Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
Everyone, As I noted yesterday, I replied to Dave C's post on Slashdot. He has posted a response to what I feel was accurate information from those on this list that were supporting LRP and the present condition to the LEAF variants as they compare to the last released LRP today. I feel those of us that used to support LRP itself before LEAF was started may find Dave C's post more than a little interesting. http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=68562threshold=1commentsort=0tid=106mode=threadcid=6282059 At this point, I am not sure that I would be the 'best' person to reply as many of his comments are better answered by those who did more support and development work than I did at the time. It appears that I jumped on a button that triggered more than I expected. It is likely best that I keep my feelings to myself for the present time and let those reply that can more accurately do so while I think about the reply. Thanks, -- ~Lynn Avants Linux Embedded Appliance Firewall Developer http://leaf.sourceforge.net http://guitarlynn.homelinux.org:81 --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
As many others I'm farly new to LEAF. I've been reading all the post on the this mailing list, and other, about the LRP close down. I also read the answer the guy (Dave) gave on Lynn's post on Slashdot. I kind of got A BIT annoyed and posted a short reply as a personal comment. Lynn - I'm impressed that U where able to restrain yourself from replying! I would not been able to :-) Best regards Jorn Everyone, As I noted yesterday, I replied to Dave C's post on Slashdot. He has posted a response to what I feel was accurate information from those on this list that were supporting LRP and the present condition to the LEAF variants as they compare to the last released LRP today. I feel those of us that used to support LRP itself before LEAF was started may find Dave C's post more than a little interesting. http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=68562threshold=1commentsort=0tid=106mode=threadcid=6282059 At this point, I am not sure that I would be the 'best' person to reply as many of his comments are better answered by those who did more support and development work than I did at the time. It appears that I jumped on a button that triggered more than I expected. It is likely best that I keep my feelings to myself for the present time and let those reply that can more accurately do so while I think about the reply. Thanks, -- ~Lynn Avants Linux Embedded Appliance Firewall Developer http://leaf.sourceforge.net http://guitarlynn.homelinux.org:81 --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
At 02:36 AM 6/24/2003 -0500, Lynn Avants wrote: Everyone, As I noted yesterday, I replied to Dave C's post on Slashdot. He has posted a response to what I feel was accurate information from those on this list that were supporting LRP and the present condition to the LEAF variants as they compare to the last released LRP today. I feel those of us that used to support LRP itself before LEAF was started may find Dave C's post more than a little interesting. http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=68562threshold=1commentsort=0tid=106mode=threadcid=6282059 At this point, I am not sure that I would be the 'best' person to reply as many of his comments are better answered by those who did more support and development work than I did at the time. It appears that I jumped on a button that triggered more than I expected. It is likely best that I keep my feelings to myself for the present time and let those reply that can more accurately do so while I think about the reply. Lynn, perhaps the best person to respond is nobody. After all, it's only Slashdot, a site that acts like it is important but, at least these days, seems to me more like a quaint relic of the dot-com days than a central clearing house for the opinions of those who matter. LEAF has been mentioned, complete with URL, several times in the thread. People interested in using Linux as a router can look here and see if Dave is correct in his characterization; people not interested in that use can ... well, who cares what they do? Anyone who comes here will be able to read yesterday's traffic, which includes: 1. Charles' excellent overview of the history of what happened. 2. Mike's excellent timeline of events. 3. An exchange that identifies the substance of the occasion on which for single day [Dave] pulled [his] entire network offilne as an act of protest. Perhaps the most amusing (no, not amusing; sad, really) thing about Dave's response is how careful he is not to mention the content of his act of protest. Perhaps one thing in Dave's remarks does, perhaps, deserve added comment. I am, as old-timers will know and others probably guess, the Ray he refers to when he says: The only thing anybody ever did fully and did really well was Ray handling bounces on the mailing list. I also wrote some how to get started material that he actually made available on the ftp site (in a contrib section), and he took a couple of suggestions I offered about the Web site (providing a link to c0wz, for example), but perhaps he didn't seen that effort as valuable. I did do the mailing-list chores for about 6 months, and it wasn't fun. My intent was to demonstrate to Dave my reliability, as a first step to getting more involved in actual LRP development. It didn't work. To get him even to consider any suggestion at all, I had to be extraordinary self-effacing and fawning in my style -- traits that those of you who know me realize are not my metier. He really wanted an assistant, not a colleague. And he wasn't even that good at using an assistant, since the one other thing he asked me to do (find a better version-control system than CVS) went nowhere when he wouldn't respond to my questions (along the lines of: What is it that don't you like about CVS?, so I could know what he might like better). After six months, he got annoyed at some skeptical comments I made in an e-mail exchange ... I suggested he needed to write something that explained why LRP was distinctive and special, and he read that as an attack on LRP's worth ... and he told me to shut up or get out. I took his ultimatum as an opportunity to escape a responsibility I had, by then, very much regretted accepting. Maybe the most telling thing about Dave's comment is that he values petty scut work over the real development work that was done by Charles, David, Matthew, and others, and real documentation and troubleshooting work by Rick, Mike, and others (including me). Shame on him. While I do not want to minimize the role of the McVeigh statement in precipitating the departure of the developer community from LRP to LEAF -- personally, I would have walked away that day even if no alternative to LRP existed -- neither do I want to exaggerate it. Prior to June 11, Dave had eroded any good will he had earned from developers, troubleshooters, and even some ordinary users ... good will he deserved for his foundational work on LRP, but good will that was not infinite in depth ... by his cavalier dismissal of the work of others and his pervasively insulting tone to developers and users both (remember idiot images?). LRP developers, troubleshooters, and some users had been building the LEAF site as a workaround for months by June 11. What the McVeigh incident did was shift people from workaround mode to independent mode. The most readily visible sign of the shift: traffic on the LRP mailing list dropped by 75-80% after June 12. And LEAF itself took off,
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
Hello I just reacted auf this german artikel about dave closing lrp down, trying to correct the onesided view. http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/ola-23.06.03-004/ my reaction. http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1msg_id=3674760forum_id =44179 and a reaction in a thread about our german concurent fli4l ;) http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1msg_id=3674456forum_id =44179 we got independent positive reaktions too ;) http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1msg_id=3674952forum_id =44179 Regards EricWolzak member of the Bering Crew --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 08:48, Mike Noyes wrote: Everyone, It looks like Dave Cinege is closing LRP down. For those that wish to chat about this: confrence.jabber.org Room: leaf -- Mike Noyes mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/ SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
Am Montag, 23. Juni 2003 19:29 schrieb Lars Kneschke(priv.): eric wolzak [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello I just reacted auf this german artikel about dave closing lrp down, trying to correct the onesided view. Good article! I just can't understand the hype about this topic LRP was/is not the only floppy based linux distribution. And LRP already seem to longer dead for me. Most of the slashdot comments discuss GPL, Dave's attitude and just a few about LRP itself and successors. AFAIK LRP was the porject most of the ideas has been originally developed, which are used in a lot floppy-based distro's. Esp. LEAF has still code and the original skeleton of LRP - and while I don't like the way Dave worked with or without teams, and while I know why LEAF has been splitted off from LRP, he still deserves respect for his work. It's a somewhat sad story, and Dave is the tragic person in it, mostly due a social disability IMHO, but there is no need to bash him the way it happens in some of the comments. To me is not one of the good days in the unwritten history of LEAF. kp --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
Hi could someone please inform the newbies like me a bit more detailed about the political mishap at Dave C.'s site. I was always wondering a bit about his comments in the code but wrote it off as jokes of someone in night mode. Thanks Erich K.-P. Kirchdörfer wrote the following at 20:17 23.06.2003: Am Montag, 23. Juni 2003 19:29 schrieb Lars Kneschke(priv.): eric wolzak [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello I just reacted auf this german artikel about dave closing lrp down, trying to correct the onesided view. Good article! THINK Püntenstrasse 39 8143 Stallikon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Fingerprint: BC9A 25BC 3954 3BC8 C024 8D8A B7D4 FF9D 05B8 0A16 --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 14:00, Erich Titl wrote: could someone please inform the newbies like me a bit more detailed about the political mishap at Dave C.'s site. I was always wondering a bit about his comments in the code but wrote it off as jokes of someone in night mode. Everyone, I still have a tarball of Dave Cinege's linuxrouter.org site from that day. If you want a copy, email me off-list, and I'll send it to you as an attachment. -- Mike Noyes mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/ SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
At 11:00 PM 6/23/2003 +0200, Erich Titl wrote: Hi could someone please inform the newbies like me a bit more detailed about the political mishap at Dave C.'s site. I was always wondering a bit about his comments in the code but wrote it off as jokes of someone in night mode. Boy, this is a day I hate to be reliving the memory of, for any number of reasons. But since you ask ... I think it was Mike's intention to address this indirectly, by pointing to an archive of the LRP mailing list from the time when the exodus happened, since there was a lot of discission of the events of the time there on the list. Unfortunately, when I looked at that archive, I found it oddly incomplete for the days (June 11 and 12) in question. My own departure message from the LRP list, for example, is missing from the archive. I don't know why. While I cannot be sure how much more of that period's traffic is missing from the archive, my memory of those days makes me think that all messages that discussed what Dave actually said on the Web site seem to have been lost somehow. Of the missing material, the only thing I have is my copy of my own departure message, sent on June 12. Rather than try to reconstruct the details from memory, I'll just quote what I said at the time, since that should clarify at least my motive. I will say that at least for me, the issue went beyond using a technical site for a political purpose. --QUOTED MESSAGE BEGINS--- I too will be leaving this list shortly. For what it's worth, I will be reachable via the various LEAF lists. While I don't want to get into an extended debate about my motives, I do want to take a moment to clear up one (probable) misunderstanding. At 11:34 PM 6/12/01 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do you all want such a man dead? Don't you think death is the 'easy way out'? ... My concern about Dave's presentation doesn't come from a position on the death penalty. It comes from his having posted an encomium for Mr. MacVeigh that ends with this sentence: May his effort not go unfinished. No thank you. My best wishes and warmest regards to you all. Good bye. --QUOTED MESSAGE ENDS-- For those who do not remember the name (especially folks from outside the USA), Timothy McVeigh (this is the correct spelling) was convicted of the bombing of a govenment office building in Oklahoma City, a bombing that killed about 150 people. He was executed by lethal injection on June 11, 2001. I used to have a complete copy of the memorial Dave posted to Mr McVeigh on the LRP site that night, but I no longer know where to find it. --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 14:23, Ray Olszewski wrote: Boy, this is a day I hate to be reliving the memory of, for any number of reasons. Ray, Agreed. But since you ask ... I think it was Mike's intention to address this indirectly, by pointing to an archive of the LRP mailing list from the time when the exodus happened, since there was a lot of discission of the events of the time there on the list. Unfortunately, when I looked at that archive, I found it oddly incomplete for the days (June 11 and 12) in question. My own departure message from the LRP list, for example, is missing from the archive. I don't know why. While I cannot be sure how much more of that period's traffic is missing from the archive, my memory of those days makes me think that all messages that discussed what Dave actually said on the Web site seem to have been lost somehow. The MARC interface isn't the best. Your post is there. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-routerr=3b=200106w=2 72. 2001-06-13 [2] [LRP]linux-routerPeter Nosko Clicking on the [2] above gets you to a thread listing, where you'll find your post. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=99239774800014r=1w=2 -- Mike Noyes mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/ SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 10:42, Mike Noyes wrote: On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 08:48, Mike Noyes wrote: Everyone, It looks like Dave Cinege is closing LRP down. For those that wish to chat about this: confrence.jabber.org Room: leaf Everyone, Jabber didn't work well for a chat room, so I just registered an IRC channel for us on SlashNET. This channel will be for project member discussion. All support requests will be redirected to our user list. irc.slashnet.org #leaf -- Mike Noyes mhnoyes at users.sourceforge.net http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/ SF.net Projects: ffl, leaf, phpwebsite, phpwebsite-comm, sitedocs --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] Linux Router Project Dead
Mike and Ray Thanks for the info, I think I got the gist and please excuse if I was nosy. I just happened not to be on either list those days and feel it is a shame that someone with Dave C.'s talent seems to go down the drain, his political opinion notwithstanding. Thanks Erich THINK Püntenstrasse 39 8143 Stallikon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Fingerprint: BC9A 25BC 3954 3BC8 C024 8D8A B7D4 FF9D 05B8 0A16 --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: INetU Attention Web Developers Consultants: Become An INetU Hosting Partner. Refer Dedicated Servers. We Manage Them. You Get 10% Monthly Commission! INetU Dedicated Managed Hosting http://www.inetu.net/partner/index.php ___ leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
