Re: LFS 6.2-rc1 Released

2007-07-25 Thread TheOldFellow
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:53:17 -0500
Bruce Dubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The Linux From Scratch community is pleased to announce the first
 release candidate of LFS 6.3. Please see
 http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/6.3-rc1/chapter01/whatsnew.html
 for a complete list of new packages since the last release.
 
 This being a test release, we would appreciate you taking the time to
 try it out and report any bugs you find in it to the LFS development
 team at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Bruce Dubbs
 LFS 6.3 Release Manager


Shouldn't the subject be: LFS 6.3-rc1 Released ?
  ---

R.

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Re: LFS 6.2-rc1 Released

2007-07-25 Thread TheOldFellow
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:45:43 +0100
TheOldFellow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:53:17 -0500
 Bruce Dubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  The Linux From Scratch community is pleased to announce the first
  release candidate of LFS 6.3. Please see
  http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/6.3-rc1/chapter01/whatsnew.html
  for a complete list of new packages since the last release.
  
  This being a test release, we would appreciate you taking the time
  to try it out and report any bugs you find in it to the LFS
  development team at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  Bruce Dubbs
  LFS 6.3 Release Manager
 
 
 Shouldn't the subject be: LFS 6.3-rc1 Released ?
   ---
 
 R.
 
Sorry about the x-post I wasn't awake.
R.

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Re: x86_64 build method

2007-07-25 Thread Jeremy Huntwork
Jeremy Huntwork jhuntwork at linuxfromscratch.org writes:
 If I end up getting it sorted it out, I'll let you take a look before I 
 commit anything.

Manuel, I'm slowly beginning to understand how the HLFS render 'magic' works.
One question: would the 'condition' parameter be usable in an ENTITY
declaration? If it is, the differences between the books could be even more
minimal as we can set an entity for the target triplet and dynamic linker based
on the arch we are building.

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Re: x86_64 build method

2007-07-25 Thread Jeremy Huntwork
Jeremy Huntwork jhuntwork at linuxfromscratch.org writes:
 2) The commands to adjust the gcc spec file would have to change to 
 incorporate either dynamic linker. (Also, the current command in chapter 
 5's adjusting the toolchain, gcc -dumpspecs | sed 
 's at ^/lib/ld-linux.so.2 at /tools at g' \, assumes that we will find
the name 
 of the dynamic linker at the beginning of the line. In x86_64, this 
 isn't the case.

I think that at least the chapter6/readjusting phase could be made a little
simpler. On the x86_64 arch this command:

gcc -dumpspecs | sed \
-e 's@/tools/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2@/lib64/[EMAIL PROTECTED]' \

can easily become:

gcc -dumpspecs | sed -e 's@/tools@@g' \

I can't test this on x86 right atm... would anyone be able to verify that this
command would also work for x86?

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Re: lfs build-logs

2007-07-25 Thread Bruce Dubbs
Jeremy Huntwork wrote:
 Heya,
 
 Not sure how important this is for the rc books, but chapter 6 gcc tells
 the user to compare the gcc test results with those at this missing
 link:
 
 http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/build-logs/6.3-rc1
 
 Just want to make sure we don't forget to generate these for 6.3.

I don't have a copy of my logs, but I put in a stub for the logs.

Dan, can you add the logs for -rc1?

 Also, for a while now, the gcc dummy tests have not been totally
 accurate for one section. This command ends up producing a lot more
 output than the book says it will:
 
 grep -o '/usr/lib.*/crt[1in].* .*' dummy.log
 
 Should we refine the above command or the expectd output?

I remember that discussion.  I thought we fixed it.  I'll check into it
some more.

  -- Bruce
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Re: lfs build-logs

2007-07-25 Thread Dan Nicholson
On 7/25/07, Bruce Dubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jeremy Huntwork wrote:
  Heya,
 
  Not sure how important this is for the rc books, but chapter 6 gcc tells
  the user to compare the gcc test results with those at this missing
  link:
 
  http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/build-logs/6.3-rc1
 
  Just want to make sure we don't forget to generate these for 6.3.

 I don't have a copy of my logs, but I put in a stub for the logs.

 Dan, can you add the logs for -rc1?

I don't have them at the moment, and I'm not at my main build box.
Manuel is probably the best candidate since he can whip together a
jhalfs build rather quickly. He may even have logs from the other day
when he did a test build.

  Also, for a while now, the gcc dummy tests have not been totally
  accurate for one section. This command ends up producing a lot more
  output than the book says it will:
 
  grep -o '/usr/lib.*/crt[1in].* .*' dummy.log
 
  Should we refine the above command or the expectd output?

 I remember that discussion.  I thought we fixed it.  I'll check into it
 some more.

I recall that, but nothing ever came of it.

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Re: Gnome-2.18: Ejecting CD/DVD ROMs

2007-07-25 Thread Joe Ciccone
Randy McMurchy wrote:
 Bruce Dubbs wrote these words on 07/25/07 19:21 CST:

   
 Where is the `eject' program located?  It is not in BLFS; at least it is
 not in the index.
 

 It is not in BLFS. It is referenced a couple of times in the book as
 an optional component. It is truly CMMI. If I recall, it installs two
 little programs in /usr/bin (eject is one) and respective man pages
 and nothing else.

   
That's the one, it's an optional runtime dep of gnome virtual file 
system. You can find it at, 
http://ca.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/eject.html .
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Re: x86_64 build method

2007-07-25 Thread Jeremy Huntwork
Greg Schafer wrote:
 Anyhow, I still suspect there is a buglet involving MULTILIB_OSDIRNAMES
 somewhere in the GCC driver that needs to be accounted for in this
 `--disable-multilib' build method, but my brain hurts when trying to
 figure out all the twisty parts of gcc.c.

Thanks for your help and the bits you were able to confirm. And sorry 
for being a little bit testy on the other threads. At least we now have 
a definite working setup in the branch. Enough that I was able to build 
a 64-bit LiveCD based on it. (More on that shortly...)

Do you know off-hand if anything changes with gcc-4.2? Now that we have 
a separate branch for 6.3, trunk will be milestoned for 7.0 which means 
updating glibc and gcc.

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Re: x86_64 build method

2007-07-25 Thread Greg Schafer
Jeremy Huntwork wrote:

 Do you know off-hand if anything changes with gcc-4.2?

I've only tested x86 with GCC-4.2. I'll get to x86_64 and ppc when time
allows.

Regards
Greg
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Re: x86_64 build method

2007-07-25 Thread Greg Schafer
Jeremy Huntwork wrote:

 Jeremy Huntwork wrote:
 As an aside, the effects of their not having a /lib64 dir or symlink 
 seems to be that if I want to use a CLFS system as a host, I *must* use 
 their pure64 patch. I tried a build last night without using that patch 
 and just using --disable-multilib and appropriate symlinks and gcc pass1 
 failed when it got to stage1 of the bootstrap. I didn't get the 
 opportunity to add a /lib64 symlink and test it further...

Hmm, that's interesting. I didn't expect that.

 I suppose that if the above is correct this also means that your native 
 build expects a /lib64 dir or symlink on the host?
 
 This is confirmed. Adding /lib64 and /usr/lib64 symlinks to a CLFS host 
 enables gcc to bootstrap in pass1 without using the pure64 patch.

Initially I thought this part of the pure 64 patch:

--- gcc-4.2.0.orig/gcc/config/i386/t-linux642007-05-16 19:21:19.0 
-0400
+++ gcc-4.2.0/gcc/config/i386/t-linux64 2007-05-18 17:04:36.0 -0400
@@ -6,7 +6,7 @@
 
 MULTILIB_OPTIONS = m64/m32
 MULTILIB_DIRNAMES = 64 32 
-MULTILIB_OSDIRNAMES = ../lib64 ../lib
+MULTILIB_OSDIRNAMES = ../lib ../lib32

was why you weren't seeing the -L/lib/../lib64 stuff in your -v output. I
tried my build with just that part changed but I still ended up with
-L/lib/../lib appearing (which wasn't in your log). Therefore I don't
really know what is going on :-(  Tho' it does appear from what you say
that the host's /lib* layout does indeed play a role.

Ideally, the build method should work no matter what the /lib* layout on
the host is. But I must say, it does appear that any 64-bit host that is
missing /lib64 and /usr/lib64 is not kosher. After all, the facts are that
a) the lib64 stuff is the default config throughout the entire upstream
toolchain sources, b) the big distros all appear to use lib64 and c) lib64
is apparently mandated by the LSB (tho' it's a bit vague there judging
from my casual glance). But on the flipside, all of the above possibly
assumes a multilib setup? Dunno. It would be very interesting if all the
64-bit distros could be surveyed (ie: ls -ld /l*) to find out their /lib*
layout arrangements and whether they are multilib or pure 64.

Anyhow, I still suspect there is a buglet involving MULTILIB_OSDIRNAMES
somewhere in the GCC driver that needs to be accounted for in this
`--disable-multilib' build method, but my brain hurts when trying to
figure out all the twisty parts of gcc.c.

Regards
Greg
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Re: dbus-python error

2007-07-25 Thread Dan Nicholson
On 7/25/07, DJ Lucas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 /sources/dbus-python-0.82.0/install-sh -c -m 644 'types.py'
 '/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/dbus/types.py'
 'import site' failed; use -v for traceback
 Traceback (most recent call last):
   File string, line 2, in module
   File /usr/lib/python2.5/os.py, line 696, in module
 import copy_reg as _copy_reg
   File /usr/lib/python2.5/copy_reg.py, line 7, in module
 from types import ClassType as _ClassType
   File types.py, line 6, in module
 from _dbus_bindings import ObjectPath, ByteArray, Signature, Byte,\
 ImportError: No module named _dbus_bindings

It's working fine for me, although I have python-2.4 on this system.
Do you see any strange output from

python -v -c 'import _dbus_bindings'

For me, it shows it loads /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/_dbus_bindings.so

 FWIW, I have these python modules added (in order):
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] sources]# grep py /var/log/packages
 numpy-1.0.3
 pyorbit-2.14.3
 pygobject-2.12.3
 pycairo-1.4.0
 pygtk-2.10.4
 gnome-python-2.18.2
 gnome-python-desktop-2.18.0

I believe only dbus, python and dbus-glib should make a difference
when trying to load dbus-python.

Any strange output from

ldd /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/_dbus_bindings.so

Mine shows just linking to libdbus-1 and libc.

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Re: Gnome-2.18: Ejecting CD/DVD ROMs

2007-07-25 Thread Bruce Dubbs
Randy McMurchy wrote:
 Bruce Dubbs wrote these words on 07/25/07 19:21 CST:
 
 Where is the `eject' program located?  It is not in BLFS; at least it is
 not in the index.
 
 It is not in BLFS. It is referenced a couple of times in the book as
 an optional component. It is truly CMMI. If I recall, it installs two
 little programs in /usr/bin (eject is one) and respective man pages
 and nothing else.

Thanks, I see it now in HAL and gnome-vfs.  Both are kinda hidden down
below the usual dependencies sections.  I know it is a runtime
dependency.  I just never noticed this before.

  -- Bruce


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Re: x86_64 build method

2007-07-25 Thread Ken Moffat
On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 05:45:48PM -0400, Ivan Kabaivanov wrote:
 
 The only big issue is 32bit vs 64bit.  As someone already mentioned 
 previously 
 in this thread, there are almost nil benefits in building a 64bit  userland.  
 Very few applications can make use of being compiled 64bit.  So on ultrasparc 
 (64bit sparc) I've always done what the ultrasparc gurus have suggested for 
 many years, 32bit userland + 64bit cross compiler and 64bit kernel.  So if 
 you decide to support x86_64 you'll end up needing a cross compiler just for 
 the kernel.  Oh, and you don't actually need multilib glibc either if you go 
 with pure 32bit/pure 64bit userland.  Even though 64bit CPUs sold outnumber 
 32bit CPUs sold at the moment, the installed base of 32bit CPUs is far larger 
 than 64bit CPUs.  So I suggest LFS remain for the foreseeable future purely 
 32bit userland.
 
 For traditional 64-bit platforms, that is true.  On my own mac G5
(which needs a 64-bit kernel), the only real benefit of multilib is
that I get to run the testsuite on the kernel compiler.  OTOH, I get
to say this one goes up to 64 ;).  Having said that, I don't
actually notice that the 64-bit parts of my desktop (that would be
gimp, gnumeric, kde, the audio apps, and icewm on multilib) are
slower, nor do I notice that the 32-bit desktop as a whole is any
more responsive to e.g. changing the active window - in fact if
anything it *feels* slower with 32-bit userspace.  But enough of
traditional multilib 64-bit platforms, I'm not about to propose
that ppc64 be added to LFS ;-)

 For x86_64, the situation is very different.  The problem with
x86 is that it lacks registers, so gcc produces slow code.  With
x86_64, the code is faster.  A 64-bit kernel also appears to avoid
the problems of accessing large amounts of memory (I say appears
because none of my boards have more than 2GB of memory, and hardware
or bios limitations have been reported several times on lkml).  For
sure, it avoids the whole idea of highmem and bounce buffers in
kernelspace.

 I was hoping that this discussion would be deferred until after the
holiday season.  If not, I guess I'll have to come down in the 64
bits good, 32 bits less good camp for x86|x86_64.  The LFS family
of projects are all about learning and *building* the software.

 Building multilib can be an aggravation - the base system has to
build packages with libraries in both sizes (for LFS we could argue
about a few of them, but the problem is that *somebody* will find an
application that they want to build in the other size), and
inevitably that sometimes means wasting time by installing the
associated programs from the first size and then overwriting them
with the programs from the second size.  Sure, the base system is
not a big deal, it just takes longer.  The real multilib fun is in
BLFS - can you say gdk-pixbuf-query-loaders or gnome servers ?

 I'm tempted to suggest that this would be a good time to put ppc
(32-bit only) back into the book, but I'm not sure if there is a big
enough user base to make that worthwhile ?

ĸen
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Re: x86_64 build method

2007-07-25 Thread Ivan Kabaivanov
On Tuesday 24 July 2007 12:10, Matthew Burgess wrote:
 On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:59:39 -0400, Jeremy Huntwork 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Matthew Burgess wrote:
  On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:40:24 -0400, Jeremy Huntwork
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  The question is, do we want x86_64 to be a separate book, or simply
 
  roll
 
  these small changes into a conglomerate book with x86?
 
  I'd certainly prefer them to be in the same book,
 
  My biggest problem with this approach is that it gets to be a nightmare
  to edit. But, it is do-able.

 Hmm, that nightmare seems a bit extreme.  Certainly, for native x86-64,
 which is the only additional target we're contemplating at the moment,
 having 2 paragraphs (or small sections at the most) in the book surrounded
 in the relevant profiling syntax, doesn't seem too onerous to me.  Once in
 there, I doubt they'd need amending much - probably only if newer GCC
 versions change relevant portions of the specs file.

 Of course, if more targets are desired in the future, our approach may well
 need to change, but for now I think x86  x86-64 native builds capture the
 largest section of the LFS audience and anyone else can continue on to
 CLFS.

 Regards,

 Matt.


Speaking from experience building LFS on x86, ppc (32bit) and sparc (both 32 
and 64 bit), except for the dynamic linker and the boot loader, there is 
little to no difference in the instructions when building on different 
architectures.  So with minimal effort the book can be modified to apply 
universally.

The only big issue is 32bit vs 64bit.  As someone already mentioned previously 
in this thread, there are almost nil benefits in building a 64bit  userland.  
Very few applications can make use of being compiled 64bit.  So on ultrasparc 
(64bit sparc) I've always done what the ultrasparc gurus have suggested for 
many years, 32bit userland + 64bit cross compiler and 64bit kernel.  So if 
you decide to support x86_64 you'll end up needing a cross compiler just for 
the kernel.  Oh, and you don't actually need multilib glibc either if you go 
with pure 32bit/pure 64bit userland.  Even though 64bit CPUs sold outnumber 
32bit CPUs sold at the moment, the installed base of 32bit CPUs is far larger 
than 64bit CPUs.  So I suggest LFS remain for the foreseeable future purely 
32bit userland.

Ideally, parts of CLFS would be merged into LFS.  I never understood the need 
for CLFS.  Presumably it was for people like me who were building LFS on 
non-x86 architectures.  But CLFS is just complicating what is a rather simple 
procedure.  The only useful things in it are the extra packages needed for 
different architectures.  And the instructions to build a cross compiler.  
Everything else is just LFS.

I understand the reluctance of the LFS devs to explicitly support non-x86 
build as someone has to spend the time and effort to test the instructions on 
those other architectures.  But I still maintain that since you're discussing 
the inclusion of x86_64, you might as well consider modifying the 
instructions minimally so that, even if the book doesn't mention non-x86, the 
instructions will still work.  I'm talking about the dynamic linker and the 
sed command fixing the gcc specs.

IvanK.



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LFS LiveCD x86_64-6.3-min-pre1 Available

2007-07-25 Thread Jeremy Huntwork
Hello,

The LFS LiveCD team is pleased to announce a new 64bit-only CD. It is a 
minimal CD, meaning that it contains no X Windows System and dependent 
software nor any source packages. The LFS book that is included is based 
on the current development x86_64 branch. Be advised that as of now that 
book contains no instructions for building a boot loader, and some of 
the textual information may need adjusting. However, it will produce a 
working base system.

Since this is a pre-release, please help test the CD and report any bugs 
you may find to the livecd mailing list. The link to the primary mirror is:

ftp://ftp.lfs-matrix.net/pub/lfs-livecd/lfslivecd-x86_64-6.3-min-pre1.iso

There is also a secondary mirror:

ftp://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/lfs-livecd/lfslivecd-x86_64-6.3-min-pre1.iso

Enjoy!

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Re: Gnome-2.18: Ejecting CD/DVD ROMs

2007-07-25 Thread Dan Nicholson
On 7/25/07, Randy McMurchy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dan Nicholson wrote these words on 07/25/07 18:21 CST:

  I think you actually need the `eject' program. It's a runtime dep for
  HAL on Linux. It's called by /usr/lib/hal/hal-storage-eject, which is
  used by the Eject method.

 I get it now. Thought it's said in the gnome-mount docs that:

 The grand plan with gnome-mount is to get the appropriate GNOME
 software (such as gnome-volume-manager and gnome-vfs) to use this
 instead of invoking mount(1)/umount(1)/eject(1) / invoking methods on
 HAL directly.

 I got confused with that and thought that gnome-mount actually did
 the work. I suppose gnome-mount/gnome-volume-manager simply adds
 some wrappers to the HAL routines so the operations don't need
 root privileges. I must admit I'm weak in this area.

Right. `eject' is a pretty simple program. I would have actually
thought that hal would just have its own implementation, but I guess
not. Although, hal does do the unmounting before hand, so all eject is
doing is truly ejecting (opening/closing tray, etc.). I think part of
the reason for calling the eject binary is that it's implemented on
FreeBSD (Solaris too?), so there's some platform independence they
don't have to recreate.

 Dan, care to write a paragraph that describes the relationship
 between

 HAL - gnome-mount - gnome-volume-manager

I thought I understood it really well, but a little experiment I did a
month or so ago meant something wasn't working quite as I expected.
But, for the most part, I think I know how they work.

HAL knows about how to mount and umount filesystems. The idea is to
have HAL perform these actions since more policy and dynamic things
can be handled there than just calling mount(8).

At the next level, in order to make the call to HAL to do the mounting
there's another level of abstraction with gnome-mount. This does stuff
like handling per-user mount flags and mount points. It also handles
the actual dbus call to HAL. The idea here is that if something in the
desktop session wants a filesystem mounted, it should execute
gnome-mount to handle all the details. This happens in gnome-vfs and
gnome-volume-manager. An important point here is that it may still get
denied when calls the Mount method (or Eject method in this case) on
the HAL bus. There can be system wide HAL policy that says this
volume is not mountable or only these people can mount stuff.

In the desktop session, we have gnome-volume-manager, which calls out
to gnome-mount when signals show up on the HAL bus that a new volume
has been attached. You may notice in GNOME that if automounting fails
(for whatever reason), you can browse the Computer node and force a
mount. This is actually gnome-vfs calling out to gnome-mount.
gnome-volume-manager is sort of a glorified preference manager where
you can say what you want to happen in GNOME when certain hardware is
added. David Zeuthen (the HAL dev) has said that it should be called
gnome-hardware-manager since it does much more than just manage your
volume prefs.

So, in the typical case where you've just inserted a USB stick, the
process goes something like this:

- HAL receives hardware event, constructs some data on it, and sends
it out on the org.freedesktop.Hal bus

- gnome-volume-manager (g-v-m) sees this event on the bus. Since this
is a removable volume, it checks to see that the user wants to mount
them. The user does.

- g-v-m executes gnome-mount. gnome-mount checks the user's per-volume
prefs in GConf and builds up a method call for Hal. It calls the Mount
method on the org.freedesktop.Hal.Volume bus and checks for errors
returned from Hal.

- gnome-mount returns status to g-v-m. g-v-m carries out any other
actions it needs given success or failure of the mount.

A similar chain of events happens when you remove the USB stick. There
gnome-mount calling the Eject method causes /usr/bin/eject to be
called by HAL.

I thought gnome-mount also handled the case of reading fstab (there's
code for it). I got a permission denied error, which I know comes from
HAL, which assumes that if a volume is listed in fstab, mounting
shouldn't be handled by HAL. But I can see the code in gnome-mount
where it calls mount(8) instead of HAL in the event that it sees the
device or mount point in fstab. I didn't work for me, though.

 Right now the text on the gnome-mount page is wrong and we need to
 fix it.

I'm not sure what the best thing to say about its purpose is. I
suppose its main two virtues are that it hides mounting details from
the desktop (e.g. gnome-vfs) and that it integrates with the
system-wide policy defined in HAL.

That was probably way longer than it needed to be. I think I'm one of
those people that learns by saying (or typing) things, and that was
something of a refresher for me.

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Re: x86_64 build method

2007-07-25 Thread M.Canales.es
El Miércoles, 25 de Julio de 2007 19:10, Jeremy Huntwork escribió:

 Manuel, I'm slowly beginning to understand how the HLFS render 'magic'
 works. One question: would the 'condition' 

For LFS we should use the arch= attribute. It's more semantically correct.

 parameter be usable in an ENTITY 
 declaration? If it is, the differences between the books could be even more
 minimal as we can set an entity for the target triplet and dynamic linker
 based on the arch we are building.

I'm not sure what do you meant, but entities are resolved while loading the 
XMLs in memory and before processing the they with XSL, thus I don't see how 
could we say to xmllint/xsltproc that they must use one set of entities or 
the other at sources load time.


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Re: x86_64 build method

2007-07-25 Thread Jeremy Huntwork
On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 08:07:24PM +0200, M.Canales.es wrote:
 I'm not sure what do you meant, but entities are resolved while loading the 
 XMLs in memory and before processing the they with XSL, thus I don't see how 
 could we say to xmllint/xsltproc that they must use one set of entities or 
 the other at sources load time.

Thanks, that answers my question. :)

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Re: x86_64 build method

2007-07-25 Thread Jeremy Huntwork
On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 05:24:04PM +, Jeremy Huntwork wrote:
 can easily become:
 
 gcc -dumpspecs | sed -e 's@/tools@@g' \
 
 I can't test this on x86 right atm... would anyone be able to verify that this
 command would also work for x86?

Nevermind. I verified it. Will be adding this to the book shortly.

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