if the church pours some development resources into it. Just out of curiosity, is there a concious reason why the church restricts access to the program and it's source, or is that just a historical byproduct? I mean, it's obvious that the church can't give access to the data these programs use since the data iteself is confidential, but what does it have to gain by restricting access to the program itself? It seems like the church would naturally be a big open-source proponent, as it's not selling its software (as far as I know) anyway. ~ Nathan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
I know that I would like to know how many fellow LDS developers are out there and what we could do to help the Church in any way possible. Wouldn't you? ;) Yep! ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
Being a web developer myself, I get antsy when I know I could improve on a program I'm using. Sometimes I wish I could jump right in and fix the problems. But quick isnot always best. I'm new to this list so I don't know if this job posting has been shown on here, but check it out... http://ldschurch.recruitsoft.com/servlets/CareerSection?art_ip_action=FlowDispatcherflowTypeNo=13pageSeq=2reqNo=14000art_servlet_language=encsNo=2 Pretty cool, huh? Stuff like this takes time but it will be so worth it in the end. Mary On 1/14/06, Nathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know that I would like to know how many fellow LDS developers are out there and what we could do to help the Church in any way possible. Wouldn't you? ;)Yep!___Ldsoss mailing listLdsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
On 1/14/06, Mary Shaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Being a web developer myself, I get antsy when I know I could improve on a program I'm using. Sometimes I wish I could jump right in and fix the problems. But quick is not always best. Open source and quick are orthogonal. I agree that, in general, good coding practices should always be followed. I'm new to this list so I don't know if this job posting has been shown on here, but check it out... http://ldschurch.recruitsoft.com/servlets/CareerSection?art_ip_action=FlowDispatcherflowTypeNo=13pageSeq=2reqNo=14000art_servlet_language=encsNo=2 Pretty cool, huh? Stuff like this takes time but it will be so worth it in the end. Mary I tried the link above and got the following error in Firefox 1.5 on OS X. What is the link supposed to be, a job posting? -- A system error has occurred. Please do as follows to correct the problem: 1- Verify the version of your Internet browser. The minimum requirements are Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.01 SP1, Netscape Navigator 4.73, or AOL 6. Free browser upgrades are available at www.microsoft.com, www.netscape.com, and www.aol.com. 2- Close all your Internet browsers. 3- Open your Internet browser and apply again on the job. Avoid using Back and Forward buttons; use the Continue button instead. 4- If the problem persists, please visit http://www.taleo.com/support. Thank you. Error Reference Number: ldschurch (20060114111213219) ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Re: MLS Bugs and Discussions
Ed,
Those are excellent links that I think would be useful for many in
this group. Would you mind posting those to the wiki? I think that
will encourage more of the MLS/clerk questions to go to better places.
(I don't mind them here - there are many qualified individuals and it
has been interesting to hear the shared knowledge. It seems though
that those links might provide even more useful information for those
seeking help.)
Jesse
On 1/14/06, Ed Hammond [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
See the official link:
http://mls.lds.org/
Also, for MLS related discussions, the better
list to subscribe to for ongoing dialog is:
http://www.MormonsToday.com/ldsclerks/
This is where clerks discuss such problems, etc.
There are precious few development resources supporting
MLS and the pressure on them is great, so unless it is
painful to CHQ, priorities delay resolving a many items.
I've reported things like the stake's view of membership is
inaccurate relative to what the units have, even after forced
syncs from both sides. The problem remains broken even a year
after submitting the problem report.
As I tell folks
... it is what it is, and it is better than it was, so be grateful ...
Ed
P.S. Fully concur with the concern about exporting all the MLS
data for Emergency Preparedness. MLS has native support for such
and (for the most part) it automatically feeds the stake the info
via secure channels. I'd recommend you investigate that avenue.
Again, ldsclerks has a better audience for that discussion.
--
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:04:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Greg Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Ldsoss] MLS/LUWS Bugs and Feature Requests
Hi All-
Is there a good place to send these? Our unit has been sending them to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (with the blessing of our Stake Admin). Honestly,
it feels like a black hole. Is there a better course of action? Does HQ
have a system for receiving and processing user reported bugs and
feedback?
Thanks,
-Greg
--
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:08:00 -0600
From: Neeland, Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Ldsoss] MLS/LUWS Bugs and Feature Requests
And bugs a plenty there are. We are on v2.3.2 and it got worse. I've
got newborns getting assigned to the Young Single Adults Sunday School
class (I guess that's sort of accurate) and several $100,000 extra
getting reported in a budget area if you print it by previous month.
Hopefully your issues and those others submitted get addressed soon.
Steve
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