Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Sophie Gautier píše v St 31. 10. 2012 v 18:18 +0100: On 31/10/2012 16:36, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi, Petr Mladek wrote on 2012-10-31 15:35: I have seen that people put large test documents into wiki and mentioned links in bugzilla or E-mails. Another solution would be a write-only annonymous ftp. It would be easier for clean up. I am not sure how complicated would be a secure and usable setup. what exactly would you need? Some way to only send files (like anonymous FTP upload without public download), or a way to share documents? In the latter case, I'd rather use some web service, so we are not abused as file sharing platform... I wonder if wiki is good for this purpose or it there is a better solutions. I am afraid that we could not increase the limit in bugzilla easily. A simple way for users who want to report a bug to send example documents to our QA team. May be you can simply allow to send attachments to the q...@fr.libreoffice.org list? Are attachments completely disabled on the q...@fr.libreoffice.org mailing list? IMHO, a good practice is to allow attachments up to 100kB. Large documents should wait for moderator approval. In general, big attachments are not a good idea because of the multiplication effect (too many receivers). Best Regards, Petr ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Hi, Petr Mladek wrote on 2012-11-02 14:12: I wonder if wiki is good for this purpose or it there is a better solutions. I am afraid that we could not increase the limit in bugzilla easily. the wiki is used for that, lacking alternatives, but it is definitely not optimal. :/ If you let me know what you need, I can see if we can set up e.g. a web service for doing so. Anonymous FTP is a risk becuase everyone can abuse us as filehoster then, but would something with authentication people can sign up via email, like done on the wiki, be sufficient? Are attachments completely disabled on the q...@fr.libreoffice.org mailing list? IMHO, a good practice is to allow attachments up to 100kB. Large documents should wait for moderator approval. In general, big attachments are not a good idea because of the multiplication effect (too many receivers). They're fully disabled on purpose. I'd be hesitant enabling them, especially because it also requires some development work on our side regarding the filters. Right now it's all or nothing, i.e. no attachments or all attachments... Florian -- Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board (Vorstandsvorsitzender) Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
On 02/11/2012 16:13, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi, Petr Mladek wrote on 2012-11-02 14:12: I wonder if wiki is good for this purpose or it there is a better solutions. I am afraid that we could not increase the limit in bugzilla easily. the wiki is used for that, lacking alternatives, but it is definitely not optimal. :/ If you let me know what you need, I can see if we can set up e.g. a web service for doing so. Anonymous FTP is a risk becuase everyone can abuse us as filehoster then, but would something with authentication people can sign up via email, like done on the wiki, be sufficient? What we need is a very simple way for a French user to send an attachment. If he needs to subscribe or register elsewhere and elsewhere again, I fear we'll just have to close the bug because he will never come back. Are attachments completely disabled on the q...@fr.libreoffice.org mailing list? IMHO, a good practice is to allow attachments up to 100kB. Large documents should wait for moderator approval. In general, big attachments are not a good idea because of the multiplication effect (too many receivers). They're fully disabled on purpose. I'd be hesitant enabling them, especially because it also requires some development work on our side regarding the filters. Right now it's all or nothing, i.e. no attachments or all attachments... For a list like QA@fr and the process we try to put in place it could be a good solution however. Kind regards Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Membership Certification Committee Member - Co-founder The Document Foundation ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Florian Effenberger píše v Pá 02. 11. 2012 v 16:13 +0100: Hi, Petr Mladek wrote on 2012-11-02 14:12: I wonder if wiki is good for this purpose or it there is a better solutions. I am afraid that we could not increase the limit in bugzilla easily. the wiki is used for that, lacking alternatives, but it is definitely not optimal. :/ If you let me know what you need, I can see if we can set up e.g. a web service for doing so. Anonymous FTP is a risk becuase everyone can abuse us as filehoster then, but would something with authentication people can sign up via email, like done on the wiki, be sufficient? We need a place where to share test documents that are needed for reproducing bugs. It would be useful in different scenarios: * discussing problems on regional or global mailing lists; such files could get limited lifetime * too big documents that are not allowed in Freedesktop bugzilla; they should stay until the bug is fixed, verified and even longer; ideally forever * test documents for manual testing in Moztrap; it should stay until the test is active; ideally forever I think that we need something like pastebin.com but for files. Of course, there are many public systems where you could store files but there is usually a limited download. Are attachments completely disabled on the q...@fr.libreoffice.org mailing list? IMHO, a good practice is to allow attachments up to 100kB. Large documents should wait for moderator approval. In general, big attachments are not a good idea because of the multiplication effect (too many receivers). They're fully disabled on purpose. I'd be hesitant enabling them, especially because it also requires some development work on our side regarding the filters. Right now it's all or nothing, i.e. no attachments or all attachments... I see. I think that this default is reasonable. I would not want to get big files into my mailbox. Best Regards, Petr ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Hi Sophie, *, On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Sophie Gautier gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: [...] What we need is a very simple way for a French user to send an attachment. If he needs to subscribe or register elsewhere and elsewhere again, I fear we'll just have to close the bug because he will never come back. Depends on what you call simple, but I like sendspace.com - it is a filehoster that has a sane amount of ads, and is quite simple to use (and requires no registration, but registration gives you some additional features). http://www.sendspace.com/ - just drag a file into your browser or use the browse button - wait of the upload to finish, then copy'n'paste the link. Pretty easy for the uploader. Only downloaders have to pay attention that they use the download from sendspace link, and don't hit instead any of the ads that might look like a download-button. Drawback: files get removed after a month of inactivity. I.e. if a file is not downloaded for 30 days, it is deleted. For screenshots, you could use http://frupic.frubar.net HTH ciao Christian ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Hi, Petr Mladek wrote on 2012-11-02 16:38: We need a place where to share test documents that are needed for reproducing bugs. It would be useful in different scenarios: * discussing problems on regional or global mailing lists; such files could get limited lifetime * too big documents that are not allowed in Freedesktop bugzilla; they should stay until the bug is fixed, verified and even longer; ideally forever * test documents for manual testing in Moztrap; it should stay until the test is active; ideally forever I think that we need something like pastebin.com but for files. Of course, there are many public systems where you could store files but there is usually a limited download. does anyone know if Etherpad has support for files, or is this strictly for writing? Florian -- Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board (Vorstandsvorsitzender) Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Sophie Gautier píše v Po 29. 10. 2012 v 16:55 +0100: I've discussed the process with our FR team and they are ok to handle it. I've not been able to see if OTRS would be of some help, but we are used to work together on bugs and deal with them asap. The moderation is still an issue. Sounds promising. What we need also is a place to get the test/example documents (they are not allowed as mailing list attachment and Nabble is not always the best to deal with). I have seen that people put large test documents into wiki and mentioned links in bugzilla or E-mails. Another solution would be a write-only annonymous ftp. It would be easier for clean up. I am not sure how complicated would be a secure and usable setup. Best Regards, Petr ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Hi, Petr Mladek wrote on 2012-10-31 15:35: I have seen that people put large test documents into wiki and mentioned links in bugzilla or E-mails. Another solution would be a write-only annonymous ftp. It would be easier for clean up. I am not sure how complicated would be a secure and usable setup. what exactly would you need? Some way to only send files (like anonymous FTP upload without public download), or a way to share documents? In the latter case, I'd rather use some web service, so we are not abused as file sharing platform... Florian -- Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board (Vorstandsvorsitzender) Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Sophie Gautier wrote I would propose to use QA Contact field for this purpose, at least when in the processing (translation, gathering more details) phase. If it could be the qa@fr list, then it's ok. Hi! This have to be Bugzilla registered account. If there is one for qa@fr, then it could be added. Best regards. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-QA-Call-tomorrow-Tuesday-1300UTC-tp4014857p4016156.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
HI all, On 23/10/2012 21:50, bfo wrote: Bjoern Michaelsen wrote - in theory, it is possible to make the BSA file bugs without the reporter registering (Petr/Bjoern) - without keeping the original reporter in the loop, bug report quality will only get worse Hi. Anonymous bug reports would be more or less useless, unless you are thinking about implementing crash platforms like https://crash-stats.mozilla.com where anonymous reports are processed and users can check current status of their reports along with assigned bug numbers (about:crashes in Firefox for instance). Already some bug reports need heavy QA involvement (lots of time and e-mail judo skills) to be polished and prepared for interested developers. To be honest, with a current backlog, a lot of them should be RESOLVED INVALIDated and not babysitted. I just can't imagine what would happen when we could be flooded by anonymous fillings... Bjoern Michaelsen wrote - the idea to create to send the bug to a mailing list for review instead of blindly creating a bug is interesting (Bjoern) In some way DUPS are good (see 3.6 release) - properly DUPED bugs will become hot issues in an instant at Most Frequently Reported Bugs for LibreOffice page. But please, no more alternative bug reports channels! I would like to see all bugs in Bugzilla and not have to search for bugs scattered through dozens of MLs or wiki pages. I recently have found that some users are already lost with BSA (https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/bug/) and Bugzilla (https://bugs.freedesktop.org). Just reviewed few incomplete, invalid, duplicate, with strange comments (a person is writing in the bug that he do not know what he has written and is writing it once again, differently, in the same, initial bug (?)). Seems people do not recognize what BSA is all about and by adding a bug there are creating Bugzilla account and adding a bug to Bugzilla itself (some do not understand that fact). I really would like to see BSA as build-in in bugs.freedesktop.org, than as a seperate product (best as this example template adapted - https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=LibreOfficeformat=guided). Please remember that already LibreOffice as a product has a lot of bug trackers out there... For information, we already have a QA team used to report bugs on our qa@fr list in order to check it on different plateform and LibO version with a test document. Once done, the bug is commented on BZ if it already exists or created by one member of the team able to speak enough English. So alternative report channels already exist but are transparent for you. The proposal made by Bjoern is to make it even more transparent for people working directly on BZ. Bjoern Michaelsen wrote we could do a testdrive of this with those l10n communities that have enough manpower to handle the incoming native language reports: - portuguese/brazil - french - german Bug reports not in English are a problem - I think that getting people ready to translate the bug and chat with the reporter in his native language is a great idea. But only when a good summary comment is added to original bug report in Bugzilla. In English. I would CC such people asking for help now and then. I've discussed the process with our FR team and they are ok to handle it. I've not been able to see if OTRS would be of some help, but we are used to work together on bugs and deal with them asap. The moderation is still an issue. What we need also is a place to get the test/example documents (they are not allowed as mailing list attachment and Nabble is not always the best to deal with). We have to make sure that the bug filled on BZ will be tagged as already managed by our team (nobody to search on duplicates again or tests on other OS, version etc.) and that they will marked as confirmed or even assigned to somebody. I should be able to attend the next QA call. Let me know if you need more from me in the meantime. Kind regards Sophie ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Sophie Gautier wrote I've discussed the process with our FR team and they are ok to handle it. Hi! Great to hear that! All we need now is a list of people, by language, who can be cc'ed to work on the bug when it has non English summary and seems to be a valid report at first sight. Sophie Gautier wrote We have to make sure that the bug filled on BZ will be tagged as already managed by our team (nobody to search on duplicates again or tests on other OS, version etc.) and that they will marked as confirmed or even assigned to somebody. I would propose to use QA Contact field for this purpose, at least when in the processing (translation, gathering more details) phase. Best regards. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-QA-Call-tomorrow-Tuesday-1300UTC-tp4014857p4015886.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Hi, I agree with all of Bjoern' and bfo's concerns and ideas. Concerning additional additional Bug report Channels: I can live with such solutions if it's granted that such reports find their way to Bugzilla immediately, what generally means a person is responsible for that task. But checking back to reporter (may be in a foreign language) might cost a lot of time, and so I think that a cost/benefit calculation will show that such babysitting only can be accepted for very few very special classes of bugs. Concerning BSA improvement: In Bugzilla we already have a small collection of ideas. If nobody else starts an initiative: I hope that in December I will have some more time than now so that I can do some work there, but without a programmer (Rob?) nothing can be done. Best regards Rainer ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 10:22:53AM +0200, Rainer Bielefeld wrote: Concerning additional additional Bug report Channels: I can live with such solutions if it's granted that such reports find their way to Bugzilla immediately, what generally means a person is responsible for that task. Yes, that would be in the responsibility of the local team to take care of. But checking back to reporter (may be in a foreign language) might cost a lot of time, and so I think that a cost/benefit calculation will show that such babysitting only can be accepted for very few very special classes of bugs. That depends on whose time it costs. If it costs the time of a wider audience (and not creates additional load on the current bugwranglers) and thus get a) more people involved and b) broadens the knowledge on how to make bug reports good, it shouldnt hurt and might help. Concerning BSA improvement: In Bugzilla we already have a small collection of ideas. If nobody else starts an initiative: I hope that in December I will have some more time than now so that I can do some work there, but without a programmer (Rob?) nothing can be done. Sure, that is always the limit in the end ;). Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] minutes of the QA Call tomorrow, Tuesday 1300UTC
Hi all, attending: Florian R., Bjoern, Petr structured manual testing (Yifan?): - MozTrap was quickly and ad-hoc demoed at the LibreOffice conference, found quite some interest (QA and RelEng Roundtable) bug wrangling: - bugzilla with OpenID would still require registering - that kinda defeats the purpose, any other ideas? - skip HardHack selection, devs were almosty all at the conference last week (or swamped with preparations) community building/communication (Cor?): - Florian did some awesome work to make server installations (and thus master testing) on Windows more accessable: http://flosmind.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/libreoffice-server-installation-gui/ - is blocked by fdo#54304 AI:- take this to the ESC/Andras (Bjoern) - the newly donated virtual machines should be used allow users to remotely login and test master - intended to be combined with bibisect - a lot of setup work though, still off a few months - Florian came up with this work, to improve the quality of filed bugs: - https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-F7WJa3859ik/UGwY8UbpeVI/Auo/aH7I5dYz2t4/s2000/BS%2520API.jpg - originally intended to be implemented inside LibreOffice (Florian) - brainstormed at the german QA weekend - would allow easy testdocument inclusion in upload - safe detection of version and OS - would be localized - stats show already 50 unconfirmed bugs/month since the last cleanup - multiple issues with implementing this inside LibreOffice itself (Bjoern): - privacy - proxy/connectivity settings (e.g. corp. firewalls) - resources/assumed hard to find a volunteer for - we cant adjust old and released versions AI:- take to the ESC still, to prove the assumption (Bjoern) - maybe better to extend a webbased solution for that (Bjoern/Petr) - OS and version can be encoded in the initial file a bug url - updateable and localizable - no 'automatic' inclusion of docs, but that is tricky anyway from a privacy POV - while our current infra team is stuffed with work, its in general easier to find talent for this kind of work (and maybe grow the infra team) - in theory, it is possible to make the BSA file bugs without the reporter registering (Petr/Bjoern) - file them from a b...@libreoffice.org account - add a bsa-reporter:f...@example.com field in the whiteboard status - add some procmail magic to the b...@libreoffice.org account that forwards to the bsa-reporter - without keeping the original reporter in the loop, bug report quality will only get worse - very hackish approach - the idea to create to send the bug to a mailing list for review instead of blindly creating a bug is interesting (Bjoern) - might help getting more people involved in QA - works with local teams in non-english too - we could do a testdrive of this with those l10n communities that have enough manpower to handle the incoming native language reports: - portuguese/brazil - french - german - english - requires those prescreening the report to be responsive and reliable (thus their teams need a certain size) Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
