Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 8:12 AM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > Is Google Maps(MapMaker) now starting to use OSM data? I've been adding a > lot of data to > OSM this past month, and have seen that data also appearing on Google Maps. I'm not sure if there's anything new about it, but it sounds to me like they are using OSM data. Why is this on legal-talk? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote: > Eric Jarvies schrieb: >> >> Is Google Maps(MapMaker) now starting to use OSM data? > > From all I've heard, they probably have been for some time, and given they > are in the US, they probably can legally use our data under the current > license just like it would be PD, so they are happily doing that. > > IANAL, and all information is from hearsay, but that's how I take all that. > > Robert Kaiser > >From what I understand they would only be able to distribute it in the US under the veil of PD, it would still be covered by copyright in EU. Don't know about Mexico. -- /emj ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
Eric Jarvies schrieb: Is Google Maps(MapMaker) now starting to use OSM data? From all I've heard, they probably have been for some time, and given they are in the US, they probably can legally use our data under the current license just like it would be PD, so they are happily doing that. IANAL, and all information is from hearsay, but that's how I take all that. Robert Kaiser ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
80n <80n...@...> writes: >I think we'd all love Google to use OSM content and they are welcome to do so >as long they provide the correct attribution. This is probably the right >spirit in which to approach them initially. What we'd love even more is for Google to open up their Map Maker crowdsourced data so that it can be incorporated into OSM. It makes no sense to have two rival projects to map the world. If we could reach some understanding whereby they can use our data (or at least trace from our tiles) and vice versa, that would be the ideal outcome. We're all eager to know how this turns out and what Google's response is. -- Ed Avis ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
2010/9/8 Eric Jarvies : > Eric, to be clear about what I advised - you should take this up directly > with Google, as you are the copyright holder. The OSMF and the Data Working > Group might be able to support you but they are not the copyright holder - > you are. > > > Ok. But I really have no desire to do so at this point. Instead, if after a > period of time, this currently 'assumed/speculated/non-substantiated' > activity continues, then I would of course send them an email reminding them > to attribute and adhere to the OSM license, and go from there. Right? The thing is that if your suspicion turns out to be true it is very likely not the only data on Google that is from OSM. Cheers, Martin ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > > On Sep 8, 2010, at 2:58 AM, 80n wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > >> >> On Sep 8, 2010, at 2:25 AM, Sam Larsen wrote: >> >> > Eric, >> > >> > Unless you post the details of this edit on the list - then all this >> info is >> > useless for the rest of us reading it. As you can see there are way too >> many >> > emails on this list for any sane person to keep up with & this is just >> adding to >> > the overload. If you have provided the details to the data working >> group - then >> > that is great, and from our point of view they are the best people for >> you to >> > continue this investigation/discussion with. >> > >> I sent the way/info to the suggested OSM email address/people at OSM(read >> previous dialog in this thread) earlier today after having been advised(by >> Richard and 80n I believe) to do so. >> >> Eric, to be clear about what I advised - you should take this up directly > with Google, as you are the copyright holder. The OSMF and the Data Working > Group might be able to support you but they are not the copyright holder - > you are. > > > Ok. But I really have no desire to do so at this point. Instead, if after > a period of time, this currently 'assumed/speculated/non-substantiated' > activity continues, then I would of course send them an email reminding them > to attribute and adhere to the OSM license, and go from there. Right? > > You seem fairly knowledgeable in these subject matters... perhaps you could > share some wisdom/informal advise of a legal nature pertaining to > copyright/license/etc. Much of the data I am posting to OSM now, over the > past years I have licensed it out to various companies/persons for monetary > gain, wherein they could not resell, etc. the data. Now that I am posting > some of this same data of mine here in OSM under share alike/attribution > license, what happens to the status of my original data? I can still > license independently, correct? For example... i will be posting properties > to OSM, but I will not be posting property owner names, property owner > histories, etc., because I still actively sell/license that data to third > parties... but in doing so, I always provide them with the geometries. > After I post these geometries to OSM, and I later sell/license some data to > someone, and provide them with the geometries from my source data, like in > PostgreSQL or shapefile format, does that in any way conflict with the same > data I have previously posted on OSM under an entirely different license? I > am under the current understanding that there is no problem with with... I > can contribute to OSM some of my data, and that data then becomes subject to > the CC by SA license terms, whilst at the same time I can license the same > data differently to someone else... is this right? > > Eric, yes that's exactly right. > > Thanks! > > Eric Jarvies > > > > >> Eric Jarvies >> >> > Sam >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > - Original Message >> >> From: Eric Jarvies >> >> To: Licensing and other legal discussions. < >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org> >> >> Sent: Tue, 7 September, 2010 19:52:22 >> >> Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data... >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Richard Weait wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Eric Jarvies >> wrote: >> >>>> On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Richard Weait wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>> Also, as more data sets are opening up it is possible that Map >> Maker >> >>>>> and OSM editors are using similar sources. >> >>>> >> >>>> Yes, I understand this and the context you are explaining it in. >> But how >> >> does this apply to the edit I made to the OSM data? This edit was not >> some >> >> recently made available source that was provided to OSM, Google, and >> others, it >> >> was a just a newbee screw up by yours truly, that resulted in a very >> unique and >> >> deliberate edit to an existing OSM coastline, that subsequently ended >> up in >> >> Google's data, as is clearly(to me) being rendered now. I was just >> shocked to >> >> see that Google had inherited my screwed up edit of an existing OSM >> coastline, >> >> and
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Sep 8, 2010, at 2:58 AM, 80n wrote: > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > > On Sep 8, 2010, at 2:25 AM, Sam Larsen wrote: > > > Eric, > > > > Unless you post the details of this edit on the list - then all this info is > > useless for the rest of us reading it. As you can see there are way too > > many > > emails on this list for any sane person to keep up with & this is just > > adding to > > the overload. If you have provided the details to the data working group - > > then > > that is great, and from our point of view they are the best people for you > > to > > continue this investigation/discussion with. > > > I sent the way/info to the suggested OSM email address/people at OSM(read > previous dialog in this thread) earlier today after having been advised(by > Richard and 80n I believe) to do so. > > Eric, to be clear about what I advised - you should take this up directly > with Google, as you are the copyright holder. The OSMF and the Data Working > Group might be able to support you but they are not the copyright holder - > you are. > Ok. But I really have no desire to do so at this point. Instead, if after a period of time, this currently 'assumed/speculated/non-substantiated' activity continues, then I would of course send them an email reminding them to attribute and adhere to the OSM license, and go from there. Right? You seem fairly knowledgeable in these subject matters... perhaps you could share some wisdom/informal advise of a legal nature pertaining to copyright/license/etc. Much of the data I am posting to OSM now, over the past years I have licensed it out to various companies/persons for monetary gain, wherein they could not resell, etc. the data. Now that I am posting some of this same data of mine here in OSM under share alike/attribution license, what happens to the status of my original data? I can still license independently, correct? For example... i will be posting properties to OSM, but I will not be posting property owner names, property owner histories, etc., because I still actively sell/license that data to third parties... but in doing so, I always provide them with the geometries. After I post these geometries to OSM, and I later sell/license some data to someone, and provide them with the geometries from my source data, like in PostgreSQL or shapefile format, does that in any way conflict with the same data I have previously posted on OSM under an entirely different license? I am under the current understanding that there is no problem with with... I can contribute to OSM some of my data, and that data then becomes subject to the CC by SA license terms, whilst at the same time I can license the same data differently to someone else... is this right? Thanks! Eric Jarvies > > > Eric Jarvies > > > Sam > > > > > > > > > > - Original Message ---- > >> From: Eric Jarvies > >> To: Licensing and other legal discussions. > >> Sent: Tue, 7 September, 2010 19:52:22 > >> Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data... > >> > >> > >> On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > >> > >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > >>>> On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > >>> > >>>>> Also, as more data sets are opening up it is possible that Map Maker > >>>>> and OSM editors are using similar sources. > >>>> > >>>> Yes, I understand this and the context you are explaining it in. But > >>>> how > >> does this apply to the edit I made to the OSM data? This edit was not > >> some > >> recently made available source that was provided to OSM, Google, and > >> others, it > >> was a just a newbee screw up by yours truly, that resulted in a very > >> unique and > >> deliberate edit to an existing OSM coastline, that subsequently ended up in > >> Google's data, as is clearly(to me) being rendered now. I was just > >> shocked to > >> see that Google had inherited my screwed up edit of an existing OSM > >> coastline, > >> and that shock turned into interest, which is why I asked here if they > >> are now > >> using OSM data. In short, there really is no other 'similar source' in > >> this > >> case... they either got the coastline/way directly from OSM, or got it > >> from > >> someone else who got it directly from OSM. > >>> > >>> Dear Eric, > >>> > >>> I
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:30 AM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > > On Sep 8, 2010, at 2:25 AM, Sam Larsen wrote: > > > Eric, > > > > Unless you post the details of this edit on the list - then all this info > is > > useless for the rest of us reading it. As you can see there are way too > many > > emails on this list for any sane person to keep up with & this is just > adding to > > the overload. If you have provided the details to the data working group > - then > > that is great, and from our point of view they are the best people for > you to > > continue this investigation/discussion with. > > > I sent the way/info to the suggested OSM email address/people at OSM(read > previous dialog in this thread) earlier today after having been advised(by > Richard and 80n I believe) to do so. > > Eric, to be clear about what I advised - you should take this up directly with Google, as you are the copyright holder. The OSMF and the Data Working Group might be able to support you but they are not the copyright holder - you are. > Eric Jarvies > > > Sam > > > > > > > > > > - Original Message > >> From: Eric Jarvies > >> To: Licensing and other legal discussions. < > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org> > >> Sent: Tue, 7 September, 2010 19:52:22 > >> Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data... > >> > >> > >> On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > >> > >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > >>>> On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > >>> > >>>>> Also, as more data sets are opening up it is possible that Map Maker > >>>>> and OSM editors are using similar sources. > >>>> > >>>> Yes, I understand this and the context you are explaining it in. But > how > >> does this apply to the edit I made to the OSM data? This edit was not > some > >> recently made available source that was provided to OSM, Google, and > others, it > >> was a just a newbee screw up by yours truly, that resulted in a very > unique and > >> deliberate edit to an existing OSM coastline, that subsequently ended up > in > >> Google's data, as is clearly(to me) being rendered now. I was just > shocked to > >> see that Google had inherited my screwed up edit of an existing OSM > coastline, > >> and that shock turned into interest, which is why I asked here if they > are now > >> using OSM data. In short, there really is no other 'similar source' in > this > >> case... they either got the coastline/way directly from OSM, or got it > from > >> someone else who got it directly from OSM. > >>> > >>> Dear Eric, > >>> > >>> It is hard for me to say what happened. What you describe above does > >>> make it sound like a GMM contributor used OSM as a source after your > >>> edit, but before you repaired it. If I haven't overlooked something; > >>> perhaps a GMM contributor made the same newbee mistake? > >> > >> Well, this is what aroused my interest... after the initial shock of > seeing my > >> mistake for a second time... first on OSM, and then now on Google > MapMaker(I'm > >> talking a considerable stretch of coastline), I then looked at what is > and what > >> is not possible to edit on Google MapMaker... and coastlines are NOT > possible > >> to edit by contributors, or at least my user account will not allow it. > >> > >>> And if there > >>> is no other innocent explanation; you didn't make the edit on GMM > >>> yourself did you? ;-) > >> > >> No, I have never contributed data to the MapMaker repo. > >> > >>> Then 80n's description above is correct. > >>> Infringement is much more likely to be a result of ignorance rather > >>> than malice. It is still infringement but it might best be resolved > >>> with a please and thank you than with a nasty-gram. > >> > >> I was merely curious if Google had started using OSM data, simply > because I > >> was painfully reminded of that terrible coastline screw-up I made, that > was the > >> bane of my initial OSM editing experience(not knowing that the > coastline is not > >> rendered immediately/regularly). So apart from the initial shock of > seeing it > >> replicated on Google's MapMaker a week
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Sep 8, 2010, at 2:25 AM, Sam Larsen wrote: > Eric, > > Unless you post the details of this edit on the list - then all this info is > useless for the rest of us reading it. As you can see there are way too many > emails on this list for any sane person to keep up with & this is just adding > to > the overload. If you have provided the details to the data working group - > then > that is great, and from our point of view they are the best people for you to > continue this investigation/discussion with. > I sent the way/info to the suggested OSM email address/people at OSM(read previous dialog in this thread) earlier today after having been advised(by Richard and 80n I believe) to do so. Eric Jarvies > Sam > > > > > - Original Message >> From: Eric Jarvies >> To: Licensing and other legal discussions. >> Sent: Tue, 7 September, 2010 19:52:22 >> Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data... >> >> >> On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Richard Weait wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Eric Jarvies wrote: >>>> On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Richard Weait wrote: >>> >>>>> Also, as more data sets are opening up it is possible that Map Maker >>>>> and OSM editors are using similar sources. >>>> >>>> Yes, I understand this and the context you are explaining it in. But how >> does this apply to the edit I made to the OSM data? This edit was not some >> >> recently made available source that was provided to OSM, Google, and others, >> it >> was a just a newbee screw up by yours truly, that resulted in a very unique >> and >> deliberate edit to an existing OSM coastline, that subsequently ended up in >> Google's data, as is clearly(to me) being rendered now. I was just shocked >> to >> see that Google had inherited my screwed up edit of an existing OSM >> coastline, >> and that shock turned into interest, which is why I asked here if they are >> now >> using OSM data. In short, there really is no other 'similar source' in >> this >> case... they either got the coastline/way directly from OSM, or got it from >> someone else who got it directly from OSM. >>> >>> Dear Eric, >>> >>> It is hard for me to say what happened. What you describe above does >>> make it sound like a GMM contributor used OSM as a source after your >>> edit, but before you repaired it. If I haven't overlooked something; >>> perhaps a GMM contributor made the same newbee mistake? >> >> Well, this is what aroused my interest... after the initial shock of seeing >> my >> mistake for a second time... first on OSM, and then now on Google >> MapMaker(I'm >> talking a considerable stretch of coastline), I then looked at what is and >> what >> is not possible to edit on Google MapMaker... and coastlines are NOT >> possible >> to edit by contributors, or at least my user account will not allow it. >> >>> And if there >>> is no other innocent explanation; you didn't make the edit on GMM >>> yourself did you? ;-) >> >> No, I have never contributed data to the MapMaker repo. >> >>> Then 80n's description above is correct. >>> Infringement is much more likely to be a result of ignorance rather >>> than malice. It is still infringement but it might best be resolved >>> with a please and thank you than with a nasty-gram. >> >> I was merely curious if Google had started using OSM data, simply because I >> was painfully reminded of that terrible coastline screw-up I made, that was >> the >> bane of my initial OSM editing experience(not knowing that the coastline is >> not >> rendered immediately/regularly). So apart from the initial shock of seeing >> it >> replicated on Google's MapMaker a week or two after the initial incident >> occurred, I was just downright curious why it would be there, as I thought >> Google did not use OSM data. So this was a curious fact finding mission >> wrought from a screwed-up coastline editing experience... nothing more. >> >> >> >>> >>> I do still recommend that you share the location and details with >>> OSMers you trust with more experience than you have; you did describe >>> yourself as a newbee. >> >> I emailed the way to the email address you provided me previously, thank >> you. >> >
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
Eric, Unless you post the details of this edit on the list - then all this info is useless for the rest of us reading it. As you can see there are way too many emails on this list for any sane person to keep up with & this is just adding to the overload. If you have provided the details to the data working group - then that is great, and from our point of view they are the best people for you to continue this investigation/discussion with. Sam - Original Message > From: Eric Jarvies > To: Licensing and other legal discussions. > Sent: Tue, 7 September, 2010 19:52:22 > Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data... > > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > >> On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > > > >>> Also, as more data sets are opening up it is possible that Map Maker > >>> and OSM editors are using similar sources. > >> > >> Yes, I understand this and the context you are explaining it in. But how >does this apply to the edit I made to the OSM data? This edit was not some >recently made available source that was provided to OSM, Google, and others, >it >was a just a newbee screw up by yours truly, that resulted in a very unique >and >deliberate edit to an existing OSM coastline, that subsequently ended up in >Google's data, as is clearly(to me) being rendered now. I was just shocked >to >see that Google had inherited my screwed up edit of an existing OSM >coastline, >and that shock turned into interest, which is why I asked here if they are >now >using OSM data. In short, there really is no other 'similar source' in this >case... they either got the coastline/way directly from OSM, or got it from >someone else who got it directly from OSM. > > > > Dear Eric, > > > > It is hard for me to say what happened. What you describe above does > > make it sound like a GMM contributor used OSM as a source after your > > edit, but before you repaired it. If I haven't overlooked something; > > perhaps a GMM contributor made the same newbee mistake? > > Well, this is what aroused my interest... after the initial shock of seeing > my >mistake for a second time... first on OSM, and then now on Google >MapMaker(I'm >talking a considerable stretch of coastline), I then looked at what is and >what >is not possible to edit on Google MapMaker... and coastlines are NOT possible >to edit by contributors, or at least my user account will not allow it. > > > And if there > > is no other innocent explanation; you didn't make the edit on GMM > > yourself did you? ;-) > > No, I have never contributed data to the MapMaker repo. > > > Then 80n's description above is correct. > > Infringement is much more likely to be a result of ignorance rather > > than malice. It is still infringement but it might best be resolved > > with a please and thank you than with a nasty-gram. > > I was merely curious if Google had started using OSM data, simply because I >was painfully reminded of that terrible coastline screw-up I made, that was >the >bane of my initial OSM editing experience(not knowing that the coastline is >not >rendered immediately/regularly). So apart from the initial shock of seeing >it >replicated on Google's MapMaker a week or two after the initial incident >occurred, I was just downright curious why it would be there, as I thought >Google did not use OSM data. So this was a curious fact finding mission >wrought from a screwed-up coastline editing experience... nothing more. > > > > > > > I do still recommend that you share the location and details with > > OSMers you trust with more experience than you have; you did describe > > yourself as a newbee. > > I emailed the way to the email address you provided me previously, thank you. > > > > > > You might, as 80n described, decide to pursue this with GMM yourself. > > I'd probably try to reach the GMM contributor who made that edit, > > I could not find indication of this... I was not allowed to edit the GMM >coastline whilst logged into Google... perhaps other users are able to do >so... >but I doubt it. > > > if > > that information is available. Or, you may decide to ask somebody > > else in the community to do that for you. Perhaps somebody at your > > local OSM meetups, mapping parties or local chapter. > > I am my local chapter :( > > > Or you can > > report t
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Eric Jarvies wrote: >> On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > >>> Also, as more data sets are opening up it is possible that Map Maker >>> and OSM editors are using similar sources. >> >> Yes, I understand this and the context you are explaining it in. But how >> does this apply to the edit I made to the OSM data? This edit was not some >> recently made available source that was provided to OSM, Google, and others, >> it was a just a newbee screw up by yours truly, that resulted in a very >> unique and deliberate edit to an existing OSM coastline, that subsequently >> ended up in Google's data, as is clearly(to me) being rendered now. I was >> just shocked to see that Google had inherited my screwed up edit of an >> existing OSM coastline, and that shock turned into interest, which is why I >> asked here if they are now using OSM data. In short, there really is no >> other 'similar source' in this case... they either got the coastline/way >> directly from OSM, or got it from someone else who got it directly from OSM. > > Dear Eric, > > It is hard for me to say what happened. What you describe above does > make it sound like a GMM contributor used OSM as a source after your > edit, but before you repaired it. If I haven't overlooked something; > perhaps a GMM contributor made the same newbee mistake? Well, this is what aroused my interest... after the initial shock of seeing my mistake for a second time... first on OSM, and then now on Google MapMaker(I'm talking a considerable stretch of coastline), I then looked at what is and what is not possible to edit on Google MapMaker... and coastlines are NOT possible to edit by contributors, or at least my user account will not allow it. > And if there > is no other innocent explanation; you didn't make the edit on GMM > yourself did you? ;-) No, I have never contributed data to the MapMaker repo. > Then 80n's description above is correct. > Infringement is much more likely to be a result of ignorance rather > than malice. It is still infringement but it might best be resolved > with a please and thank you than with a nasty-gram. I was merely curious if Google had started using OSM data, simply because I was painfully reminded of that terrible coastline screw-up I made, that was the bane of my initial OSM editing experience(not knowing that the coastline is not rendered immediately/regularly). So apart from the initial shock of seeing it replicated on Google's MapMaker a week or two after the initial incident occurred, I was just downright curious why it would be there, as I thought Google did not use OSM data. So this was a curious fact finding mission wrought from a screwed-up coastline editing experience... nothing more. > > I do still recommend that you share the location and details with > OSMers you trust with more experience than you have; you did describe > yourself as a newbee. I emailed the way to the email address you provided me previously, thank you. > > You might, as 80n described, decide to pursue this with GMM yourself. > I'd probably try to reach the GMM contributor who made that edit, I could not find indication of this... I was not allowed to edit the GMM coastline whilst logged into Google... perhaps other users are able to do so... but I doubt it. > if > that information is available. Or, you may decide to ask somebody > else in the community to do that for you. Perhaps somebody at your > local OSM meetups, mapping parties or local chapter. I am my local chapter :( > Or you can > report this to the Data Working Group though they prefer if you have > made some initial attempt at contact on your own. No, this was not my objective... I merely wanted to know if GMM was now an OSM user, and if not, I just wanted folks at OSM to be made aware, if for no other reason then to be made aware. > If GMM does not > provide a method to contact editors, the idea of contacting Google Map > Mapker as a whole does sound a bit daunting. I have contacts at Google, specifically in their data acquisitions department, as I've had dealings with them in the past pertaining to my own data, so contact would not be difficult, but as stated, that was not my intention. > > I think your point about not publishing the location is worth > considering. In past, other contributors have provided links to > examples. That might make an interesting discussion on this list > outside of the context of this specific edit. > In what sense? > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Richard Weait wrote: >> Also, as more data sets are opening up it is possible that Map Maker >> and OSM editors are using similar sources. > > Yes, I understand this and the context you are explaining it in. But how > does this apply to the edit I made to the OSM data? This edit was not some > recently made available source that was provided to OSM, Google, and others, > it was a just a newbee screw up by yours truly, that resulted in a very > unique and deliberate edit to an existing OSM coastline, that subsequently > ended up in Google's data, as is clearly(to me) being rendered now. I was > just shocked to see that Google had inherited my screwed up edit of an > existing OSM coastline, and that shock turned into interest, which is why I > asked here if they are now using OSM data. In short, there really is no > other 'similar source' in this case... they either got the coastline/way > directly from OSM, or got it from someone else who got it directly from OSM. Dear Eric, It is hard for me to say what happened. What you describe above does make it sound like a GMM contributor used OSM as a source after your edit, but before you repaired it. If I haven't overlooked something; perhaps a GMM contributor made the same newbee mistake? And if there is no other innocent explanation; you didn't make the edit on GMM yourself did you? ;-) Then 80n's description above is correct. Infringement is much more likely to be a result of ignorance rather than malice. It is still infringement but it might best be resolved with a please and thank you than with a nasty-gram. I do still recommend that you share the location and details with OSMers you trust with more experience than you have; you did describe yourself as a newbee. You might, as 80n described, decide to pursue this with GMM yourself. I'd probably try to reach the GMM contributor who made that edit, if that information is available. Or, you may decide to ask somebody else in the community to do that for you. Perhaps somebody at your local OSM meetups, mapping parties or local chapter. Or you can report this to the Data Working Group though they prefer if you have made some initial attempt at contact on your own. If GMM does not provide a method to contact editors, the idea of contacting Google Map Mapker as a whole does sound a bit daunting. I think your point about not publishing the location is worth considering. In past, other contributors have provided links to examples. That might make an interesting discussion on this list outside of the context of this specific edit. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Eric Jarvies wrote: >> Well, by nature of the edit I made to that way/coastline, I am 99.9% certain >> it's OSM data being rendered over at the Google MapMaker site. I looked on >> their license page and did not find mention of OSM, but perhaps I missed it. >> If you all concur that I should share this information on this list, then I >> will... I will provide you with the way number, and whomever has the >> experience going back to a previous version/changeset, will need to do so, >> in order to match the OSM rendering with what is currently being rendered >> over at Google MapMaker. > > You might send the way number to Grant and Emilie, or normally to the > Data Working Group d...@osmfoundation.org, just so you can have a few > people check your work. Another set of eyes can be helpful. Ok, thank you. > > Also, as more data sets are opening up it is possible that Map Maker > and OSM editors are using similar sources. Yes, I understand this and the context you are explaining it in. But how does this apply to the edit I made to the OSM data? This edit was not some recently made available source that was provided to OSM, Google, and others, it was a just a newbee screw up by yours truly, that resulted in a very unique and deliberate edit to an existing OSM coastline, that subsequently ended up in Google's data, as is clearly(to me) being rendered now. I was just shocked to see that Google had inherited my screwed up edit of an existing OSM coastline, and that shock turned into interest, which is why I asked here if they are now using OSM data. In short, there really is no other 'similar source' in this case... they either got the coastline/way directly from OSM, or got it from someone else who got it directly from OSM. Eric > > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > Well, by nature of the edit I made to that way/coastline, I am 99.9% certain > it's OSM data being rendered over at the Google MapMaker site. I looked on > their license page and did not find mention of OSM, but perhaps I missed it. > If you all concur that I should share this information on this list, then I > will... I will provide you with the way number, and whomever has the > experience going back to a previous version/changeset, will need to do so, in > order to match the OSM rendering with what is currently being rendered over > at Google MapMaker. You might send the way number to Grant and Emilie, or normally to the Data Working Group d...@osmfoundation.org, just so you can have a few people check your work. Another set of eyes can be helpful. Also, as more data sets are opening up it is possible that Map Maker and OSM editors are using similar sources. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
Eric It is your content and your copyright. If you believe that Google or anyone else is infringing your copyright then it is your right to take up this issue with them directly. Most infringments are accidental and if you approach the infringer in a helpful and sympathetic way then they will usually react swiftly and be very apologetic. There was a very recent case with Waze which was dealt with very promptly and to everyone's satisfaction: http://www.waze.com/blog/thanks-and-huge-apology-to-the-openstreetmap-community/ In the first instance it is often better to deal with these things off-list rather than naming the possible offender in public. OSMF's role is to provide support to contributors, and you may find that they can help you deal with the issue. The Data Working Group is the team that deals with this kind of thing: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Groups#Data_Working_Group They are well connected and can probably help you contact the correct people within Google. I think we'd all love Google to use OSM content and they are welcome to do so as long they provide the correct attribution. This is probably the right spirit in which to approach them initially. 80n On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Eric Jarvies wrote: > Perhaps someone who knows can answer my original question... does Google > MapMaker use(according to the OSM license) OSM data? If not, then perhaps > the person/people whom typically deal with these matters can communicate > with me accordingly, so I may provide information and explain the situation > in detail, so it may be addressed pragmatically, either validating or > invalidating it prior to the entire list being pointed to(alerted of) the > suspected problem. > > I say this because I do not have the -OSM- experience that is necessary to > validate what I suspect, as it relates to changesets, and being able to go > back a few versions and render the specific version in question, so it may > be compared with what is being used over at Google MapMaker. I am 99.9% > certain that the coastline that is being displayed over there on Google > MapMaker is in fact one in the same as one of my screwed-up iterations, > which has subsequently been changed and hopefully repaired(but not yet > rendered by OSM... tick tock tick tock). The very nature of the way I > changed/edited the coastline was deliberately inaccurate and very unique, > meaning it did not follow the real coastline, because at the time I was > still trying to hunt down a problem, a problem that I later discovered did > not really exist(I just needed to wait days/weeks for OSM to render the > coastline), and so I arranged the coastline in a very deliberate way so that > I would see the change when it rendered, as I was trying to substantiate if > my changes were actually occurring/working or not. > > Thus, anyone who is capable of going back to a previous version in this > particular way/changeset and rendering it, will be able to render the exact > same coastline that is being displayed over at Google MapMaker. > > Is this how this type of issue is normally dealt with? > > Eric > > > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 8:00 AM, Emilie Laffray wrote: > > > > On 7 September 2010 14:51, Eric Jarvies wrote: > >> Grant, >> >> Yes, I can point to an example... but prior to bringing attention to the >> matter/area, I would instead prefer to monitor it and see what else appears. >> The coastline, akaik, is not editable by users/contributors, which is why I >> asked if Google is now using OSM data. >> >> > I think that even an example would be nice, so more people can have a look > at what is happening. It would be best if we realized what is going on > sooner rather than later. > > Emilie Laffray > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > > > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On Sep 7, 2010, at 9:36 AM, Richard Weait wrote: > Dear Eric, > > Your replies from Grant (on the server team) and Emilie (OSMF Board > member) are from people who would normally deal with these issues. > ;-) Ok, thank your for clarifying that. > > As far as I know Map Maker does not use OSM data, but no consumer of > OSM data is obliged to tell OSM that they are using OSM data. They > are only obliged to meet their obligations to the OSM license. So > currently, consumers of OSM data would be obliged to have a credit for > OSM data and a notification of CC-By-SA, and in most cases a link to > both of those would be appropriate as well. > Well, by nature of the edit I made to that way/coastline, I am 99.9% certain it's OSM data being rendered over at the Google MapMaker site. I looked on their license page and did not find mention of OSM, but perhaps I missed it. If you all concur that I should share this information on this list, then I will... I will provide you with the way number, and whomever has the experience going back to a previous version/changeset, will need to do so, in order to match the OSM rendering with what is currently being rendered over at Google MapMaker. Eric > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
Dear Eric, Your replies from Grant (on the server team) and Emilie (OSMF Board member) are from people who would normally deal with these issues. ;-) As far as I know Map Maker does not use OSM data, but no consumer of OSM data is obliged to tell OSM that they are using OSM data. They are only obliged to meet their obligations to the OSM license. So currently, consumers of OSM data would be obliged to have a credit for OSM data and a notification of CC-By-SA, and in most cases a link to both of those would be appropriate as well. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
Perhaps someone who knows can answer my original question... does Google MapMaker use(according to the OSM license) OSM data? If not, then perhaps the person/people whom typically deal with these matters can communicate with me accordingly, so I may provide information and explain the situation in detail, so it may be addressed pragmatically, either validating or invalidating it prior to the entire list being pointed to(alerted of) the suspected problem. I say this because I do not have the -OSM- experience that is necessary to validate what I suspect, as it relates to changesets, and being able to go back a few versions and render the specific version in question, so it may be compared with what is being used over at Google MapMaker. I am 99.9% certain that the coastline that is being displayed over there on Google MapMaker is in fact one in the same as one of my screwed-up iterations, which has subsequently been changed and hopefully repaired(but not yet rendered by OSM... tick tock tick tock). The very nature of the way I changed/edited the coastline was deliberately inaccurate and very unique, meaning it did not follow the real coastline, because at the time I was still trying to hunt down a problem, a problem that I later discovered did not really exist(I just needed to wait days/weeks for OSM to render the coastline), and so I arranged the coastline in a very deliberate way so that I would see the change when it rendered, as I was trying to substantiate if my changes were actually occurring/working or not. Thus, anyone who is capable of going back to a previous version in this particular way/changeset and rendering it, will be able to render the exact same coastline that is being displayed over at Google MapMaker. Is this how this type of issue is normally dealt with? Eric On Sep 7, 2010, at 8:00 AM, Emilie Laffray wrote: > > > On 7 September 2010 14:51, Eric Jarvies wrote: > Grant, > > Yes, I can point to an example... but prior to bringing attention to the > matter/area, I would instead prefer to monitor it and see what else appears. > The coastline, akaik, is not editable by users/contributors, which is why I > asked if Google is now using OSM data. > > > I think that even an example would be nice, so more people can have a look at > what is happening. It would be best if we realized what is going on sooner > rather than later. > > Emilie Laffray > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On 7 September 2010 14:51, Eric Jarvies wrote: > Grant, > > Yes, I can point to an example... but prior to bringing attention to the > matter/area, I would instead prefer to monitor it and see what else appears. > The coastline, akaik, is not editable by users/contributors, which is why I > asked if Google is now using OSM data. > > I think that even an example would be nice, so more people can have a look at what is happening. It would be best if we realized what is going on sooner rather than later. Emilie Laffray ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
Grant, Yes, I can point to an example... but prior to bringing attention to the matter/area, I would instead prefer to monitor it and see what else appears. The coastline, akaik, is not editable by users/contributors, which is why I asked if Google is now using OSM data. Eric On Sep 7, 2010, at 6:16 AM, Grant Slater wrote: > On 7 September 2010 13:12, Eric Jarvies wrote: >> >> Is Google Maps(MapMaker) now starting to use OSM data? I've been adding a >> lot of data to OSM this past month, and have seen that data also appearing >> on Google Maps. Most blatant is a screw-up I made to the coastline in my >> area... Google now has it too :-) >> > > Can you point to an example? > > / Grant > > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
On 7 September 2010 13:12, Eric Jarvies wrote: > > Is Google Maps(MapMaker) now starting to use OSM data? I've been adding a > lot of data to OSM this past month, and have seen that data also appearing on > Google Maps. Most blatant is a screw-up I made to the coastline in my > area... Google now has it too :-) > Can you point to an example? / Grant ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Google MapMaker and OSM data...
Hello, Is Google Maps(MapMaker) now starting to use OSM data? I've been adding a lot of data to OSM this past month, and have seen that data also appearing on Google Maps. Most blatant is a screw-up I made to the coastline in my area... Google now has it too :-) Thanks, Eric Jarvies ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
