Non-Free Javascript on a gnu.org page
I am using the GNU Librejs addon and I found an issue in the free your javascipt page. [1]https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/free-your-javascript.html It seems that [2]https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/js/prettify/prettify.js this file is not free according to the addon. Where should I report this bug? MSavoritias References 1. https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/free-your-javascript.html 2. https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/js/prettify/prettify.js ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
My only issues is not the two that you mention. We have also: 1. No coherent Standard so everybody can have the same features. 2. Not a lot of Clients. 3. Not a lot of Clients that look decent. 4. No communities. 5. No threading. 6. No Voice rooms like Discord. These are just some of the problems that I have. As I explained above Matrix is for groups mostly. And it is much more welcoming to newcomers than IRC or XMPP. or even Mailing lists for that matter. Well FSF has Wire as a high priority project. WHich is a straight for Profit Company unlike Matrix. Also I didn't know FSF was against companies. Their latest article is that being FLOSS doesn't mean no Companies. [1]https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Collection:High_Priority_Projects But you can already get involved in Matrix and developing the Spec. Isn't that what you mean? Well the IRC that we currently using has not encryption. So what exactly are comparing here? MSavoritias On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 10:43, Adonay Felipe Nogueira via libreplanet-discuss wrote: Em 31/07/2020 16:20, Adrien Bourmault (neox on freenode) escreveu: Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part) and is Interesting, I wonder if there are references to that. The XSF point of view is different from the Matrix/Vector one : the XSF is a non profit foundation, in the tracks of IETF. They made a protocol in the hope that it will be useful and that's it. You can't say the same for Vector. Good point. On a not so similar subject, this seems to align with the arguments presented by Software Freedom Conservancy (SFConservancy) in regards to copyleft enforcement (almost all of their talks, including the recorded ones, present this "who best enforces copyleft?" paradigm, and all results in either individual copyright holders or these signing their contributions to one of FSF-and-sisters, SFConservancy or Software Freedom Law Center, and avoiding non-disclosure agreements, trade secrets and contributor license agreements). of both Conversations and ChatSecure are always in touch, and are XSF members. There are many forks of both, and it provides additionnal Indeed, in open standards, people and projects being members of the standards committees/workgroups is a very important thing, specially if many are in favor of free/libre software or if the group itself has that commitment or is a non-profit, preferably a charity. On mobile, there is only one functionnal Matrix client : Element. And it advocates for non free software, especially Google one. The references in my previous replies to this topic also agree with you. :) Have you ever read RMS ? Or listen to him ? Everyone should care about privacy, everyone should encrypt his communications. XMPP's modern encryption (known as OMEMO) is way more secure than Olm/Megolm (because it seems Vector thought that forward secrecy was an anti-feature lol). That is scary indeed. beautiful. Free software is about freedom, not popularity And with this I contribute referencing to [1]. # References [1]: [2]https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html . -- * Ativista do software livre * [3]https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno * Membro dos grupos avaliadores de * Software (Free Software Directory) * Distribuies de sistemas (FreedSoftware) * Sites (Free JavaScript Action Team) * No sou advogado e no fomento os no livres * Sempre veja o spam/lixo eletrnico do teu e-mail * Ou coloque todos os recebidos na caixa de entrada * Sempre assino e-mails com OpenPGP * Chave pblica: vide endereo anterior * Qualquer outro pode ser fraude * Se no tens OpenPGP, ignore o anexo "signature.asc" * Ao enviar anexos * Docs., planilhas e apresentaes: use OpenDocument * Outros tipos: vide endereo anterior * Use protocolos de comunicao federadas * Vide endereo anterior * Mensagens secretas somente via * XMPP com OMEMO * E-mail criptografado e assinado com OpenPGP ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [4]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [5]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Collection:High_Priority_Projects 2. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html 3. https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno 4. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 5. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
Like what features are you missing in other clients? What do you mean Proprietary Software? Fluffy Chat is AGPL-3. Did you even search the clients I mentioned? Element is Apache-2. This is all Free Software. The encryption not being as good in Matrix it is known. And they are looking to upgrade it. See my previous message. But aside from that I see Matrix more as a IRC and Discord and Slack alternative. For groups. And what does it mean that Synapse is the most used now? Coversation is the most used Android Client. Does that mean that XMPP is not an open protocol and is only for Conversations? If you want to use Element they are open to changing the captca: [1]https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/3606 If you don't want to like me there is fluffy chat which AGPL-3 and not Catpca. If you are talking about Desktop there are 6 clients to use one of them from Gnome. Plus even three terminal ones and one Emacs client. I have mentioned before the features: First a lot of clients which XMPP lacks. Second ease of use which XMPP lacks. Third stickers, threads, communities and other modern features that people expect for groups from Discord and the likes. Or Voice rooms even. Keep in mind that all of these and more are planned for Matrix. If you go through their github issues. MSavoritias On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 09:08, Adrien Bourmault (neox on Freenode) wrote: Le 3 aot 2020 23:45:11 GMT+02:00, Msavoritias <[2]marinus.savorit...@disroot.org> a crit : Okay First of all I am going to say once more that I am not talking about Riot, Element or anything like that. I am talking about the protocol. Please read my messages. But you're telling us about XMPP on mobile. Have you a functionnal alternative to Conversations on Android that has the same features ? Third what I know is that Olm is based on Signal encryption. If you say that Singnal encryption is not that good then I am afraid our conversation ends here because it is clear you don't know what you are talking about. That is not to say OMEMO is not good. OMEMO is based on Signal encryption, known as Axolotl, and is audited by experts (see [3]https://conversations.im/omemo/). Then Olm and Megolm appeared, and Megolm is the most used in order to allow people to retrieve messages when changing their devices (so no forward secrecy). Also Element is functional. Like Conversations. Just like other clients like Fluffy Chat and Dillo. Proprietary software is antifeature. Also I am not talking about Synapse. There are other servers to choose from. And the higher usage comes at the cost of features which XMPP lacks. Personally I find that acceptable. But Synapse is the most used. What do you mean about advocating Google? The youtube widget? Recatpcha, is a best example. This is not about beauty or anything like that. It is about functionality and modern features that I have first hand experienced users caring about. Which features are you talking about ??? MSavoritias On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 01:01, Adrien Bourmault (neox on Freenode) <[4]n...@os-k.eu> wrote: Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part) and is not more modern than XMPP. In computer science, be young is not always a quality for a protocol, and XMPP has proven many times it was evolutive and reliable. The XSF point of view is different from the Matrix/Vector one : the XSF is a non profit foundation, in the tracks of IETF. They made a protocol in the hope that it will be useful and that's it. You can't say the same for Vector. We shouldn't have that discussion since the company behind the Matrix protocol advocates for non free software, and open source when they want to be popular. If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is in > capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can be > overcomed. I can't understand what do you mean. Conversations is developed by a very small team, practically one person, and you conclude that this app that evolves permanently has already shown all that could be shown ? Excuse me, but at this time there is no client for Matrix as functional as Conversations (since non free software usage or advocacy is for me an anti-feature worst than "lack of stickers") and XMPP server softwares like Ejabberd or Prosody are way more reliable and powerful than Synapse (which is subject to overconsumption I observed). It is clear that you like Matrix very well, but your arguments are wrong and subjective. In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development outside > of Conversations. I can&#x
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
How is Matri not Free Software though? Apache-2 is Free Software by the FSF. Also this review fails to mention how Matrix has been growing this year expotentially. [1]https://www.hello-matrix.net/public_servers.php There are already a lot of servers and growing. Gnome and purism and Kde have their own instances outside of this too. Also here is the list of at least 5 servers alternative to synapse. [2]https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now Plus Matrix is working on p2p. So you won't need a server. [3]https://matrix.org/blog/posts#dept-of-p2p- Also the encryption has been through security audits: [4]https://matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/matrixs-olm-end-to-end-encryption -security-assessment-released-and-implemented-cross-platform-on-riot-at -last And they want to upgrade it: [5]https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2458 I'm not arguing that it is better than Omemo. But it is good encryption with future upgrades. I really don't get about Matrix not being Free Software though. Gnu Specifically says Apache 2 is Free Software. [6]https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#apache2 If you mean the integrations somehow, that are optional then I ahve some news for you about Firefox. MSavoritias < /div> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 20:07, Jean Louis wrote: Mostly I am in agreement with Adrien. There is this review that I found, that you all may find it interesting: [7]https://wiki.404.city/en/XMPP_vs_Matrix For me XMPP does so many things, we create business with XMPP, we have all personnel within XMPP coordination, and we use our own servers and domains, and XMPP work well in worst network conditions as by the Bwindi Impenetrable Forest in Uganda. Most important it is free software in terms as in freedom, we are free to distribute it, and we gain good communication, secure private network line without spying from third unknown parties. Jean ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://www.hello-matrix.net/public_servers.php 2. https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now 3. https://matrix.org/blog/posts#dept-of-p2p- 4. https://matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/matrixs-olm-end-to-end-encryption-security-assessment-released-and-implemented-cross-platform-on-riot-at-last 5. https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2458 6. https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#apache2 7. https://wiki.404.city/en/XMPP_vs_Matrix 8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
Okay First of all I am going to say once more that I am not talking about Riot, Element or anything like that. I am talking about the protocol. Please read my messages. Second I see that you have some personal feelings about Vector. I don't know why but I respect that. Thus your opinion is subjective too. That doesnt negate my arguments that Matrix has more features and is a more coherent whole than XMPP. Third what I know is that Olm is based on Signal encryption. If you say that Singnal encryption is not that good then I am afraid our conversation ends here because it is clear you don't know what you are talking about. That is not to say OMEMO is not good. I was talking about Android clients specifically not iOS. I have no desire to be locked in that garden. Also Element is functional. Like Conversations. Just like other clients like Fluffy Chat and Dillo. Also I am not talking about Synapse. There are other servers to choose from. And the higher usage comes at the cost of features which XMPP lacks. Personally I find that acceptable. When you are talking about the Matrix protocol when do they advocate for Non-Free Software? I know about the widgets on Element. But what exactly about Matrix is non-free? I thought you could implement how you want. What do you mean about advocating Google? The youtube widget? That is no different than patching Firefox to have Icecat if we go there. Although I wouldn't choose Element due to the license. Can you send me a link where the Matrix people said that they don't want forward secrecy? Because I have read an issue that they want to upgrade their encryption to something better. This is not about beauty or anything like that. It is about functionality and modern features that I have first hand experienced users caring about. MSavoritias On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 01:01, Adrien Bourmault (neox on Freenode) wrote: Matrix is a badly designed protocol (especially the s2s part) and is not more modern than XMPP. In computer science, be young is not always a quality for a protocol, and XMPP has proven many times it was evolutive and reliable. The XSF point of view is different from the Matrix/Vector one : the XSF is a non profit foundation, in the tracks of IETF. They made a protocol in the hope that it will be useful and that's it. You can't say the same for Vector. We shouldn't have that discussion since the company behind the Matrix protocol advocates for non free software, and open source when they want to be popular. If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is in > capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can be > overcomed. I can't understand what do you mean. Conversations is developed by a very small team, practically one person, and you conclude that this app that evolves permanently has already shown all that could be shown ? Excuse me, but at this time there is no client for Matrix as functional as Conversations (since non free software usage or advocacy is for me an anti-feature worst than "lack of stickers") and XMPP server softwares like Ejabberd or Prosody are way more reliable and powerful than Synapse (which is subject to overconsumption I observed). It is clear that you like Matrix very well, but your arguments are wrong and subjective. In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development outside > of Conversations. I can't agree. ChatSecure (for iOS) is a really active project and devs of both Conversations and ChatSecure are always in touch, and are XSF members. There are many forks of both, and it provides additionnal choices for people. On mobile, there is only one functionnal Matrix client : Element. And it advocates for non free software, especially Google one. I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks though. So maybe it finds some use there. Have you ever read RMS ? Or listen to him ? Everyone should care about privacy, everyone should encrypt his communications. XMPP's modern encryption (known as OMEMO) is way more secure than Olm/Megolm (because it seems Vector thought that forward secrecy was an anti-feature lol). Do you think the FSF should advocate for that? With all the problems that Vector has, it would be a treason for people who trust the FSF. I can understand you like Element because it has stickers and it is beautiful. This is the same with other software that are unethical but beautiful. Free software is about freedom, not popularity Librement, Le 1 aot 2020 19:34:56 GMT+02:00, Denver Gingerich <[1]den...@ossguy.com> a crit : On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 07:25:15PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
If I download three clients in Android I will find three different feature sets. And then I have to pick the right server with the right extensions. Its all a big puzzle. That is not very coherent. The modern features I said as above can be stickers, gifs, communities or Discord servers if you will. There are a lot such features. Now I understand that XMPP may support these in some extension somewhere. But the point is that I need to have the right combination of an app and the server to get this feature. About the design I guess we have different circles. I like IRC and terminal too. Doesn't mean that new users will like them and I should recomend it for them. Look, the whole point of this anyway was a suggestion for the FSF to add a Matrix server so new users can patricipate somewhere that fills modern and they can easily grasp. It's not about XMPP vs Matrix. T hat can be an endless debate like IRC vs XMPP. Email vs Gittea or something. As I have said I downloaded all the XMPP apps that i could find xmpp site or otherwise. The only one that had the necesserary features was Conversations. And that one has a bad UI. That doesn't look like a standard to me, if I have to use Conversations only. On Matrix I can easily on the top of my head tell you at least 3 that are in active development. Two of them Copyleft. As it stands now I will continue to have the Free Software rooms in Matrix and patricipate there. Any new user that is interested also I will suggest them to divert there. I don't want to scare them by showing IRC or some random XMPP server. MSavoritias On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 17:34, Denver Gingerich wrote: On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 07:25:15PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP doesn't have good clients for Mobile, You mention this repeatedly without explaining why Conversations has "bad design". Most people I know love the design of Conversations, so I have trouble seeing why Conversations is holding back XMPP in some way. doesn't have modern features The only feature you have explicitly mentioned is "stickers". I'm not sure why this is an important feature for FSF to have in a protocol they want to promote. Are there other "modern features" that XMPP is missing? or even a coherent standard. As we've mentioned, there are coherent standards for XMPP. If you want a client that supports the important standards, use Gajim or Conversations. So by that point I was advocating to have a Matrix server so we can attract new contributors that may want modern features. Per above, please tell us which "modern features" you mean. Thanks! Denver [1]https://jmp.chat/ References 1. https://jmp.chat/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
I know that Whats app at some point used the XMPP protocol. and Facebook. I don't know if it is used internally still though. Especially since they are merging all the messaging protocols together and basically rewriting everything. Google used to use it but I don't know anymore since they changed three apps since then. I was talking about the protocol being Copyleft. Otherwise you risk of EEE like Whatapp did. The conversation here is not about Riot or Element. Its about Matrix the protocol. Which has many clients. Some of them AGPL-3 even. I fail to understand though what does it matter that XMPP is may or may not used by Facebook. The point I was trying to make was that Matrix is used and it has wide deployment. It's not something that's going to go away. The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP doesn't have good clients for Mobile, doesn't have modern features or even a coherent standard. So by that point I was advocating to have a Matrix server so we can attract new contributors that may want modern features. PS. How would Vector Violate its own license? MSavoritias On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:12, Adrien Bourmault (neox on Freenode) wrote: For instance, Conversations is in the FSD, as confirmed free software. [1]https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Conversations.im I don't understand your statements. XMPP is used by major companies like Whatsapp for example, if you need a proprietary one (so Facebook use it). Conversations is GPL v3, so this is copyleft isn't it ? The Matrix protocol is not especially copyleft nor XMPP. These are just spec documents that describes functions. If Matrix is under copyleft, Vector is actually violating its own license ! Conversations advocates for free software, unlike Element for example. This is a huge difference. Librement, Le 31 juillet 2020 10:58:30 GMT+02:00, Msavoritias <[2]marinus.savorit...@disroot.org> a crit : As I said they mainly had issues with the UI/UX and some features that were missing like stickers. I searched for the second one and there didn't seem to be an intention to implement stickers. Things don't seems to be changing on that front though. The last client on that page Zom moved to matrix too. If you ask me they are different crowds. XMPP is for techies with no chance of going mainstream. Matrix takes a more radical approach and even now it is used more than XMPP. With XMPP being mostly gone since Google and Facebook Stopped using it. Gone outside of the tech communities that is. Only place I see recommending it is for the enccryption. If you ask me I would prefer a copyleft protocol. Because neither XMPP or Matrix can stop themselves from being EEE. But I will take what i can get. In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development outside of Conversations. I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks though. So maybe it finds some use there. I like the standarization you said the community is trying. But I think its too late for that. With all the fragmentation and people moving on. You are right that people still use it but I think it is more like IRC. It is good for the minority but you are not going to convince new users to join there. We should look how to convince new users to join in modern protocols. If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is in capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can be overcomed. MSavoritias On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 03:00, Denver Gingerich <[3]den...@ossguy.com> wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 09:51:43PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: Conversations is badly designed. I am talking from experience trying for people to adopt it. I haven't had any bad experiences getting people to adopt Conversations. Maybe you could be more specific about what particular aspects of Conversations they have issues with? Every other client listed on this page: <<[4]https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html>> for android is basically with design from twenty years ago. There doesn't seem to be new clients popping up. for mobile at least. In contrast Matrix <<[5]https://matrix.org/clients/>> has a lot of new clients with active development. I agree that the XMPP community could make a prettier clients page with screenshots and such, like Matrix has. There are at least as many XMPP clients under active development as there are Matrix clients. Its not the problem of something Conversations are missing. Although it misses a lot of stuff. Like stickers and widgets. The thing is that every client I installed had different capabilities entirely. It made sense when I r
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
As I said they mainly had issues with the UI/UX and some features that were missing like stickers. I searched for the second one and there didn't seem to be an intention to implement stickers. Things don't seems to be changing on that front though. The last client on that page Zom moved to matrix too. If you ask me they are different crowds. XMPP is for techies with no chance of going mainstream. Matrix takes a more radical approach and even now it is used more than XMPP. With XMPP being mostly gone since Google and Facebook Stopped using it. Gone outside of the tech communities that is. Only place I see recommending it is for the enccryption. If you ask me I would prefer a copyleft protocol. Because neither XMPP or Matrix can stop themselves from being EEE. But I will take what i can get. In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development o utside of Conversations. I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks though. So maybe it finds some use there. I like the standarization you said the community is trying. But I think its too late for that. With all the fragmentation and people moving on. You are right that people still use it but I think it is more like IRC. It is good for the minority but you are not going to convince new users to join there. We should look how to convince new users to join in modern protocols. If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP is in capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it can be overcomed. MSavoritias On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 03:00, Denver Gingerich wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 09:51:4 3PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: Conversations is badly designed. I am talking from experience trying for people to adopt it. I haven't had any bad experiences getting people to adopt Conversations. Maybe you could be more specific about what particular aspects of Conversations they have issues with? Every other client listed on this page: <[1]https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html> for android is basically with design from twenty years ago. There doesn't seem to be new clients popping up. for mobile at least. In contrast Matrix <[2]https://matrix.org/clients/> has a lot of new clients with active development. I agree that the XMPP community could make a prettier clients page with screenshots and such, like Matrix has. There are at least as many XMPP clients under active development as there are Matrix clients. Its not the problem of something Conversations are missing. Although it misses a lot of stuff. Like stickers and widgets. The thing is that every client I installed had different capabilities entirely. It made sense when I read the phylosophy behind XMPP and Matrix though. Matrix wants to be ,from my perspective, a coherent standard. One piece. XMPP is more modular. Which explains the fragmentation in the XMPP ecosystem. True that is another thing the XMPP community could work on. We do have compliance suites that will tell you if your client meets a certain "coherent standard": [3]https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html#im However, we haven't done enough work to advertise this or certify clients, so it's not yet easy to benefit from this work as a person new to XMPP. There seem to be enough people using XMPP for it to continue on an upward trajectory. It might not see the hockey stick growth that other protocols do, but it also hasn't flamed out, which I fear may happen with some of the newer, more hyped protocols. Denver [4]https://jmp.chat/ References 1. https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html 2. https://matrix.org/clients/ 3. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html#im 4. https://jmp.chat/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
Conversations is badly designed. I am talking from experience trying for people to adopt it. Every other client listed on this page: [1]https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html for android is basically with design from twenty years ago. There doesn't seem to be new clients popping up. for mobile at least. In contrast Matrix [2]https://matrix.org/clients/ has a lot of new clients with active development. I checked. It does have some development. Which seems interesting considering the stagnation of clients for mobile. Its not the problem of something Conversations are missing. Although it misses a lot of stuff. Like stickers and widgets. The thing is that every client I installed had different capabilities entirely. It made sense when I read the phylosophy be hind XMPP and Matrix though. Matrix wants to be ,from my perspective, a coherent standard. One piece. XMPP is more modular. Which explains the fragmentation in the XMPP ecosystem. That''s true. It is still in heavy development. It does have though at least 4 server implementations that I know of. Some of them are lightweight. One of them by matrix.org themselves as a planeed rewrite for the slow current server. Also bear in mind that the Goverment of France, and the Goverment of Germany along with some other providers. Also Kde and Gnome have moved there. Matrix is here to stay. On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 16:27, Denver Gingerich wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 06:04:34PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: I wanted a client for Android so i searched on Google play and Fdroid but couldn't find one with acceptable design. Proprietary or otherwise. What is wrong with Conversations? [3]https://f-droid.org/app/eu.siacs.conversations [4]https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.siacs.conversations Plus I have seen that there is a huge shift to Matrix for non-tech people. IRC and XMPP seem to stay into obscurity. XMPP would have been popular by now. And what good is a system if its not popular? I don't want to message my self. Matrix is the only protocol that is actively developed, is Free Software (although not AGPL-3), and seems to have a consensus by the wider community. XMPP is also actively developed and has many free software implementations (including some that are AGPLv3, like [5]https://jmp.chat/ ). If you want/need a gratis account that supports all the important features, see [6]https://dismail.de/register.html . Also the clients seem to decently designed. See above - is there something Conversations is missing versus the Matrix client(s) for Android? I'm saying all this because if we want to attract more Free Software users, like it or not we need a good presentation with good interface. otherwise we risk to fall into obscurity. No, Im not saying to use proprietary messaging to attract users. I definitely agree. However, I think we need to look at which protocols are likely to stand the test of time. Matrix is very new, and the server implementation(s?) is extremely resource-heavy. XMPP has been around for over 20 years and has multiple lightweight server implementations. Denver [7]https://jmp.chat/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html 2. https://matrix.org/clients/ 3. https://f-droid.org/app/eu.siacs.conversations 4. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.siacs.conversations 5. https://jmp.chat/ 6. https://dismail.de/register.html 7. https://jmp.chat/ 8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
I am well aware. Personally I rejected it because its not Copyleft. MSavoritias On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 20:51, Ali Reza Hayati wrote: If you ever considered using Riot (newly renamed to Element), please note that Riot/Element has Electron and Electron is considered nonfree. Electron has Chromium in it but it doesn't include all licenses of Chromium so it's a violation of software freedom. On 7/30/20 8:34 PM, Msavoritias wrote: Dino is not available for Android it seems though. On desktop there are choices. I wanted a client for Android so i searched on Google play and Fdroid but couldn't find one with acceptable design. Proprietary or otherwise. I understand that tech people don't care about UI/UX but we need some nice looking clients. Plus I have seen that there is a huge shift to Matrix for non-tech people. IRC and XMPP seem to stay into obscurity. XMPP would have been popular by now. And what good is a system if its not popular? I don't want to message my self. Matrix is the only protocol that is actively developed, is Free Software (although not AGPL-3), and seems to have a consensus by the wider community. Also the clients seem to decently designed. I'm saying all this because if we want to attract more Free Software users, like it or not we need a good presentation with good interface. otherwise we risk to fall into obscurity. No, Im not saying to use proprietary messaging to attract users. MSavoritias On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 04:37, Denver Gingerich <[1]den...@ossguy.com> wrote: On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 06:25:36PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:47, Adonay Felipe Nogueira via libreplanet-discuss <[1][2]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: Note: I don't speak for FSF, nor for GNU. Em 23/07/2020 18:56, Msavoritias escreveu: I would like to ask is it in the works to have an official FSF/GNU server in the future? Are there any blockers I can help with? FSF already has XMPP service for their associate members. I guess it comes down to personal preference but for me I didn't see the same features in all the clients I tried and almost all of them were badly designed. This doesn't help with convincing people to use XMPP. Where did you go to determine which XMPP clients to try? And which clients did you try? I believe there should be better resources to allow people to more easily find the best XMPP clients - I'm trying to do my part with the recommendations at [2][3]https://jmp.chat/#clients (for the free software service I run). In short, use Gajim or Conversations. If you want fancy design but less features, then Dino. Hopefully we can make these recommendations more widely-known so that people don't give up on XMPP. It's an excellent protocol and is very easy to use and featureful if you have the right client. Denver [3][4]https://jmp.chat/ References 1. [5]mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. [6]https://jmp.chat/#clients 3. [7]https://jmp.chat/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [8]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus s -- Ali Reza Hayati <[10]hay...@riseup.net> [11]www.alirezahayati.com ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [12]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [13]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. mailto:den...@ossguy.com 2. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 3. https://jmp.chat/#clients 4. https://jmp.chat/ 5. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 6. https://jmp.chat/#clients 7. https://jmp.chat/ 8. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 9. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss 10. mailto:hay...@riseup.net 11. http://www.alirezahayati.com/ 12. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 13. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
Dino is not available for Android it seems though. On desktop there are choices. I wanted a client for Android so i searched on Google play and Fdroid but couldn't find one with acceptable design. Proprietary or otherwise. I understand that tech people don't care about UI/UX but we need some nice looking clients. Plus I have seen that there is a huge shift to Matrix for non-tech people. IRC and XMPP seem to stay into obscurity. XMPP would have been popular by now. And what good is a system if its not popular? I don't want to message my self. Matrix is the only protocol that is actively developed, is Free Software (although not AGPL-3), and seems to have a consensus by the wider community. Also the clients seem to decently designed. I'm saying all this because if we want to attract more Free Software users, like it or not we need a good presentation with good interface. otherwise we risk to fall into obscurity. No, Im not saying to use proprietary messaging to attract users. MSavoritias On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 04:37, Denver Gingerich wrote: On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 06:25:36PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:47, Adonay Felipe Nogueira via libreplanet-discuss <[1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org> wrote: Note: I don't speak for FSF, nor for GNU. Em 23/07/2020 18:56, Msavoritias escreveu: I would like to ask is it in the works to have an official FSF/GNU server in the future? Are there any blockers I can help with? FSF already has XMPP service for their associate members. I guess it comes down to personal preference but for me I didn't see the same features in all the clients I tried and almost all of them were badly designed. This doesn't help with convincing people to use XMPP. Where did you go to determine which XMPP clients to try? And which clients did you try? I believe there should be better resources to allow people to more easily find the best XMPP clients - I'm trying to do my part with the recommendations at [2]https://jmp.chat/#clients (for the free software service I run). In short, use Gajim or Conversations. If you want fancy design but less features, then Dino. Hopefully we can make these recommendations more widely-known so that people don't give up on XMPP. It's an excellent protocol and is very easy to use and featureful if you have the right client. Denver [3]https://jmp.chat/ References 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. https://jmp.chat/#clients 3. https://jmp.chat/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement (Sagar Acharya : 2)
I think GNU/FSF has a problem with their approach for proffesionals in general. We can gather users and enthusiasts. But there is a real struggle trying to convince the majority of Software proffesionals why they need GPL. And also a serious lack of tools for other proffessional sectors like Cad and UI?UX design to name a few. We need to rethink our strategy towards approaching these groups. MSavoritias On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 17:28, Roberto Beltran wrote: I agree though with previous points Free Software has effectively won. Everybody chooses MIT license nowdays. The question about next steps for me is: Do we start promoting for a copyleft world now? Because as far as I have seens FSF and GNU has been mainly for Free Software goal up until now. Some things I think need to be worked on now: - free software should be more of a kitchen table issue like climate change or immigration. Not everyone will agree obviously, but everyone should know it's a thing. This takes a lot of awareness campaigning and putting out a distilled message that doesn't use off-putting words (like "control", I say this from experience). - Most tech professionals at least have some idea of open source, but there's also a lot of common misconceptions floating around. Having free software advocates around in borderline proprietary spaces helps a lot. You can be there in the conversation to say "you can't just release the source, it needs a license" or "no, the GPL isn't some scary virus" etc. a lot of stuff isn't malicious, just people not knowing better. - there's already a crazy amount of free software and information out there but it's all kind of scattered online in a way. most people don't enjoy spending a lot of time on the computer learning about things like we do. this is where I think local advocacy groups could be super effective, because they can consolidate the best information for their communities and hand-hold new users until they are walking on their own. they can also do outreach to other local organizations and local governments. - there are also critical areas that don't have particularly good free software. I'm not even talking about how GIMP doesn't have every little feature photoshop has. Like something I ran into was that I met a great UX/UI person that wanted to help out LibreMiami, but we realized there's not really a usable wire-framing tool. How are we going to have better interfaces for free software if I need to make excuses to UX/UI volunteers that the wire-framing software isn't even as good as something google puts out gratis? We can talk about the ideals all day, but if we can't thrive we just look pathetic to most people. There are other critical areas like this where we're not on solid ground. Each likely needs a unique solution. Roberto Beltran ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:47, Adonay Felipe Nogueira via libreplanet-discuss wrote: Note: I don't speak for FSF, nor for GNU. Em 23/07/2020 18:56, Msavoritias escreveu: Guix on system. I am part of the Guix Channel on Matrix.> […] I created three channels on my server privacytools.io I know that there are some GNU channels on the matrix.org server but I went forth with […] I noticed that there are a lot of GNU projects already there. Some of them are GUIX, Octave, Gnunet, a lot of GNU channels, Linux Libre and so forth. On the subject of channels/rooms, please make sure that these are pure Matrix channels by checking the full address, since last time I tried (many years ago) with purple-matrix, Matrix itself doesn't tell that very easily. Also, make sure that the official pages of the projects advertise these channels, if not, they might not be official. Fair point. From what I can see there are some that are basically IRC bridged channels and some that are native. But they don't seem to be advertised so they are unofficial. creating one on my server. First for Decentralization reasons. Matrix.org is the biggest server. And second matrix.org is slow due to the number of users there. we can al ways set up an IRC bridge to talk with people on the gnu IRC server. Setting up a bridge means allocating a separate part of the server to talk to those protocols. How this communication is made (if a guest account is created for every person or if each of them have to manually set their own account in case the IRC network has rules to only allow participation of registered people) is another set of issues. The best option I know of thus far, which also helps non-experienced and unregistered users although possibly having some limitations on which IRC features will be available, is to set a bot to serve as a message relay back and forth between the target channels. Disregarding the message relay bot solution, Matrix's bridge services seem to be similar to XMPP's. As for the bot, as a Free Software Directory reviewer/evaluator, I saw a submission (still unapproved) for one such tools, which I'm trying to review as of today. Second a lot of new users nowdays expect modern tooling and communication. I think integrating a Matrix server will be a great way Indeed but, let's not forget that the means of communication and data interoperability/exchange that are still stable as of today succeeded in such a way thanks to one specific kind of standardization that was the norm before the growth of the Californian ideology past 2000 (i.e.: the term coined by Richard Barbrook and Andy Cameron, not to be confused with beliefs of a random person from California). The standard in question which resisted is called "open standard", not because it simply came from a free/libre and "open source" software project, but because it was/is approved by a national or international standards body/collective/workgroup — e.g.: internationally we have many organizations, including W3C, IETF, ISO, XSF. These standards bodies often accept members from different groups so as to make sure that everyone has a chance to participate. That all sounds great in theory. But in practise from my experience the W3C is controlled by Google basically with the browser monopoly they have. And POSIX and other stuff have been holding innovation back. That happens because of the resistanse to change and the slow beraucracy of the process. I think we should look into finding striking a better balance between standartization and innovation and also having Standard bodies that actually listen to everybody. These "open standards" can of course be obsolete or not reflect a new scenario that arose, this is why the members of the bodies can occasionally call on the others to make updated versions, which in most cases, even if approved, are in no way immediately mandatory. However, when it involves standards "auto-regulated" by their own projects, we will occasionally see lots of anomalies, such as: new versions being approved as mandatory very fast and thus breaking software which, despite being updated, still implement the old version; and other group of people making and following a partially compatible parallel standard branched from the original (e.g.: original Markdown, GitLab/GitHub Markdown, BibTex, BibLaTeX, abnTeX2, abnTeX2cite, BibLaTeX-ABNT). It must be noted that even if "open standards" suffer from these anomalies — e.g.: WhatsApp which was a XMPP service provider too big (because many people recommended it instead of pointing to either a "XMPP server list" or a local provider), and so made "F
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement (Sagar Acharya : 2)
Really? FSF has a Discord instance? That's baffling. I agree though with previous points Free Software has effectively won. Everybody chooses MIT license nowdays. The question about next steps for me is: Do we start promoting for a copyleft world now? Because as far as I have seens FSF and GNU has been mainly for Free Software goal up until now. MSavoritias On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 22:14, Jim Garrett wrote: Hi Yasu! I would love to help and I'm sure others would too. FSF has a Discord instance but it's reservered for FSF members. Would a wiki page or an online collaboratively-edited document make sense? I'm sure we could find a server to host this. Also, there are already some resources available on the FSF web site: [1]https://www.fsf.org/resources, see "Resources for promoting free software". I would want to learn more about this coöp in order to tailor the message: What unites their community? How did it start? What sort of services do they offer their clients? What sort of services would they like to offer in the future? What is their culture, what are their dreams? -Jim Garrett On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 09:00:29 +0900 Yasuaki Kudo <[2]y...@yasuaki.com> wrote: Hi, I think this thread definitely explores many good points - I am new here but is there any structured discussion system for Free Software movement? For example, this site runs a discussion software called "Discourse" [3]https://community.coops.tech/ I have been asked by a contact at a large worker cooperative with over 10,000 members to provide some 'talking points memo' so that he can promote free software internally. They are facing the situation where they will become more and more invested in Microsoft, Google, Zoom, etc or potentially switch to Free Software ecosystem. Cheers, Yasu > On Jul 25, 2020, at 05:39, Miles Fidelman > <[4]mfidel...@meetinghouse.net> wrote: > > On 7/24/20 3:14 PM, Roberto Beltran via libreplanet-discuss wrote: > >>>> Most people on here already know how bad things are, but I don't >>>> think it's black or white win or lose. >>> Do we really know how bad things are? Is there a report somewhere >>> showing, for example adoption in free software, copyleft license >>> and dependency in proprietary software / noncopyleft software in >>> numbers and how it has evolved over the time? >>> >>> On a side note, do we have success criteria (over achievable >>> stages, not just disappearance of proprietary software from the >>> world) that we can use to compare and good metrics to measure the >>> progress of the movement? > Funny thing, but... > > - Pretty much every funded R&D project that I've been associated > with, has contractual clauses requiring software to be released as > either open source or to the public domain - the leading edge > remains open source > > - Pretty much every ISP, Hosting, and Cloud provider relies heavily > on FOSS software - with the bigger ones both funding critical > projects, and releasing a lot of their infrastructure code as FOSS > (Apache & Open Stack come to mind, Lyft's Clutch infrastructure > management platform is looking particularly interesting) > > - The vast majority of the world's web sites run on Apache, on > Linux or BSD - and a huge number run on WordPress (all FOSS) > > - Savvy IT directors prefer open source software to proprietary > software - not for cost reasons (maintaining software is costly, > whether you pay a vendor to do it or hire people) - but because > it's more flexible, and avoids vendor lock in (less-savvy IT > directors use FOSS because they think it's cheaper) - by the way, > that includes some rather large organizations, like large pieces of > the US Marine Corps > > Perhaps the real problem is that MOST software doesn't make it into > wide-spread use, and hence cannot assemble a base of support for an > open source effort. Specialized software tends to have smaller > audiences - requiring either a very high price-tag, or a grant, to > support a dedicated development & support team. And then there's > the 90% that's a mix of pet projects, poorly implemented, that will > never make it as either commercial or open source. > > Yes... there are lots of practical issues with the GNU project & > other libre software efforts - but they have a lot more to do with > lack of focus, design by committee, and, these
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement
I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. You can say the most correct and right things in the world. But if you don't make the person that hears you inspired or happy you won't go anywhere. MSavoritias On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 15:02, Ali Reza Hayati wrote: I actually don't agree to this. The goal of FSF is to make software libre knowledge and use worldwide. Such analogy you mentioned is not for all people. On July 24, 2020 8:40:29 AM UTC, Msavoritias <[1]marinus.savorit...@disroot.org> wrote: I agree completely. We could attract people with an enjoyable experiece and the community feeling. We should investigate how FSF and GNU can improve these areas. Regards, MSavoritias On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 07:29, Yasuaki Kudo <[2]y...@yasuaki.com> wrote: In a way, I think money is not even a big issue. I recently came across this article: <[3]https://newrepublic.com/article/121832/pleasure-do-it-yourself-s low-computing> Applying the "Slow Food" analogy, our point would not be pouring money so that it becomes "Less Slow" 😄 I would say, we need to have more people enjoy it. So in practical terms, we need to develop a huge communal kitchen, instead of an industrial food factory. The workers at food factory, or paid computer programmers at Microsoft, for example, would not go there were it not for the money. However, the people at communal kitchens at camping sites go there for the enjoyment of it! Free Software development should a very enjoyable activity and we should aim to develop a practical regime of constantly welcoming new participants, educating them and empowering them to enjoy and contribute meaningfully to the Fee Software ecosystem 😄 -Yasu On Jul 24, 2020, at 06:36, Msavoritias <[4]marinus.savorit...@disroot.org> wrote: Mr Fidelman, Whether this person is or isn't correct doesn't matter. We should treat everybody respectfully otherwise we are alienating potential Free Software users from joining our community. Please try to be more polite in the future. MSavoritias On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 15:22, Miles Fidelman <[5]mfidel...@meetinghouse.net> wrote: On 7/23/20 12:48 PM, Sagar Acharya via libreplanet-discuss wrote: I read "Free as in Freedom" by Richard Stallman and am a strong supporter of GNU project. I strongly want it to succeed. However, when you keep money away from the free software movement, such a movement cannot survive against people who actively charge money for binaries without source code. All power arises from concealment. When you understand a system very well, the power goes away and it looks ordinary. When GNU or libre movement asks contributors or volunteers (both fancy words for "work for me for free"), you present making libre software as a secondary thing rather than a central thing. When projects licensed GPLv3 rely almost completely on "donations" from other, you rely on the donor's generosity for getting food at your table. I really want people to remove reliance on external things and make GNU central and very active. So what's your point? FOSS is doing quite well. Apache powers the web. Postfix powers email. Linux, Python, ... And plenty of the bug guys pay good money to folks who crank out FOSS software. What's the point of pontificating & spouting counter-factual bullshit? Do you just like making a fool of yourself? Or am I missing something? Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [1][6]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [2][7]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-dis cuss References 1. [8]mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. [9]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus s ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [10]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [11]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu ss -- Ali Reza Hayati <[12]hay...@riseup.net> [13]www.alirezahayati.com ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [14]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [15]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. mailto:marinus.savorit
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement
I agree completely. We could attract people with an enjoyable experiece and the community feeling. We should investigate how FSF and GNU can improve these areas. Regards, MSavoritias On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 07:29, Yasuaki Kudo wrote: In a way, I think money is not even a big issue. I recently came across this article: [1]https://newrepublic.com/article/121832/pleasure-do-it-yourself-slow- computing Applying the "Slow Food" analogy, our point would not be pouring money so that it becomes "Less Slow" 😄 I would say, we need to have more people enjoy it. So in practical terms, we need to develop a huge communal kitchen, instead of an industrial food factory. The workers at food factory, or paid computer programmers at Microsoft, for example, would not go there were it not for the money. However, the people at communal kitchens at camping sites go there for the enjoyment of it! Free Software development should a very enjoyable activity and we should aim to develop a practical regime of constantly welcoming new participants, educating them and empowering them to enjoy and contribute meaningfully to the Fee Software ecosystem 😄 -Yasu On Jul 24, 2020, at 06:36, Msavoritias wrote: Mr Fidelman, Whether this person is or isn't correct doesn't matter. We should treat everybody respectfully otherwise we are alienating potential Free Software users from joining our community. Please try to be more polite in the future. MSavoritias On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 15:22, Miles Fidelman wrote: On 7/23/20 12:48 PM, Sagar Acharya via libreplanet-discuss wrote: I read "Free as in Freedom" by Richard Stallman and am a strong supporter of GNU project. I strongly want it to succeed. However, when you keep money away from the free software movement, such a movement cannot survive against people who actively charge money for binaries without source code. All power arises from concealment. When you understand a system very well, the power goes away and it looks ordinary. When GNU or libre movement asks contributors or volunteers (both fancy words for "work for me for free"), you present making libre software as a secondary thing rather than a central thing. When projects licensed GPLv3 rely almost completely on "donations" from other, you rely on the donor's generosity for getting food at your table. I really want people to remove reliance on external things and make GNU central and very active. So what's your point? FOSS is doing quite well. Apache powers the web. Postfix powers email. Linux, Python, ... And plenty of the bug guys pay good money to folks who crank out FOSS software. What's the point of pontificating & spouting counter-factual bullshit? Do you just like making a fool of yourself? Or am I missing something? Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [2]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://newrepublic.com/article/121832/pleasure-do-it-yourself-slow-computing ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Matrix communication protocol.
Hi, That was my assumption too. Especially as there is a request for packaging riot in the Guix Libreplanet page. From what I have heard it is basically the non-free addons and the Google Captca that seems to be the problem. The first is just a site that we don't have to connect or remove stuff from there. The second one they are working towards replacing it and I think we could patch it and remove it if needed. Regards MSavoritias On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 19:21, Jonathan Sandoval wrote: Msavoritias writes: Also I think having a bunch of semi-official channel using Non-FreeSoftware like Riot does't help anybody. I would like to ask is it in the works to have an official FSF/GNU server in the future? Are there any blockers I can help with? Disclaimer: I am NOT saying to use Riot or any other proprietary client. Hi, I was curious about you saying that Riot is not free software. I just checked their repository in github and it uses the Apache License. I'm working as a consultor for a company that it's building its product using Matrix (synaps) and Riot, and I though both of them were free (as in freedom) software with a permissive license. -- ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement
Every Critisism is valid. We shouldn't attack people because they don't know we should educate them. That is why FSF and all of us are here. To educate people on why we need Free Software. Nobody is going to listen to you with this attitude. MSavoritias On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 21:31, Miles Fidelman wrote: On 7/23/20 4:09 PM, Davis Remmel wrote: Miles Fidelman, what's the point of being so rude? Your comments were mostly un-constructive, and the fact that you aren't able to entertain the OP's opinions says a lot about your abilities to criticize. The OP has a good point, that free software is largely restricted by funding, and while you point out some large successful projects, most free software projects are not like that. A very topical conversation this month is about LibreOffice's funding. Some newbie know-nothing jumps in, mouths some uninformed bullshit opinion & rains on our parade, and I'm being rude? There's lots to be said about the economics of software development - free & otherwise - but bullshit is bullshit, and deserves to be called out. Otherwise, they don't learn nothin. Fie I say. Fie. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [2]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Matrix communication protocol.
Hi, I recently started to become involved in GNU and FSF by installing also Guix on system. I am part of the Guix Channel on Matrix. I created three channels on my server privacytools.io I know that there are some GNU channels on the matrix.org server but I went forth with creating one on my server. First for Decentralization reasons. Matrix.org is the biggest server. And second matrix.org is slow due to the number of users there. I noticed that there are a lot of GNU projects already there. Some of them are GUIX, Octave, Gnunet, a lot of GNU channels, Linux Libre and so forth. Also I noticed that it is in the roadmap for Guix to have all the Matrix packages in the repositories. Which a lot of them are already there. The benefits to me are first its a modern protocol with a lot of features. I know not everybody will want all these features though so we can al ways set up an IRC bridge to talk with people on the gnu IRC server. Second a lot of new users nowdays expect modern tooling and communication. I think integrating a Matrix server will be a great way to accomodate them. In a sense it will improve onboarding of new contributors. Granted we have a long way to go with that in my opinion, but Matrix is the first piece of the puzzle towards a bigger and more liveful FSF. Also I think having a bunch of semi-official channel using Non-FreeSoftware like Riot does't help anybody. I would like to ask is it in the works to have an official FSF/GNU server in the future? Are there any blockers I can help with? Disclaimer: I am NOT saying to use Riot or any other proprietary client. MSavoritias ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement
Mr Fidelman, Whether this person is or isn't correct doesn't matter. We should treat everybody respectfully otherwise we are alienating potential Free Software users from joining our community. Please try to be more polite in the future. MSavoritias On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 15:22, Miles Fidelman wrote: On 7/23/20 12:48 PM, Sagar Acharya via libreplanet-discuss wrote: I read "Free as in Freedom" by Richard Stallman and am a strong supporter of GNU project. I strongly want it to succeed. However, when you keep money away from the free software movement, such a movement cannot survive against people who actively charge money for binaries without source code. All power arises from concealment. When you understand a system very well, the power goes away and it looks ordinary. When GNU or libre movement asks contributors or volunteers (both fancy words for "work for me for free"), you present making libre software as a secondary thing rather than a central thing. When projects licensed GPLv3 rely almost completely on "donations" from other, you rely on the donor's generosity for getting food at your table. I really want people to remove reliance on external things and make GNU central and very active. So what's your point? FOSS is doing quite well. Apache powers the web. Postfix powers email. Linux, Python, ... And plenty of the bug guys pay good money to folks who crank out FOSS software. What's the point of pontificating & spouting counter-factual bullshit? Do you just like making a fool of yourself? Or am I missing something? Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [2]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
