Re: list moderation [was: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue]
On 210524-08:47-0500, quil...@riseup.net wrote: > Greg Farough writes: > > On Sat, May 08 2021, Miroslav Rovis wrote: > > > >> Hi! See below when I sent the message! At the time of > >> sending it does not appear on: > >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-05/index.html > >> I.e. I sent it more than 15 hours ago. > > > > We actually manually approve every message that comes through > > libreplanet-discuss. They won't appear in the archives or on the list > > until we approve them, hence the delay. > > Wow! This seems a rather laborious and unnecessary task. Automatic > functions need to be censored to do what users desire. Why would users > need to be censored? Organizational objectives and peer union are > enough to control trolls. Well, if you look up: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-05/msg00081.html where I ask: BTW, I didn't send my two email to Leah only, but to the list. How come then Leah's reply: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-05/msg00077.html is there, but neither of my emails is? However, now they are, use the thread view: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-05/threads.html#00079 It's because a dev like Leah gets complete trust, but my emails need to be read first. That's fine, only I didn't understand it at first. And so I asked. This method is laborious, but it might be very honest, esp. wrt what some other groups, and not so unknown, are doing... There are even places, fora, ML where you are told about backward moderation (or somesuch, I may not remember the exact term). What they do is let your message appear, but later, even much later, rearrange the whole thread, and remove the messages they do not agree with. Your public image can get really distorted. Sadly, moderation may be necessary, for reasons of spam, real hate speech, unwarranted attacks, publication of libelous data or personal private data, and other things, but the *backlog moderation* (yeah, I remember that's been the exact term) is insane. Sometimes it amounts to soft-killing of a persons image. Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Libreboot 20210522 released
On 210523-05:49+0100, Leah Rowe wrote: > > On 23/05/2021 05:43, Miroslav Rovis wrote: > > > > > Downloaded. But: > > > check the download page again. it's a new key, and i don't think i actually > uploaded it to any key servers. Would probably be still not really useful... It's the general hassle these days, because of the attitude of the devs of GnuPG... A known issue... Sad that it is so for months and months if not a year or more already now. > the new lbkey.asc is now linked, on the libreboot download page I'm glad it is so now! However, I read you docs, and I wonder if my MBO might be supported some day: Gigabyte B550 Aorus Pro AC The new AMD B550 chipset, since some time last year. I amd doing video editing and I wonder if libre software will ever be financially feasible to me without sacrificing editing speed, especially with the likely codecs of tomorrow: AV1, which is merciless in terms of time and resources consumption on anything but very powerful machines. And so, being in addition on a really tight budget, I couldn't go for fully libre software. Sincere regards! - BTW, I didn't send my two email to Leah only, but to the list. How come then Leah's reply: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-05/msg00077.html is there, but neither of my emails is? -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Libreboot 20210522 released
On 210523-02:44+0100, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss wrote: > > Hi everyone! > > Libreboot is free (as in freedom) boot firmware, which initializes the > hardware (e.g. memory controller, CPU, peripherals) in your computer so that > software can run. Libreboot then starts a bootloader to load your operating > system. It replaces the proprietary BIOS/UEFI firmware typically found on a > computer. Libreboot is compatible with specifical computer models that use > the Intel/AMD x86 architecture. Libreboot works well with GNU+Linux and BSD > operating systems. > > You can find the new release announcement here: > > https://libreboot.org/news/libreboot20210522.html Downloaded. But: $ gpg --recv-key 98CCDDF8E56047F475C044BDD0C62464FA8B4856 gpg: key D0C62464FA8B4856: new key but contains no user ID - skipped gpg: Total number processed: 1 gpg: w/o user IDs: 1 $ can't import functionally the key. Where's the PGP-key to download? Can you put a link to get the key on https://libreboot.org/news/libreboot20210522.html somewhere (no string PGP to be found there)? Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
On 210512-17:44-0400, Michael McMahon wrote: > Back to the topic of media.libreplanet, I changed the setting to > preload="metadata" and added sysad...@fsf.org as a contact at the bottom > of the main page. > > Give it a try and see if that fixes the issue. I have just tried: https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/keynote-ten-years-of-empowering-activists-and-everyday-people-through-free-mobile-software/ and no preloading occurred. Yes, I see: > > preload="metadata" class="video-js vjs-default-skin" in the source. But the only instances of character '@' in the source, for that page, are inside CSS ... and inside Javascript
Re: Boxer syndrome
On 210509-23:28+0430, Ali Reza Hayati wrote: > On 09/05/2021 18:54, Pedro Lucas Porcellis wrote: > > On Sun, May 09, 2021 at 01:28:55AM +0430, Ali Reza Hayati wrote: > > > I really believe my new blog post is related to what is happening to the > > > free software world today. > > > > I honestly don't know if your criticizing for or against the Free > > Software Community, because it seems to me, that (essentially on this > > mailing list) people are mostly against the changing world we're living > > in, *outside of software* as if people only live within the bounds of a > > computer and it's all it matters, i.e. "if I defend free software any > > other criticism is completely to disrupt my free software activism". > > > > Best regards, > > Pedro Lucas Porcellis > > > Well this is free software community so the main matter is always free > software. I read your article when you posted your message here a few days ago. What's itching me is, I couldn't figure out which side you are on. Do you support RMS to remain in FSF and GNU or do you subscribe to the views of those like GNU Assembly newly formed group who essentially are the group who previously tried to get RMS off the FSF board, and then redisign FSF and GNU project? It really wasn't clear, to me, from your article. -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
On 210508-17:43+0300, Jean Louis wrote: > * Miroslav Rovis [2021-05-08 01:42]: > > I also like the JQuery's original non-evil-use clause. None > > of those is really against either _real_ freedom or _good_ > > freedom or freedom for good which I subscribe to. So those > > should be alowed, in my opinion. Not imposing my opinion > > though... > > Example of non-free, proprietary software is AVideo or formerly known > as YouPHPTube: https://github.com/WWBN/AVideo > > Where it says: > > , > | First thing... > | > | I would humbly like to thank God for giving me the necessary > | knowledge, motivation, resources and idea to be able to execute this > | project. Without God's permission this would never be possible. > ` > > I don't mind of people being religious, but I doubt that > such statements have place in a planetary available, > accessible and usable software. Mixing religions with > software distribution is just a bad tast, lack of empathy > for human on this planet. Like everybody must be > Christian, Buddhist, etc... > And much more. But my other work suffers. I've carefully read all you wrote, but I have no resources of time and mental effort needed to discuss any more. Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
Allow short top-posting: you are right agein, Greg. Sorry! Also confirming reception of Jean's email in the same tune (his is already on ML web, as are both of my emails). Thanks! Nothing else new in this email from me. On 210508-12:17-0400, Greg Farough wrote: > Hi, > > On Sat, May 08 2021, Miroslav Rovis wrote: > > > Hi! See below when I sent the message! At the time of > > sending it does not appear on: > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-05/index.html > > I.e. I sent it more than 15 hours ago. > > We actually manually approve every message that comes through > libreplanet-discuss. They won't appear in the archives or on the list > until we approve them, hence the delay. > > > Also, no fixing of the bug: > > https://issues.mediagoblin.org/ticket/5625 > > has happened yet. > > We're still discussing what to do about this issue internally. > > > And also no contact appears on pages of > > https://media.libreplanet.org/ (didn't check all pages, but > > the front page, and the > > We've decided to move ahead with this part, and add a contact address > to the page. Both the tech and campaigns teams are very busy, but > we'll get to this as soon as we can. > > -g > > -- > Greg Farough // Campaigns Manager > Free Software Foundation > > Join the FSF and help us defend software freedom: https://my.fsf.org -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
Hi! See below when I sent the message! At the time of sending it does not appear on: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-05/index.html I.e. I sent it more than 15 hours ago. Also, no fixing of the bug: https://issues.mediagoblin.org/ticket/5625 has happened yet. And also no contact appears on pages of https://media.libreplanet.org/ (didn't check all pages, but the front page, and the https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/keynote-by-fsf-president-geoff-knauth-and-executive-director-john-sullivan/ do not have any contact to my understanding). I'm resending this email but only with the one layer of citation removed, so it contains text identical to the sent message. If it does not appear for longer, then, because it could be outside filtering, I am thinking of doing what I said I would previously (see https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-05/msg5.html): > > take out all the relevant messages, use my frozen lurker > > little set of scripts to convert them for web and post > > them for perusal. What worries me is: new material has been added to https://media.libreplanet.org/, but the bug has not been fixed (the same 'Video preload is set to preload="auto"' i.e. non-requested confusing auto download into browser cache still happens. I checked: traced and casted). The difference btwn the message of the hereby contained identical text (all after the first "wrote" line below), and this message, is I added these three recipients that were not recipients of that not-showing on ML web email: Michael McMahon, Greg Farough and Ian Kelling via RT. Moderation mistake, or outside filtering/cancelling or something else? Regards! On 210508-00:42+0200, Miroslav Rovis wrote: On 210506-21:32+0300, Jean Louis wrote: > * Miroslav Rovis [2021-05-06 19:38]: > > > You use Vim for browsing? > > No, I don't. I'm at intermediate level in programming. > Yes, which languages? Bash, Perl. And other languages I'm at less than intermediate like C, Python, Javascript, but anything in programming is slowly starting to be more accessible to me and slowly open up. But I think other than the need for TLS-decryption in a completely libre browser, we should conclude our tangent discussions. I want to thank you, however for having informed the folks here on the list on the issue of GNU Assembly splinter group. It has been a necessary and valuable thread for this community, not a tangent topic. > > And I browse with Pale Moon, because it has > > TLS-decryption available for setting up (which Iceweasel > > and Debian packaged Firefox do not offer) and I trust > > Pale Moon way more than Firefox nightly (which also > > understands the SSLKEYLOGFILE env var) which I have to > > use for websites that do not support Pale Moon. > > Problem with Pale Moon is that binary is proprietary > freeware, thus not free software by definition. Only if > branding is removed it could be free software, but I doubt > it, as I looked into that license. They are complicating > things just as Mozilla: > https://www.palemoon.org/redist.shtml -- I don't want to > analyse it as it looks anti-free software, for example > they forbid charging, etc. Nonsense, I will not look into > it. I have sometimes used CC BY-NC-SA (Creative Commons Non-Commercial Share-Alike, for casual readers of this list, such as from the Web), I also like the JQuery's original non-evil-use clause. None of those is really against either _real_ freedom or _good_ freedom or freedom for good which I subscribe to. So those should be alowed, in my opinion. Not imposing my opinion though... > > So such browser would probably not qualify to be included > in the free GNU operating systems. A moot point. > > But I can tell you Firefox is horrendous by the shear number of > > connections it makes and which the user didn't ask for. It's > > connections to all kinds of places that Firefox makes just > > when you start it... > > Yes, that is so. I wish we would have nice and quick browser, but we > don't have. > > > That's tracking... And it's hard to analyze because of the > > shear diversity and number of those connections... > > On the other hand Firefox does have now good privacy features. But for > GNU as free operating system the core browser does not qualify > to be included.. Firefox is tracking you. Pale Moon does not, or if I did see a minimal phoning back in a rare network trace, it was utterly negligeable in comparison to what Firefox does. And just think of what the world's top unofficial spying agency Schmoogle's Schmrome does... That's against freedom more than anything in any user's boxen. Apart from straight malware. The privacy features it offers?... C'mon! If you track me, what privacy do I really have left? > > >
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
On 210506-21:32+0300, Jean Louis wrote: > * Miroslav Rovis [2021-05-06 19:38]: > > > You use Vim for browsing? > > No, I don't. I'm at intermediate level in programming. > Yes, which languages? Bash, Perl. And other languages I'm at less than intermediate like C, Python, Javascript, but anything in programming is slowly starting to be more accessible to me and slowly open up. But I think other than the need for TLS-decryption in a completely libre browser, we should conclude our tangent discussions. I want to thank you, however for having informed the folks here on the list on the issue of GNU Assembly splinter group. It has been a necessary and valuable thread for this community, not a tangent topic. > > And I browse with Pale Moon, because it has > > TLS-decryption available for setting up (which Iceweasel > > and Debian packaged Firefox do not offer) and I trust > > Pale Moon way more than Firefox nightly (which also > > understands the SSLKEYLOGFILE env var) which I have to > > use for websites that do not support Pale Moon. > > Problem with Pale Moon is that binary is proprietary > freeware, thus not free software by definition. Only if > branding is removed it could be free software, but I doubt > it, as I looked into that license. They are complicating > things just as Mozilla: > https://www.palemoon.org/redist.shtml -- I don't want to > analyse it as it looks anti-free software, for example > they forbid charging, etc. Nonsense, I will not look into > it. I have sometimes used CC BY-NC-SA (Creative Commons Non-Commercial Share-Alike, for casual readers of this list, such as from the Web), I also like the JQuery's original non-evil-use clause. None of those is really against either _real_ freedom or _good_ freedom or freedom for good which I subscribe to. So those should be alowed, in my opinion. Not imposing my opinion though... > > So such browser would probably not qualify to be included > in the free GNU operating systems. A moot point. > > But I can tell you Firefox is horrendous by the shear number of > > connections it makes and which the user didn't ask for. It's > > connections to all kinds of places that Firefox makes just > > when you start it... > > Yes, that is so. I wish we would have nice and quick browser, but we > don't have. > > > That's tracking... And it's hard to analyze because of the > > shear diversity and number of those connections... > > On the other hand Firefox does have now good privacy features. But for > GNU as free operating system the core browser does not qualify > to be included.. Firefox is tracking you. Pale Moon does not, or if I did see a minimal phoning back in a rare network trace, it was utterly negligeable in comparison to what Firefox does. And just think of what the world's top unofficial spying agency Schmoogle's Schmrome does... That's against freedom more than anything in any user's boxen. Apart from straight malware. The privacy features it offers?... C'mon! If you track me, what privacy do I really have left? > > > Pale Moon is a real friend in comparison, it does not > > connect to big surveilling tech... Easy to analyze, but > > not on complex sites like Facebook (hate it, but > > sometimes go because of friends)... No browser would be > > easy to analyze for such sites. > > Good privacy browser is GNU IceCat > https://www.gnu.org/s/gnuzilla Well, it offers me garbage in network traces (though I didn't check in years by now [*]), can't use it. > > Does Emacs offer setting up TLS-decryption (repeating > > the link I gave before: > > https://wiki.wireshark.org/TLS )? > > If Gnutls library can do that, then maybe, who knows. You > could ask on GNU Emacs Help mailing list: > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/ If I had time, but I'm way too involved with other time-consuming tasks that I have to solve these days... But I'm sure they are aware of this issue. > > Can anybody say if it is at least present in somebody's > > mind that it would be good to do that? > > > > I'm not going to be browsing anywhere with something > > that leaves junk to see in network traces instead of > > decrypted traffic. > > Those are just SSL connections over HTTP protocol, almost > each browser can tell what is being connected to. What you > download is what you are getting, test and media. No! It's more that that! You get binary junk in your traces instead of decrypted content and you can't really tell what happened, no! Can be MiTM, or other attacks, and I've seen spoofing and things, but that would be a drift to tell, and a drift that I do not have time for. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = Just: TLS-decryption is badly nee
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
On 210506-01:05-0500, J Leslie Turriff wrote: > On 2021-05-05 09:08:52 Miroslav Rovis wrote: > > To me, knowing what gets into my machine --and the > > browser is the most used for intrusion, has the attack > > surface ridiculously huge and hard to control-- is as > > important as free software and hardware. Free software and > > hardware must be safe, else my freedom can easily be > > compromised and hence it's not freedom anymore. [*] > > A long time ago, the web browser on my Amiga computer (AWeb) allowed me > to > disable image loading, then selectively download individual images by > clicking on them; it also allowed me to view the browser cache contents > to > see what was being downloaded. (One presumes that if the Amiga had > survived, AWeb would also allow doing this for video.) AmigaOS also > provided easy integration of scripting (using ARexx), and just about > every > application took advantage of that, so filtering was fairly easy. > > "Modern" web browsers have taken away these user-friendly features, or > hidden them in undocumented interfaces like about:config so that end > users > are effectively unable to control their machines. Let me just say, and I just replied to Jean in this same thread, that if Emacs does this great cache-availability for users _and_... _And_ if it makes TLS-decryption available to users, I will find time to refresh my knowledge of Emacs and will try and use Emacs for browsing the Web! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
On 210505-21:04+0300, Jean Louis wrote: > * Michael McMahon [2021-05-05 20:22]: > > sysad...@fsf.org would be the address to report problems with > > media.libreplanet.org's settings. > > > > Have you checked if this setting is in mediagoblin upstream?o > [...] > Though Miroslav was quite knowledgable, he probably did > not look into the HTML source. And he is way advanced > user. You may not believe me but I did, and I looked up previous to my original notification the same piece of HTML code that you accused of the misbehaving. But never mind, really not important. I'm glad to see the ticket is there, as Michael informed us: https://issues.mediagoblin.org/ticket/5625 I wish I worked faster, than I could contribute more. Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
On 210506-01:32+0300, Jean Louis wrote: > * Miroslav Rovis [2021-05-06 00:27]: > > > As I work with Website Revision System in background, I have today > > https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-webpages.html#M201805080 > You got it. Website Revision System is described here: > > Also good article: > https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/aug/02/how-to-deal-with-trump-trolls-online I disagree on Trump with that article, and so I didn't read much. But this is not the place to go on about politics. For lack of time and also insufficient knowledge to follow you I am unable to quickly get the gist of these: > I am developing this system: > > RCD Notes for Emacs > https://hyperscope.link/3/7/1/5/5/RCD-Notes-for-Emacs-37155.html > > RCD Notes - Database Tables > https://hyperscope.link/3/7/1/5/6/RCD-Notes-Database-Tables-37155.html > > The system is type of dynamic knowledge repository as defined by Doug > Engelbart: > > Draft OHS-Project Plan > https://web.archive.org/web/20070704185333/http://www.bootstrap.org/augdocs/bi-2120.html > > About Dynamic Knowledge Repositories (DKR) > https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/190/163/ > > I like to be able to put any kind of type into database, and have a > mixture of it, but available kind of together. Indexing things into a > database yields with good educational and research efficiency, it > helps to teach other people. Just as explained on Doug Engelbart's > website, the forefather of Internet, inventor of mouse, outline modes, > visionary. > > > > Recommended reading: > > > > > > How to Run a More Secure Browser > > > https://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/handbook/RunSecureBrowser/ > > > > > > When I wish to invoke URL by using the above mentioned DragonFlyBSD > > [...] > > Currently use Vim. But a very good link there you gave. Will > > take time to figure out how to deploy that wisdom for me. > > You use Vim for browsing? No, I don't. I'm at intermediate level in programming. I use Mutt for mail, and look up HTML mail with its default "links2 -g" which is safe enough. And I browse with Pale Moon, because it has TLS-decryption available for setting up (which Iceweasel and Debian packaged Firefox do not offer) and I trust Pale Moon way more than Firefox nightly (which also understands the SSLKEYLOGFILE env var) which I have to use for websites that do not support Pale Moon. But I can tell you Firefox is horrendous by the shear number of connections it makes and which the user didn't ask for. It's connections to all kinds of places that Firefox makes just when you start it... That's tracking... And it's hard to analyze because of the shear diversity and number of those connections... Edward Snowden spoke, relatively recently, generally about such shear number of connections browsers make, but I don't have the link readily available... Pale Moon is a real friend in comparison, it does not connect to big surveilling tech... Easy to analyze, but not on complex sites like Facebook (hate it, but sometimes go because of friends)... No browser would be easy to analyze for such sites. Does Emacs offer setting up TLS-decryption (repeating the link I gave before: https://wiki.wireshark.org/TLS )? Can anybody say if it is at least present in somebody's mind that it would be good to do that? I'm not going to be browsing anywhere with something that leaves junk to see in network traces instead of decrypted traffic. I already have that case with Getmail that I used and the author declined to think much about implementing TLS-decrypting when I asked him (it's on the Getmail mailing list somewhere, same email as on this list I used). This is very interesting, but I can't postpone my other work to study this: > You use Vim for browsing? > I guess that works. I use often Emacs' eww > for browsing as well. But also Lynx and Elinks. Wisdom is employed by > using that `sudo su' command, or by switching manually to different > user space and invoking browser. Then a script can replace browser and > always invoke browser from different user's space. > > Here is one function in Vim that I use to construct these letters: > > function Croatian() > imap cc č > imap CC Č > imap Cc Č > imap Ch Ć > imap CH Ć > imap ch ć > imap ss š > imap SS Š > imap Ss Š > imap dd đ > imap DD Đ > imap Dd Đ > imap zz ž > imap ZZ Ž > imap Zz Ž > endfunction > > :call Croatian()) > > then if I don't have Croatian keyboard, I just write zz to get > ž. There is similar mode in Emacs `croatian-cc' This is also very interesting, but I can't postpone my other work to study this: > I am not sure quite, but this would be the script like `safe-browser': > > #!/bin/bash > xhost + > sudo su
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
I'm glad to see from Michel's email, that there is progress in fixing this issue, as well as that adding contact info into https://media.libreplanet.org pages is in plan. I probably can not be of much use in that, so I'm replying to Jean's email only, and leaving out replying to campai...@fsf.org and sysad...@fsf.org since the issue is by now well known. On 210505-18:51+0300, Jean Louis wrote: > * Miroslav Rovis [2021-05-05 17:08]: > > But since you're on bugs at gnu (as your email says), I hope > > my lead and your explanation is sufficient to make the > > change, and I hope it will just happen, silently is fine for > > me. > > Definitely not, I do not represent GNU project, I just support GNU > project. I see. > Libreplanet.ORG is not GNU project, it is FSF's project. You can > try reporting to: campai...@fsf.org Of course, I understood that already before, just I try and do things too quickly, and temporarily mix up in my mind. > > > > In many countries people pay good amounts for data, and often Internet > > > is not fast, it could take many hours to load such video. > > It is also that analysis is more than an order of magnitude > > slower than simple browsing. I can't know what I take into > > my machine quickly even with year 2020 launched modern > > (commodity) processor machine (AMD Ryzen 7 Pro 4750G), with > > unnecessary preloading like this, that only analysis can > > tell what it (likely) is. > > As I work with Website Revision System in background, I have today That's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_management and at: https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-webpages.html#M201805080 but I'm still not so sure what you mean in your case. > reworked a plugin for my own publishing that by default no > video will Can you give a link to some of your published pages, if you find time? > preload. None was preloaded by default even before, but > discussion as here helped me realize what is important. > > > tools, but the network is not optimized for analysis, it's optimised > > for quick use, not analysis... > > To avoid that confusion, next time you can simply use right mouse > click and option Inspect Element or just F12 in Firefox-based > browser, then you go to Network tab, reload and watch for things. It doesn't usually happen. To the contrary, this is once in very long time that I get such a huge download started by preloading, in very long time... But your advice is taken note of. > Recommended reading: > > How to Run a More Secure Browser > https://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/handbook/RunSecureBrowser/ > > When I wish to invoke URL by using the above mentioned DragonFlyBSD [...] Currently use Vim. But a very good link there you gave. Will take time to figure out how to deploy that wisdom for me. This is something I'm sure I will need too: > This allows access to your X Server from other user's space, but is > insecure if you are in some local network. If you are behind firewall > it is pretty alright. > > $ xhost + > > You must be sudoer in /etc/sudoers and have to configure another user > name on the system. You then launch a browsre like `iceweasel' > > $ sudo su -c -- ANOTHER-USER -c iceweasel > > Then browser will launch in other user's space. > > The assumption is that in that user's space you should not keep any > sensitive private files. Of course. Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
On 210505-11:17+0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> * Miroslav Rovis [2021-05-04 19:58]:
Hi Jean!
> >
> > I've tried to find out who the webmasters are on the
> > related main page and around with no success, so I'm
> > asking about it here.
Still not clear about who the webmaster is.
But since you're on bugs at gnu (as your email says), I hope
my lead and your explanation is sufficient to make the
change, and I hope it will just happen, silently is fine for
me.
> > https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/locking-the-web-open-a-decentralized-web-that-can-operate-as-free-software-does/
>
> This is because their webmaster have designated all video links to
> automatically preload:
This is the (small) modification to put in effect:
> preload="auto"
>
> instead it should be:
>
> preload="none" or
> preload="metadata" to get only some basic information of video
>
> and they should use poster option to let the user see only a
> screenshot from video.
It is this:
> The problem is that people working on those websites usually have
> enough money and very good Internet and they assume that all of the
> planet is the same, somehow funny when conference is planet related.
>
> In many countries people pay good amounts for data, and often Internet
> is not fast, it could take many hours to load such video.
It is also that analysis is more than an order of magnitude
slower than simple browsing. I can't know what I take into
my machine quickly even with year 2020 launched modern
(commodity) processor machine (AMD Ryzen 7 Pro 4750G), with
unnecessary preloading like this, that only analysis can
tell what it (likely) is.
What I mean is, it took a couple of minutes to
preloading-imposed download into browser cache a good
portion of grandsun1715.webm file, but when, seeing the
quick growing of the network trace and understanding that
some unexpected traffic was happening, I cut the network
connection (physically), and went on to analyse with
Wireshark and some scripts of mine, it took me many hours to
reach to my conclusion, because Wireshark, Tcpdump, and
other are good tools, but the network is not optimized for
analysis, it's optimised for quick use, not analysis...
So, many hours it took me to analyze and reach to my
(probable) conclusion, including the failed decryption of
exactly the huge unexpected download. That basically means
that possibly there was MiTM and spoof that happened as
well. Hope not, but thearetically possible.
To me, knowing what gets into my machine --and the
browser is the most used for intrusion, has the attack
surface ridiculously huge and hard to control-- is as
important as free software and hardware. Free software and
hardware must be safe, else my freedom can easily be
compromised and hence it's not freedom anymore. [*]
> This is the accused snippet:
>
> preload="auto" class="video-js vjs-default-skin"
> data-setup='{"height": 720,
> "width": 1280 }'>
>
> type="video/webm; codecs=vp8, vorbis"
> />
> Sorry, this video will not work because
> your web browser does not support HTML5
> video.We recommend you install a href="https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Libre_Browsers_Lib
>
> +re_Formats">freedom-respecting browser which supports free formats!
>
>
> If you have some extension in the browser, you may protect yourself.
> KB
>
> In Firefox-based browsers, it is possible to change the behavior by
> going to Preferences ↝ Privacy & Security ↝ Permissions ↝ Autoplay
> and then blocking both audio and video.
Good advice.
[...]
> - MediaGoblin or webmasters should not impose auto preloading;
>
>
> Jean
>
---
[*] I must depart on this tangent here.
I know I belong to very rare kind of people who try to
control their machines by, among other things,
(continuous) network inspection, which means
TLS-decryption of (all) traffic and reading what happened.
The Freedom of users need people who will do this. I use
Pale Moon, and I also use Firefox nightly (much less,
because the maverick Pale Moon inspires much more confidence
to me than big tech Mother of his), because, appart
from Google's Chrome (which is out of consideration for
me, Google is the world's top unofficial spying company,
covered by advertizing)
they are the only easily set up TLS-decrypting browsers
that I currently know of.
For less familiar readers:
https://wiki.wireshark.org/TLS
Debian Firefox package and I also think other even freer
browsers do not have TLS decryption available other than
if you patch them and recompile. And not simple patches are
needed any
media.libreplanet.org non-requested confusing auto download issue
Hi! I've tried to find out who the webmasters are on the related main page and around with no success, so I'm asking about it here. Among other pages I browsed, I visited this one, where the non-requested bandwidth-consuming download occurred: https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/locking-the-web-open-a-decentralized-web-that-can-operate-as-free-software-does/ The page appears to have automatically made my browser (Moonchild Productions Pale Moon 29.2.0) start downloading a 713M webm file. The file is: grandsun1715-grandsun1715.webm (as I've _later_ downloaded it to watch it), and it gets downloaded from the link on the page under: > Download > Original file the link being: https://media.libreplanet.org/mgoblin_media/media_entries/2335/grandsun1715.webm I concluded that only after analysis of the traffic dump pertaining to the time of browsing that page, as well as the screencast of the same time (I do dumping and casting routinely). It also wasn't useful, as I didn't know what was downloading, nor where (and I'm not that familiar with hacking the browser cache, yet). It was, likely, some preloading that really was not asked for. And as for some reason, later the TLS in the traffic dump wouldn't decrypt for the part of the TCP stream of the download (the huuge part; btw the dump would grind a non-modern pocessor to a halt with its hugeness). And not even did I get in Wireshark the reply to the http.request corresponding to the the download (which you only get in Wireshark once the download request is fully retrieved). It's probably the Javascript that the page calls, and it's probably non-intentional. Bug likely in the page and its software, as this does not happen to me on other video hosting pages with this browser. If this is enough to notify the admin of the page to correct the code, I've done my notification, if not, I am willing to tell more details. Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Suppression of speech in this list > Was: Carefully written essay asking for proportionality for rms
On 210502-12:28-0400, Greg Farough wrote: > On Sun, May 02 2021, Miroslav Rovis wrote: > > The messages from me (and from Jorge, IIRC) did start to be posted normally > > on > > the list only after Jorge asked about dropped messages on > > libreplanet-discuss > > to sysadmin [at] gnu.org [*], and not before, which makes one be strongly Notice the modal verb I used here: > > inclined to think the reason may not have been technical that the messages > > were > > dropped. That is not a convinced statement. > > As our sysadmin Ian explained to Jorge, those messages were discarded > by accident. > > Typically, I'm the staff member that goes through the mailing list > moderation queue. That day I was on vacation, so someone less familiar > with the Mailman interface was going through the lists, and the > messages were discarded by mistake. > > You're free to think I'm lying, but I wish you wouldn't. I believe you. Thank you for your explanation. > > -g > > -- > Greg Farough // Campaigns Manager > Free Software Foundation > > Join the FSF and help us defend software freedom: https://my.fsf.org > > -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Suppression of speech in this list > Was: Carefully written essay asking for proportionality for rms
On 210430-17:59-0500, quil...@riseup.net wrote: > Greg Farough writes: > > > On Fri, Apr 30 2021, quil...@riseup.net wrote: > > > >> Miroslav Rovis writes: > >> > >>> (Regarding the close to last lines of mine in bottom: I did not receive > >>> this email of yours via libreplanet ML.) > >> > >> There are 7: > >> * Message not available > >> at: > >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-04/threads.html > >> > >> I wonder when did I ask the moderators of this list to prevent me from > >> reading the expressions of others. I ask the moderators: please give me > >> a link to where I can read those emails. If others do not want to see > >> those messages, let them opt-out of those messages (not out of the whole > >> list). But please do not control my right to read! > > > > I am not sure what happened in this case, but we have not moderated > > any message in this thread. > > ¡Oh! It was not moderation? > > > The only circumstance in which we would reject a message without > > notifying the sender is if it's a clear-cut case of automated > > spam. Please do not jump to conclusions when a technical error is more > > likely. > > I thought that message on the web page meant that those messages were > manually removed. Notice that I did not mean that there was no > notification to the sender. I meant notification to the readers and a > way to read the original message. I know this might not be included in > the mailing list software. But it would be good to consider the needs > of the readers who do want to read all messages, in case moderators want > to suppress speech because of list policy and not because of automated > spamming. > > I am very sorry for assuming that it was not a technical error. Please > consider my apologies. If there is interest, I could go through my mailbox, and take out all the relevant messages, use my frozen lurker little set of scripts to convert then for web and post them for perusal. WARNING: I would need maybe a couple of hours to do that, I'm not sure I can find time very quickly. Then, perusing all the headers (raw messages can be set to be downloaded in lurker, and in my frozen lurker) it could be looked into to see how could such deletion of messages have come to be (if indeed technical the reason). The messages from me (and from Jorge, IIRC) did start to be posted normally on the list only after Jorge asked about dropped messages on libreplanet-discuss to sysadmin [at] gnu.org [*], and not before, which makes one be strongly inclined to think the reason may not have been technical that the messages were dropped. It would like fine, all the thread even nicer shown than with Python, it's just Lurker's Javascript that does not make the emails for web easy for viewing with text browsers at all. I'm also fine to let the matter be dropped and forgotten. --- [*] who I was kindly Cc:'ed from in his reply to Jorge -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Carefully written essay asking for proportionality for rms
On 210421-08:39-0300, Jorge P. de Morais Neto wrote: > Hi. > > Em [2021-04-20 ter 21:23:03+0200], Miroslav Rovis escreveu: > > > It wasn't much search: > > > > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20210326.120708.aaaed337.en.html > > Interesting. And if you are subscribed, you might want to publicize > stallmansupport.org there. It is a more comprehensive effort (and it > links to my essay). I'm inactive on the list. Not sure I can do much. > > And it would take me time. But it does not show well in Pale Moon. > > How about if you disable CSS for the article? Maybe then it shows well > on Pale Moon. Not the article: https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/ I have issues with, but the gitlab repo: https://gitlab.com/jorgemorais/justice-for-rms , in Pale Moon (still, just checked again). > > > BTW, I sent you another email because what I replied is not on: > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-04/index.html > > They do seem to be censoring, or clumsily deleting mail by accident... > > This email of yours that I am replying to, and it's some 30 hours old, > > is not there either... Why? > > I have no idea. I have just reported the problem to sysad...@gnu.org in > an email message CC’ed to you. Finally emails might be back to appear, any difficulty in moderation management hopefully surpassed. > > > In case the conversation is to be soon concluded: It has been a > > pleasure to converse with you! Maybe we meet again on the net. (But > > I'm still open if there's any more to discuss!) > > Its my pleasure. Do you use free instant messaging technologies so we > can chat? I use XMPP and Matrix. I will send you my usernames via a > private message. Received that message. Will act. > God bless! > > -- > - <https://stallmansupport.org> "In Support of Richard Stallman" I was stuck with this for a while, in you signature: > - <https://www.defectivebydesign.org> E.g. I didn't figure out on my own that: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/w3c was the worst offender. But it sounds just right. They are. Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Carefully written essay asking for proportionality for rms
(Regarding the close to last lines of mine in bottom: I did not receive this email of yours via libreplanet ML.) On 210419-13:44-0300, Jorge P. de Morais Neto wrote: > Hi Miroslav. Hi Jorge! > > Em [2021-04-17 sáb 11:59:38+0200], Miroslav Rovis escreveu: > > > Maybe it's my misremembering it, or I read it after accessed it > > linked... yes that was it: it was linked from the Devuan mailing list > > that I am still subscribed to, I now remember. > > I do not use Devuan and I am not on their mailing list. Did someone > else posted my article there? Just curious; you don’t have to spend > much time searching your mail just to satisfy my curiosity. It wasn't much search: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20210326.120708.aaaed337.en.html Author: Alessandro Vesely Date: 2021-03-26 13:07 +100 To: [DNG] Subject: [DNG] FSF and human rights > > And if it would be really useful to you to know exactly what happens > > when I accessed gitlab, I have screencast and traces, so tell me, and > > when I have time I can try and see to it, and if that could be useful > > to learning about network generally I can post it somewhere on: > > https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/foss/cap/ which is my collection. > > Hm, thinking again, I probably won’t be able to debug this. And it would take me time. But it does not show well in Pale Moon. ( And I forgot to reply to you why I use it, and not Firefox or other libre derivative of Firefox: No TLS decryption in Debian-packaged Firefox. Yes TLS decryption (via SSLKEYLOGFILE env var) in Firefox nightly, but I trust Pale Moon way better than Firefox proper. ) > I know > little about web technologies and nothing about Pale Moon. However, I > did (quickly) test visiting my article on Lynx and w3m and it seems to > work great (except for the figure). It works even better on Emacs’ EWW. > By the way, do you use Emacs? No, I use Vim, but I did use Emacs years ago. Then went on both Vim and Emacs, but only Vim now. I never used Emacs for browseing, though. > > > Anyway, I have not had the time to follow: Please, is RMS staying on > > the FSF board, if anybody could put a short status here? > > It seems that the FSF board supports RMS. See: > > https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-of-fsf-board-on-election-of-richard-stallman > https://www.fsf.org/news/rms-addresses-the-free-software-community Thanks! Need time to read it. BTW, I sent you another email because what I replied is not on: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-04/index.html They do seem to be censoring, or clumsily deleting mail by accident... This email of yours that I am replying to, and it's some 30 hours old, is not there either... Why? In case the conversation is to be soon concluded: It has been a pleasure to converse with you! Maybe we meet again on the net. (But I'm still open if there's any more to discuss!) God bless you and everybody dear to you! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Carefully written essay asking for proportionality for rms
On 210408-21:02-0300, Adonay Felipe Nogueira via libreplanet-discuss wrote: > Em 08/04/2021 09:36, Miroslav Rovis escreveu: > > On this second reading, I found, insofar, that there appears to be a > > (probably) new link, but it does not work: > > https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=fIK5st2s3kA > > it is at: > > https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/#fnr.10 > > a few lines before, under words "DEAR FUTURE MOM". > > It works here, that I can visit it with GNU LibreJS and play the video. Unfortunately: libreJS add-on for Pale Moon & Basilisk https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=46=21312=160199 It could be the hemishere issue, I thought at first. But, just checked, and I was able to open that page _now_. Also, is it that the ML archives is really updated in several hours intervals only? For more than a and hour or two my mail didn't show on: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2021-04/ I had time to try and toot https://mamot.fr/@Jorge and I've used mastodon just a few times so far, so wasn't a quick thing to do: https://mastodon.online/@miro_rovis/106031478150136125 No reply so far. I hope RMS will stay in FSF... (do not have time to follow all that's happening, I hope the matter is still being resolved, is it?) A related note to my previous mail: > > Apparently, gitlab.com does not support my Pale Moon browser. There is a solution: https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=70=25697=205357 and: https://github.com/JustOff/github-wc-polyfill/releases > > -- > * Ativista do software livre > * https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno > * Membro dos grupos avaliadores de > * Software (Free Software Directory) > * Distribuições de sistemas (FreedSoftware) > * Sites (Free JavaScript Action Team) > * Não sou advogado e não fomento os não livres > * Sempre veja o spam/lixo eletrônico do teu e-mail > * Ou coloque todos os recebidos na caixa de entrada > * Sempre assino e-mails com OpenPGP > * Chave pública: vide endereço anterior > * Qualquer outro pode ser fraude > * Se não tens OpenPGP, ignore o anexo "signature.asc" > * Ao enviar anexos > * Docs., planilhas e apresentações: use OpenDocument > * Outros tipos: vide endereço anterior > * Use protocolos de comunicação federadas > * Vide endereço anterior > * Mensagens secretas somente via > * XMPP com OMEMO > * E-mail criptografado e assinado com OpenPGP > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Carefully written essay asking for proportionality for rms
On 210405-16:17-0300, Jorge P. de Morais Neto via libreplanet-discuss wrote: > Hi. I am sorry to post another message about this subject, but I have > carefully written an essay asking for proportionality for rms. It is > conciliatory and based on good sources such as Suzanne Nossel, CEO of > PEN America and former executive director of Amnesty International USA. > > https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/ Thanks for this work. I read it the first time you posted in this list. Firstly, I am unable to view much of https://gitlab.com/jorgemorais/justice-for-rms Apparently, gitlab.com does not support my Pale Moon browser. ( It is a completely different story, but of injustice and cancelling as well. Still, let me just mention that github.com explicitly stopped supporting Pale Moon browser, apparently after its author, Mark Straver, nickname Moonchild, set hit git repository on his own domain, and withdrew it from github.com... I had hard time contributing the Croatian translation to: https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.github.io/pull/5284 ) On this second reading, I found, insofar, that there appears to be a (probably) new link, but it does not work: https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=fIK5st2s3kA it is at: https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/#fnr.10 a few lines before, under words "DEAR FUTURE MOM". At least it did not work at the time of this sending. Maybe the youtube link should be used/added, which works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju-q4OnBtNU Thanks again! I have little free time (if any) available, the article is really too long for my time. Good it is really, but it's a very demanding translation, regarding time resources. Maybe if there be a way to do gradual translation, just as if it were a way to somehow further section your work so that, say, a casual reader can only read a complete but short part, and the translator can, at first, translate just that complete short part, and the info that get/provide-by-translation is still not partial? And then you offer all the details separately because all those details are worthy. Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr my PGP-key: https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/FCF13245ED247DCE443855B7EA9884884FBAF0AE.asc signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
