File management potential in Leo

[karhof21]

This topic was already raised in an old post [1]. I want to pick up that 
idea again.

Briefly, the idea is about using two tree panes, side-by-side, to perform 
basic file management operations, in the style of old two-pane file 
managers (like Norton Commander, or more recently the FAR file manager).
I guess the crucial question here is: can Leo support two tree panes at the 
same time?
If so, we are basically only one step away from having file management 
capabilities in Leo, potentially.

Given that Emacs has been adapted to do everything, and Leo is following 
pretty much the same path, why not to adapt Leo to serve as a basic file 
manager too? I am saying 'basic', thinking of the most basic functions, 
namely copying, moving, renaming and deleting. That's not asking much, I 
hope.

Anyone of the developers feels stimulated enough by this idea to pick up 
the challenge?

[1] 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/leo-editor/norton/leo-editor/dCRsE244dqQ/YjpvMZaXzRYJ

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Re: File management potential in Leo

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 1:10 AM,  wrote:

>
> Briefly, the idea is about using two tree panes, side-by-side, to perform
> basic file management operations
> ​...
> I guess the crucial question here is: can Leo support two tree panes at
> the same time?
>

​Leo's tree pane is, in essence, a view on a commander.  To do what you
want, a plugin would presumably create two hidden commanders that create
trees of nodes corresponding to files or folders.  This would not be a
small project, but it's certainly possible.

Given that Emacs has been adapted to do everything, and Leo is following
> pretty much the same path, why not to adapt Leo to serve as a basic file
> manager too?
>

​How important is something like this? A working plugin would answer that
question ;-)

Edward

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Re: File management potential in Leo

['Terry Brown' via leo-editor]

> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 1:10 AM,  wrote:
> 
> >
> > Briefly, the idea is about using two tree panes, side-by-side, to
> > perform basic file management operations
> > ​...
> > I guess the crucial question here is: can Leo support two tree
> > panes at the same time?

The simplest thing to do to assess such a system is to load two
outlines and then detach one, assuming the tabbed interface (right
click on the tab to detach).  You can use the free_layout system to
arrange the two windows so the trees are side by side, or just squash
the log and body panes in one window to make it tree only.

It should also be possible for the free layout system to steal a tree
from one tab and move it on to another tab, which has all sorts of
interesting possibilities.

BUT: https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor/issues/135

I just discovered inter-tree drag and drop broke on Friday the 13th,
Sep., 2013 :-/

Cheers -Terry

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Re: File management potential in Leo

[Don Dwiggins]

On 1/28/15 8:32 AM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor wrote:

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 1:10 AM,  wrote:


Briefly, the idea is about using two tree panes, side-by-side, to
perform basic file management operations
​...
I guess the crucial question here is: can Leo support two tree
panes at the same time?


Just to add a bit of weight to this: In the ancient PIM I use, and which 
I'm hoping to replace with Leo, you can have multiple "notepads", each a 
view on some part of an underlying structure. This allows me to have 
separate notepads for various aspects of my life and work, with the 
ability to "cross-reference" (clone) nodes to show up in multiple 
notepads where appropriate.  (Think "aspect-oriented" IM.)


(By the way, there's also a kind of "tagging" structure, supporting 
hierarchical tags.  Less important for my usage, but occasionally helpful.)



Don


The simplest thing to do to assess such a system is to load two
outlines and then detach one, assuming the tabbed interface (right
click on the tab to detach).  You can use the free_layout system to
arrange the two windows so the trees are side by side, or just squash
the log and body panes in one window to make it tree only.

It should also be possible for the free layout system to steal a tree
from one tab and move it on to another tab, which has all sorts of
interesting possibilities.

BUT: https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor/issues/135

I just discovered inter-tree drag and drop broke on Friday the 13th,
Sep., 2013 :-/

Cheers -Terry



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Re: File management potential in Leo

[gatesphere]

On 1/30/2015 2:18 PM, Don Dwiggins wrote:


Just to add a bit of weight to this: In the ancient PIM I use, and 
which I'm hoping to replace with Leo, you can have multiple 
"notepads", each a view on some part of an underlying structure. This 
allows me to have separate notepads for various aspects of my life and 
work, with the ability to "cross-reference" (clone) nodes to show up 
in multiple notepads where appropriate.  (Think "aspect-oriented" IM.)
I may be mistaken, but have you tried the 'stickynotes' plugin?  It 
offers interesting abilities like this.  Try the 'tabula' command :)
(By the way, there's also a kind of "tagging" structure, supporting 
hierarchical tags.  Less important for my usage, but occasionally 
helpful.)


Also covered in a plugin: node-tags.py.  Just recently added support for 
hierarchical tagging via search wild-cards.  It works easily and I find 
it very useful.  I'm biased though, I wrote that plugin :p


Don

-->Jake

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Re: File management potential in Leo

[jkn]

On Friday, 30 January 2015 19:19:09 UTC, Don Dwiggins wrote:
>
>  On 1/28/15 8:32 AM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor wrote:
>  
>  On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 1:10 AM,   wrote:
>
>
>  Briefly, the idea is about using two tree panes, side-by-side, to
> perform basic file management operations
> ​...
> I guess the crucial question here is: can Leo support two tree
> panes at the same time?
>
>   
> Just to add a bit of weight to this: In the ancient PIM I use, and which 
> I'm hoping to replace with Leo, you can have multiple "notepads", each a 
> view on some part of an underlying structure.  This allows me to have 
> separate notepads for various aspects of my life and work, with the ability 
> to "cross-reference" (clone) nodes to show up in multiple notepads where 
> appropriate.  (Think "aspect-oriented" IM.)
>
> (By the way, there's also a kind of "tagging" structure, supporting 
> hierarchical tags.  Less important for my usage, but occasionally helpful.)
>

Sounds like Ecco Pro ;-) (which I also use as well as Leo; haven't been 
able to be as fluent in Leo for some things...)

 J^n

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Re: File management potential in Leo

[Don Dwiggins]

Thanks for the pointers.  I haven't tried much of anything yet beyond 
learning my way around the default layout.  I'll record these for later 
reference, though.



Don

On 1/30/15 11:52 AM, gatesphere wrote:

On 1/30/2015 2:18 PM, Don Dwiggins wrote:


Just to add a bit of weight to this: In the ancient PIM I use, and 
which I'm hoping to replace with Leo, you can have multiple 
"notepads", each a view on some part of an underlying structure.  
This allows me to have separate notepads for various aspects of my 
life and work, with the ability to "cross-reference" (clone) nodes to 
show up in multiple notepads where appropriate.  (Think 
"aspect-oriented" IM.)
I may be mistaken, but have you tried the 'stickynotes' plugin? It 
offers interesting abilities like this.  Try the 'tabula' command :)
(By the way, there's also a kind of "tagging" structure, supporting 
hierarchical tags.  Less important for my usage, but occasionally 
helpful.)


Also covered in a plugin: node-tags.py.  Just recently added support 
for hierarchical tagging via search wild-cards.  It works easily and I 
find it very useful.  I'm biased though, I wrote that plugin :p


Don

-->Jake
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Re: File management potential in Leo

[Don Dwiggins]

On 1/30/15 11:53 AM, jkn wrote:


Sounds like Ecco Pro ;-) (which I also use as well as Leo; haven't 
been able to be as fluent in Leo for some things...)


Ahh, glad there's another "Ecconista" on board.  Having used Ecco for 20 
years, I'm anticipating a fairly long (re)learning curve, which I hope 
to mitigate somewhat by "Eccofying" what I can of the "front end" -- at 
least the basic keystrokes and mouse gestures to navigate and edit the 
tree structure.  Are you trying to move your Ecco data to Leo, as I am?  
Other than fluency, how's it going?


Generally, I plan to record my progress, the stumbling blocks, etc., to 
help smooth the way for other newbies and maybe guide further "user 
experience" improvements.



Don

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Re: File management potential in Leo

[Dufriz]

On Saturday, 31 January 2015 01:52:15 UTC, Don Dwiggins wrote:
>
>  On 1/30/15 11:53 AM, jkn wrote:
>  
>
> Sounds like Ecco Pro ;-) (which I also use as well as Leo; haven't been 
> able to be as fluent in Leo for some things...)
>  
>
> Ahh, glad there's another "Ecconista" on board.  Having used Ecco for 20 
> years, I'm anticipating a fairly long (re)learning curve, which I hope to 
> mitigate somewhat by "Eccofying" what I can of the "front end" -- at least 
> the basic keystrokes and mouse gestures to navigate and edit the tree 
> structure.  Are you trying to move your Ecco data to Leo, as I am?  Other 
> than fluency, how's it going?
>
> Generally, I plan to record my progress, the stumbling blocks, etc., to 
> help smooth the way for other newbies and maybe guide further "user 
> experience" improvements.
>
>
> Don
>


I am curious, could you please give a brief description of what Ecco is 
about? 

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Re: File management potential in Leo

[Don Dwiggins]

On 1/30/15 9:21 PM, Dufriz wrote:



I am curious, could you please give a brief description of what Ecco 
is about?


One place to start is an article I wrote a few years ago, focusing on 
Ecco's outline features: http://www.compusol.org/ecco/outlining.html.


As the article says, the basic unit of Ecco is the item, which can be 
text (including some rich text features) or an image.  You can think of 
it as a paragraph; a rough equivalent in Leo would be the node, except 
there's no distinction between headlinee and body.


Ecco has a concept of "folders", which is an unfortunate term, since it 
has nothing to do with Windows folders.  From a little reading about the 
emerging tagging plugin to Leo, I'd say Ecco folders are roughly 
equivalent to Leo hierarchical tags.  An item may be "in" (tagged with) 
a number of folders.  Folders can be of different types: simple text, 
number, checkmark (binary in or out), date, or pop-up list (choose one 
of many).  I've used these in my To-Do list to set priority (number), 
category (pop-up list), due by (date), etc.


A notepad is a kind of view that shows one or more items in a folder, 
and all its (their) children.  A notepad can also show one or more 
folders as columns at the right, displaying for each item/column the 
corresponding folder value.  In the article, there's an image of a 
notepad showing a sort of Gantt chart view, with dates and a timeline (I 
haven't used that, although I think it's related to the date type).  At 
the bottom is a row of tabs, allowing you to switch between notepads.  
There's also a way to get a side-by-side view of two notepads.  At the 
top is the usual menu bar, and a toolbar.  Any menu item can be placed 
on the toolbar, and the toolbar icons can be arranged as desired 
(similar to Firefox toolbars).


For my current use, the most important features are the outlining and 
notepads (where I keep different outlines for different purposes).  I've 
also made use of the Calendar view (a special-purpose "notepad" devoted 
to calendaring and date-related items) to keep a prioritized and 
categorized To-Do list.



HTH,
Don


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Re: File management potential in Leo

[Dufriz]

On Saturday, 31 January 2015 19:42:21 UTC, Don Dwiggins wrote:
>
>  On 1/30/15 9:21 PM, Dufriz wrote:
>  
>
>
> I am curious, could you please give a brief description of what Ecco is 
> about? 
>  
>
> One place to start is an article I wrote a few years ago, focusing on 
> Ecco's outline features: http://www.compusol.org/ecco/outlining.html.
>
> As the article says, the basic unit of Ecco is the item, which can be text 
> (including some rich text features) or an image.  You can think of it as a 
> paragraph; a rough equivalent in Leo would be the node, except there's no 
> distinction between headlinee and body.
>
> Ecco has a concept of "folders", which is an unfortunate term, since it 
> has nothing to do with Windows folders.  From a little reading about the 
> emerging tagging plugin to Leo, I'd say Ecco folders are roughly equivalent 
> to Leo hierarchical tags.  An item may be "in" (tagged with) a number of 
> folders.  Folders can be of different types: simple text, number, checkmark 
> (binary in or out), date, or pop-up list (choose one of many).  I've used 
> these in my To-Do list to set priority (number), category (pop-up list), 
> due by (date), etc.
>
> A notepad is a kind of view that shows one or more items in a folder, and 
> all its (their) children.  A notepad can also show one or more folders as 
> columns at the right, displaying for each item/column the corresponding 
> folder value.  In the article, there's an image of a notepad showing a sort 
> of Gantt chart view, with dates and a timeline (I haven't used that, 
> although I think it's related to the date type).  At the bottom is a row of 
> tabs, allowing you to switch between notepads.  There's also a way to get a 
> side-by-side view of two notepads.  At the top is the usual menu bar, and a 
> toolbar.  Any menu item can be placed on the toolbar, and the toolbar icons 
> can be arranged as desired (similar to Firefox toolbars).
>
> For my current use, the most important features are the outlining and 
> notepads (where I keep different outlines for different purposes).  I've 
> also made use of the Calendar view (a special-purpose "notepad" devoted to 
> calendaring and date-related items) to keep a prioritized and categorized 
> To-Do list.
>
>
> HTH,
> Don
>
>
Thanks, Don, for the link and for the explanation.

Do you think that some of Ecco's features could be implemented in Leo? 
Which ones would you suggest?

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Re: File management potential in Leo

[jkn]

Hi Don

On Saturday, 31 January 2015 01:52:15 UTC, Don Dwiggins wrote:
>
>  On 1/30/15 11:53 AM, jkn wrote:
>  
>
> Sounds like Ecco Pro ;-) (which I also use as well as Leo; haven't been 
> able to be as fluent in Leo for some things...)
>  
>
> Ahh, glad there's another "Ecconista" on board.  Having used Ecco for 20 
> years, I'm anticipating a fairly long (re)learning curve, which I hope to 
> mitigate somewhat by "Eccofying" what I can of the "front end" -- at least 
> the basic keystrokes and mouse gestures to navigate and edit the tree 
> structure.  Are you trying to move your Ecco data to Leo, as I am?  Other 
> than fluency, how's it going?
>
> Generally, I plan to record my progress, the stumbling blocks, etc., to 
> help smooth the way for other newbies and maybe guide further "user 
> experience" improvements
>

I'm probably not as fluent in Ecco as you are, even though I've used it no 
& off for some ten years or so (still well after support  stopped, IIRC). 
You probably know of the couple of Yahoo groups which keep it going via 
some very nice but 'tricky' extensions, Lua etc.

Working with both Ecco and Leo are part of my search for 'the perfect PIM 
tool'; sadly I don't seem to get time to get as fluent as I'd like in any 
of them, but these are the two I have stuck with. I need cross-platform 
support and now that Ecco runs decently under WINE I can run both under 
Win32 and LInux. I have previously posted here some of the key-bindings for 
Ecco as I think they are pretty sweet. The fact that Leo is (a) still being 
heavily developed ;-) and (b) written in Python, in which I am reasonably 
fluent, is a big plus for Leo. There's also at least a possibility that I 
can feed something back into the Leo community, which would be nice.

In my day job I have a lot of projects and I try to run a sort of GTD-style 
operation ... at least some sort of 'attention management system', one 
description of GTD that I quite like. I've so far not hit the sweet spot 
with either Leo or Ecco on this, but for sure it is part due to not 
spending the time. I'm starting writing a few Leo 'macros' (commands to 
parse my project workbook and do some reporting, which is nite. I am still 
much more fluent in Ecco to jsut type a whole seires of hierarchical points 
though, it's beautiful for that. I s'pose I ought to sepnd a little time 
trying to export from Ecco into Leo - that would be handy...

I think it would be good for others with some experience of Ecco to have 
input in this newsgroup - welcome abord!

Cheers
Jon N

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