[L-I] : [L-I] To moderators from Russia - to Mark Jones
I am sure we'd all want to welcome Svetlana to this list. It is very good to establish cordial relations with Russian leftist and working class organisations. I hope that she will play an active part in our discussions. When comrades honestly and sincerely strive to understand each other's positions, and diligently seek to explain and analyse differences, much can be achieved. But to begin by attacking the moderators is not helpful. Rather than begin with a discussion of personalities and of list policy, I think it would be more useful if Svetlana informed the list about the activities of her organisation in Samara, and about its viewpoint and arguments, and also if she asks any questions she has about the political orientations etc of other people on the list. Then we can hope to find some common ground, or anyway to understand one another better. Mark Dear Mark! Certainly I would like to take an active part in your discussions. My comrades and I see that your list pays much attention to Russia and this fact makes us happy. We was glad that among paticipants of your list we have been seeing the comrades who give great help to the Russian left and workers' movement such as Vladimir Bilenkin and Steve Mayers. True, Steve`s letters do not appear in the list in the last days, probably he is too busy. I have told the list about activity of my organization quite in detail, in my opinion. I could also expound my political views and my comrade`s view-points to subjects discussed in your list but I am not sure that the words which do not belong to me will not be attributed to me and I shall not be dumped after sending my first two debatable messages to the list, as this happened with our comrade Vladimir Bilenkin. You consider incorrect that I began with discussion of personalities. But I am going to communicate not with robots in your list but with the people, and it is very important for me to know what human streaks have the people which have created this list and participate in it. I believe, it is very important that there were comradely, democratic relations during our common work for communism in this list or else honest and fruitful polemics will be impossible. I do not deny, that your list should have and carry out its editorial policy and, as on any list, and I consider necessary the expelling from any list those members who debate dishonestly or insult other participants of discussion. But in Vladimir Bilenkin`s case there were no such basis. The attribution of another`s words to Vladimir took place. I have shown it in my answer to Louis Project which I have just sent. Read it, please. And I hope that this annoying situation will be remedied by you and your unbiassed colleagues-moderators. Dear Mark, you wrote that "It is very good to establish cordial relations with Russian leftist and working class organisations". We also would like to establish such relations with Western leftists and organizations of Western working class. But unfortunately we do not see, how it is possible, while our comrade Vladimir is still striked off the Leninist-international list. And I do not doubt, that you and other moderators of the list consider that it is impossible to expell from the list those members whose political views contradict their own ones or veiw-points of majority of the participants of discussion. I am sure that you are agree that freedom of expression of judgements is the first necessary condition for any fruitful polemics, especially marxist. That`s why we suppose that elemination of Vladimir Bilenkin from the list was an outcome of misunderstanding and we repeat our request to remedy occured and to subscribe his address to your list. Best wishes, Svetlana Baiborodova ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] : [L-I] To moderators from Russia - to Louis Proyect
I and my comrades in Russia want to read Vladimir Bilenkin`s point of view on problems disturbing us in living discussion with all other participants of your list. I hope, you will heed our request and correct the situation. Comradely, Svetlana Baiborodova I think Vladimir was thrown off not for what he wrote about Russia, but what he wrote about the USA: "The big problem in Florida was that democratic operatives gave voters the wrong information. They bused illiterate blacks to the polls and told them to punch a hole on every page - forgetting there were 2 pages of presidential candidates. . . .The reasons the dems didn't want to join in on the black complaints was simple. Black voting in Florida was up 65%. A full 16% of all votes cast in Florida were cast by black voters. Yet, only 13% of Florida's population is black. It's almost impossible to make a claim that they were disenfranchised, when they were actually overrepresented at the polls." This business about busing "illiterate blacks to the polls" is racist. Frankly, I was shocked to read this. I haven't seen anything Vladimir has written in probably 5 years when he was one of the most disruptive Trotskyists in cyberspace. I am afraid he has shifted far to the right. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org Louis, Vladimir is an internationalist. I know this exactly. You haven't seen anything written by Vladimir in nearly 5 last years but I have read his recent articles on different subjects including problems of nationalism and I know his practical activity in development of the working class organizations in Russia. Vladimir is a genuine communist, fighting against any chauvinizm, depend upon me. I have to express my view-point to an aspect important for the list, to my mind. Firstly, when I have met with this case on this list, I have supposed that it is a contingency, misunderstanding. But the further, the more I wonder and become perplexed. You wrote that Vladimir was thrown off for he wrote the following: "The big problem in Florida was that democratic operatives gave voters the wrong information. They bused illiterate blacks to the polls and told them to punch a hole on every page - forgetting there were 2 pages of presidential candidates. . . ." etc. But you have not seen, that the indicated phrase belongs not to Vladimir but to his friend, whose letter was published on the Leninist-International list. Look once again at Vladimir Bilenkin`s letter "Re: [L-I] Well, what the heck?", January 14, from which you have taken this fragment. He wrote: "I forwarded this article to a friend of mine who took the mess in Florida rather close to heart and researched it. ... Anyway, THIS IS WHAT MY FRIEND, who has a more than healthy doze of scepticism about both right and left, WROTE TO ME." Or I should not trust my own eyes? How could this fact not be noticed by you? I am in bewilderment and do not understand what is this. May be this is any eyelight disease? In that case see a doctor, please. Moreover, I think the fact that anybody publishes some article on the list for discussion does not signify that the sender agrees with position of the article. As I see, Vladimir forwarded his pal`s letter with debatable vew-point because Vladimir consider that the class method of approach should include the analysis of national aspects in research of all social problems. And I agree entirely with him. Otherwise we shall have only poor, abstract substitute of the class method of approach. May be I am mistaken because of my imperfect English but, in my opinion, the fraze from that letter "They bused illiterate blacks to the polls ", means not that the author considers that all Negro race is illiterate, but the indication to the fact that the operatives from the democratic party used dishonestly the illiterate, retarded representatives of this race at the elections. Whether the racial oppression in USA is already overcome completely and there is no more retarded blacks? I can not know whether the fact indicated in the letter took place or not in reality, but if it really has taken place it is incorrect to ignore it because the fact of manipulation by the backward part of the black population by various political forces is manifestation of racism too, in my opinion. And the ignoring of this fact, refusal of discussion of it because of fear that it will be recognized as racism, - is not it capitulation to racism? And even if Vladimir`s friend is mistaken and Tony Abdo is right writing: "I think that you have made some pretty wild comments here..." (attributing it by mistake to Vladimir Bilenkin), - why you, comrade Luois, and your colleagues - moderators deprive me and my comrades of a possibility to learn what happens in USA in reality? Tony has presented arguments against an expressed hypothesis, he has explained why "the ide
[L-I] To Mark Jones - : [L-I] To moderators from Russia
I am sure we'd all want to welcome Svetlana to this list. It is very good to establish cordial relations with Russian leftist and working class organisations. I hope that she will play an active part in our discussions. When comrades honestly and sincerely strive to understand each other's positions, and diligently seek to explain and analyse differences, much can be achieved. But to begin by attacking the moderators is not helpful. Rather than begin with a discussion of personalities and of list policy, I think it would be more useful if Svetlana informed the list about the activities of her organisation in Samara, and about its viewpoint and arguments, and also if she asks any questions she has about the political orientations etc of other people on the list. Then we can hope to find some common ground, or anyway to understand one another better. Mark Dear Mark! Certainly I would like to take an active part in your discussions. My comrades and I see that your list pays much attention to Russia and this fact makes us happy. We was glad that among paticipants of your list we have been seeing the comrades who give great help to the Russian left and workers' movement such as Vladimir Bilenkin and Steve Mayers. True, Steve`s letters do not appear in the list in the last days, probably he is too busy. I have told the list about activity of my organization quite in detail, in my opinion. I could also expound my political views and my comrade`s view-points to subjects discussed in your list but I am not sure that the words which do not belong to me will not be attributed to me and I shall not be dumped after sending my first two debatable messages to the list, as this happened with our comrade Vladimir Bilenkin. You consider incorrect that I began with discussion of personalities. But I am going to communicate not with robots in your list but with the people, and it is very important for me to know what human streaks have the people which have created this list and participate in it. I believe, it is very important that there were comradely, democratic relations during our common work for communism in this list or else honest and fruitful polemics will be impossible. I do not deny, that your list should have and carry out its editorial policy and, as on any list, and I consider necessary the expelling from any list those members who debate dishonestly or insult other participants of discussion. But in Vladimir Bilenkin`s case there were no such basis. The attribution of another`s words to Vladimir took place. I have shown it in my answer to Louis Project which I have just sent. Read it, please. And I hope that this annoying situation will be remedied by you and your unbiassed colleagues-moderators. Dear Mark, you wrote that "It is very good to establish cordial relations with Russian leftist and working class organisations". We also would like to establish such relations with Western leftists and organizations of Western working class. But unfortunately we do not see, how it is possible, while our comrade Vladimir is still striked off the Leninist-international list. And I do not doubt, that you and other moderators of the list consider that it is impossible to expell from the list those members whose political views contradict their own ones or veiw-points of majority of the participants of discussion. I am sure that you are agree that freedom of expression of judgements is the first necessary condition for any fruitful polemics, especially marxist. That`s why we suppose that elemination of Vladimir Bilenkin from the list was an outcome of misunderstanding and we repeat our request to remedy occured and to subscribe his address to your list. Best wishes, Svetlana Baiborodova ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] : [L-I] Re: [L-I] : [L-I] To moderators from Russia - to Louis Proyect
Svetlana, neither Louis or Mark are moderators here. I hope you stay, but Bilenkin is not- EVER- welcome here. I hope that can be clear. No Myers, no Bilenkin. Only one Jones. Macdonald Stainsby, Co-Moderator Oh, I am sorry for my mistake. It was found that you are the boss of this list. I hope that I speak clear too. If no Bilenkin - no me and no anyone of my Russian comrade. Only you. And Jones. Svetlana ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
[L-I] : [L-I] Re:Svetlana to Moderation team
I like you Tony. But it ain't gonna happen. The mistake was waiting so long that all of these characters got comfortable. Beyond that, as far as Bilenkin goes, he was only partially removed because of his endorsement of racist filth against US Blacks. I am a co-moderator. Two women- Yoshie Furuhashi and Mine Aysen Doyran- are my co-moderators. I speak clearly because I already know they agree to these points and I merely received your message first. Bilenkin was dumped "unanimously" Oh, it is found that not only Louis Proyect has this strange "eyelight defect"! It is collective disease. I am a physician by my first profession but I did not meet such strange case before... It looks like infection. A bad case. And what if it is contagious for other members of the list?! What can I advise them? The only remedy to prevent spreading of infection is isolation of contagion... And as to you, Macdonald, your "ÓÏ-moderators", Proyect, Jones - unfortunetely I can not help you. And any oculist cannot. Dishonesty is uncurable. I go away, be happy! Svetlana Baiborodova ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] To moderators from Russia - Activity of the Workers Trade Union Defense
("Defense" is a member of it). Picketing and meetings in large
cities took placed, the trade union of the dockers has carried out
ten-minute stopping of work in all sea ports of Russia.
The consideration of Labour Cod drafts by the State Duma was postponed since
December 21, 2000 for March, 2001. More difficult struggle is in store.
Therefore international solidarity with Russian workers, international
pressure on Russian authorities is very important for our struggle.
As to Samara, our organization of trade union "Defense of labour" with my
personal participation organized strike with a demand of payment of the
salary delayed on nine months at the aerodrome of airplan factory. The
workers and engineers redfused to fulfil takeoff and landing of airplanes
despite of threats of using of police against them and have been blocking a
take-off and landing band to not permit to break the strike. It ended with
payment of money.
At the Samara metal plant we had been preventing for half a year mass
dismissal of 1000 workers by means of meetings, picketing of regional
authorities, cancellations of some illegal orders about lowering the salary.
"Defense" achieved the payment of fixed indemnification while dismissial.
On machine-building plant named after Tarasov the trade union "Defense"
realized several successful strikes with demand to pay delayed salary, now
workers get it regularly. At this factory we regularly distribute the
newspapares with materials, which should promote development of class
self-consciousness of the workers.
In Samara on May, 17, the Day of All-Russian action in defense of acting
Labour Code the trade union "Defense" organized meeting in industrial region
of Samara. 12000 copies of newspapers with revealing the antilabour policy
of government and bourgeois class nature of present state, which try to
abolish basic labour rights were distributed at large industrial plants in
Samara.
On December 1, we realized picketing of the office of the deputy of the
State Duma Mrs. Lekareva with demand to not vote for three antilabour drafts
of Labour Code. Models of these three drafts were burnt down in public.
Now I would like to ask Mark Johnes: please, tell us about your practical
activity in Great Britain, where you live, if I am not mistaken.
Best wishes,
Svetlana Baiborodova
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[L-I] : [L-I] To moderators from Russia - Activity of Trade Union Defense
("Defense" is a member of it). Picketing and meetings in large
cities took placed, the trade union of the dockers has carried out
ten-minute stopping of work in all sea ports of Russia.
The consideration of Labour Cod drafts by the State Duma was postponed since
December 21, 2000 for March, 2001. More difficult struggle is in store.
Therefore international solidarity with Russian workers, international
pressure on Russian authorities is very important for our struggle.
As to Samara, our organization of trade union "Defense of labour" with my
personal participation organized strike with a demand of payment of the
salary delayed on nine months at the aerodrome of airplan factory. The
workers and engineers redfused to fulfil takeoff and landing of airplanes
despite of threats of using of police against them and have been blocking a
take-off and landing band to not permit to break the strike. It ended with
payment of money.
At the Samara metal plant we had been preventing for half a year mass
dismissal of 1000 workers by means of meetings, picketing of regional
authorities, cancellations of some illegal orders about lowering the salary.
"Defense" achieved the payment of fixed indemnification while dismissial.
On machine-building plant named after Tarasov the trade union "Defense"
realized several successful strikes with demand to pay delayed salary, now
workers get it regularly. At this factory we regularly distribute the
newspapares with materials, which should promote development of class
self-consciousness of the workers.
In Samara on May, 17, the Day of All-Russian action in defense of acting
Labour Code the trade union "Defense" organized meeting in industrial region
of Samara. 12000 copies of newspapers with revealing the antilabour policy
of government and bourgeois class nature of present state, which try to
abolish basic labour rights were distributed at large industrial plants in
Samara.
On December 1, we realized picketing of the office of the deputy of the
State Duma Mrs. Lekareva with demand to not vote for three antilabour drafts
of Labour Code. Models of these three drafts were burnt down in public.
Now I would like to ask Mark Johnes: please, tell us about your practical
activity in Great Britain, where you live, if I am not mistaken.
Best wishes,
Svetlana Baiborodova
___
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[L-I] To moderators from Russia
Nestor, that was Vladimir Bilenkin. All four (when we were four) of us
dumped him.
in other words, he wont respond.
Macdonald
Dear comrade Macdonald Stainsby and other moderators!
My name is Svetlana Baiborodova. I am a chairwomen of Samara branch of
Russian Association of the Workers Trade Union "Defense of Labor", a member
of Coordinating Commitee of the All-Russian Campaign in Defense of Acting
Labor Code, an editor of weekly Left.ru ("Left Russia"): http://left.ru.
The Russian workers and leftist feel deficiency in knowledges of real
situation with Western working class, its class consciousness and its
ability to stand together with other detachments of the world working class,
in particular, with Russian workers in the future united front for
socialism, against imperialism. I believe it is very important for us to
know different opinions of Western leftists to this problem.
That`s why till today I have been reading with great interest articles and
letters have been posted on the Leninist-International list. We placed some
of them in our weekly "Left.ru" and now the Russian leftist have opportunity
to read your texts.
I have been interested very much in the discussion started on your list
about the imperial working class. Espessialy the point of veiw of comrade
Vladimir Bilenkin attracted my attention.
But now I have read that "he wont respond" because he is dumped.
Why did you do this? I am at a loss and surprised unpleasantly. Till today I
considered that we, the Russian leftists, should learn from our Western
comrades how to organize the broad and free discussion like on
Leninist-International list. Can it really be my mistake? Can you really
consider that dumping is one of means for search of truth? I do not want to
believe that it is so.
I and my comrades in Russia want to read Vladimir Bilenkin`s point of view
on problems disturbing us in living discussion with all other participants
of your list.
I hope, you will heed our request and correct the situation.
Comradely,
Svetlana Baiborodova
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