Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
Brock this is kind of late, being off the list for a while... At 23:30 30.10.2003, Brock Nanson wrote: Lynn, I now use the dd command regularly. Once I have a working image, I dd it off the CF for safekeeping, in case I ever need to create another (RSA keys are a PITA to cut and paste etc.) should the first fail. As far as using different size CF, I dd'd an 8MB image onto a 16MB card the other day (none of my 8MB cards could be recognized in this particular box). No issues that I saw. When I took my usual completed copy for backup, the new image was 16MB. Go figure! ;-) So I don't think there are too many issues associated with this. I have yet to have a dd'd CF fail on me. I'd like to hear more about how the earlier poster dealt with the read-only issue. I'd like to find a way to write protect the CF once the config is all done. I believe this was discussed a few times in the past, but I don't know if anything was ever resolved. There are a few HW products which allow write protection, you can find them in the archives. One SW solution which IMHO is pretty attractive is to remove the IDE modules from the kernel and the /boot/modules directory at the end of the init process. This requires the installation of new modules before anything can be done to the IDE devices. Erich THINK Püntenstrasse 39 8143 Stallikon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Fingerprint: BC9A 25BC 3954 3BC8 C024 8D8A B7D4 FF9D 05B8 0A16 --- This SF.Net email sponsored by: ApacheCon 2003, 16-19 November in Las Vegas. Learn firsthand the latest developments in Apache, PHP, Perl, XML, Java, MySQL, WebDAV, and more! http://www.apachecon.com/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 22:30, Brock Nanson wrote: > Lynn, > > I now use the dd command regularly. Once I have a working image, I dd > it off the CF for safekeeping, in case I ever need to create another > (RSA keys are a PITA to cut and paste etc.) should the first fail. > > As far as using different size CF, I dd'd an 8MB image onto a 16MB card > the other day (none of my 8MB cards could be recognized in this > particular box). No issues that I saw. When I took my usual completed > copy for backup, the new image was 16MB. Go figure! ;-) When you do this, there is no problem running fdisk, increasing the size of the partition to the whole card, then running resize2fs to make the filesystem use the whole 16MB. > I'd like to hear more about how the earlier poster dealt with the > read-only issue. I'd like to find a way to write protect the CF once > the config is all done. I believe this was discussed a few times in the > past, but I don't know if anything was ever resolved. I had thought > that creating a kernel without the write ability would be useful. Build > the box, configure, then replace the kernel on the CF. Next boot it's > write-protected. Not sure if or how easy such a change would be. I've been playing with Pebble too; it's a Debian distro that seems to run quite happily on a read-only 64MB CF card. Though as soon as I used APT to install my first package (quagga, which also pulled in net-snmp) it filled up & broke, so I'm now using 128MB CF cards. I think for my needs Pebble may be the way to go in the long term, but we'll see. Originally, the way we did it was by having a /var as tmpfs, and when something touched /var/run/sync.flag, every file in "important" folders in /var were rsynced to /etc/var on the CF card. So, you could play around with the config, firewall yourself out, and just hit "reset", and you would be back to where you started. There are loads of ways of doing it, but for our purposes (box intended for linux newbies who used a web interface), it suited us. John --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
On Thursday 30 October 2003 04:30 pm, Brock Nanson wrote: [...] > As far as using different size CF, I dd'd an 8MB image onto a 16MB card > the other day (none of my 8MB cards could be recognized in this > particular box). No issues that I saw. When I took my usual completed > copy for backup, the new image was 16MB. Go figure! ;-) Depends on the hardware/disks, I was just indicating that I wouldn't guarantee this process to work on 90% of available hardware rather than saying that it wouldn't work much/most of the time. > I'd like to hear more about how the earlier poster dealt with the > read-only issue. I'd like to find a way to write protect the CF once > the config is all done. I believe this was discussed a few times in the > past, but I don't know if anything was ever resolved. I had thought > that creating a kernel without the write ability would be useful. Build > the box, configure, then replace the kernel on the CF. Next boot it's > write-protected. Not sure if or how easy such a change would be. Look at Wisp-dist, it is run ro. -- ~Lynn Avants Linux Embedded Appliance Firewall Developer http://leaf.sourceforge.net http://guitarlynn.homelinux.org:81 --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
Lynn, I now use the dd command regularly. Once I have a working image, I dd it off the CF for safekeeping, in case I ever need to create another (RSA keys are a PITA to cut and paste etc.) should the first fail. As far as using different size CF, I dd'd an 8MB image onto a 16MB card the other day (none of my 8MB cards could be recognized in this particular box). No issues that I saw. When I took my usual completed copy for backup, the new image was 16MB. Go figure! ;-) So I don't think there are too many issues associated with this. I have yet to have a dd'd CF fail on me. I'd like to hear more about how the earlier poster dealt with the read-only issue. I'd like to find a way to write protect the CF once the config is all done. I believe this was discussed a few times in the past, but I don't know if anything was ever resolved. I had thought that creating a kernel without the write ability would be useful. Build the box, configure, then replace the kernel on the CF. Next boot it's write-protected. Not sure if or how easy such a change would be. Brock >Message: 8 >From: Lynn Avants <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash >Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:58:04 -0500 > >On Thursday 30 October 2003 02:35 am, John P. Looney wrote: >[...] Hmm. But it's a lot handier to use 'dd' than anything else. I used to work for a company called Antefacto; we did our own linux distro (based on redhat 7.2, I think), that had a nice build script. Pretty much; >[...] > >It makes since if you are using the same CF card and the specs can be >assumed. However if the size/setup of the cards are not exactly the >same, you have a huge problem. Floppies are a safe assumption to 'dd' >to, but 8M,16M,32M,64M,... CF's are generally not. What kind of >surprise >would you get putting a 8M image on a 64M CF card? >-- >~Lynn Avants --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 14:58, Lynn Avants wrote: > On Thursday 30 October 2003 02:35 am, John P. Looney wrote: > [...] > > Hmm. But it's a lot handier to use 'dd' than anything else. I used to > > work for a company called Antefacto; we did our own linux distro (based > > on redhat 7.2, I think), that had a nice build script. Pretty much; > [...] > > It makes since if you are using the same CF card and the specs can be > assumed. However if the size/setup of the cards are not exactly the > same, you have a huge problem. Floppies are a safe assumption to 'dd' > to, but 8M,16M,32M,64M,... CF's are generally not. What kind of surprise > would you get putting a 8M image on a 64M CF card? I think it'll work, depending on how the IDE interface reports back the CHS settings. We had great fun even on different models of 64MB cards - some are 6.4e+7 some are 1024*1024*64 - some are a mix of the two. But, you could just add something to query the size of the CF in the machine first. That script was part of a read-only CF based distro that was built every night from SRPMs and CVS, so it had to be very automated. john --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
On Thursday 30 October 2003 02:35 am, John P. Looney wrote: [...] > Hmm. But it's a lot handier to use 'dd' than anything else. I used to > work for a company called Antefacto; we did our own linux distro (based > on redhat 7.2, I think), that had a nice build script. Pretty much; [...] It makes since if you are using the same CF card and the specs can be assumed. However if the size/setup of the cards are not exactly the same, you have a huge problem. Floppies are a safe assumption to 'dd' to, but 8M,16M,32M,64M,... CF's are generally not. What kind of surprise would you get putting a 8M image on a 64M CF card? -- ~Lynn Avants Linux Embedded Appliance Firewall Developer http://leaf.sourceforge.net http://guitarlynn.homelinux.org:81 --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
I suggest trying again. I just was looking around there. The overall site is for LRP 2.9.8, BUT section you point to applies to LEAF. On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Andrea Montefusco wrote: > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:23:32 +0100 > From: Andrea Montefusco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Dave Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash > > Dave Hunt wrote: > > I've fount the easiest way to get LEAF onto a CF is to use the > > guide at http://chinese-watercolor.com/LRP/hd/ > > > > Dave, > > the server is not responding: do you have a cached copy ? > Or may be you know a secondary site... > > TIA > >*am* > > - > Andrea Montefusco [EMAIL PROTECTED] > tel: +393356992791 fax: +390623318709 > - > > > > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. > Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it > help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help > YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ > > leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user > SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html > Larry Platzek [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
Dave Hunt wrote: I've fount the easiest way to get LEAF onto a CF is to use the guide at http://chinese-watercolor.com/LRP/hd/ Dave, the server is not responding: do you have a cached copy ? Or may be you know a secondary site... TIA *am* - Andrea Montefusco [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +393356992791 fax: +390623318709 - --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
RE: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
I've fount the easiest way to get LEAF onto a CF is to use the guide at http://chinese-watercolor.com/LRP/hd/ Cheers, Dave. www.me2000.net --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
Hi John, > Does anyone have LEAF images that can be 'dd' onto a CF card? What size > ones are needed ? Lince is just a branch of Bering that makes it easier to install it in devices bigger than a floppy. In our case we developed it preciselly to run in a CF. You just need to install Quagga. Just follow the installer and should install in a CF. We are working on a quite improved release, based on cramfs and with some updates applied (newer kernel and so on). Actually we have it ready, we have just not made it public for the GUI to be ready for real usage (testing it right now). As allways the core system will be GPL and available in SF, but the GUI will be closed source. The core can work without the GUI as allways. So our next steps regarding Lince willl be: 1) Finish GUI tests (almost done) 2) Release image and GUI for paying customers 3) Sell preinstalled Lince (with or without GUI) boxes based on embedded system. 4) A bit later release GPL lince core in SF (you can pay for GUI later on if you want to) 5) Give VAR members of this list the chance to buy OEM and branded versions of the GUI and the box. So for those of you that want to be in a complete GPL side, you will allways have the choice to go to SF and download it. We will give part of our sales to the members of the Leaf team to contribute in the development of the GPL core (besides contributing code ourselves) You can see a screenshot of the GUI here: http://www.eneotecnologia.com/pantallazolince.png You can see pictures of the box here: http://www.eneotecnologia.com/soho_fotos.html Sorry, there is no more information on the website as we are just preparing to start this process. Regards -- Jaime Nebrera - [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
On Wed, 2003-10-29 at 20:11, Charles Steinkuehler wrote:
> Typically, you don't 'dd' an image onto a CF card. You would normally
> treat the CF card as a hard-disk. Once you partition & format a
> suitable area of the CF card, you can copy the syslinux boot-loader and
> the files that make up the LEAF distribution you want to use.
Hmm. But it's a lot handier to use 'dd' than anything else. I used to
work for a company called Antefacto; we did our own linux distro (based
on redhat 7.2, I think), that had a nice build script. Pretty much;
dd if=/dev/zero of=$IMAGE_FILE bs=1024 count=62720 2> /dev/null
echo "
x
c
245
h
16
s
32
r
n
p
1
+2288k
n
p
2
w
" | fdisk $IMAGE_FILE
mkdir /mnt/image
mkdir /mnt/image/rescue
echo "Making blank, formatted and tuned partitions"
dd if=/dev/zero of=/tmp/hda1 bs=1024 count=2288 2> /dev/null
dd if=/dev/zero of=/tmp/hda2 bs=1024 count=60416 2> /dev/null
mkfs -F -m0 /tmp/hda1 2> /dev/null > /dev/null
mkfs -F -m0 /tmp/hda2 2> /dev/null > /dev/null
tune2fs -c 0 /tmp/hda1 2> /dev/null > /dev/null
tune2fs -c 0 /tmp/hda2 2> /dev/null > /dev/null
mount -o loop /tmp/hda1 /mnt/image_hda1
mount -o loop /tmp/hda2 /mnt/image_hda2
MOUNT_POINT=/tmp/os_root
KERNEL_VERSION=`echo $MOUNT_POINT/boot/System.map-* | cut -d '-' -f 2-`
(cd $MOUNT_POINT && tar cf - . ) | (cd /mnt/image_hda2 && tar xf - )
export BUILD_DIR=`pwd`
(cd /mnt/image_hda1 && tar xzf ${BUILD_DIR}/rescue.tar.gz)
chroot /mnt/image_hda2 rpm --rebuilddb
umount /mnt/image_hda1
umount /mnt/image_hda2
fsck -p -f -y /tmp/hda1
fsck -p -f -y /tmp/hda2
# Put the two images into the IMAGE file
echo "Installing blank partitions into Flash Image"
hda1_offset_blocks="16"
hda2_offset_blocks="2304"
dd if=/tmp/hda1 of=$IMAGE_FILE seek=$hda1_offset_blocks bs=1024
dd if=/tmp/hda2 of=$IMAGE_FILE seek=$hda2_offset_blocks bs=1024
hda2_offset_bytes="2359296"
hda1_offset_bytes="16384"
losetup -o $hda2_offset_bytes /dev/loop6 $WORKING_FILE
losetup -o $hda1_offset_bytes /dev/loop7 $WORKING_FILE
mount -t ext2 /dev/loop6 /mnt/image_hda2
mount -t ext2 /dev/loop7 /mnt/image_hda2/mnt
losetup -d /dev/loop5 2> /dev/null
losetup /dev/loop5 $WORKING_FILE
lilo -C ./lilo.conf
Where hda1 was to be a 2M "rescue" partition, with the kernel, and
enough smarts to download a new hda2 if stuff broke. Quite cute, really.
We had the OS changed to run the flash read-only (/var was tmpfs, synced
with an archive in / intermittently).
And ta-da, you have a bootable 64MB image that can be put on a flash
card with "dd". No messing with tarballs etc. and it compresses really
well if there aren't 64MB of files on it. I'd like to something like
that for leaf, if there was interest. I need it for some quagga-based
routers I'm building anyway. I'm still hunting down the bits & pieces I
need, but if someone had a tarball of LEAF with working quagga binaries,
that would be a start.
> Normally, the main thing you'll need to tweak is the kernel command line
> (to tell LEAF where to find it's packages, since you're not booting off
> the floppy disk), and possibly load the proper drivers for your CF card
> (typically just the IDE drivers, if they're not compiled into the
> kernel). The instruction for installing your chosen LEAF varient (I
> suggest Bering) on a hard-disk are a good starting point, and you can
> post to the list if you run into any problems.
OK, will do. Thanks.
John
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Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
On Wed, 2003-10-29 at 21:42, Steve Wright wrote: > > I'm looking to have a LEAF box running Quagga (the forked version of > > Zebra), and CF would be a lot nicer than a floppy. > /me wondering, why the forked version? Zebra has pretty much stopped being developed; the guys who submitted loads of ignored patches forked it, and got development up & running. I think there are something like 1300 unfixed bugs in Zebra, compared to Quagga. The guys that were working on Zebra concentrated more on ZebOS, the commerical version. So say the guys on www.quagga.net, and seeing as they are still releasing, I'm tempted to believe them. john --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 08:44, John P. Looney wrote: > Does anyone have LEAF images that can be 'dd' onto a CF card? What size > ones are needed ? be careful 'dd'ing images to a flash disk. it's kinda easy to trash the boot block, and it's rather a long road to fix that. > I'm looking to have a LEAF box running Quagga (the forked version of > Zebra), and CF would be a lot nicer than a floppy. /me wondering, why the forked version? /steve --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
I have found in my use of CF disks the easiest thing to do is syslinux -s the CF disk and then blow apart the image and copy the lrps,kernel, and boot config files directly on it. This works wonderfully. Boot times are around 5 seconds. backing up packages is really fast. Only problem I have right now is no write blocking without physical access to the box and opening it up. On Wed, 2003-10-29 at 13:44, John P. Looney wrote: > Does anyone have LEAF images that can be 'dd' onto a CF card? What size > ones are needed ? > > I'm looking to have a LEAF box running Quagga (the forked version of > Zebra), and CF would be a lot nicer than a floppy. > > John > > > > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. > Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it > help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help > YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ > > leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user > SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html > > --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
Re: [leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
John P. Looney wrote: Does anyone have LEAF images that can be 'dd' onto a CF card? What size ones are needed ? I'm looking to have a LEAF box running Quagga (the forked version of Zebra), and CF would be a lot nicer than a floppy. Typically, you don't 'dd' an image onto a CF card. You would normally treat the CF card as a hard-disk. Once you partition & format a suitable area of the CF card, you can copy the syslinux boot-loader and the files that make up the LEAF distribution you want to use. If you're not real familiar with using CF cards, you may want to get plain 'ole DOS booting off of it first, to make sure you've properly formatted your CF card, configured your BIOS, etc. Then you can get LEAF running, and you can be pretty sure any problems you encounter need to be solved on the linux side. Normally, the main thing you'll need to tweak is the kernel command line (to tell LEAF where to find it's packages, since you're not booting off the floppy disk), and possibly load the proper drivers for your CF card (typically just the IDE drivers, if they're not compiled into the kernel). The instruction for installing your chosen LEAF varient (I suggest Bering) on a hard-disk are a good starting point, and you can post to the list if you run into any problems. -- Charles Steinkuehler [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
[leaf-user] LEAF on compact flash
Does anyone have LEAF images that can be 'dd' onto a CF card? What size ones are needed ? I'm looking to have a LEAF box running Quagga (the forked version of Zebra), and CF would be a lot nicer than a floppy. John --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ leaf-user mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user SR FAQ: http://leaf-project.org/pub/doc/docmanager/docid_1891.html
