Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Le 29/05/2013 23:35, Cor Nouws a écrit : Rafael Dominguez wrote (20-05-13 04:05) I did the rest of them already, ill push it tomorrow and ill send you a msg after, so you can test it. Hi Rafael, Just to make sure that I didn't miss anything: did you already have a change to push the work? As a reminder, the implementation started by Raphael seems : - complicated to code (OS specific) - difficult to maintain (because of OS specific) - not the best UX If it's still not implemented, why not switch to another solution: --> after the OpenFile picker, just add a dialog to ask user what he wants to do (open template or create a new doc from template). This solution is : - much easier to implement (I suppose it should be few lines of code) - easy to maintain (std VCL code) - a good UX (confirmed by Cedric and Mirek) Cheers, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Impress : general feed back
Le 19/05/2013 00:05, Cor Nouws a écrit : Hi Michel, Michel RENON wrote (09-05-13 16:11) While working on entrance animations, I also ran an simple test of Impress and found bizarre behaviors : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements Thanks for gathering those and writing down. I do recognise this partly. But obviously since I know how to make proper use of Impress, I can avoid a lot of the pitfalls. But that's not your point: it's for people that just need good guidance by a clear UI behaviour. Yes : my famous "shower faucet" ;-) http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/robinet_douche.jpg What do you think of my "Proposal for urgent bugs" ? in slide view : remove focus in "Recently used" and "Available for use" No, I would not like to remove the use. Maybe my sentence was not precise enough : I added a picture to explain better : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Proposal_for_urgent_bugs [...] remove "Recently used" ? (ToBeConfirmed) Why would you remove that choice? please note that this point is "ToBeConfirmed" because it's only based on my own subjective feedback : IMHO, the "recently used" panel is very disturbing - it's difficult to understand how to behaves, how it sorts items - it never shows the current item - it lists templates instead of master pages - from a simple visual pov, it nearly duplicates the "available for use" panel IMHO, the last point is the most important : a nearly duplicate UI is best way to disturb users. Can it be implemented easily ? I've no real idea. But I think that things as disabling some tabs while in Master page view, and make naming more consistent, look relatively easy. Being easy is one point... another is people willing to implement it. :-/ As a developer, I can tell you that having fun while coding is important. But the most important part is coding for users : creating an easy and useful software. Otherwise, it'll be just another software for few powerusers. And the better issues are sorted out, especially more important ones, the more likely it is that a developer will step in. IIRC several improvements in Impress have been implemented like that already. Would be good to attract those hackers too for feed back at a certain stage. That's what I proposed in my articles. Would it be helpful (to get more people involved maybe) to have some graphics/screen shots? I'm currently finishing a set of proposals (all wireframe based). In few days, I'll upload them. Hope you'll like them ! What I like about your ideas it that you take a whole bunch related topics. Thanks ! > Did you have a look at BugZilla for like/related issues? No. That's why I first asked on the mailing list. Cheers Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all, Le 20/05/2013 02:28, Cor Nouws a écrit : Cor Nouws wrote (20-05-13 01:39) only managed to add the checkbox option to the gtk+, kde4 and native dialogs, still pending the windows one and mac, but i dont have access to a mac, so its hard to work on that one. Joren - also in cc here - does have and does some useful patches now and then. No idea if he would be able and willing... just posting the hint ;) Another idea - by far the simplest, but less elegant - When a user opens a template, give a popup ( :D ) You choose a template Do you want a new file from that template or edit the template ? [[ New document ]] [ Edit template ] New document = default Ideas? Well, that was already proposed 2 times in this thread ! ;-) First by Raphael on 09/04/2013, then myself on 11/05/2013. Mirek and Cedric acknowledged that it should be the right way to do. The remaining point seems to be how to ask user : - a modal dialog ? - an infobar ? is 'infobar' something like that : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Infobar ? so, IMHO, I think that an infobar is too late in the opening process : - the infobar is shown above the newly created window (the opened template or the newly created file) - if a click in a button of infobar closes the current window and open another, it may disturb the user - is it technically ok to close the current window and open another from an infobar ? It seems to me that a simple dialog before opening template/creating new file is technically much simpler and more obvious for users. Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Hi all,
Le 10/05/2013 17:06, Cor Nouws a écrit :
Hi all,
Worked myself through the list with template related issues and - apart
from all great progress - found a few that are still open. And with 4.1
approaching rapidly...
60589 - [Template manager]: Can not copy styles between different files
and templates
I would say that the only one being able to work on that is Mirek : as
he strongly designed the new Template Manager, he must know how to do that.
*why is Mirek silent for such a long time on this subject ?*
As I really don't understand how the new Template Manager was designed,
I absolutely have no idea how to correct that bug in the new Template
Manager.
My only proposal is based on something existing :
(I just saw it has already been proposed by Raphael on 09/04/2013)
in the "Styles & Formatting" window, there are buttons on top. In
Writer, there is even a popup with an action "Load Styles..." :
It opens a dialog that has nearly what you need :
- the list of categories of templates, then the list of templates
- it can copy some styles from the selected template to the current
document.
My idea is to simply extend it by integrating code from old template
manager (v3.6). As those dialogs seems similar, I suppose it should not
require a complete rewrite.
Then, maybe add this action ("Load Styles...") in "Styles & Formatting"
for Calc, Impress and Draw.
If you think it might be a solution, then I can make a more precise
proposal.
61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to edit a template that
is not in the repository, is lacking
I saw a comment with the proposal :
"when a user does "Open" from the "File" menu and selects a template,
then LO should open the template" ; instead of creating a new file from
the template".
It seems to be a coherent behavior : the user selects the command "open"
so LO must open. When the user selects "new from template", then LO must
create a new file from a template.
If you really want to prevent modification of bad file, maybe add an
dialog asking confirmation : "Do you really want to open the template
'test.ott' ? or create a new file from this template ?"
and related
59427 - [Template Manager] low discoverability of new template manager
- we could use "File → Organize templates" menu
I agree
Cheers,
Michel
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Impress : general feed back
Hi, While working on entrance animations, I also ran an simple test of Impress and found bizarre behaviors : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements What do you think of my "Proposal for urgent bugs" ? Can it be implemented easily ? (others proposal "short-term" and "mid-term" are still in brainstorm state) Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Le 03/05/2013 12:51, Michel Renon a écrit : Hi Janit, [...] But here are some general suggestions : I forgot : - you can look at how LibreOffice handles smartTags : - how to create them - how to handle events - can we add some widgets ? (ie a popup in a smarttag ?) Cheers, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Hi Janit, Le 01/05/2013 18:16, Janit Anjaria a écrit : Hey Michel! It is great that you have added something to the wiki page.I will have a look at it,and it would be great if you can provide me with guidance on the UI part so i can give the best possible result to the community under Thorsten's help and your help as well on the UI Part. As the UX is not defined/validated, it may be difficult for me to give precise clues. But here are some general suggestions : - you can look at how LibreOffice handles the Tasks "Panel" : - how to add a panel - how to hide/disable a panel - how to handle widgets in a panel (create, handle events...) - for the "Custom Animation" panel - how does it behaves internally ? ie write documentation about it. I wrote nothing about it in my basic feedback [1], but it seems to me that there are some bugs (ex : some bizarre feedback when you change order of elements). You may learn *a lot* and it'll be essential for every future change. Years ago, I had to start a project with a framework (MacApp2). I spent severals days reading code from the framework to understand the general architecture. It was an incredible way of learning : when I started coding, most of basic ideas where already integrated. Cheers, Michel [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Hi, Le 01/05/2013 18:33, Mirek M. a écrit : On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:59 PM, Michel Renon mailto:michel.re...@free.fr>> wrote: [...] Is it ok to create a new panel (in the tasks panel) ? Aren't entrance animations just a subset of custom animations? What about other kinds of animations, like exit animations? Don't they deserve equal treatment? I don't think so. Entrance animation are at the core of slideshows : - if you show all lines at once, your audience will spend a lot of time reading instead of listening to you - if you show line by line, you keep control on the slideshow, you can let them imagine the next line will be a surprise... - it's quite boring when a slide content doesn't change for a long time So, yes, entrance animation are very important, while other are nearly optional. And I'm not the only one : look at Powerpoint 2003 : it behaves just like that : - with one or two click (in the ribbon, top-left : very important button), you can define the default entrance animation - for all other animations, you use the standard Animation panel It's the "shower faucet" principle : http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/robinet_douche.jpg Except for fewer clicks, what would the new panel bring? it brings : - a clear, obvious and consistent UX - very easy to discover : the title of the panel is explicit - very easy to use : only 3 popups with immediate change - a shortcut to the most used functionality Aren't all of the options it contains already available via Effect Options? Yes, but hidden in an terrible UI and behind a lot of clicks, icons and dialogs. My proposal tries to optimize the definition of entrance animation of the main textfield. If the user wants to make something special, he just has to use the Custom Animation as today. I would rather opt for redesigning the current custom animation panel than adding a new panel, especially as the task pane is overpopulated as is. the Custom Animation panel really needs enhancements. But this is different from my proposal : whatever redesign you do for the Custom Animation, it will never be as useful as my proposal. And, as said before, entrance animation are at the core : optimizing them will change life of 100% of Impress users. While other animation are not at the core : today, it's not worth working on other animations, let's focus on more important UI/UX tasks (ex : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements). On a more general point of view, I'm a simple user of Impress. Handling entrance animation is so complex, buggy that I avoided using it for years. And some friends refuse to use it because they find it unusable : simple tasks are complex to perform (ex entrance animations), and buggy, buggy. Given that bad UI feedback, I find it much more important to work/focus on basic/most used functionalities than working on adding unnecessary functionalities (ex : adding 3D Ultra advanced OpenGL transitions or simplifying entrance animation ?) My idea is "First let's make LibreOffice be really easy to use for basic work. Then, we'll take care of more advanced functionalities." Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Hi all, Le 28/03/2013 11:16, Thorsten Behrens a écrit : Michel Renon wrote: [...] With all your first answers, I started to brainstorm some ideas. I'll begin to mockup them in few days. I'll create a new page on the wiki. Awesome, looking forward! Here it is ! https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance There are 4 use cases and a first proposal. Is it ok to create a new panel (in the tasks panel) ? Is it technically possible to create some popups in smartTags ? If yes, I'll work on a modified proposal. Cheers, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Recent files dropdown
Hi, Le 30/04/2013 10:55, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : Hi, I have just implemented a dropdown for the 'Open' toolbar button: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Recent-files.png To me this feels really good, I hope OK for you too? :-) Comments appreciated. Great ! - does it still have tooltips that indicate full path ? (it's very useful ; only available with the menu bar, not in the start screen) If not, can you make the popup wider or make it adapt to wider text ? - should we add a title in the first line ? something like "Recent files" (it was my very first reaction when I compared with the existing menu bar ; only a live test will tell if it's necessary) Cheers Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Articles about LibreOffice design process
Hi, I inform you that I wrote a list of 9 articles about LibreOffice, specially about the design process. The first starts here : http://mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-1-the-context/ If you have very few time, you can just go directly to last, the conclusion. There is a very-condensed version of my feedback and proposals : http://mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-libre-office-design-process-part-9-conclusion/ As there is also some informations for TDF, and as they participate to design mailing-list, I send a copy to Charles and Italo. I hope they'll find my feedback interesting. Thanks for reading, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Image Rotation in Writer
Hi, Le 05/04/2013 10:20, Sveinn í Felli a écrit : Þann fim 4.apr 2013 15:12, skrifaði Stefan Knorr: Hi all, As you might know, Writer currently does not allow to rotate images (unless of course you're willing to use a rather hacky extension). [...] Depends on where we want to go; As of now, Draw can rotate images just like any other drawable, via the "Position and Size" menuitem (e.g. context menu). OTOH Impress can also rotate images via handles. Both have a button toolbar "Effect" : - in Impress, it has only the "Rotate" effect : a second click on a shape activates it - in Draw, it has 8 effects : user has to manually select one IIRC, that button was in the "Drawing" palette in previous versions, now it is in the "Line and filing" palette, beside "alignment" Personally I think that all modules in an application suite should treat similar objects in the same way, if possible. To be consistent, Writer and Draw should get handles for rotating images, and Writer should also get a "Position and Size" menuitem. +1 (for Writer, the "position and size" is already integrated in the "Picture..." menuitem, beside all other properties of picture). the remaining problem is the "second click" behavior only present in Impress. IMHO, it would be coherent to implement it in Draw. The initial question was about a constrained rotation (+-90°) : if it is the only allowed rotation, then 2 toolbar buttons are a logical way. It's the usual practice on most gallery software. But in LibreOffice, it's different : - there is the consistency with others modules that allow non-constrained rotation - a constrained-rotation in writer is a first step before a non-constrained rotation (to be confirmed) So, if devs start to implement a constrained rotation in writer, it would be interesting to use handles in order to prepare users to a future non-constrained rotation. And, of course, implement also the "second click" behavior. But there is something missing : how does LO indicate the constrain to the user ? Specially for a 90° constrain : the user has to move the mouse a lot before he can see the image rotated. (you can test in Inkscape with CTRL : the constrain is only 15°) My very first idea would be to show a radial grid that shows the available rotated positions Ideally the handles would behave and look like in most drawing packages [1]; changing to arrow-like shapes on second single-click. I always have to think twice when seeing the actual Impress round dots. the mouse cursor changes to indicate the operation : that's a not so bad help. Whether all those modules get toolbarbuttons for rotation is another story; why not? to respect consistency, for writer, the "effect" button should be added to the "frame" toolbar, beside "Bring to front". And not in the "Picture" toolbar, because she is hidden by default. That "effect" button could have 2 more buttons "+90°" and "-90°", available for all modules. Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Finding a UX dev
Hi, Le 02/04/2013 13:11, Michael Meeks a écrit : Hi Mirek, On Mon, 2013-04-01 at 23:49 +0200, Mirek M. wrote: Compared to competitors, LibreOffice is lagging behind in terms of UX, and, unfortunately, it seems like relatively little development is happening in that area, often relegated to GSoC projects and Easy Hacks, which don't always get picked up. Of course, attracting resources is always hard. The UI is one of the most common targets of complaints about LibreOffice. I'm certain many would be willing to pay a developer to work on UX-related bugs full-time. We could draw up a Kickstarter campaign. I'm aware of some funding for a developer to work on some crazy prototyping work for the UI at the moment. Unfortunately he has a pipeline of work that puts that a few weeks out :-) Is it an official TDF funding ? Why don't we have more informations ? So, I'm wondering, is there a volunteer developer or a former GSoC student who might be up to the task? I guess you'd want to talk to Matus, Lanedo, Openismus, Igalia, Collabora and/or any others around the place that might have cycles for that. Be aware that you're talking around Eur 800 / day for these guys - and of course you'd want some sort of concrete plan to make this viable. +1 (see my other message for complement) Seemingly most people want to fund revolutionary improvement - which is going to be of the order of a multi-man-year project (at Eur 150k+ per engineer year). Not incremental improvement that fixes things here and there. It may be possible if the list of improvement is very precise. But I agree it's not the usual kind of subject when you hire a dev. Thanks, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Finding a UX dev
Hi,
Le 01/04/2013 23:49, Mirek M. a écrit :
Hi guys,
Compared to competitors, LibreOffice is lagging behind in terms of UX,
and, unfortunately, it seems like relatively little development is
happening in that area, often relegated to GSoC projects and Easy Hacks,
which don't always get picked up.
The UI is one of the most common targets of complaints about
LibreOffice. I'm certain many would be willing to pay a developer to
work on UX-related bugs full-time. We could draw up a Kickstarter campaign.
So, I'm wondering, is there a volunteer developer or a former GSoC
student who might be up to the task?
To create such a campaign, TDF should have something to show in order to
say "would you help us to pay someone to develop that ?". Something
similar to a complete business plan ("here is what we plan to build, how
we plan to build it, how much it will cost and how we plan to give back
to investors").
AFAIK, for LibreOffice UI, there is nothing : no roadmap, no prototype,
no vision, nothing serious and official about a future UI for
LibreOffice. And before asking a dev to code something for UI, there
must be some strong work at the UX design level.
So I think that it's not possible to start such a campaign today. It
will be interesting only when TDF defines a complete UX roadmap.
I'm writing a list of articles about LO design process that will fully
complete my answer. I'll publish them on my blog in few days.
Thanks,
Michel
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Hi Thorsten, Janit,
Le 22/03/2013 09:13, Thorsten Behrens a écrit :
[...]
- Is it possible to implement some visual changes on objects in slides ?
ex : add some small widget beside (or inside?) an object to indicate
a status or to show a popup to activate some changes. Or have a
special border.
These widgets/borders would be shown via a menu command, or via a
mouse hover, only while designing the slide.
Yes, that is possible - there's a concept called SmartTag in Impress,
that is e.g. used to implement this four-way icon at the presentation
placeholder objects ('insert table/chart/picture/movie'), or for
editing motion path animations. So the base technology for that is
there.
very good news !
- Is it possible to implement some visual changes on every single
line/ some lines of a textfield ? It's a detailed version of the
previous point : can a line in a textfield have some widget ? or be
drawn with some special border ?
In general yes, though slightly more involved.
great !
- today, the 'animation objects' are linked to object in slides, but
is the reverse also true ?
ie if user modify a slide object, can the animation object be
updated automatically ?
Not sure I get the idea - are you referring to changes e.g. to master
pages, that then translate to all slides using it (that is one aspect
of the original question / task Janit was looking into)?
No, I was referring to the edition of a slide, when an animation is
already defined on the lines of text : if you change the content of the
text, the animation is not updated.
From a user pov, it's really annoying.
From a technical pov, is it possible to implement it ?
(I suppose it has nothing to do with UX, only code, and "just" define
rules to handle different use cases)
[...]
With all your first answers, I started to brainstorm some ideas.
I'll begin to mockup them in few days. I'll create a new page on the wiki.
Thanks
Michel
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Hi Thorsten, Janit, In order to work on that problem, I would like to have some technical advise about what can be implemented or not. (just to avoid wasting time by designing things that can't be implemented) Well this mail is mostly for Thorsten as you're the official mentor of Impress/Draw. - Is it possible to implement some visual changes on objects in slides ? ex : add some small widget beside (or inside?) an object to indicate a status or to show a popup to activate some changes. Or have a special border. These widgets/borders would be shown via a menu command, or via a mouse hover, only while designing the slide. Here is an example of such widgets in a RAD tool to build forms. On the left, the standard view, on the right, the widgets indicate the tab order of 3 textfields in form : http://michel.renon.free.fr/libreoffice/text_order_form.png - Is it possible to implement some visual changes on every single line/ some lines of a textfield ? It's a detailed version of the previous point : can a line in a textfield have some widget ? or be drawn with some special border ? - today, the 'animation objects' are linked to object in slides, but is the reverse also true ? ie if user modify a slide object, can the animation object be updated automatically ? The answers may have 4 values : -1- it can be implemented immediately, no changes required in VCL -2- it can be implemented after some work in VCL (and other) ; the average delay is few weeks (< 2 months) of devs -3- it can be implemented after a long work in VCL (and other) ; the average delay is > 2 months -4- it can't be implemented, can't be done in VCL well, if you find a fifth answer, tell me ! And two open questions : - In this whole subject, what objects are linked to ODF format ? (ie : what can be changed without changing the file format) - what are the technical limitations related to animations in Impress ? Thanks, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mass changes to Impress animations - related to fdo#41572
Hi, Le 05/03/2013 19:00, Thorsten Behrens a écrit : Hi guys, Janit was volunteering to look into https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41572 and is struggling a bit how to best achieve that. The bug report there muddles a few things up it seems, it is also not entirely clear what should happen if one assigns a new master page to an existing slide. Another idea Janit was pondering is to not use the master page concept, but rather provide bulk-assignment options in the custom animation pane (comparable to the slide transitions - selected slides in the slide sorter get the effect). Though clearly that needs some fleshing-out. Would someone here want to work with him to come up with a nice workflow for this very useful feature? It's a subject I've been investigating months ago as it's a basic feature of a slideshow software. But I got no perfect solution yet... disclaimer : I searched ideas to easily apply appearance animation on slide objects and lines in textfield. It's not exactly this bug, but it's related. Beside the UX problem, I've seen something more annoying that seems technically-related : - enter several lines in the main content textfield - apply an animation : every line will appear after one click - then insert some new lines in the textfield --> the existing animation is not updated and provide an awfull order of appearance. This problem is related to technical implementation : there are objects of type 'animation' linked to objects in the slide. In order to solve those problems (fdo#41572 and the update), we need to know what changes are possible form a dev point of view ? here are some questions as a first brainstorm : - are we stuck with a separation betweens objects in slides and animation objects ? is it related to ODF format ? - can we imagine some visual changes of objects to indicate the order of appearance ? The idea of using master slide for that is interesting, but will not cover all uses case (when a user just want that effect on only one slide for ex). This functionality is so important that we have to create a very good UX design, and prepare/prototype everything before starting a single line of code. As you may have guessed, I'm interested to work on this subject ;-) I hope you're ok. Thanks, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Deleting multiple styles at once
Hi,
I hope it's not too late to answer !
Le 08/02/2013 18:06, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a écrit :
Hi,
[...]
So, as you might have guessed ;) my proposal is to get rid of any
message box for that matter.
While I agree in the general principle ("if it's undoable, don't ask
confirmation"), there is something different here :
when you undo the deletion of a style, the style is not associated
anymore to the text. So it's a partial undo (just tested in LO 3.5 &
3.6) [1].
In this case, the user must be informed that the text will definitely
loose his style (and can't be undone).
Or if devs can re-associate style to the text, then no need for
confirmation. But it should be much much more complicated !
Michel
[1]
- create text
- add some attributes (font, color)
- create new style "test1" from selected text
- save document
- delete style "test1"
--> the text become standard
- undo
--> the style "test1" is back in the style list
--> the text is still standard
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries
Hi all, Le 13/01/2013 22:58, Cor Nouws a écrit : Hi all, My sincere apologies if I missed a discussion about this (but in any case my mail box does not show it). We had the menu: File > Templates > Organise Address Book Source Save Edit Now we have: File > Save As Template File > New > Template What is wrong with the old menu? It is easier to find. It is consistent with what people know. And File > New > Template for editing / organising is not so logic with the rest of the menu File > New That was also my first impression while testing LO 4 beta2 Maybe the new menu could be: File > Templates > Organise / Edit Save Address Book Source Ideas? Seems ok for me : similar and simpler than current version ; no changes for users, easy for dev. Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] LATE FEATURE: Personas in LibreOffice
Hi all, Le 08/01/2013 11:07, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : Hi Cor, Cor Nouws píše v Po 07. 01. 2013 v 22:56 +0100: Idea looks great to me and is an invitement for futher enhancements in the future :-) I gues the code in a daily from 2012-12-28 (1) is not yet complet? I see the option page, but choosing an own background image does not work (file picker handling is broken) and a choosen persona is not shown... That's too old, you need a build post 2012-01-04. The 'own background' is not working even there, and will be removed from 4.0 if the Persona part is approved (otherwise both will go). I tested on build 2013-01-08 on Ubuntu 12.04 and nothing works :-( Btw, it's a nice feature ! As it's a user's choice, we have not to worry about readability of toobars. May i make some suggestions on the pref panel ? - why not keep the "own image" to select an image in local hd ? - if i understand ok (images and personas are exclusive), we can have the choices : *Toolbar background* O Default O Image O Firefox Persona (I renamed "own image" to "Image") - would it be possible to add a preview of image/persona ? and a status text if there is an error (error loading image, error loading persona, timeout...). From a user pov, it's an expected feed-back before validating. - to be complete, LO should keep the path of image/url of persona, and show it below the preview ; and the url should be entered automatically in the persona dialog. So my complete suggestion in ascii : *Toolbar background* O Default O Image O Firefox Persona [Status text, only if error] +---+ | | | preview | | | | | +---+ path/url : xx Thanks, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template Manager: UI to reset the default template
Le 09/01/2013 16:49, Cedric Bosdonnat a écrit : On Wed, 2013-01-09 at 14:10 +0100, Cedric Bosdonnat wrote: On Wed, 2013-01-09 at 11:51 +0100, Cedric Bosdonnat wrote: Hi guys, There is one thing really missing in the new template manager: we have no way to reset the default template after having set it. Any idea where / how to integrate that? I just saw the "Blank" template item idea for each category in the bugs page... that will do the trick I think. Hum, yet another reply to myself... the Gear popup menu has the action to reset the default template. what is the current implementation (lo < 4.0) : - is there a default .ott, .otc, otd, otp ? - or is it harcoded ? I realize there is no feed-back to inform user which template is default. Can we add some visual feed-back ? for ex a special background or border, an icon, or bold text ? And if the default template is hardcoded, can we add some information text to say "The default Writer/Calc/Impress/Draw template is defined by LO" If you can create a "blank" template (eg corresponding to LO default), the action in gear menu seems useless. Just a reflexion : wouldn't it be interesting to show all default template to user ? A list with 4 templates : 1 for Writer, 1 for Calc, 1 for Impress, 1 for Draw Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Advice required on auto text resize (Impress)
Hi, Le 13/10/2012 23:58, Jean-Baptiste Faure a écrit : Hi, Le 08/10/2012 15:23, Thorsten Behrens a écrit : Hi there, [...] Thank you very much for these explanations about autofit feature. Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: I think this autofit feature is very disturbing if you are not aware of it. Granted - so how to best display that? PowerPoint has a little icon next to the textboxes that have this enabled. I think it is a good idea. Perhaps this icon should have two states, one which indicates that this property is enabled and another when autofit is in action (text size is actually reduced) with a tooltip saying that autofit is enabled and what is the actual font size. As the problem seems to be "feedback for user", why not indicate the real size in the font size list ? For example, if the official size is 48 and the real size is 32, the font size list would show : 48 (32) From a technical point of view, it might be simpler to implement than adding an icon near the textbox. Here is the proposal : http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_:_autofit_text Thanks, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Killed the ButtonBar in slide sorter
Hi Jon, Le 26/09/2012 16:34, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : Hi Michel, Michel Renon píše v St 26. 09. 2012 v 13:45 +0200: UI decisions should be taken based on facts, analysis, polls, statistics. So this is the statistics I have at hand: Several people angry about a feature, and nobody praising it. Now, you are the first one, so please tell me how much do you actually use Impress. If you do, it is really hard to believe that you haven't got bitten by this yet. Also, I would be most interested to hear how many times have you actually used the buttons. I use Impress very few, but this buttonBar has never disturbed me. I essentially use the 'duplicate' button of this toolbar. I can list other parts of Impress that are "design nightmare" ! (I have a list of bugs of LO and I will create bug reports asap). I asked other people (from my LUG) and they had no problem with the buttonbar, or even with the concept of popup objects. They even find the context menu (with right-click) so '90s (while still very useful) and tend to prefer the popup objects, because they become used to that with current web UI. We cannot measure everything, otherwise we wouldn't get much far because all that time spent talking, and considering, and writing specifications. Much better approach is to try what seems good, and if it does not work, ie. we get complaints constantly, not only a few during a transition period, change it. This way of doing is possible with a small user base (I did it twelve years ago while writing big and important software for Airbus : we used a kind of agile process (idea, code, feed-back and loop). Early users (1-4 people) were also testers and we created a wonderful software, still used and appreciated! (10-50 current users) However, with LO's user base, it's impossible : most users want something that just work out-of-the-box, they are not testers and don't want to be considered like that : they have to produce documents, mostly in professional context, that's all. LO must be stable, efficient and not change UI (that disturb users) every release. You can imagine an equivalence with car industry : drivers won't accept a new car that has defaults or that is not complete or that has something for testing. And look at the huge problem that Apple has to face with his incomplete Maps app. Tim Cook had to apologize and explicitly said to use others software (from concurrents!). It's not a design problem, but it shows that a large user base can't be considered as testers ; they accept only a finished product (already tested). Please note that Renaissance is 3-4 years old project. A good idea will never be obsolete ;-) Renaissance was a project, not an idea ;-) Who cares where ideas come from ? Henri Poincaré (a french mathematician) solve a problem while jumping in a bus, Archimedes is famous for taking a bath, Isaac Newton and an apple. (ok, Newton's apple is a legend...) [...] As a general point of view on this subject, I would say that it shows several problems in the design team (that's why I'm CCing to design list) : - there is a lack of long-term vision for LO's UI/UX : a vision, a roadmap, with tenets. Some big users (administrations, companies...) need that kind of information so that they can plan training, migration [1]. For example : - should we use or avoid appearing / disappearing UI elements ? - should we use floating and/or docked panels ? When a decision is made, it should not change for several years (3-5) Alex / Astron / Mirek / others [in alphabetical order :-)] all have common vision, and it shows with 3.6 - it is the most beautiful open source office suite around. How comes you have not noticed that? ;-) I was talking about something precise : roadmap with practical guidelines : - a roadmap defines "where are we going to ?" - a roadmap defines "what is the schedule ?" - practical guideline defines "what should you do/don't do ? how to react in every kind of situation ?" In the context of design, it would mean : - how will the LO's UI be in the future ? - what is the schedule of the incremental/big changes ? (in X months, the panel Y will be changed, etc) - guideline are for devs / ui people (like Human Interface Guideline, for iOS or Android or MS or Gnome or KDE) Today, the design principles are too abstract to be considered as guidelines. And I repeat that such a schedule is important for companies and administration, so that they can plan one or two years ahead (training /migration) - a developer may decide to make big UI changes, just because he talked with few users : it's a complete by-pass of the existing UI process (whiteboards, proposals, discussions, vote) ; it may also bring some big inconsistencies [2] Imagine a new volunteer who contributed code to improve somethi
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Killed the ButtonBar in slide sorter
Hi, Le 27/09/2012 19:17, Mirek M. a écrit : As for the button bar, it seems that we all have very different ideas about how to solve the problem and we should be careful not to end up with an endless argument. The decision, of course, rests with Kendy. However, if he allows, we could do a very quick whiteboard, with the call for proposals on Friday and then analysis and tentative design on the IRC chat. Here is a very simple proposal: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_:_modification_of_ButtonBar_in_slidesorter The idea is to modify the buttonbar just to avoid non-wanted clicks. Thanks, Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Killed the ButtonBar in slide sorter
Hi, Le 27/09/12 09:47, Mirek M. a écrit : [...] If you're afraid about the lack of association between the slide pane and the toolbar, which should sit right below it, I suppose we could tie the toolbar to the slide pane, similarly to the Navigator and the Styles dialog, only with the toolbar on the bottom. Just FYI, I already proposed something equivalent... in 2009 ;-) http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/2/26/Proposal_impress_ui_renon3.pdf see part 4.3.11, page 35. Its was my draft proposal for Renaissance project, in may 2009 (http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon) That document is incomplete, may be outdated, may contain errors/inconsistencies, but it was imagined and written during some few nights (and I was *very* busy at my dayjob). Well, I should finish it an update it with new ideas I had since...(specially ideas to remove the tab to select Impress view modes) and try to prototype it. Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Killed the ButtonBar in slide sorter
Hi Cor, Jan, Le 25/09/12 16:00, Jan Holesovsky a écrit : [...] Therefore the good OpenOffice.org developers and people conducted a large project some years ago, Renaissance. Of course the toolbar is one of the changes the was a result from that. I guess all the work was done, because many obvious actions are not easy enough accessible for Joe-average. And that these were only the first steps in a route to make Impress (&more) more contemporary. The little pop-ups fit more in modern UI (-expectations) I guess then context menu's - let alone short-cuts and pull down menus... I don't think I agree with you here. The touch-based devices need to have everything shown, nothing appearing based on a presence of a mouse pointer; It's a technical fact : touch interfaces have no 'hover' event. But look at what's happening with Nautilus : devs are making big changes to prepare for touch interface. The mistake is that they change *current* desktop version so that *future* versions may work on tablets. Since last year, users just can see Nautilus has less and less behaviors. Devs just say "we know what's good for you : we'll bring them back later for touch". The result is that the Nautilus project is forked and will be replaced very soon. We have to realize what for next 2 years (and more...), most LO users will still use a computer (desktop or laptop) to edit. Your modification will be useful for the tablet version of LO, but maybe not for the desktop version. and it seems to me as a good trend in general. This is a personal and subjective opinion. UI decisions should be taken based on facts, analysis, polls, statistics. I also made that mistake : few months ago, I made a proposal for another "Insert" menu, based on most used items, well most items I used and supposed others also used. In the design list, I had some immediate and strict feed-back : don't suppose, provide real and pertinent usage values otherwise propose something different. They were right. Please note that Renaissance is 3-4 years old project. A good idea will never be obsolete ;-) I have heard complaints about this Button bar from several people, and no 'oh, I love these appearing buttons' - so I believe we are fine. The same with the appearing / disappearing header / footer controls - lots of complaints that it is too much disruptive, so I believe that not using any controls that appear after a timeout only supports that the above mentioned trend is Good :-) I may be the first, but let me tell you that I find the new header/footer control *very useful* ! The complaints I heard about OOo/LO were all about the "old" look/design. The header/footer control, while not perfect, brings something new that's really welcomed. And I wish we can use that idea for table edition and much more. Why not allow users to enable/disable such appearing-controls by preferences ? Everybody should be happy : - beginners and average users won't see changes between versions - power users may choose what they prefer As a general point of view on this subject, I would say that it shows several problems in the design team (that's why I'm CCing to design list) : - there is a lack of long-term vision for LO's UI/UX : a vision, a roadmap, with tenets. Some big users (administrations, companies...) need that kind of information so that they can plan training, migration [1]. For example : - should we use or avoid appearing / disappearing UI elements ? - should we use floating and/or docked panels ? When a decision is made, it should not change for several years (3-5) - a developer may decide to make big UI changes, just because he talked with few users : it's a complete by-pass of the existing UI process (whiteboards, proposals, discussions, vote) ; it may also bring some big inconsistencies [2] - most important, it may changes/revert recent modifications --> users will be disturbed by those UI flip/flop (for example see previous changes between Rythmbox and Banshee in Ubuntu) (please see absolutely no offense to you Jan, I'm just trying to analyze the situation ; and the context of my feedback is that I have not enough time to work, propose on the UI/UX team, so it's just a little reflexion/suggestion ; but as a simple user, I would be very disturbed by such changes) Thanks, Michel [1] And in France, last week we had an important announce about OSS and the administration : they'll study different projects and choose some of them. Nothing is decided between LO/OOo : Each project's team has to prove his project is stable, well organized, well structured and has a clear roadmap. [2] I just tried Thunderbird 18 (aurora channel) and the main window has no more menu bar ! Menus are now in a popup button on the right. But the problem is that the compose window still has the standard menu bar : inconsistency, users will be disturbed. ___ Libreoffice
