[License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-08-25 Thread Chris Ochs
I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, if not I'd greatly
appreciate a pointer to the right one.

So I ran into a situation where a company isn't training their employees
very well and is causing all sorts of confusion and in some cases outright
license/copyright violations through what seems to be just simple ignorance.

Company in question has a popular piece of software.  They have a store
where developers can publish extensions and addons to this software.  It's
a huge success with thousands of addons and sales volumes probably into the
millions per month.

Some of these addons are themselves open source.  The majority of the time
the authors of these are not including the open source license.  Which I
think is legally ok, I'm guessing it actually just creates a dual license,
but not an attorney so not sure on this.

The problem is that other addons are including these open source addons.
Literally just copying them into their own distribution.  And they are not
including a copy of the license.  Most of the time not even aware of the
violation because the original author didn't include the license either.

The kicker is that the company has a practice where they decline your addon
if they know it has another addon, even if it's open source.  So publishers
are just including these other addons in a non standard way so that the
company won't notice and won't decline their addon.

If this seems confusing it's because it is.  The end result here is
conservatively thousands of these addons being distributed with open source
libraries that don't have licenses attached.  Just including the license in
a certain way (where the employees reviewing the addon can notice it) will
get it declined.

I'm interested in bringing attention to this in a way that makes them
change and looking for suggestions on the best way to do that.  But I don't
want to cause any trouble for the people that have submitted all of these
addons that are in violation.  Yes they should know better, but they
wouldn't be in the position they are if the company didn't have such a
crazy policy.
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-08-26 Thread Kevin Fleming
On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Chris Ochs  wrote:

> Some of these addons are themselves open source.  The majority of the time
> the authors of these are not including the open source license.  Which I
> think is legally ok, I'm guessing it actually just creates a dual license,
> but not an attorney so not sure on this.



Snip:
Some of these addons are themselves open source.  The majority of the time
the authors of these are not including the open source license.  Which I
think is legally ok, I'm guessing it actually just creates a dual license,
but not an attorney so not sure on this.

How do you know they are 'open source' if they don't include an open source
license? Are the completely original works, or do they contain works from
others that are distributed under open source licenses?
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-08-30 Thread Chris Ochs
I know they are open source because the authors have a website or github
repo with the open source license.   They just aren't including that
license in the copy that they release through this company.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Kevin Fleming 
wrote:

>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Chris Ochs  wrote:
>
>> Some of these addons are themselves open source.  The majority of the
>> time the authors of these are not including the open source license.  Which
>> I think is legally ok, I'm guessing it actually just creates a dual
>> license, but not an attorney so not sure on this.
>
>
>
> Snip:
> Some of these addons are themselves open source.  The majority of the time
> the authors of these are not including the open source license.  Which I
> think is legally ok, I'm guessing it actually just creates a dual license,
> but not an attorney so not sure on this.
>
> How do you know they are 'open source' if they don't include an open
> source license? Are the completely original works, or do they contain works
> from others that are distributed under open source licenses?
>
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-08-31 Thread Michael R. Bernstein
On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 11:54 AM, Chris Ochs  wrote:

> I know they are open source because the authors have a website or github
> repo with the open source license.   They just aren't including that
> license in the copy that they release through this company.


If they are the copyright holders to the code on Github, they may also
release it without a license through the company.

IANAL, TINLA, etc.

- Michael Bernstein
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-08-31 Thread Kevin Fleming
Right, this is potentially a 'dual-license' scenario, where the copyright
holders distribute the code under two (or more) distinct licenses, in
separate distributions. If you receive the code under a non-open-source
license, the presence of the same (or similar) code in another location
under an open source license isn't necessarily relevant; you got the code
with an attached license, so its terms apply to you. If you obtain the code
via other means, with an attached open source license, then that license's
terms apply to you.

This definitely sounds like an unnecessarily complicated situation, but in
the end, you can only use the code under the license terms that were
attached when you received it. If no license was attached, then you
probably don't have any rights to use it at all.

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Michael R. Bernstein <
mich...@fandomhome.com> wrote:

>
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 11:54 AM, Chris Ochs  wrote:
>
>> I know they are open source because the authors have a website or github
>> repo with the open source license.   They just aren't including that
>> license in the copy that they release through this company.
>
>
> If they are the copyright holders to the code on Github, they may also
> release it without a license through the company.
>
> IANAL, TINLA, etc.
>
> - Michael Bernstein
>
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-05 Thread Pamela Chestek

On 8/31/2015 5:42 PM, Kevin Fleming wrote:
> but in the end, you can only use the code under the license terms that
> were attached when you received it. If no license was attached, then
> you probably don't have any rights to use it at all.
I think this statement is a fallacy, but I'm happy to hear other
opinions. A license attaches to the intangible copyright, not to the
tangible copy of the work you received. So as long as I can show that
the same copyrighted work was available under a license, and that I am
in compliance with the license, then I am a licensed user no matter
where I got my copy of the work. The dual licensing scheme works because
of the lack of desire to comply with the terms of the alternate license
(going both ways, lack of interest in paying or lack of interest in
meeting the conditions of the FOSS license), not because of where you
got your copy of the code.

Pam

Pamela S. Chestek
Chestek Legal
PO Box 2492
Raleigh, NC 27602
919-800-8033
pam...@chesteklegal.com
www.chesteklegal.com
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-05 Thread John Cowan
Pamela Chestek scripsit:

> I think this statement is a fallacy, but I'm happy to hear other
> opinions. A license attaches to the intangible copyright, not to the
> tangible copy of the work you received. So as long as I can show that
> the same copyrighted work was available under a license, and that I am
> in compliance with the license, then I am a licensed user no matter
> where I got my copy of the work. 

That can't be right.  Consider a work available under GPL+proprietary
terms, where you get to do non-GPL things if you have paid.  Then it would
not be enough to show that the work was available under a proprietary
license to allow you to download it and do those things.

-- 
John Cowan  http://www.ccil.org/~cowanco...@ccil.org
How they ever reached any conclusion at all is starkly unknowable
to the human mind.--"Backstage Lensman", Randall Garrett
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-06 Thread Lawrence Rosen
John Cowan replied in response to Pam Chestek's comment:
> Consider a work available under GPL+proprietary terms, where you get to do 
> non-GPL things if you have paid.  Then it would not be enough to show that 
> the work was available under a proprietary license to allow you to download 
> it and do those things.


What non-GPL things are you talking about? Probably I'm just confused by the 
distinction you are trying to make with Pam. You've driven me into litigation 
fantasies

The author of a work can license it any confusing and profitable way she wants. 
She can dual- and triple-license it. She can even permit her customers to avoid 
conditions of the GPL under which she also licensed her original work. 

But a more general GPL work available publicly (e.g., Linux) is and remains 
under the GPL forever. Restricting copyright for that GPL work (or derivative 
works thereof) is not allowed by the author of the original GPL work. So says 
the GPL.

It becomes confusing when a company adds *incompatible* proprietary terms to 
the GPL for a publicly available work. Is this a contract that any company can 
negotiate with its customers? Is that ever effective at restricting GPL 
freedoms?

I think Pam is correct: "A license attaches to the intangible copyright, not to 
the tangible copy of the work you received." This means that, if you can find a 
GPL-licensed work in the wild, help yourself to it under the terms of the GPL 
even if you also bought a proprietary license somewhere. That is not a 
*copyright license* violation.

But I'd also try to avoid *contractual* litigation by never agreeing to 
*restrictive* proprietary contracts for GPL software. Don't contract away your 
free software. I've never seen anyone actually try to do that, which is why I'm 
confused by John Cowan's comment.

/Larry


-Original Message-
From: John Cowan [mailto:co...@mercury.ccil.org] 
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2015 11:25 AM
To: license-discuss@opensource.org
Subject: Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

Pamela Chestek scripsit:

> I think this statement is a fallacy, but I'm happy to hear other 
> opinions. A license attaches to the intangible copyright, not to the 
> tangible copy of the work you received. So as long as I can show that 
> the same copyrighted work was available under a license, and that I am 
> in compliance with the license, then I am a licensed user no matter 
> where I got my copy of the work.

That can't be right.  Consider a work available under GPL+proprietary terms, 
where you get to do non-GPL things if you have paid.  Then it would not be 
enough to show that the work was available under a proprietary license to allow 
you to download it and do those things.

-- 
John Cowan  http://www.ccil.org/~cowanco...@ccil.org
How they ever reached any conclusion at all is starkly unknowable
to the human mind.--"Backstage Lensman", Randall Garrett
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-06 Thread John Cowan
Lawrence Rosen scripsit:

> What non-GPL things are you talking about? 

Insofar as I can reconstruct my thinking of last night (post in
haste, repent at leisure), I was thinking of the ordinary proprietary
opt-out clause letting you incorporate Yoyodyne's library into your
binary-only program.  I suppose that Yoyodyne could require you to keep
the proprietary-licensed copy to yourself, even though it's bit-for-bit
identical with the GPLed version and has a common origin.

> But a more general GPL work available publicly (e.g., Linux) is and
> remains under the GPL forever. 

In my non-lawyer opinion, the irrevocability clause of GPL3 hasn't got a
leg to stand on.  If I put up a sign on my land saying PUBLIC ACCESS
PERMITTED and then take it down before prescription kicks in, the
fact that the sign also said THIS SIGN WILL NOT BE TAKEN DOWN doesn't
seem to help someone I sue for trespass, except through the exceedingly
dodgy mechanism of equitable estoppel (or quasi-contract in Roman lands).
Doubtless if they were actually in transit when I revoked the permission

> It becomes confusing when a company adds *incompatible* proprietary
> terms to the GPL for a publicly available work. Is this a contract that
> any company can negotiate with its customers? Is that ever effective
> at restricting GPL freedoms?

I admit that such a thing is economically improbable, but I don't see what
grounds a court would have for treating it as voidable, never mind void.
(I'm assuming that any contract under the GPL only kicks in when you
exploit a GPL right; otherwise the pre-announced GPL would be superseded
by the proprietary contract anyway.)

> But I'd also try to avoid *contractual* litigation by never agreeing
> to *restrictive* proprietary contracts for GPL software. Don't contract
> away your free software. I've never seen anyone actually try to do that,
> which is why I'm confused by John Cowan's comment.

I haven't heard of it either, but that may only be only because people
don't usually announce that they've been snookered.

-- 
John Cowan  http://www.ccil.org/~cowanco...@ccil.org
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then, I contradict myself.
I am large, I contain multitudes.
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-08 Thread Kevin Fleming
Pam, thanks for bringing your considerable legal attention to this, as I
find it fascinating :-)

The genesis of my statement (which I purposely left ambiguous because IANAL
and IANYL and many here are) is that a set of source files that do not have
any copyright/license statements included and a set that do have such
statements included could easily be considered *different works*, because
they contain different content. The content difference may be immaterial to
the usage of the code (it certainly doesn't affect compilation or execution
of the code), but it's still different. It might even be reasonable to
claim that the version with the statements is a derivative work of the one
without the statements, even if produced by the copyright holder(s).

Given that, if someone has a copy of the version without such statements,
I'd personally recommend (and certainly do in my day job) that finding
another copy elsewhere that has such statements is immaterial. This usually
doesn't matter when the discussion occurs before any potentially infringing
activity has occurred, since we can just tell the user to go download the
copy with the license statements, but after the fact I'd be quite surprised
that demonstrating the existence of the other copy would be sufficient.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:03 PM, John Cowan  wrote:

> Lawrence Rosen scripsit:
>
> > What non-GPL things are you talking about?
>
> Insofar as I can reconstruct my thinking of last night (post in
> haste, repent at leisure), I was thinking of the ordinary proprietary
> opt-out clause letting you incorporate Yoyodyne's library into your
> binary-only program.  I suppose that Yoyodyne could require you to keep
> the proprietary-licensed copy to yourself, even though it's bit-for-bit
> identical with the GPLed version and has a common origin.
>
> > But a more general GPL work available publicly (e.g., Linux) is and
> > remains under the GPL forever.
>
> In my non-lawyer opinion, the irrevocability clause of GPL3 hasn't got a
> leg to stand on.  If I put up a sign on my land saying PUBLIC ACCESS
> PERMITTED and then take it down before prescription kicks in, the
> fact that the sign also said THIS SIGN WILL NOT BE TAKEN DOWN doesn't
> seem to help someone I sue for trespass, except through the exceedingly
> dodgy mechanism of equitable estoppel (or quasi-contract in Roman lands).
> Doubtless if they were actually in transit when I revoked the
> permission
>
> > It becomes confusing when a company adds *incompatible* proprietary
> > terms to the GPL for a publicly available work. Is this a contract that
> > any company can negotiate with its customers? Is that ever effective
> > at restricting GPL freedoms?
>
> I admit that such a thing is economically improbable, but I don't see what
> grounds a court would have for treating it as voidable, never mind void.
> (I'm assuming that any contract under the GPL only kicks in when you
> exploit a GPL right; otherwise the pre-announced GPL would be superseded
> by the proprietary contract anyway.)
>
> > But I'd also try to avoid *contractual* litigation by never agreeing
> > to *restrictive* proprietary contracts for GPL software. Don't contract
> > away your free software. I've never seen anyone actually try to do that,
> > which is why I'm confused by John Cowan's comment.
>
> I haven't heard of it either, but that may only be only because people
> don't usually announce that they've been snookered.
>
> --
> John Cowan  http://www.ccil.org/~cowanco...@ccil.org
> Do I contradict myself?
> Very well then, I contradict myself.
> I am large, I contain multitudes.
> --Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-09 Thread Lawrence Rosen
John Cowan wrote about the word "forever" [1]:

> In my non-lawyer opinion, the irrevocability clause of GPL3 hasn't got a
leg to stand on.  If I put up a sign on my land saying PUBLIC ACCESS
PERMITTED and then take it down before prescription kicks in, the fact that
the sign also said THIS SIGN WILL NOT BE TAKEN DOWN doesn't seem to help
someone I sue for trespass, except through the exceedingly dodgy mechanism
of equitable estoppel (or quasi-contract in Roman lands).

Doubtless if they were actually in transit when I revoked the permission

 

Bending the words to suit my fancy, a GPL program intentionally posted by
its author somewhere on the web and freely copied by others is thereafter
"in transit."   I don't see how any author can successfully revoke a valid
GPL license for existing copies that she already placed in the wild.

 

Again you've sent me into litigation fantasies When is this ever a
problem?

 

/Larry

 

[1] Forever = "Single term of life plus 70 years (but if work is made for
hire or anonymous or pseudonymous, 95 years from the date of publication or
120 years from date of creation, whichever ends first)."
https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: John Cowan [mailto:co...@mercury.ccil.org] 
Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2015 10:04 AM
To: lro...@rosenlaw.com; license-discuss@opensource.org
Subject: Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations



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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-09 Thread Chris Ochs
I'm not an attorney but I'd think that a copyright itself cannot be
copyright protected.  And I would also think that no judge in the world is
going to hand out damages for something like this where the substantive
difference is absolutely zero.

Plus, the common case for most newer open source projects is that you don't
have notices on each file.

As a business person I look at how likely is something in the real world.
Sure an attorney can try to make any argument they want, but in order to
make that argument someone has to pay them to get all the way to court with
it.   IMO that's why there is often a lack of legal precedence for stuff
that seems obvious.  Because it is obvious and no one is going to pay good
money to be told the obvious (or at least very rarely so)

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Kevin Fleming 
wrote:

> Pam, thanks for bringing your considerable legal attention to this, as I
> find it fascinating :-)
>
> The genesis of my statement (which I purposely left ambiguous because
> IANAL and IANYL and many here are) is that a set of source files that do
> not have any copyright/license statements included and a set that do have
> such statements included could easily be considered *different works*,
> because they contain different content. The content difference may be
> immaterial to the usage of the code (it certainly doesn't affect
> compilation or execution of the code), but it's still different. It might
> even be reasonable to claim that the version with the statements is a
> derivative work of the one without the statements, even if produced by the
> copyright holder(s).
>
> Given that, if someone has a copy of the version without such statements,
> I'd personally recommend (and certainly do in my day job) that finding
> another copy elsewhere that has such statements is immaterial. This usually
> doesn't matter when the discussion occurs before any potentially infringing
> activity has occurred, since we can just tell the user to go download the
> copy with the license statements, but after the fact I'd be quite surprised
> that demonstrating the existence of the other copy would be sufficient.
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:03 PM, John Cowan  wrote:
>
>> Lawrence Rosen scripsit:
>>
>> > What non-GPL things are you talking about?
>>
>> Insofar as I can reconstruct my thinking of last night (post in
>> haste, repent at leisure), I was thinking of the ordinary proprietary
>> opt-out clause letting you incorporate Yoyodyne's library into your
>> binary-only program.  I suppose that Yoyodyne could require you to keep
>> the proprietary-licensed copy to yourself, even though it's bit-for-bit
>> identical with the GPLed version and has a common origin.
>>
>> > But a more general GPL work available publicly (e.g., Linux) is and
>> > remains under the GPL forever.
>>
>> In my non-lawyer opinion, the irrevocability clause of GPL3 hasn't got a
>> leg to stand on.  If I put up a sign on my land saying PUBLIC ACCESS
>> PERMITTED and then take it down before prescription kicks in, the
>> fact that the sign also said THIS SIGN WILL NOT BE TAKEN DOWN doesn't
>> seem to help someone I sue for trespass, except through the exceedingly
>> dodgy mechanism of equitable estoppel (or quasi-contract in Roman lands).
>> Doubtless if they were actually in transit when I revoked the
>> permission
>>
>> > It becomes confusing when a company adds *incompatible* proprietary
>> > terms to the GPL for a publicly available work. Is this a contract that
>> > any company can negotiate with its customers? Is that ever effective
>> > at restricting GPL freedoms?
>>
>> I admit that such a thing is economically improbable, but I don't see what
>> grounds a court would have for treating it as voidable, never mind void.
>> (I'm assuming that any contract under the GPL only kicks in when you
>> exploit a GPL right; otherwise the pre-announced GPL would be superseded
>> by the proprietary contract anyway.)
>>
>> > But I'd also try to avoid *contractual* litigation by never agreeing
>> > to *restrictive* proprietary contracts for GPL software. Don't contract
>> > away your free software. I've never seen anyone actually try to do that,
>> > which is why I'm confused by John Cowan's comment.
>>
>> I haven't heard of it either, but that may only be only because people
>> don't usually announce that they've been snookered.
>>
>> --
>> John Cowan  http://www.ccil.org/~cowanco...@ccil.org
>> Do I contradict myself?
>> Very well then, I contradict myself.
>> I am large, I contain multitudes.
>> --Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
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>>
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-10 Thread John Cowan
Lawrence Rosen scripsit:

> Bending the words to suit my fancy, a GPL program intentionally posted
> by its author somewhere on the web and freely copied by others is
> thereafter "in transit."  I don't see how any author can successfully
> revoke a valid GPL license for existing copies that she already placed
> in the wild.

There might be practical difficulties about notifying the relevant
licensees or potential licensees, leading to the estoppel scenario I
mentioned, but licenses are in general fully revocable by the owner.
Indeed, courts have held that even words like "I hereby grant you the
permanent right to [whatever] on my property" create only a license, not
an easement (a servitude to the distinguished civilians on this list).

> Again you've sent me into litigation fantasies When is this ever a
> problem?

Consider the author John M. Ford, who died leaving a substantial body of
work, much of it excellent science fiction.  Alas, he died intestate,
and control of his work has fallen into the hands of his family, who
deeply disapproved of him, his life, and his work, and are determined
to see it perish in oblivion.  You would cry too if it happened to
you.  (Well, *you* wouldn't, Larry, because you know better than to die
intestate, but in general, it's a problem.)

-- 
John Cowan  http://www.ccil.org/~cowanco...@ccil.org
The Imperials are decadent, 300 pound free-range chickens (except they have
teeth, arms instead of wings, and dinosaurlike tails).  --Elyse Grasso
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-16 Thread Pamela Chestek


On 9/5/2015 2:24 PM, John Cowan wrote:
> Pamela Chestek scripsit:
>
>> I think this statement is a fallacy, but I'm happy to hear other
>> opinions. A license attaches to the intangible copyright, not to the
>> tangible copy of the work you received. So as long as I can show that
>> the same copyrighted work was available under a license, and that I am
>> in compliance with the license, then I am a licensed user no matter
>> where I got my copy of the work. 
> That can't be right.  Consider a work available under GPL+proprietary
> terms, where you get to do non-GPL things if you have paid.  Then it would
> not be enough to show that the work was available under a proprietary
> license to allow you to download it and do those things.
>
Sure I could, if it was a license that was offered to me and I complied
with the terms (including paying); my performance manifested my
acceptance of the offer. Same with a FOSS license, it is an offer and I
accept through performance.

Pam

Pamela S. Chestek
Chestek Legal
PO Box 2492
Raleigh, NC 27602
919-800-8033
pam...@chesteklegal.com
www.chesteklegal.com
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-16 Thread Pamela Chestek

On 9/6/2015 1:03 PM, John Cowan wrote:
> Lawrence Rosen scripsit:
>
>> What non-GPL things are you talking about? 
> Insofar as I can reconstruct my thinking of last night (post in
> haste, repent at leisure), I was thinking of the ordinary proprietary
> opt-out clause letting you incorporate Yoyodyne's library into your
> binary-only program.  I suppose that Yoyodyne could require you to keep
> the proprietary-licensed copy to yourself, even though it's bit-for-bit
> identical with the GPLed version and has a common origin.
Well, since you can't (or don't want to) comply with the copyleft
provision, you can't rely on the FOSS license, so you have to comply
with whatever other license you can get, which may include not
disclosing the code. Although that seems kind of silly to require, since
the code is public.

>
>> But a more general GPL work available publicly (e.g., Linux) is and
>> remains under the GPL forever. 
> In my non-lawyer opinion, the irrevocability clause of GPL3 hasn't got a
> leg to stand on.  If I put up a sign on my land saying PUBLIC ACCESS
> PERMITTED and then take it down before prescription kicks in, the
> fact that the sign also said THIS SIGN WILL NOT BE TAKEN DOWN doesn't
> seem to help someone I sue for trespass, except through the exceedingly
> dodgy mechanism of equitable estoppel (or quasi-contract in Roman lands).
> Doubtless if they were actually in transit when I revoked the permission
Doesn't that mean that the word "irrevocable" is meaningless? We don't
like words without meaning in contracts, especially one so central to
the entire premise of free software.

>
>> It becomes confusing when a company adds *incompatible* proprietary
>> terms to the GPL for a publicly available work. Is this a contract that
>> any company can negotiate with its customers? Is that ever effective
>> at restricting GPL freedoms?
> I admit that such a thing is economically improbable, but I don't see what
> grounds a court would have for treating it as voidable, never mind void.
> (I'm assuming that any contract under the GPL only kicks in when you
> exploit a GPL right; otherwise the pre-announced GPL would be superseded
> by the proprietary contract anyway.)
If you're not getting any benefit not already available under the GPL
then I would argue the proprietary contract is void for lack of
consideration.

>
>> But I'd also try to avoid *contractual* litigation by never agreeing
>> to *restrictive* proprietary contracts for GPL software. Don't contract
>> away your free software. I've never seen anyone actually try to do that,
>> which is why I'm confused by John Cowan's comment.
> I haven't heard of it either, but that may only be only because people
> don't usually announce that they've been snookered.
Java BCL, anyone?

Pam

Pamela S. Chestek
Chestek Legal
PO Box 2492
Raleigh, NC 27602
919-800-8033
pam...@chesteklegal.com
www.chesteklegal.com
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-16 Thread Pamela Chestek

On 9/8/2015 5:14 PM, Kevin Fleming wrote:
> The genesis of my statement (which I purposely left ambiguous because
> IANAL and IANYL and many here are) is that a set of source files that
> do not have any copyright/license statements included and a set that
> do have such statements included could easily be considered *different
> works*, because they contain different content. The content difference
> may be immaterial to the usage of the code (it certainly doesn't
> affect compilation or execution of the code), but it's still
> different. It might even be reasonable to claim that the version with
> the statements is a derivative work of the one without the statements,
> even if produced by the copyright holder(s).
Interesting theory. I would say not though, because the addition of the
copyright/license statements are not original enough to make the new
work with the addition or omission a derivative work, and also for the
reasons you mention, that they don't actually affect the work. It would
be like saying that a second edition, with new title page listing the
new year of publication and different publisher, would be a derivative
work of, or a different work from, the first edition. Without doing any
legal research (which is guaranteed to get me into trouble), my guess is
that courts have decided that insignificant changes don't make it a new
work.[1]
> Given that, if someone has a copy of the version without such
> statements, I'd personally recommend (and certainly do in my day job)
> that finding another copy elsewhere that has such statements is
> immaterial. This usually doesn't matter when the discussion occurs
> before any potentially infringing activity has occurred, since we can
> just tell the user to go download the copy with the license
> statements, but after the fact I'd be quite surprised that
> demonstrating the existence of the other copy would be sufficient.
This is one of my favorite subjects, whether to have a license you need
to know that it existed at the time you copied or not. I don't think so,
the copyright owner put the work out there with a promise not to sue, so
I don't know why I would need to be aware of the promise to claim the
benefit of it.

Pam

Pamela S. Chestek
Chestek Legal
PO Box 2492
Raleigh, NC 27602
919-800-8033
pam...@chesteklegal.com
www.chesteklegal.com

[1] Ok, I lied. It rang a bell and I looked it up. Not quite on all
fours but in the recent Creative Commons case where the photographer
argued that cropping his photo created a derivative work, the court said
"Any discernible cropping appears to be 'so minor and insubstantial that
as a matter of law it falls within that degree of latitude afforded
licensees to alter a copyrighted work to suit their style or the medium
in which the work is presented.'" /Drauglis v. Kappa Map Group, LLC,/
2015 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 108992, *21 (D.D.C. Aug. 18, 2015).
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-16 Thread John Cowan
Pamela Chestek scripsit:

> Doesn't that mean that the word "irrevocable" is meaningless? We don't
> like words without meaning in contracts, especially one so central to
> the entire premise of free software.

It's my view (and I'm not alone in this) that the vast majority of free
software licenses are not contracts at all, and are like licenses to
enter upon land: that is, they are permissions by the owner to do things
that would otherwise be forbidden to all by the owner's proprietary rights
in the property.  As such, they are not supported by consideration and
can be revoked at the will of the licensor.  Most proprietary licenses
are not like this: the license is provided in exchange for obvious
consideration in the form of money paid by the licensee.

The licenses written by Larry truly are contracts, and are exempt from
this view of mine.

> Java BCL, anyone?

Who knows what secret source, or sauce, might underlie the current binary
releases of Java?  (The Shadow knows.)

IANA, TINLA, but this is not UPL either.

-- 
John Cowan  http://www.ccil.org/~cowanco...@ccil.org
Yes, chili in the eye is bad, but so is your ear.  However, I would
suggest you wash your hands thoroughly before going to the toilet.
--gadicath
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-16 Thread John Cowan
Pamela Chestek scripsit:

> This is one of my favorite subjects, whether to have a license you need
> to know that it existed at the time you copied or not. I don't think so,
> the copyright owner put the work out there with a promise not to sue, so
> I don't know why I would need to be aware of the promise to claim the
> benefit of it.

On my view, of course, you don't need to know, because meeting of the minds
is a contract idea, and licenses are not contracts.  The license is a bit
more than a covenant not to sue, though: it's affirmative permission to
do things, not merely a promise (which may or may not rise to a contract)
not to try to punish the doers of those things.

-- 
John Cowan  http://www.ccil.org/~cowanco...@ccil.org
A male Jang appeared at my side.  "Get a grip on yourself," he said.
"Get a grip on your graks," I suggested.  --Tanith Lee, Drinking Sapphire Wine
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-18 Thread Pamela Chestek

On 9/16/2015 11:32 PM, John Cowan wrote:
>> Doesn't that mean that the word "irrevocable" is meaningless? We don't
>> like words without meaning in contracts, especially one so central to
>> the entire premise of free software.
> It's my view (and I'm not alone in this) that the vast majority of free
> software licenses are not contracts at all, and are like licenses to
> enter upon land: that is, they are permissions by the owner to do things
> that would otherwise be forbidden to all by the owner's proprietary rights
> in the property.  As such, they are not supported by consideration and
> can be revoked at the will of the licensor.  Most proprietary licenses
> are not like this: the license is provided in exchange for obvious
> consideration in the form of money paid by the licensee.
Without entering into that quagmire (other than to quote Heather Meeker,
"The Free Software Foundation has long taken the position that open
source licenses are licenses rather than contracts -- however, this can
be misleading because the two are not mutually exclusive. Most licensing
contracts are both conditional licenses and contracts"), my use of the
word "contract" was simply inapt. The principle applies in the
interpretation of all types legal documents.

Pam


Pamela S. Chestek
Chestek Legal
PO Box 2492
Raleigh, NC 27602
919-800-8033
pam...@chesteklegal.com
www.chesteklegal.com
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-18 Thread John Cowan
Pamela Chestek scripsit:

> Without entering into that quagmire [...]  my use of the word "contract"
> was simply inapt. The principle applies in the interpretation of all
> types legal documents.

Sure.  But if it is not meaningless, what does it mean?  Since the right
of an owner to revoke a bare license is inherent, it must be a promise
not to exercise that right, and on what meeting of the minds, what
consideration is that promise founded?  Looks like a nudum pactum to me.

-- 
John Cowan  http://www.ccil.org/~cowanco...@ccil.org
Is it not written, "That which is written, is written"?
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Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

2015-09-19 Thread Lawrence Rosen
John, an open source license is not a nudum pactum. Consideration abounds in 
FOSS. Paraphrasing Wikipedia (the easy source for all law references):

 

The Jacobsen v. Katzer case is noteworthy in United States copyright law 
because Courts clarified the enforceability of licensing agreements on both 
open-source software and proprietary software. The case established the rule of 
law that terms and conditions of an Artistic License are "enforceable copyright 
conditions".

 

/Larry

 

 

-Original Message-
From: John Cowan [mailto:co...@mercury.ccil.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 1:01 PM
To: license-discuss@opensource.org
Subject: Re: [License-discuss] Companies that encourage license violations

 

Pamela Chestek scripsit:

 

> Without entering into that quagmire [...]  my use of the word "contract"

> was simply inapt. The principle applies in the interpretation of all 

> types legal documents.

 

Sure.  But if it is not meaningless, what does it mean?  Since the right of an 
owner to revoke a bare license is inherent, it must be a promise not to 
exercise that right, and on what meeting of the minds, what consideration is 
that promise founded?  Looks like a nudum pactum to me.

 

-- 

John Cowan   <http://www.ccil.org/~cowan> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
 <mailto:co...@ccil.org> co...@ccil.org

Is it not written, "That which is written, is written"?

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