Re: Lilypond-book

[Conor Cook]

My apologies for the influx.  I wanted to make sure that the information I 
stupidly left off the list by not replaying all was made available.

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Br. Samuel Springuel" 
Subject: Re: Lilypond-book
Date: March 24, 2014 at 10:01:33 AM CDT
To: Conor Cook , lilypond-user@gnu.org

> However, I have an especially large score I’d like to see rotated 90 degrees 
> (so the bottom is to the right).  How might I make that happen?

That's not something I have any experience with.  Can't help you there.

Which, naturally, is one of the reasons why I prefer to echo all my responses 
to the mailing list.  The other is so that anyone searching the archive for 
answers to similar questions can find them.

I really only keep things off-list when they're off topic or require sharing 
private information.

✝
Br. Samuel
(R. Padraic Springuel)

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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Fwd: Lilypond-book

[Conor Cook]

Begin forwarded message:

From: Conor Cook 
Subject: Re: Lilypond-book
Date: March 23, 2014 at 9:35:35 PM CDT
To: "Br. Samuel Springuel" 

Well, I do have Xcode, but I’ll look into that more later.

I’m starting to see what kind of .ly file the various lilypond-book options 
want to see (fragment doesn’t like \layout {…}, e.g.).  However, I have an 
especially large score I’d like to see rotated 90 degrees (so the bottom is to 
the right).  How might I make that happen?

If you’d rather I bring this discussion back into the user-list, I’m happy to 
do so.

Thank you, again, Brother!

Peace of Christ,
Conor

On Mar 23, 2014, at 9:20 PM, Br. Samuel Springuel  wrote:

> On 2014-03-23 9:49 PM, Conor Cook wrote:
>> I suppose I no longer need to try using the command line method, but
>> I did want to mention that my efforts to follow the LilyPond right
>> hand column instructions have proved fruitless.  I follow the
>> instructions up to chmod, but it gives me:
>> 
>> -bash: chmod: command not found
>> 
>> Maybe I just shouldn’t worry about it.
> 
> Huh.  I've never seen that behavior before.  The only thing I can think
> of is perhaps chmod is a developer tool.  In which case you would need
> to get Xcode (it's free in the App Store) and install the command line
> tools (in the Downloads pane of the Preferences).  If you want to worry
> about it, that is.
> 
>> I am curious, however, whether using LilyPond-Book in TeXworks is all
>> I would need to do to create a paper with music examples, or should I
>> figure out how to incorporate multiple files into one main LaTeX
>> document, using LilyPond-Book only for examples (like in Gregorio; I
>> think I recognize you from those discussions, Brother)?
> 
> With LilyPond-Book it's possible to include as many scores as you want
> in a single document.  There are three ways of doing so, each geared
> towards a particular size score (short snippet, long snippet, or full
> length score).  Those ways are explained here
> 
> http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/usage/latex
> 
> Use whatever way best suits the particular score you're inserting at a
> given point.  There is no restriction on mixing and matching.
> 
> Since you mention Gregorio, yes, I'm over on that list too, and again
> there is no restriction on the number of included scores in a LaTeX
> document.  Further, mixing LilyPond and Gregorio should be possible
> using my engines in the Gregorio svn.  I haven't fully tested them in
> TeXworks yet (it's on my list of things to do later this week) but my
> preliminary tests were successful.  If you try them and find a bug let me 
> know.  It will speed up my testing.
> 
> ✝
> Br. Samuel
> (R. Padraic Springuel)
> 
> PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ


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Fwd: Lilypond-book

[Conor Cook]

From: "Br. Samuel Springuel" 
Subject: Re: Lilypond-book
Date: March 23, 2014 at 9:20:21 PM CDT
To: Conor Cook 
Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org

On 2014-03-23 9:49 PM, Conor Cook wrote:
> I suppose I no longer need to try using the command line method, but
> I did want to mention that my efforts to follow the LilyPond right
> hand column instructions have proved fruitless.  I follow the
> instructions up to chmod, but it gives me:
> 
> -bash: chmod: command not found
> 
> Maybe I just shouldn’t worry about it.

Huh.  I've never seen that behavior before.  The only thing I can think
of is perhaps chmod is a developer tool.  In which case you would need
to get Xcode (it's free in the App Store) and install the command line
tools (in the Downloads pane of the Preferences).  If you want to worry
about it, that is.

> I am curious, however, whether using LilyPond-Book in TeXworks is all
> I would need to do to create a paper with music examples, or should I
> figure out how to incorporate multiple files into one main LaTeX
> document, using LilyPond-Book only for examples (like in Gregorio; I
> think I recognize you from those discussions, Brother)?

With LilyPond-Book it's possible to include as many scores as you want
in a single document.  There are three ways of doing so, each geared
towards a particular size score (short snippet, long snippet, or full
length score).  Those ways are explained here

http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/usage/latex

Use whatever way best suits the particular score you're inserting at a
given point.  There is no restriction on mixing and matching.

Since you mention Gregorio, yes, I'm over on that list too, and again
there is no restriction on the number of included scores in a LaTeX
document.  Further, mixing LilyPond and Gregorio should be possible
using my engines in the Gregorio svn.  I haven't fully tested them in
TeXworks yet (it's on my list of things to do later this week) but my
preliminary tests were successful.  If you try them and find a bug let me know. 
 It will speed up my testing.

✝
Br. Samuel
(R. Padraic Springuel)

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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Fwd: Lilypond-book

[Conor Cook]

From: Conor Cook 
Subject: Re: Lilypond-book
Date: March 23, 2014 at 8:49:17 PM CDT
To: "Br. Samuel Springuel" 

Dear Br. Samuel,

Thank you.  I successfully installed the engine and will explore its use in 
TeXworks.  I suppose I no longer need to try using the command line method, but 
I did want to mention that my efforts to follow the LilyPond right hand column 
instructions have proved fruitless.  I follow the instructions up to chmod, but 
it gives me:

-bash: chmod: command not found

Maybe I just shouldn’t worry about it.

I am curious, however, whether using LilyPond-Book in TeXworks is all I would 
need to do to create a paper with music examples, or should I figure out how to 
incorporate multiple files into one main LaTeX document, using LilyPond-Book 
only for examples (like in Gregorio; I think I recognize you from those 
discussions, Brother)?

Thank you, again, Br. Samuel.

God bless you,
Conor

On Mar 23, 2014, at 8:04 PM, Br. Samuel Springuel  wrote:

>> When I use TeXworks to create the .lytex file, I don’t know what
>> typesetting tool to use (pdfLaTeX?)
> 
> You use the lilypond-book typesetting tool.  Since this tool doesn't
> come setup in TeXworks by default, you have to add it.  Given your
> reference to terminal I assume that you're using Mac OSX.  In that case
> the easiest way to set things up is grab the TeXShop engines from
> 
> https://sole.dimi.uniud.it/~nicola.vitacolonna/software/lilypond-texshop/
> 
> They work in TeXworks just as well as in TeXShop.  Place these in
> ~/Library/TeXworks/engines (you may have to create this folder).  Then
> in TeXworks open the preferences and go to the typesetting tab.  Click
> on the "+" in the lower pane to add a new engine.  Call the processing
> tool LilyPond-Book and browse to the LilyPond-Book.engine file that you
> just got.  Add $fullname as the argument and click OK until you're back
> at the main program.  Now you should be able to select LilyPond-Book
> from the drop down menu of TeX processors and compile your file.
> 
>> when I try to typeset it, it says:
>> 
>> ! LaTeX Error: Environment lilypond undefined.
> 
> This error results from not running the lilypond-book processor.  The
> lilypond environment isn't defined by any class or style file so
> pdflatex (or any other latex processor) doesn't know what to do with it.
> lilypond-book actually removes these environments, runs their contents
> through lilypond, and replaces them by the resulting graphic in the
> background.
> 
>> or
>> 
>> ! LaTeX Error: \begin{[} on input line 5 ended by \end{lilypond}.
>> 
> 
> This error is because you changed your \begin{lilypond} to \begin{[}.
> Even though the lilypond environment isn't a real latex environment, you
> still need to treat it as such.
> 
> Then, when I just save the file as .lytex and run lilypond-book in the
> Terminal, I get:
> 
> -bash: lilypond-book: command not found
> 
> This means the location of lilypond-book isn't in path and you're not in
> the folder where it's located.  This isn't an unusual situation as
> lilypond-book is inside the LilyPond.app that you should have placed in
> your Applications folder.  If you want to run any of the lilypond
> scripts from the command line then you need to follow the instructions
> in the right hand column here:
> 
> http://www.lilypond.org/macos-x.html
> 
> Note that if you want to stick with the GUI interfaces (either
> LilyPond's own or TeXworks) then you don't need to follow these
> instructions.
> 
> ✝
> Br. Samuel
> (R. Padraic Springuel)
> 
> PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ
> 
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Re: chordname questions

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 2:46 PM, Gerry Prosser wrote:

>
> 2. Having looked further, I do think that some chords are generating
> incorrect chord names (but correct notes): C:sus prints as C, C:2 as Csus2,
> C:3 as C and C:4 as C4sus4add3
>
> Could I ask you to please run the attached snippet to check my findings ?
> (I am running 2.19.3)
>
> thanks, Gerry
>

Yes, I get the same printed chord names you describe.


I'm not sure I would call any of them "incorrect" given your input chord
specification:

duffChords = \chordmode { c1:sus c:2 c:3 c:4 }

I think that the number generally means the highest interval, so when you
say c:2 and c:3, you are just specifying an interval (2 notes) rather than
a full chord.  Lily's open fifth for c:sus seems reasonable to me.  Not
sure what you'd expect from c:4.  ?  Lily's output seems redundant
(why 4...and then sus4?), but otherwise seems to be trying to make the best
of something uncommon and possibly confusing.

If you want to get a printed "sus4" from lily, try:

duffChords = \chordmode { c1:sus4 }


If you want to change the output chord symbols, here is the short version:

Get a template for a file where you name the chords.  You can try my fussy
one (http://flaminghakama.com/flaming-lilypond-chords), or use another
alternate file (see
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Jazz-Chord-Symbols-td10516.html for
example)


Then in your music file:

\include "flaming-chords.ly" % (or some other library)
\set chordNameExceptions = #chExceptions



Finally, to update what the names of the chords are, modify the chord file
as you like:

flamingChordNames = {

% for the input notation "c:sus4".  Change the "sus" to something else if
you want
1-\markup { \raise #0.7 { \normalsize "sus" } }

}
chExceptions = #(append (sequential-music-to-chord-exceptions
flamingChordNames #t) ignatzekExceptions)
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Re: Exact stem length?

[Piaras Hoban]

>

The attached might be of help.

It's still work in progress as it needs to allow for slurs and staccato
dots.

Would be great if some others can help improve it.

all the best,

piaras




On 25 March 2014 12:45, Fredrik Wallberg  wrote:

> > ...a way to override the distance between notehead and stem...
>
> \override Stem.Y-offset = 2
>
> (Sorry about the typos in my last message -- I wrote "beam lenghts"; I
> meant "stem lengths of beamed notes".)
>
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>


repeat-stems.ly
Description: Binary data
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Re: chordname questions

[Gerry Prosser]

Thanks for the swift and helpful response ...

1. you are right that '6 add9' and 'add6 add 9' are indeed equivalent - I
was looking at the wrong entry in the table in the Notation Reference.

2. Having looked further, I do think that some chords are generating
incorrect chord names (but correct notes): C:sus prints as C, C:2 as Csus2,
C:3 as C and C:4 as C4sus4add3

Could I ask you to please run the attached snippet to check my findings ?
(I am running 2.19.3)

thanks, Gerry


On 25 March 2014 00:50, Flaming Hakama by Elaine
wrote:

> Gerry,
>
> > I'm a clarinettist - we are not supposed to do chords, so please forgive
> me
> > if these are idiot questions 
>
> As a clarinettist, I feel compelled to assert that we have the capacity to
> do chords just fine.  I hope you are getting more comfortable with it.
>
>
>
> > 1. the superscript modifier 6/9 is (from a google search) equivalent to
> > 'add6 add9'. Yet lily puts it into the score as '6 add9' which is surely
> > not the same thing at all ?
>
> Actually, I think that these are the same, meaning the chord made up of
> scale degrees 1 3 5 6 9.
>
> One thing to realize is that the way that lilypond prints chord symbols is
> different from how it represents chords interally.  In this case, you can
> modify lilypond to print "add6 add9" for this type of chord if you want.
>
> In terms of theory, the notion of "add" comes into play when the numbers
> get beyond 7, since by convention (both in general musical practice, and in
> lilypond) anything above or including an unmodified 7 implies that a
> dominant 7th is in the chord.
>
> So, for any number less than 7, you can just write that degree after the
> chord root name, since you don't have to worry about what someone might do
> with the 7th, because you have not gone that high.  You can make the case
> that "add 6" is too verbose and perhaps confusing, since "6" gets the point
> across, and the "add" could make you think for a moment that the extension
> is actually higher than a 7th, which it is not. (unless, of course, you
> really mean 13).  This is probably why the default lilypond chord symbol is
> "6 add9" rather than "add6 add9".
>
>
> > 2. the 'sus' modifier should be followed by '2' or '4' and if lily finds
> > sus on its own it just puts out the basic triad. But some scores include
> > all three forms - triad, sus and sus4 implying that they are different.
> > Shouldn't the unmodified sus  generate just the first and fifth ?
> > (specifying ^3 also seems to generate the full triad).
>
> Suspended "chords" are an area where I think there is less general
> agreement (in musical practice) about what they mean.
>
> My general understanding about musical practice is that "sus" simply means
> "there is no 3rd in this 'chord'".  The most typical implication is that
> you are sounding the 4th instead of the 3rd, meaning scale degrees 1 4 5.
>
> However, like many things about the way lilypond represents chords, it is
> a balance between being unambiguous versus following some flavor of common
> usage.  And in lilypond, the unambiguous often wins out.  In this case,
> lilypond makes you specify what note is taking the place of the 3rd.
>
> Not sure I understand why the default behavior of specifying sus without
> another scale degree gives you a triad (it is certainly not based on
> typical musical interpretation of sus chords), but again, you have to
> realize that the chord input syntax is lilypond-specific and different than
> the dialect of printed chord symbols.
>
> Not quite sure what you mean by scores that have chord symbols that say
> "triad".  Never seen that before.  In fact, until coming across lilypond, I
> have never seen anyone write a "sus 2" chord. Just because you have seen
> something in a score--especially chord changes--doesn't mean that it is
> normal, accepted and well-understood.  It could just be inconsistent.  In
> any case, I would assume that both the "sus" and "sus4" mean the same thing.
>
>
> I hope this helps,
>
> David Elaine Alt
> 415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
> highly underrated*"
> ela...@flaminghakama.com
> skype: flaming_hakama
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
%% Generated by lilypond-book.py
%% Options: [exampleindent=10.16\mm,indent=0\mm,line-width=160\mm,quote,ragged-right]
\include "lilypond-book-preamble.ly"


% 
% Start cut-&-pastable-section
% 



\paper {
  indent = 0\mm
  line-width = 160\mm
  % offset the left padding, also add 1mm as lilypond creates cropped
  % images with a little space on the right
  line-width = #(- line-width (* mm  3.00) (* mm 1))
  line-width = 160\mm - 2.0 * 10.16\mm
  % offset the left padding, also add 1mm as lilypond creates cropped
  % images with a little space on the right
  line-width

Re: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 136, Issue 121

[MING TSANG]

Gilles,
Thank you very much for the updated version.  It works wonder for my lilypond 
score transcribe need. It saves me time and efforts. Just super.  The 
chord-doc.pdf helps a lot. Thanks again.
Emmanuel,
Ming



On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 12:02:52 PM, "lilypond-user-requ...@gnu.org" 
 wrote:
 

   2. Re:entering chords (Gilles)
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:27:36 +0100
From: Gilles 
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: entering chords
Message-ID: <3722075.j3IU32Mb4Z@pc-i3>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Le dimanche 23 mars 2014, 03:59:21 MING TSANG a ?crit :
> c:  the sample .ly has several functions -\extractNotes ; \ePU ; ePL etc.
> and I find several things I don't understand.  please refer to .pdf file.
Dear Ming.
As it seems that some points are not enough clear about "chord.ly", I tried to 
make a little doc about the functions contained in this file. You can download 
"chord-doc.pdf" here :
http://gillesth.free.fr/Lilypond/chord/

You'll find also in this directory, the last version of "chord.ly"
In this subject, I have to apologize to you about the file "chord.ly" I send to 
you in this thread :
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-03/msg00317.html
The \extractVoice function required an integer as parameter but an old version 
required a decimal number ! So your mistake was my fault. Sorry.
Actually, there was here 2 features.
So in this last version there is 2 functions :
\extractVoice that requires an integer.
\deepExtractVoice that requires a decimal number
See the doc to know the difference.
Feel free to ask some precisions here if you need it.

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Re: entering chords

[Gilles]

Le dimanche 23 mars 2014, 03:59:21 MING TSANG a écrit :
> c:  the sample .ly has several functions -\extractNotes ; \ePU ; ePL etc.
> and I find several things I don't understand.  please refer to .pdf file.
Dear Ming.
As it seems that some points are not enough clear about "chord.ly", I tried to 
make a little doc about the functions contained in this file. You can download 
"chord-doc.pdf" here :
http://gillesth.free.fr/Lilypond/chord/

You'll find also in this directory, the last version of "chord.ly"
In this subject, I have to apologize to you about the file "chord.ly" I send to 
you in this thread :
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-03/msg00317.html
The \extractVoice function required an integer as parameter but an old version 
required a decimal number ! So your mistake was my fault. Sorry.
Actually, there was here 2 features.
So in this last version there is 2 functions :
\extractVoice that requires an integer.
\deepExtractVoice that requires a decimal number
See the doc to know the difference.
Feel free to ask some precisions here if you need it.

-- Gilles

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Re: Exact stem length?

[Fredrik Wallberg]

> ...a way to override the distance between notehead and stem...

\override Stem.Y-offset = 2

(Sorry about the typos in my last message -- I wrote "beam lenghts"; I
meant "stem lengths of beamed notes".)

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Re: Exact stem length?

[Urs Liska]

I'll try your suggestions later today.

Regarding the length of stems there are two different approaches that might 
well go into different functions:

A)
Have a group that is defined by the beam's slope (or its start and end 
pitches). For this I'd need stems of equal length.

B)
Shaping the gesture through individual pitches. For this of course the stems 
aren't of the same length. But also in this case it might be nice to be able to 
print differently long stems that don't have "steps" of a whole scale-step.

Urs

Fredrik Wallberg  schrieb am 25.03.2014:
>Hi Urs,
>
>> - How could I remove the gap between the first two stems?
>
>Maybe try with a temporary
>
>\set Score.proportionalNotationDuration = #(ly:make-moment 1 8)
>
>for that particular group of notes?
>As for the beam lengths, I'm not sure what the best solution would be
>--
>
>\override Stem.details.beamed-lengths = #'(10 20 3)
>
>works fine for controlling the _length_ of beams, of course (which I'm
>sure you aware of), but since you also want to influence the melodic
>contour of the gesture via pitches, I'm not sure that will help. If
>there is a way to override the distance between notehead and stem...
>will get back to you if something comes to mind.
>
>Best / Fredrik
>
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Re: Exact stem length?

[Fredrik Wallberg]

Hi Urs,

> - How could I remove the gap between the first two stems?

Maybe try with a temporary

\set Score.proportionalNotationDuration = #(ly:make-moment 1 8)

for that particular group of notes?
As for the beam lengths, I'm not sure what the best solution would be --

\override Stem.details.beamed-lengths = #'(10 20 3)

works fine for controlling the _length_ of beams, of course (which I'm
sure you aware of), but since you also want to influence the melodic
contour of the gesture via pitches, I'm not sure that will help. If
there is a way to override the distance between notehead and stem...
will get back to you if something comes to mind.

Best / Fredrik

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Re: \shape not impacting ties slurs on next line

[David Nalesnik]

Hi Javier,


> Javier Ruiz-Alma  writes:
>
> > The tie continued on a next line is not influenced by positioning
> > override.  Instead, it's placed per default positioning.  How can one
> > move these continued ties or slur?
>

You need to specify another number-pair-list for the second broken bit.
 So, for example:

 pushTieDown = \shape #'(
((0 . -1.0) (0 . -1.2) (0 . -1.2) (0 . -1.0))
((0 . -1.0) (0 . -1.2) (0 . -1.2) (0 . -1.0))
) Tie

--David
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Re: Changing clef for same part?

[Nick Vincent]

Hi David,

Thanks for your help, your assistance is much appreciated. I was simply not
looking for the right terms in the manual, and am still getting my head
round some of the concepts!

Cheers,

Nick


On 25 March 2014 08:47, David Kastrup  wrote:

> Nick Vincent  writes:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have recently discovered LilyPond and have been really amazed by how
> > powerful it is.  I am using it to transcribe brass parts for a band I
> have
> > recently joined, so please excuse the possibly dumb question.
> >
> > I have a song where I would like the baritone sax and trombone to play
> the
> > same notes.  I've worked out how to do this without typing all the notes
> > out twice, but can't work out how to output the two scores with different
> > clefs:
> >
> > barisax = \relative c { c' d e f }
> >
> >
> > \bookpart {
> >
> > % Baritone sax: should be in treble clef
> >
> > \score { \transpose bes c' { \barisax } }
> >
> > }
> >
> >
> > \bookpart {
> >
> > % Trombone: Should be in bass clef
> >
> > \score { \barisax }
> >
> > }
> >
> >
> > Putting \clef inside the score block results in a syntax error.
>
> A score block accepts exactly _one_ music expression.  Your \score
> statements above, probably more by accident than design, fit that
> restriction.  \clef "bass" is a music expression of its own.  To group
> multiple music expressions into one, you use { ... } (namely, you need
> another level of braces here).
>
> Usually one would be more specific though, and write something like
> \new Staff \with { \clef "bass" } { ... }
>
> in order to make sure that all of the music material is put in a single
> staff.
>
> > I'm sure this must be possible, but I have scoured the internet and
> > the answer has eluded me so far.
>
> That's somewhat strange as the LilyPond manuals are easily accessible
> using "the internet" and naturally contain lots of examples where such
> things are done.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
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Exact stem length?

[Urs Liska]

Hi,

I'm trying to recreate a contemporary notation. Attachments show my 
results so far, of course I'd want to encapsulate that in a function 
later to have it accessible.


The problems I have (apart from the slash that is still missing):

- How could I remove the gap between the first two stems?

- Is there a way to get the stems extactly the same length so I can get 
an even distribution regardless of the length of the expression and the 
beam's slope?
Currently the stems seem to respect the vertical position of the 
non-existent noteheads.
I tried to set the Stems' length and the vertical position of the 
notehead, both didn't do anything.


For a final function I would like to give the following parameters as 
arguments:

- First and last pitch
- rhythmic extent of the group
- number of "notes"
- length of trailing rest (i.e. ratio of the visible group to the empty 
rest.


Any ideas?
TIA
Urs
<>\version "2.19.4"

#(ly:set-option 'strokeadjust #t)

fast =
\relative f' {
  \scaleDurations 1/8 {
  \override Stem.thickness = 2
  f8[
\omit NoteHead
\omit Rest
f g g a b b c] r1
  }
  \revert Stem.thickness
  \undo \omit Rest
  \undo \omit NoteHead
  c2.
}

ref = { r4 r2. }


\score {
  <<
\new Staff \fast
\new Staff \ref
  >>
}
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Re: "dodecaphonic-first" accidental style

[Urs Liska]

Am 24.03.2014 17:52, schrieb Urs Liska:

I've just compiled a custom LilyPond with that patch in it and will soon
upload it for review. Although dodecaphonic-no-repeat is what _I_ had
asked for I do think this also makes sense.


https://codereview.appspot.com/79680044/

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Re: Discussing typographical standards

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2014-03-25 at 09:07 +0100, Alexander Kobel wrote:
> On 03/25/2014 01:10 AM, Simon Albrecht wrote:
> > The following is completely off-topic, but I’d like to share some
> > observations I often make and thoughts I have and ask for your opinion:
> 
> Hi Simon,
> 
> just a few random thoughts to your remarks; I'll try to keep it short.
> 
> > – For what I know of best practice in typography, it is normally
> > unnecessary to use slurs for indicating melismata. [...]
> 
> This discussion popped up several times already.  IIRC, we always agreed 
> not to agree:  Singers of old (in particular, Renaissance) music expect 
> that there are long melismata all over a piece, and prefer not to have 
> huge slurs in their scores.  Singers of more modern music, where 
> melismata often are only a few notes, prefer slurs.  I -- as a singer 
> familiar with both -- am confused whenever a piece of one epoch uses the 
> style of the other.
> 
> > – The default Denemo output reflects the now common, but faulty practice
> > of writing syl- la- ble instead of syl - la - ble  [...]
> 
> Ugh.  Ugly, but Denemo's fault.

the Denemo user's fault (me, in this case), it would seem I should have
written -- instead of - attached ... ignorance (sigh!).

>   Do they have an internal representation 
> of "proper" hyphens?  I cannot imagine that the person who wrote the 
> exporter is so unfamiliar with LilyPond's syntax to mix that up.

it is simpler than that - you type in lyrics as LilyPond syntax
(more-or-less, I think).
[...]
> > – In order to increase legibility and clarity it’s also much advisable
> > to use at least one StaffGroup, [...]
> 
> Sure.  Again, Denemo's fault (or the user didn't specify it).

The second of these, the user of Denemo, (me), rather than Denemo which
supports the braces quite extensively. (If I had started from a template
it would have had some braces, no doubt).

Richard

>   At least 
> not Lily's.
> 
> 
> Just my two Satoshi...
> 
> 
> Best,
> Alexander



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Re: Discussing typographical standards (was: Tuplet notehead shared...)

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2014-03-25 at 01:10 +0100, Simon Albrecht wrote:
> 
> Am 24.03.2014 13:33, schrieb Richard Shann:
> 
> > An example of this, typeset using LilyPond is posted here:
> > 
> > http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/278632
> > 
> > To do this I set tuplet timing around the entire bass part and used
> > doubled time signatures (one hidden IIRC)
> > 
> > Richard
> The following is completely off-topic, but I’d like to share some
> observations I often make and thoughts I have and ask for your
> opinion:
> Looking at this score confirms me in my opinion that LilyPond default
> output alone is no guarantee for a good-looking result in accordance
> with typographical good use.

This is a matter of degree: most people coming to LilyPond will have
experienced drawing-based gui programs which leave much more to your
skill as a music engraver.

>  This may be partly due to an older lilypond version used,
yes, I think that was 2.12. Nowadays Denemo is built with the latest
stable LilyPond release.
>  but there are some basic issues I see with this:
> 
> – For what I know of best practice in typography, it is normally
> unnecessary to use slurs for indicating melismata. Beaming
> (\autoBeamOff, melismata with []), placement of syllables and
> hyphenation/extender lines make the lyrics assignment unambiguous and
> easy to read in all but the most complex cases (that is, when the
> rhythmic complexity requires that the beaming corresponds to beat
> groups and legibility would suffer in the opposite case—which will
> rarely occur before 1900).
> Certainly I know that the Lily authors knew what they were doing, when
> they recommended using slurs for this purpose. This is used in
> excellent hand-engraved editions as well, I think especially later in
> the 20th century. Nevertheless I vote for the supposedly older use, as
> described before.
> 
> – The default Denemo output

hmm, I think you misunderstand Denemo here. It is a music *input*
program - I think in this case it is a question on garbage-in,
garbage-out. I was asked to generate that score for a concert, and hoped
for feedback from the consumers (I know *nothing* about vocal scores);
unfortunately, the consumers are so used to, and tolerant of, bad
computer music typesetting that they simply said it was "lovely" and
that was that. 

>  reflects the now common, but faulty practice of writing syl- la- ble
> instead of syl - la - ble (with the hyphens centered between
> syllables). The corresponding Lilypond code would be { syl -- la --
> ble }, see Learning Manual, Aligning lyrics to a melody.

So, you would type -- in Denemo to get that style, if you knew what you
were doing. As I say, I was too ignorant of vocal music to do that or to
devise a way that Denemo would hint to the user that they might want to
do it. But Denemo is just a LilyPond front end, you can (I hope) put
anything in the lyrics as needed.

> 
> – The beginning of the first recitative is a good example where
> inserting a line break at half-measure would significantly improve the
> visual impression by a more even horizontal spacing.

Denemo has the command to do this built in, I have been using it myself
recently to break a page at the second time (half-)bar.

>  I found that it was common in traditional hand-engraved scores to do
> such mid-measure breaks (if measures aren’t rather short), and thus I
> am often using \bar "" at half-measure. Sometimes I even use an extra
> voice for something like \repeat unfold 35 { s2 \bar "" s2 } and thus
> create more flexibility in line-breaking. The disadvantage is that
> there is no possibility to differ in likeliness between mid-measure
> and full-measure breaks, which would then be desirable.
> 
> – As always, the default margins are too small.

I have once or twice created Denemo defaults that emit the LilyPond to
alter the LilyPond defaults, but have then had occasion to regret it
later when LilyPond improves/changes. I don't think this is one of them
- though I place an enormous premium on lack of page turns for my
personal use.

>  This is already being discussed as issue 3808 and will hopefully be
> changed soon. I once read a comprehensive article (in German) on this
> topic from the German Tex user group’s magazine, and the author
> pointed out that in medieval manuscripts and renaissance prints an
> outstandingly pleasing appearance is achieved by page margins which
> cover up half of the page’s space! This is luxury, of course, and
> usually unaffordable, but I find it evident that having "unusually"
> large margins (and simple ratios between the measurements of the page
> and margins, and the top-margin smaller than the bottom-margin and so
> on…) much improves the look of the page. It might necessitate to
> decrease staff size, though, but anyway 16 pt are no way too small.
> 
> – In order to increase legibility and clarity it’s also much advisable
> to use at least one StaffGroup, e.g.
> \new StaffGroup {
>   \new Staff = "fl" {}

Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter

[Urs Liska]

That's similar to what we do with the Fried songs: we include the sources in 
all perks starting from a certain price.

Urs

David Kastrup  schrieb am 25.03.2014:
>Paul Tannous  writes:
>
>> Shane:
>>> it would be more sensible to sell the .ly file at a higher cost. It
>>> is certainly the more valuable entity, both in terms of work in and
>>> future utility.
>>>
>> After considering your comments, I and my team believe that we should
>> offer the .ly files as the primary premiums to Kickstarter
>> contributors.
>
>I'm not sure what "primary premiums are".
>
>> After all, anyone wanting to contribute to this initiative would most
>> likely have an interest in LilyPond sources in general and in the
>> LilyPond sources that we will be producing in particular.
>
>Well, the principal motivation of those supporting the "free" angle
>will
>likely be inpired by the free software movement, based on the four
>software freedoms:
>
>Freedom 0: The freedom to run the program for any purpose.
>
>   Freedom 1: The freedom to study how the program works, and change it
>   to make it do what you wish.
>
>Freedom 2: The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your
>neighbor.
>
>Freedom 3: The freedom to improve the program, and release your
>   improvements (and modified versions in general) to the
>   public, so that the whole community benefits.
>
>It's pretty obvious that freedom 1 and freedom 3, when applied to a
>score rather than software, would best benefit from the availability of
>the .ly file.  Make no mistake: I have seen impressive "arrangements"
>made by xerox and scissors (I remember some Brandenburg concerto
>rearrangement for strings, with flaps from orchestra voices pasted into
>another voice, and with "transpositions" and range adaptations by
>drawing in other clefs and additional staff lines while striking out
>others).  But that's peanuts to what one can reasonably well do using
>LilyPond.
>
>The spirit of the GPL is that you can ask whatever you want for a
>program, but you get the right to distribute it and the corresponding
>sources for it in the bargain.
>
>So I think it would be a nice fit if the .ly file was included in any
>offering, making the people feel they are actually doing something for
>a
>freely available score as source material.
>
>As for perks: many people will consider it quite an effort actually
>doing anything with the .ly file, so you could offer custom
>transpositions or paper formats (of course, sans tweaking) in PDF form
>as perks.  That's nothing that someone willing to learn LilyPond would
>not be able to do himself, but it might be a nice motivation for those
>who are in it for the paper score.

-- 
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Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter

[Simon Albrecht]

You might check imslp.org, which often is a source for excellent 
engravings. I have no idea whether there is a scientifically approvable 
edition there. My thoughts referred in particular to the 19th century 
complete editions for example of Bach which combine unsurpassed 
typographical excellence and beauty with scholarly text. There are some 
who say that the NBA (New Bach Edition) does not give a significant 
advantage over that.


Best, Simon

Am 25.03.2014 07:23, schrieb Urs Liska:
When the idea or selling point of a campaign is to provide a "free" 
edition it can be argued what that is needed for when there already 
_are_ good editions freely available.
Then one should really find a good surplus over existing editions. 
This could for example be the possibility to make modifications like 
new arrangement of voices or transpositions.

Don't know how this relates to your ideas, though.

Urs

Paul Tannous  schrieb am 25.03.2014:

Urs Liska wrote:

I recently made a similar suggestion with the "Winterreise", and
some commented it problematic to create new "free" editions of
pieces that already exist in good free editions.

Urs

*Urs, *

*Do you recall why others found this to be "problematic"? *

*Thanks,*

*Paul T.*


-- Diese Nachricht wurde mit *K-@ Mail* 
 gesendet. 




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Re: Changing clef for same part?

[David Kastrup]

Nick Vincent  writes:

> Hi all,
>
> I have recently discovered LilyPond and have been really amazed by how
> powerful it is.  I am using it to transcribe brass parts for a band I have
> recently joined, so please excuse the possibly dumb question.
>
> I have a song where I would like the baritone sax and trombone to play the
> same notes.  I've worked out how to do this without typing all the notes
> out twice, but can't work out how to output the two scores with different
> clefs:
>
> barisax = \relative c { c' d e f }
>
>
> \bookpart {
>
> % Baritone sax: should be in treble clef
>
> \score { \transpose bes c' { \barisax } }
>
> }
>
>
> \bookpart {
>
> % Trombone: Should be in bass clef
>
> \score { \barisax }
>
> }
>
>
> Putting \clef inside the score block results in a syntax error.

A score block accepts exactly _one_ music expression.  Your \score
statements above, probably more by accident than design, fit that
restriction.  \clef "bass" is a music expression of its own.  To group
multiple music expressions into one, you use { ... } (namely, you need
another level of braces here).

Usually one would be more specific though, and write something like
\new Staff \with { \clef "bass" } { ... }

in order to make sure that all of the music material is put in a single
staff.

> I'm sure this must be possible, but I have scoured the internet and
> the answer has eluded me so far.

That's somewhat strange as the LilyPond manuals are easily accessible
using "the internet" and naturally contain lots of examples where such
things are done.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: entering chords

[and...@andis59.se]

On 2014-03-24 22:04, Thomas Morley wrote:

How about below?
Also, I added an optional argument, which you can use to specify which
chord-note should be colored.
Default is 'first'.
It's possible to switch to 'last'.
Other settings like 'fourth' at own risk:
Ofcourse specifying 'fourth' will result in an error, if any chord has
not enough notes.

\version "2.18.0"

clr =
#(define-music-function (parser location which color music)
 ((procedure? car) color? ly:music?)
   (music-map
 (lambda (mus)
   (if (music-is-of-type? mus 'event-chord)
   (let* ((evt-chrd-nts (event-chord-notes mus)))
(if (> (length evt-chrd-nts) 1)
(let ((first-nh (which evt-chrd-nts)))
  #{ \tweak #'color #color #first-nh #})
mus)
 mus)
   mus))
 music))


OMG!, This is exactly what I needed!
A really BIG Thank You!

// Anders
--
English isn't my first language.
So any error or strangeness is due to the translation.
Please correct my English so that I may become better.

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Changing clef for same part?

[Nick Vincent]

Hi all,

I have recently discovered LilyPond and have been really amazed by how
powerful it is.  I am using it to transcribe brass parts for a band I have
recently joined, so please excuse the possibly dumb question.

I have a song where I would like the baritone sax and trombone to play the
same notes.  I've worked out how to do this without typing all the notes
out twice, but can't work out how to output the two scores with different
clefs:

barisax = \relative c { c' d e f }


\bookpart {

% Baritone sax: should be in treble clef

\score { \transpose bes c' { \barisax } }

}


\bookpart {

% Trombone: Should be in bass clef

\score { \barisax }

}


Putting \clef inside the score block results in a syntax error.  I'm sure
this must be possible, but I have scoured the internet and the answer has
eluded me so far.  Is there any other way I can make this happen?


Cheers,


Nick
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Re: Generating Interest in LilyPond through Kickstarter

[David Kastrup]

Paul Tannous  writes:

> Shane:
>> it would be more sensible to sell the .ly file at a higher cost. It
>> is certainly the more valuable entity, both in terms of work in and
>> future utility.
>>
> After considering your comments, I and my team believe that we should
> offer the .ly files as the primary premiums to Kickstarter
> contributors.

I'm not sure what "primary premiums are".

> After all, anyone wanting to contribute to this initiative would most
> likely have an interest in LilyPond sources in general and in the
> LilyPond sources that we will be producing in particular.

Well, the principal motivation of those supporting the "free" angle will
likely be inpired by the free software movement, based on the four
software freedoms:

Freedom 0: The freedom to run the program for any purpose.

Freedom 1: The freedom to study how the program works, and change it
   to make it do what you wish.

Freedom 2: The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor.

Freedom 3: The freedom to improve the program, and release your
   improvements (and modified versions in general) to the
   public, so that the whole community benefits.

It's pretty obvious that freedom 1 and freedom 3, when applied to a
score rather than software, would best benefit from the availability of
the .ly file.  Make no mistake: I have seen impressive "arrangements"
made by xerox and scissors (I remember some Brandenburg concerto
rearrangement for strings, with flaps from orchestra voices pasted into
another voice, and with "transpositions" and range adaptations by
drawing in other clefs and additional staff lines while striking out
others).  But that's peanuts to what one can reasonably well do using
LilyPond.

The spirit of the GPL is that you can ask whatever you want for a
program, but you get the right to distribute it and the corresponding
sources for it in the bargain.

So I think it would be a nice fit if the .ly file was included in any
offering, making the people feel they are actually doing something for a
freely available score as source material.

As for perks: many people will consider it quite an effort actually
doing anything with the .ly file, so you could offer custom
transpositions or paper formats (of course, sans tweaking) in PDF form
as perks.  That's nothing that someone willing to learn LilyPond would
not be able to do himself, but it might be a nice motivation for those
who are in it for the paper score.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Discussing typographical standards

[Alexander Kobel]

On 03/25/2014 01:10 AM, Simon Albrecht wrote:

The following is completely off-topic, but I’d like to share some
observations I often make and thoughts I have and ask for your opinion:


Hi Simon,

just a few random thoughts to your remarks; I'll try to keep it short.


– For what I know of best practice in typography, it is normally
unnecessary to use slurs for indicating melismata. [...]


This discussion popped up several times already.  IIRC, we always agreed 
not to agree:  Singers of old (in particular, Renaissance) music expect 
that there are long melismata all over a piece, and prefer not to have 
huge slurs in their scores.  Singers of more modern music, where 
melismata often are only a few notes, prefer slurs.  I -- as a singer 
familiar with both -- am confused whenever a piece of one epoch uses the 
style of the other.



– The default Denemo output reflects the now common, but faulty practice
of writing syl- la- ble instead of syl - la - ble  [...]


Ugh.  Ugly, but Denemo's fault.  Do they have an internal representation 
of "proper" hyphens?  I cannot imagine that the person who wrote the 
exporter is so unfamiliar with LilyPond's syntax to mix that up.



– The beginning of the first recitative is a good example where
inserting a line break at half-measure would significantly improve the
visual impression by a more even horizontal spacing. [...]


Agreed.  On a side note, I also use this when the chorus of a song comes 
first, and several stanzas follow on an upbeat; that's simply to avoid 
lyrics dangling in the middle of nowhere deep below a staff.



The disadvantage is that there is no possibility to
differ in likeliness between mid-measure and full-measure breaks, which
would then be desirable.


Definitively.


– As always, the default margins are too small.  [...]


Agreed, but...


I once read a comprehensive article
 (in German) on
this topic from the German Tex user group’s magazine, and the author
pointed out that in medieval manuscripts and renaissance prints an
outstandingly pleasing appearance is achieved by page margins which
cover up half of the page’s space! This is luxury, of course, [...]


... that's not only luxury, it's a hindrance for sheet music IMHO.  Page 
turns are not a huge deal when reading a novel; they are when you're 
busy waving your hands in front of a choir, need to keep your fingers on 
the keys or strings, or even if the noise of turning a page is too loud 
for a singer.  And larger sheets are impractical too, for several 
reasons.  Unless you need to hide from your conductor... ;-)


In the engraving you refering to, I agree the margins are a tad too 
small, but I'd trade the staff size for it (and the "boldness" of the 
Feta font, if it were easy to change):  I like the horizontal density of 
the notes e.g. on page 7.  (Barring some alignment issues, e.g. on the 
clef change in m. 67.)  If however the staff size is required for 
reading at some distance when playing: Forget about the margins, let my 
hands stay at the strings.



– In order to increase legibility and clarity it’s also much advisable
to use at least one StaffGroup, [...]


Sure.  Again, Denemo's fault (or the user didn't specify it).  At least 
not Lily's.



Just my two Satoshi...


Best,
Alexander

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