Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Let's suppose you are using data from external source to estimate actual travel speed at various places. Then you are assigning travel speed to edges of road network obtained from OSM. Even if the travel speeds are kept in separate table, to use them in routing algorithm you need to define some relation between your data and OSM based network, probably some relation through Id of edges. In this case the travel speeds are in fact additional attribute of OSM network edges, even if you keep them in different database table. As far as I understand the ODbl license and community guidelines, I think this kind of relation creates derivative database, where you have Share- alike obligation (If you are using it publicly). It doesn’t necessarily mean, your traffic data will be imported directly to OSM. I think, It means you have to publish them under ODbl? Am I wrong? Karel -- Původní zpráva -- Od: Simon Poole Komu: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Datum: 8. 1. 2015 12:43:10 Předmět: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data "Am 07.01.2015 um 13:00 schrieb Henning Hollburg: > Let's say I have a great source of Floating Car Data (FCD). I'd like to > use this FCD to calculate precise weights for edges I derived from OSM. > These edges will be used in an online navigation application later on. The crux is the "later on" algorithmically combining data/datasets on device is at least a grey area, specifically if the non-OSM data is actually dynamic. As a tendency I would lean on the side of the result being a produced work and that 4.5.b would apply. Naturally you can create some undesirable corner cases (distributing a diff between OSM and your OSM+), but that's probably unavoidable and likely not to have any real consequences. > Do I need to publish these weights according to the ODbL? You are never required to publish you original proprietary data, just the derivative database (if it actually exists). Simon___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk";___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Am 07.01.2015 um 13:00 schrieb Henning Hollburg: > Let's say I have a great source of Floating Car Data (FCD). I'd like to > use this FCD to calculate precise weights for edges I derived from OSM. > These edges will be used in an online navigation application later on. The crux is the "later on" algorithmically combining data/datasets on device is at least a grey area, specifically if the non-OSM data is actually dynamic. As a tendency I would lean on the side of the result being a produced work and that 4.5.b would apply. Naturally you can create some undesirable corner cases (distributing a diff between OSM and your OSM+), but that's probably unavoidable and likely not to have any real consequences. > Do I need to publish these weights according to the ODbL? You are never required to publish you original proprietary data, just the derivative database (if it actually exists). Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Hi, 2015-01-08 4:44 GMT+01:00 Stephan Knauss : > For OSM it would be much more convenient when the license says "You are > allowed to use the OSM data, but when you change it you give OSM the right > to merge back your changes if they want to". > As far as I understand it, it works that way - if data is publicly used, it has to be licensed under ODbL. > Probably we should adjust the license one more time before too much > incompatible data is being imported. > And I'm asking for stricter regulations considering imports. Data not > compatible with future license changes must not be imported at all. Other > mappers are building their changes on a weak foundation. > Mappers will import as much as they can (caring for their neighbourhood's presence), and when in doubt will import until they can - we've seen this already. And who's gonna tell you what the future licenses are? ODbL is not perfect, but it's CTs that made things more messy, especially they have changed over time (funny thing, huh? do you know which data is under which CTs?). And they make sure that "you have the right to authorize OSMF to use and distribute those Contents under our current licence terms", and then OSMF "may only use or sub-license Your Contents as part of a database and only under the terms of one or more of the following licences: ODbL 1.0 for the database and DbCL 1.0 for the individual contents of the database; CC-BY-SA 2.0; or such other free and open licence (for example, http://www.opendefinition.org/okd/) as may from time to time be chosen by a vote of the OSMF membership and approved by at least a 2/3 majority vote of active contributors". So you give OSMF right to change the license for data you were able to import under (currently) ODbL, even though you may not be entitled to grant them this right (if you're importing something). So it's just one big bag of data with messy licensing hardcoded in. I doubt you will succeed in any actions you've stated above. Regards, Tadeusz ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Hi Paul, On 08.01.2015 10:31, Paul Norman wrote: On 1/7/2015 7:21 PM, Stephan Knauss wrote: And an even harder time to get rid of the data in case of another license change in the future. See http://osmfoundation.org/wiki/License#Can_third-party_ODbL-licenses_data_be_imported.3F. It works like any other imported data. that's exactly the point. ODbL is not a suitable license for data being imported into OSM. Date being inserted under the contributor terms come with much more freedom to be used by OSMF (and the membership deciding about the open license used) with respect to the license chosen for distribution. So what happens is that a user enters data to OSM (with CT agreed), then data is distributed as ODbL by OSMF. Then extended by 3rd party. That extended data i now less free to use from an OSM point of view. For OSM it would be much more convenient when the license says "You are allowed to use the OSM data, but when you change it you give OSM the right to merge back your changes if they want to". Probably we should adjust the license one more time before too much incompatible data is being imported. And I'm asking for stricter regulations considering imports. Data not compatible with future license changes must not be imported at all. Other mappers are building their changes on a weak foundation. Maybe time to open a new thread as we're moving away from the original point of satnav data being released to a generic discussion. Stephan ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
On 1/7/2015 7:21 PM, Stephan Knauss wrote: We could start merging 3rd party ODbL into OSM We can do so right now from a legal perspective. In fact, there are imports of ODbL data that have taken place. But then have a hard time to fulfill attribution requirements. No - we'd attribute the same way we attribute other sources. And an even harder time to get rid of the data in case of another license change in the future. See http://osmfoundation.org/wiki/License#Can_third-party_ODbL-licenses_data_be_imported.3F. It works like any other imported data. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Hi, On 07.01.2015 16:30, Henning Hollburg wrote: http://stevecoast.com/2014/05/19/why-openstreetmap-is-now-navigation-ready-for-people-like-you/ Doesn't this mean that this data has to be published according to the ODbL? If not, why? As having all those databases being released might be good for the people wanting the data, it brings no benefit to OSM. The purpose of ODbL is to keep data open. That's great. My opinion is: For OSM the thing most contributors favoring a share alike license model really want is a a clause which forces data consumers to grant a license to OSMF to incorporate modified/exended data back into OSM database. ODbL does not contain such a "merge" clause. We could start merging 3rd party ODbL into OSM. But then have a hard time to fulfill attribution requirements. And an even harder time to get rid of the data in case of another license change in the future. We need all contributors to agree to the contributor terms, granting a license to the OSMF to re-distribute the data. Maybe we can change the license one more time to an OSM-ODbL. Not only requiring to release data as ODbL but also granting OSMF the same rights as in contributor terms. Stephan ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Hi, On 01/07/2015 01:14 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > If the format is encrypted (or simply not documented) Sectin 3.1 of the license lists a number of rights, including "Extraction and Re-utilisation of the whole or a Substantial part of the Contents; Creation of Derivative Databases; Creation of Collective Databases". Section 4.7a says that you may not impose technological measures that "have the effect or intent of restricting the ability of any person to exercise those rights." Encryption or DRM would clearly fall under this, but even an un-documented data format could be said to "have the effect of restricting...". Section 4.7b says that you may violate 4.7a if you, in parallel, distribute a non-encumbered version of the data. You could, for example, distribute a highly compressed and efficiently packed version of your data and keep the data format a secret if you, in parallel, distribute an ASCII dump of the same. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
2015-01-06 20:39 GMT+01:00 Paul Norman : > It depends. If they are not adding any data, they can simply point to the > source (planet.osm.org). > > If they are adding data, they need to provide the entire derivative > database (4.6.a) or an alteration file (4.6.b) with the new contents. Based > on my experience, I would be surprised if they had non-OSM data in a > derivative database. Far more common is to layer OSM data with other data. > > It would be nice if be-on-the-road documented their format and provided > open-source tools to use it, but this is not a legal requirement. The ODbL > is concerned with preserving the openness of the data, not of the data > format. > If the format is encrypted (or simply not documented), how would you be able to verify that someone has not combined different data sources? Do we have to trust the publisher that they follow the ODbL provisions, or is there a way to enforce verifiability? cheers, Martin ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Let's say I have a great source of Floating Car Data (FCD). I'd like to use this FCD to calculate precise weights for edges I derived from OSM. These edges will be used in an online navigation application later on. Do I need to publish these weights according to the ODbL? In general I believe that in the next years more and more of such applications will pop up as the required FCD is increasingly easy to get. Also I believe there is a great potential in such applications. It will be just a matter of time until such applications will be more than just a marketing blurb. So it would be interesting to know what this means in an ODbL context. I do see the point, that TeleNav has contributed a lot to OSM directly and don't want to neglect that at all. I really appreciate what they did and do. Still the ODbL is the same for everyone... Best regards Henning 2015-01-07 11:30 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole : > > Marketing != Reality > > It is just some marketing blurb to sell their product, trying to derive > what they are really doing from it is just speculation. > > We -do- know that TeleNav has added lots of stuff to OSM directly (for > example http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mvexel/diary/28211) and/or are > providing such data to the OSM community ScoutSigns, maproulette > challenges etc. for use to improve OSM data. Which all is clearly > unproblematic, not to say very good. > > Simon > > Am 07.01.2015 um 10:30 schrieb Henning Hollburg: > > Hi, > > > > as far as I understand the community guideline the creation of a > > routable graph from the OSM data (only!) is regarded a "trivial > > transformation" that doesn't have to be published under the ODbL. > > > > I am wondering now what happens when you combine this graph with other > > (non open) data. > > > > One example is Skobbler: > > > > http://developer.skobbler.com/features#qualityMapData > > > > /"//traffic data from millions of devices is being reintegrated into our > > navigation map and routing algorithm. This means that your next route > > will take the latest turn restrictions, traffic speed, speed cameras, > > and more into consideration.//"/ > > > > some more information: > > > > > http://stevecoast.com/2014/05/19/why-openstreetmap-is-now-navigation-ready-for-people-like-you/ > > > > Doesn't this mean that this data has to be published according to the > > ODbL? If not, why? > > > > Best regards > > > > Henning > > > > > > Am 07.01.2015 um 09:51 schrieb Karel Charvat: > >> Thank you very much. I needed exactly somethink like this. > >> > >> -- Původní zpráva -- > >> Od: Simon Poole > >> Komu: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > >> Datum: 7. 1. 2015 9:09:38 > >> Předmět: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl > >> license of OSM data > >> > >> > >> Please see > >> > >> > http://osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Community_Guidelines___ > >> legal-talk mailing list > >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > >> > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> legal-talk mailing list > >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > > > > > > > ___ > > legal-talk mailing list > > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > > > > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Marketing != Reality It is just some marketing blurb to sell their product, trying to derive what they are really doing from it is just speculation. We -do- know that TeleNav has added lots of stuff to OSM directly (for example http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mvexel/diary/28211) and/or are providing such data to the OSM community ScoutSigns, maproulette challenges etc. for use to improve OSM data. Which all is clearly unproblematic, not to say very good. Simon Am 07.01.2015 um 10:30 schrieb Henning Hollburg: > Hi, > > as far as I understand the community guideline the creation of a > routable graph from the OSM data (only!) is regarded a "trivial > transformation" that doesn't have to be published under the ODbL. > > I am wondering now what happens when you combine this graph with other > (non open) data. > > One example is Skobbler: > > http://developer.skobbler.com/features#qualityMapData > > /"//traffic data from millions of devices is being reintegrated into our > navigation map and routing algorithm. This means that your next route > will take the latest turn restrictions, traffic speed, speed cameras, > and more into consideration.//"/ > > some more information: > > http://stevecoast.com/2014/05/19/why-openstreetmap-is-now-navigation-ready-for-people-like-you/ > > Doesn't this mean that this data has to be published according to the > ODbL? If not, why? > > Best regards > > Henning > > > Am 07.01.2015 um 09:51 schrieb Karel Charvat: >> Thank you very much. I needed exactly somethink like this. >> >> ------ Původní zpráva ------ >> Od: Simon Poole >> Komu: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org >> Datum: 7. 1. 2015 9:09:38 >> Předmět: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl >> license of OSM data >> >> >> Please see >> >> >> http://osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Community_Guidelines___ >> legal-talk mailing list >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk >> >> >> >> ___ >> legal-talk mailing list >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > > > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Hi, as far as I understand the community guideline the creation of a routable graph from the OSM data (only!) is regarded a "trivial transformation" that doesn't have to be published under the ODbL. I am wondering now what happens when you combine this graph with other (non open) data. One example is Skobbler: http://developer.skobbler.com/features#qualityMapData /"//traffic data from millions of devices is being reintegrated into our navigation map and routing algorithm. This means that your next route will take the latest turn restrictions, traffic speed, speed cameras, and more into consideration.//"/ some more information: http://stevecoast.com/2014/05/19/why-openstreetmap-is-now-navigation-ready-for-people-like-you/ Doesn't this mean that this data has to be published according to the ODbL? If not, why? Best regards Henning Am 07.01.2015 um 09:51 schrieb Karel Charvat: > Thank you very much. I needed exactly somethink like this. > > -- Původní zpráva -- > Od: Simon Poole > Komu: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > Datum: 7. 1. 2015 9:09:38 > Předmět: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl > license of OSM data > > > Please see > > > http://osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Community_Guidelines___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > > > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Thank you very much. I needed exactly somethink like this. -- Původní zpráva -- Od: Simon Poole Komu: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Datum: 7. 1. 2015 9:09:38 Předmět: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data "Please see http://osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Community_Guidelines__ _ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk";___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
Please see http://osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Community_Guidelines signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
If you are using OSM data for routing, you must do some modifications to obtain routable network with correct topology. I think creating this routable network from original OSM data means creating Derivative Database, even if you are not adding any new information into data set. Routable network based on OSM data contains much more road segments than original data set. -- Původní zpráva -- Od: Paul Norman Komu: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Datum: 6. 1. 2015 20:42:06 Předmět: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data "On 1/6/2015 11:01 AM, Karel Charvat wrote: > Are the developers of Be-On-Road fullfilling their ODbl license > obligations by providing their data only in files with unknown format? It depends. If they are not adding any data, they can simply point to the source (planet.osm.org). If they are adding data, they need to provide the entire derivative database (4.6.a) or an alteration file (4.6.b) with the new contents. Based on my experience, I would be surprised if they had non-OSM data in a derivative database. Far more common is to layer OSM data with other data. It would be nice if be-on-the-road documented their format and provided open-source tools to use it, but this is not a legal requirement. The ODbL is concerned with preserving the openness of the data, not of the data format. They of course need to meet the other obligations of the ODbL (e.g. attribution). ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk";___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM based GPS navigations and ODbl license of OSM data
On 1/6/2015 11:01 AM, Karel Charvat wrote: Are the developers of Be-On-Road fullfilling their ODbl license obligations by providing their data only in files with unknown format? It depends. If they are not adding any data, they can simply point to the source (planet.osm.org). If they are adding data, they need to provide the entire derivative database (4.6.a) or an alteration file (4.6.b) with the new contents. Based on my experience, I would be surprised if they had non-OSM data in a derivative database. Far more common is to layer OSM data with other data. It would be nice if be-on-the-road documented their format and provided open-source tools to use it, but this is not a legal requirement. The ODbL is concerned with preserving the openness of the data, not of the data format. They of course need to meet the other obligations of the ODbL (e.g. attribution). ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
