subject:"Re\: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond\?\?\?\?\?"

Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-08 Thread SoundsFromSound

Hi Antonio,

That's very kind of you to offer your own personal documentation on how you
grasped LilyPond and its power.  I'm sure that if you put together a PDF
guide and uploaded it somewhere (Dropbox, your site, etc) and posted the
link here in the mailing list, many would be grateful and appreciative.

Good luck!

Ben



Antonio Gervasoni wrote
> About a year ago, when I discovered Lilypond, I decided that the best way
> to learn it was to typeset an old composition and compare the result to
> the first score. I then decided that the work should be an orchestral work
> I composed back in 2003, mainly because it is a very complicated score - a
> bit "Stravinskian", with constant time signature changes, complex rhythms,
> etc. - and if Lilypond could handle that then it could certainly convince
> me as an alternative to other software.
> 
> I never imagined it would be so hard; part of it, obviously, because I was
> a newbie and part of it because the work is indeed a very complex one
> (maybe I should have started with an easier piece!). However, it has been
> also hard because I have been unsuccesful at finding any website or blog
> thoroughly describing the basics of creating an orchestral score.
> 
> There is an orchestral template in the Learning Manual and ideas scattered
> all over the net but nothing in the form of a "Guide to Writing Orchestral
> Scores with Lilypond". So, I had to figure out the way to do it, trying
> one solution, then another, going back and forth until I came up to a
> solution that worked for me.
> 
> Now, I'm almost done and I'm thinking about publishing a complete
> description of how I did it. Not that I think that my process for creating
> such a score is the right one or even the best one! I just want to share
> it with other users that might find it useful and also receive feedback
> from other more experienced users in the form of advice on how to improve
> and simplify it.
> 
> The problem is that I don't know how to do this! If I write a short guide
> of, say 20-30 pages, in pdf format, where should I post/upload it? The .ly
> files and pdf output could be uploaded to the Mutopia Project. I could
> also upload the score and parts to IMSLP. But what about the guide? Where
> should that go? Any ideas?
> 
> I could use my own website, or create a blog and put it there, but my
> concern is about making it immediately "visible" to most Lilypond users,
> so that it can attract the attention of those of them who write orchestral
> music and generate discussion and a flow of ideas right away.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Antonio





-
composer | sound designer
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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-08 Thread Urs Liska

Am 08.01.2013 20:02, schrieb Antonio Gervasoni:

...

Now, I'm almost done and I'm thinking about publishing a complete
description of how I did it. Not that I think that my process for creating
such a score is the right one or even the best one! I just want to share it
with other users that might find it useful and also receive feedback from
other more experienced users in the form of advice on how to improve and
simplify it.

The problem is that I don't know how to do this! If I write a short guide
of, say 20-30 pages, in pdf format, where should I post/upload it? The .ly
files and pdf output could be uploaded to the Mutopia Project. I could also
upload the score and parts to IMSLP. But what about the guide? Where should
that go? Any ideas?

I could use my own website, or create a blog and put it there, but my
concern is about making it immediately "visible" to most Lilypond users, so
that it can attract the attention of those of them who write orchestral
music and generate discussion and a flow of ideas right away.

Regards,

Antonio
This is a _very_ good idea, and I would be pleased to get you 'into my
boat'.
Last year I did something similar because I think that exactly this kind
of information would be very valuable (i.e. essay style material that
complements LilyPond's (very good) reference style documentation).
You can have a look at
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks.html
if you want.

Since then I have in mind to extend this by more texts and to offer
others to extend it to get a collection of related material. (But I'll
probably change to some kind of PDF delivery because it was
unnecessarily complicated to get it on web pages).
Probably I'll shift this idea to another project, though: During the
development of a musical edition some others and me created the base for
a kind of LilyPond toolkit library. When the edition is finished we'll
change that to be an open source project hosted on Github. This will
consist of sets of functionality, templates and examples which of course
have to be well documented.
It isn't finally decided but the original motivation of this library
could be labeled with 'productivity tools' and '(best) practice
strategies'. The 'includable' library can and is intended to be
accompanied by more or less standalone essays (like how to set up
projects to be variable, how to deal with complicated transpositions,
how to change the overall visual appearance of scores etc.).
I think an essay on how to set up an orchestral score would fit
extremely well into this concept. And source snippets etc. could also be
seamlessly be integrated.
[In theory such a project could on the long run result in a book. But of
course this is pure speculation ATM.]

So if you think that's a good idea don't hesitate to contact my (on or
off list).

Best
Urs

--
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http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Guide-to-Writing-Orchestral-Scores-with-Lilypond-tp139065.html
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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-08 Thread Wim van Dommelen

Hi Antonio, Ben, Urs, others,

The idea of writing a "Guide to writing an orchestral score with
LilyPond" is a very, very good idea. Not replacing the learning manual
but as an addition with e.g. an orchestral example build in stages
(with all the intermediate files available for who is interested to
follow the process in detail. I'm convinced that for LilyPond to be
succesfull, the learning curve for new users or users attempting other
projects has to flatten out. The only drawback I can think of now (for
this "Guide") would be that it might be better to start with a smaller
example first (e.g. a guide to write a SATB piece or smaller lead
sheet). To get the process right before drowning in a large example.

I would suggest to keep this discussion on the list because I think
many more people are interested (or will be). Of course "work" emails
excluded.

As I'm a regular LilyPond user (I started as a enduser nine years ago
(v.2.2) with it, have been out of it for some years, but back for some
months now), I've been looking for some place to contribute. And this
might be a place for me to do so, depending on what is asked for: What
skills do you expect?, What will be the basic tools to work with
(LilyPond-book?) ?, What will be the speed (work pressure) needed?,
etc. I've written documentation texts for years, so I think I can
probably fit in. But most of all I can't guarantee the speed.

But a project like this will need more persons working together, I'm
not very acquainted by how the LilyPond user group organizes this
behind the screens. And just starting out of the void will most likely
lead to failure.

Can someone brief me on how such a group starts, how to share info.,
tools, communicate, etc?

And most important: Am I welcome on this adventure?

Regards,
Wim.

On 8 Jan 2013, at 21:35 , Urs Liska wrote:

Am 08.01.2013 20:02, schrieb Antonio Gervasoni:

...

Now, I'm almost done and I'm thinking about publishing a complete
description of how I did it. Not that I think that my process for
creating
such a score is the right one or even the best one! I just want to
share it
with other users that might find it useful and also receive
feedback from
other more experienced users in the form of advice on how to
improve and

simplify it.

The problem is that I don't know how to do this! If I write a short
guide
of, say 20-30 pages, in pdf format, where should I post/upload it?
The .ly
files and pdf output could be uploaded to the Mutopia Project. I
could also
upload the score and parts to IMSLP. But what about the guide?
Where should

that go? Any ideas?

I could use my own website, or create a blog and put it there, but my
concern is about making it immediately "visible" to most Lilypond
users, so
that it can attract the attention of those of them who write
orchestral

music and generate discussion and a flow of ideas right away.

Regards,

Antonio
This is a _very_ good idea, and I would be pleased to get you 'into
my boat'.
Last year I did something similar because I think that exactly this
kind of information would be very valuable (i.e. essay style
material that complements LilyPond's (very good) reference style
documentation).
You can have a look at http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks.html
if you want.

Since then I have in mind to extend this by more texts and to offer
others to extend it to get a collection of related material. (But
I'll probably change to some kind of PDF delivery because it was
unnecessarily complicated to get it on web pages).
Probably I'll shift this idea to another project, though: During the
development of a musical edition some others and me created the base
for a kind of LilyPond toolkit library. When the edition is finished
we'll change that to be an open source project hosted on Github.
This will consist of sets of functionality, templates and examples
which of course have to be well documented.
It isn't finally decided but the original motivation of this library
could be labeled with 'productivity tools' and '(best) practice
strategies'. The 'includable' library can and is intended to be
accompanied by more or less standalone essays (like how to set up
projects to be variable, how to deal with complicated
transpositions, how to change the overall visual appearance of
scores etc.).
I think an essay on how to set up an orchestral score would fit
extremely well into this concept. And source snippets etc. could
also be seamlessly be integrated.
[In theory such a project could on the long run result in a book.
But of course this is pure speculation ATM.]

So if you think that's a good idea don't hesitate to contact my (on
or off list).

Best
Urs

--
View this message in context:
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Guide-to-Writing-Orchestral-Scores-with-Lilypond-tp139065.html
Sent from the User mailing list ar

Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-08 Thread Urs Liska


Hi Wim,

this deserves a more detailed answer than I can afford right now.
For now I'd only want to let you know that you _are_ welcome.

Best
Urs

Am 08.01.2013 22:57, schrieb Wim van Dommelen:

Hi Antonio, Ben, Urs, others,

The idea of writing a "Guide to writing an orchestral score with 
LilyPond" is a very, very good idea. Not replacing the learning manual 
but as an addition with e.g. an orchestral example build in stages 
(with all the intermediate files available for who is interested to 
follow the process in detail. I'm convinced that for LilyPond to be 
succesfull, the learning curve for new users or users attempting other 
projects has to flatten out. The only drawback I can think of now (for 
this "Guide") would be that it might be better to start with a smaller 
example first (e.g. a guide to write a SATB piece or smaller lead 
sheet). To get the process right before drowning in a large example.


I would suggest to keep this discussion on the list because I think 
many more people are interested (or will be). Of course "work" emails 
excluded.


As I'm a regular LilyPond user (I started as a enduser nine years ago 
(v.2.2) with it, have been out of it for some years, but back for some 
months now), I've been looking for some place to contribute. And this 
might be a place for me to do so, depending on what is asked for: What 
skills do you expect?, What will be the basic tools to work with 
(LilyPond-book?) ?, What will be the speed (work pressure) needed?, 
etc. I've written documentation texts for years, so I think I can 
probably fit in. But most of all I can't guarantee the speed.


But a project like this will need more persons working together, I'm 
not very acquainted by how the LilyPond user group organizes this 
behind the screens. And just starting out of the void will most likely 
lead to failure.


Can someone brief me on how such a group starts, how to share info., 
tools, communicate, etc?


And most important: Am I welcome on this adventure?

Regards,
Wim.




On 8 Jan 2013, at 21:35 , Urs Liska wrote:



Am 08.01.2013 20:02, schrieb Antonio Gervasoni:

...

Now, I'm almost done and I'm thinking about publishing a complete
description of how I did it. Not that I think that my process for 
creating
such a score is the right one or even the best one! I just want to 
share it
with other users that might find it useful and also receive feedback 
from

other more experienced users in the form of advice on how to improve and
simplify it.

The problem is that I don't know how to do this! If I write a short 
guide
of, say 20-30 pages, in pdf format, where should I post/upload it? 
The .ly
files and pdf output could be uploaded to the Mutopia Project. I 
could also
upload the score and parts to IMSLP. But what about the guide? Where 
should

that go? Any ideas?

I could use my own website, or create a blog and put it there, but my
concern is about making it immediately "visible" to most Lilypond 
users, so

that it can attract the attention of those of them who write orchestral
music and generate discussion and a flow of ideas right away.

Regards,

Antonio
This is a _very_ good idea, and I would be pleased to get you 'into 
my boat'.
Last year I did something similar because I think that exactly this 
kind of information would be very valuable (i.e. essay style material 
that complements LilyPond's (very good) reference style documentation).
You can have a look at 
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks.html 
if you want.


Since then I have in mind to extend this by more texts and to offer 
others to extend it to get a collection of related material. (But 
I'll probably change to some kind of PDF delivery because it was 
unnecessarily complicated to get it on web pages).
Probably I'll shift this idea to another project, though: During the 
development of a musical edition some others and me created the base 
for a kind of LilyPond toolkit library. When the edition is finished 
we'll change that to be an open source project hosted on Github. This 
will consist of sets of functionality, templates and examples which 
of course have to be well documented.
It isn't finally decided but the original motivation of this library 
could be labeled with 'productivity tools' and '(best) practice 
strategies'. The 'includable' library can and is intended to be 
accompanied by more or less standalone essays (like how to set up 
projects to be variable, how to deal with complicated transpositions, 
how to change the overall visual appearance of scores etc.).
I think an essay on how to set up an orchestral score would fit 
extremely well into this concept. And source snippets etc. could also 
be seamlessly be integrated.
[In theory such a project could on the long run result in a book. But 
of course this is pure speculation ATM.]


So if you think that's a good idea don't hesitate to contact my (on 
or off list).


Best
Urs





--
View this message in context

Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-08 Thread Antonio Gervasoni

Wow! I didn't expect all this enthusiasm and eagerness to collaborate...
at least no so fast!

Ben wrote:

> That's very kind of you to offer your own personal documentation on how
> you grasped LilyPond 
> and its power.  I'm sure that if you put together a PDF guide and uploaded
> it somewhere 
> (Dropbox, your site, etc) and posted the link here in the mailing list,
> many would be 
> grateful and appreciative. 

I always thought it was the least I could do, since I have been able to
create this score only because others decided to do the same thing!

Urs wrote:

>> This is a _very_ good idea, and I would be pleased to get you 'into 
>> my boat'.

Count me in!!! Please!!! I took a look at your site and the first thing that
came to my mind was "why haven't I seen this website before???" I agree with
everything you say in the introduction. I experienced the same things.

>> I'll probably change to some kind of PDF delivery because it was 
>> unnecessarily complicated to get it on web pages).

I agree! Too much time would be wasted in the layout of the webpage when you
just have to write a document in LibreOffice, create a PDF file out of it
and upload it somewhere. 

>> During the development of a musical edition some others and me created
>> the base 
>> for a kind of LilyPond toolkit library. When the edition is finished 
>> we'll change that to be an open source project hosted on Github. This 
>> will consist of sets of functionality, templates and examples which 
>> of course have to be well documented.
>> The 'includable' library can and is intended to be 
>> accompanied by more or less standalone essays (like how to set up 
>> projects to be variable, how to deal with complicated transpositions, 
>> how to change the overall visual appearance of scores etc.)

Amazing! Again, count me in!

Wim wrote:

> Not replacing the learning manual 
> but as an addition with e.g. an orchestral example build in stages 
> (with all the intermediate files available for who is interested to 
> follow the process in detail.

Precisely! The Learning Manual is already a great source of information but
it needs to be complemented with 'productivity tools' and '(best) practice
strategies', as Urs pointed out.

> The only drawback I can think of now (for 
> this "Guide") would be that it might be better to start with a smaller 
> example first (e.g. a guide to write a SATB piece or smaller lead 
> sheet). To get the process right before drowning in a large example.

I think that might be a much bigger project than the one I had in mind! My
intention was just to document my process of creating an orchestral score. I
agree that a guide that starts from more simple examples and builds itself
up to the most complex ones would be an awesome document but then we would
need a lot of people contributing to this effort, documenting their
experiences writing different types of scores. It could be done though, and
I'm definitely in if it gets to that point but for now I'm just thinking
about orchestral scores.

> I've written documentation texts for years, so I think I can 
> probably fit in. But most of all I can't guarantee the speed.

Awesome! I have absolutely no knowledge on that and also one of the things I
have been worried about, when thinking about documenting my process, is that
my use of the English language is far from being the one needed to write
such a document (being that my native language is Spanish)

> And most important: Am I welcome on this adventure?

>From my part, by all means! Up till know I was just thinking about writing
the document myself and uploading all the files. Now, looking at the
possibility of a collaborative effort I am absolutely thrilled!

At this point I think it might be good to give everyone reading this thread
an idea of what I meant with my first post. I just put in my Dropbox the
full score I've been working on for the past months. It is not complete yet!
I still have to typeset the parts of the second violins, violas, cellos and
double basses but you can get an idea of what I was referring to when I said
it is a very complex score. Here's the link:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4857747/Icarus%20Jan-08-2013.pdf

Finally, I have only used Lilypond for over a year and I am not a programmer
nor do I have any knowledge of Scheme. I majored from a computing science
career called Systems Engineering, but that was a long time ago. I then
majored in Music Composition at the National Conservatory Music (in Peru, my
country) and have dedicated myself to composition ever since. Therefore, I
can only offer what I have learned in the very brief time I've been using
Lilypond as well as the experience and knowledge acquired in the practice of
my profession. I hope this suffices!

Regards,

Antonio

--
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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Jan-Peter Voigt


Hello Urs, Antonio and list,

this is a great tutorial Urs. I will recommend it to people whom I gave 
introductions and who want to step further.
I recently introduced one guy, with plain lilypond (no scheme, no 
tricks) to produce some SATB-sheets.
As we can see in this thread, there are a lot of people, who use 
lilypond to create publication ready sheet-music.
I also made up my own library/framework to have a template mechanism and 
to have separation of concerns. Recently I created an engraver, to input 
overrides outside my music input. So if I have a printout and I see in 
measure 42 on the third 8th the slur should be shaped a little bit - but 
only for this special printout with its special paper settings - I can say
\myEditionCommand editionTag 42 3/8 #'(path to engraver) { \shape Slur 
#'(...) }
This way I can reuse my music variables without the need of tagged 
overrides, wich can be very long.
My framework should be open, but it is not documented and it is not 
always consistent in naming and not all of my scheme-hacks are hidden 
behind a nice lilypond-command ... I really would like to discuss this 
stuff with other ponders - but this list should'nt be spoiled with such 
discussions and scare new users with intimate scheme-expressions ...
If we would find a place to meet, we could prepare either documentation 
material for lilypond.org or for another lilypond related site. This 
might be ? But I also don't want to distract 
important development work in the basement!


Cheers, Jan-Peter



Am 08.01.2013 21:35, schrieb Urs Liska:


Am 08.01.2013 20:02, schrieb Antonio Gervasoni:

...

Now, I'm almost done and I'm thinking about publishing a complete
description of how I did it. Not that I think that my process for 
creating
such a score is the right one or even the best one! I just want to 
share it
with other users that might find it useful and also receive feedback 
from

other more experienced users in the form of advice on how to improve and
simplify it.

This is a _very_ good idea, and I would be pleased to get you 'into my 
boat'.
Last year I did something similar because I think that exactly this 
kind of information would be very valuable (i.e. essay style material 
that complements LilyPond's (very good) reference style documentation).
You can have a look at 
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks.html 
if you want.



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread SoundsFromSound

Wow...this score reminds me of why I use LilyPond for all my final engravings
- it looks stunning man, GREAT job.

Thank you for sharing!

Ben



Antonio Gervasoni wrote
> Wow! I didn't expect all this enthusiasm and eagerness to
> collaborate... at least no so fast!
> 
> Ben wrote:
> 
>> That's very kind of you to offer your own personal documentation on how
>> you grasped LilyPond 
>> and its power.  I'm sure that if you put together a PDF guide and
>> uploaded it somewhere 
>> (Dropbox, your site, etc) and posted the link here in the mailing list,
>> many would be 
>> grateful and appreciative. 
> 
> I always thought it was the least I could do, since I have been able to
> create this score only because others decided to do the same thing!
> 
> Urs wrote:
> 
>>> This is a _very_ good idea, and I would be pleased to get you 'into 
>>> my boat'.
> 
> Count me in!!! Please!!! I took a look at your site and the first thing
> that came to my mind was "why haven't I seen this website before???" I
> agree with everything you say in the introduction. I experienced the same
> things.
> 
>>> I'll probably change to some kind of PDF delivery because it was 
>>> unnecessarily complicated to get it on web pages).
> 
> I agree! Too much time would be wasted in the layout of the webpage when
> you just have to write a document in LibreOffice, create a PDF file out of
> it and upload it somewhere. 
> 
>>> During the development of a musical edition some others and me created
>>> the base 
>>> for a kind of LilyPond toolkit library. When the edition is finished 
>>> we'll change that to be an open source project hosted on Github. This 
>>> will consist of sets of functionality, templates and examples which 
>>> of course have to be well documented.
>>> The 'includable' library can and is intended to be 
>>> accompanied by more or less standalone essays (like how to set up 
>>> projects to be variable, how to deal with complicated transpositions, 
>>> how to change the overall visual appearance of scores etc.)
> 
> Amazing! Again, count me in!
> 
> Wim wrote:
> 
>> Not replacing the learning manual 
>> but as an addition with e.g. an orchestral example build in stages 
>> (with all the intermediate files available for who is interested to 
>> follow the process in detail.
> 
> Precisely! The Learning Manual is already a great source of information
> but it needs to be complemented with 'productivity tools' and '(best)
> practice strategies', as Urs pointed out.
> 
>> The only drawback I can think of now (for 
>> this "Guide") would be that it might be better to start with a smaller 
>> example first (e.g. a guide to write a SATB piece or smaller lead 
>> sheet). To get the process right before drowning in a large example.
> 
> I think that might be a much bigger project than the one I had in mind! My
> intention was just to document my process of creating an orchestral score.
> I agree that a guide that starts from more simple examples and builds
> itself up to the most complex ones would be an awesome document but then
> we would need a lot of people contributing to this effort, documenting
> their experiences writing different types of scores. It could be done
> though, and I'm definitely in if it gets to that point but for now I'm
> just thinking about orchestral scores.
> 
>> I've written documentation texts for years, so I think I can 
>> probably fit in. But most of all I can't guarantee the speed.
> 
> Awesome! I have absolutely no knowledge on that and also one of the things
> I have been worried about, when thinking about documenting my process, is
> that my use of the English language is far from being the one needed to
> write such a document (being that my native language is Spanish)
> 
>> And most important: Am I welcome on this adventure?
> 
> From my part, by all means! Up till know I was just thinking about writing
> the document myself and uploading all the files. Now, looking at the
> possibility of a collaborative effort I am absolutely thrilled!
> 
> At this point I think it might be good to give everyone reading this
> thread an idea of what I meant with my first post. I just put in my
> Dropbox the full score I've been working on for the past months. It is not
> complete yet! I still have to typeset the parts of the second violins,
> violas, cellos and double basses but you can get an idea of what I was
> referring to when I said it is a very complex score. Here's the link:
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4857747/Icarus%20Jan-08-2013.pdf
> 
> Finally, I have only used Lilypond for over a year and I am not a
> programmer nor do I have any knowledge of Scheme. I majored from a
> computing science career called Systems Engineering, but that was a long
> time ago. I then majored in Music Composition at the National Conservatory
> Music (in Peru, my country) and have dedicated myself to composition ever
> since. Therefore, I can only offer what I have learned in the very brief
> time I've been using Lilyp

Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Urs Liska


Am 09.01.2013 04:29, schrieb Antonio Gervasoni:

Wow! I didn't expect all this enthusiasm and eagerness to collaborate...
at least no so fast!
Well, the risk may be that it is a case of immediate enthusiasm which 
might fade away when there aren't immediate results ;-)


Ben wrote:


That's very kind of you to offer your own personal documentation on how
you grasped LilyPond
and its power.  I'm sure that if you put together a PDF guide and uploaded
it somewhere
(Dropbox, your site, etc) and posted the link here in the mailing list,
many would be
grateful and appreciative.

I always thought it was the least I could do, since I have been able to
create this score only because others decided to do the same thing!

That's what Open Source is for ...

Urs wrote:


This is a _very_ good idea, and I would be pleased to get you 'into
my boat'.

Count me in!!! Please!!! I took a look at your site and the first thing that
came to my mind was "why haven't I seen this website before???" I agree with
everything you say in the introduction. I experienced the same things.

You haven't seen it before because it probably isn't really findable.
I didn't take care of this so far because it is just one single tutorial 
- which may be valuable in itself, but doesn't make an impressive web 
appearance.
If we could collect a certain number of items (with the potential to 
grow) it should be possible to create a more prominent presentation and 
then also to take care of making it more known.

...

During the development of a musical edition some others and me created
the base
for a kind of LilyPond toolkit library. When the edition is finished
we'll change that to be an open source project hosted on Github. This
will consist of sets of functionality, templates and examples which
of course have to be well documented.
The 'includable' library can and is intended to be
accompanied by more or less standalone essays (like how to set up
projects to be variable, how to deal with complicated transpositions,
how to change the overall visual appearance of scores etc.)

Amazing! Again, count me in!
I will try to give a few more hints on what this library could become, 
although it's actually untimely now.
I intended to 'refactor' the present material into a reasonably generic 
basis after the current project is finished and then look for 
collaborators. But as we are right now discussing it I think I have to 
put it up for discussion, so we can see if it is a good starting point 
for a collaborative effort.


The 'library' consists of several - partly independent - concepts:

a) 'Toolboxes'
These are grouped collections of functions and shorthands. It is in a 
sense similar to the LSR, but has a few important differences:


 * Items in these toolboxes are selected to be somewhat consistent with
   the library
 * The library provides a consistent interface to the available
   functionality:
   One includes the library (or a single toolkit) and then can directly
   use the functions.
 * The library is consistently documented (reference and introductory
   material).
   Well it isn't ATM. But I will make sure that only documented
   material will be added to the library (that means, when I move the
   items from our current project directory to the 'openLilyLib' folder
   I will only add a second item when a first item is documented).

To give you an idea I'll enumrate some of the functionality we have ATM:

 * All kind of shorthands for common tasks (simple things like changing
   a (piano) Staff and switching Voice context with one short command)
 * Shorthands for common tweaks (e.g. padding articulations, shifting
   lyrics or notes etc.)
 * An 'editorial toolbox' with two kinds of items:
   - shortcuts to mark editorial additions (e.g. dashed slurs, smaller
   fonts or parentheses)
   - functions to use in the editorial process. These produce warnings
   in the console output and/or color the output
 * A 'curves toolbox' with functions like visualizing the control
   points of bezier curves or tools for creating cross-voice curves.
   The best function which had been retouched during our project has in
   the meantime found its way to core LilyPond under the name of \shape :-)
 * Engravers
 * The introduction and implementation of a 'draft mode' concept:
   If you include the library and then the 'draft mode', then most of
   the tweaks that can be applied through the library - and the items
   affected by the editorial toolbox are colorized.
   This is very handy during the editing process: You immediately see
   what you tweaked manually, and you are visually directed to the
   Grobs that have been commented on by other contributors.
   The highlighting does not affect the layout at all, so you can
   simply comment out the draft mode include to have the final
   printable score.

b) Includes/examples/templates
This can be style sheets or snippets that can be used as modules.
For example I have a modular style sheet for songs that h

Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Urs Liska


Am 09.01.2013 09:13, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Hello Urs, Antonio and list,

this is a great tutorial Urs. 

Thanks!
I will recommend it to people whom I gave introductions and who want 
to step further.
I recently introduced one guy, with plain lilypond (no scheme, no 
tricks) to produce some SATB-sheets.
As we can see in this thread, there are a lot of people, who use 
lilypond to create publication ready sheet-music.
I also made up my own library/framework to have a template mechanism 
and to have separation of concerns. Recently I created an engraver, to 
input overrides outside my music input. So if I have a printout and I 
see in measure 42 on the third 8th the slur should be shaped a little 
bit - but only for this special printout with its special paper 
settings - I can say
\myEditionCommand editionTag 42 3/8 #'(path to engraver) { \shape Slur 
#'(...) }
This way I can reuse my music variables without the need of tagged 
overrides, wich can be very long.
Sounds like this (and probably many of your developments in general) 
could very well enhance an open Lilypond library.
My framework should be open, but it is not documented and it is not 
always consistent in naming and not all of my scheme-hacks are hidden 
behind a nice lilypond-command ... 
In such a case I would suggest the same approach that I intend for my 
own library: Move the stuff to a new place (e.g. openLilyLib) one item 
at a time and use the opportunity to review it, discuss it, think about 
a proper name, polish the implementation - and especially: document it.
I think such a 'relocation' could make it significantly easier to 
discipline oneself to document any single item than if you just have a 
bunch of functionality that has grown over years and think "I really 
should clean this up" ...
I really would like to discuss this stuff with other ponders - but 
this list should'nt be spoiled with such discussions and scare new 
users with intimate scheme-expressions ...
If we would find a place to meet, we could prepare either 
documentation material for lilypond.org or for another lilypond 
related site. This might be ? But I also don't 
want to distract important development work in the basement!
If it really comes to a collaborative project I suggest setting up a 
dedicated mailing list.
Github doesn't provide mailing lists, so we should have another one 
elsewhere.

Any suggestions anyone?

Best
Urs


Cheers, Jan-Peter



Am 08.01.2013 21:35, schrieb Urs Liska:


Am 08.01.2013 20:02, schrieb Antonio Gervasoni:

...

Now, I'm almost done and I'm thinking about publishing a complete
description of how I did it. Not that I think that my process for 
creating
such a score is the right one or even the best one! I just want to 
share it
with other users that might find it useful and also receive feedback 
from
other more experienced users in the form of advice on how to improve 
and

simplify it.

This is a _very_ good idea, and I would be pleased to get you 'into 
my boat'.
Last year I did something similar because I think that exactly this 
kind of information would be very valuable (i.e. essay style material 
that complements LilyPond's (very good) reference style documentation).
You can have a look at 
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks.html 
if you want.



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Jan-Peter Voigt

Hello Urs,

Am 09.01.2013 um 11:55 schrieb Urs Liska:

> Am 09.01.2013 09:13, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:
>> I really would like to discuss this stuff with other ponders - but this list 
>> should'nt be spoiled with such discussions and scare new users with intimate 
>> scheme-expressions ...
>> If we would find a place to meet, we could prepare either documentation 
>> material for lilypond.org or for another lilypond related site. This might 
>> be ? But I also don't want to distract important 
>> development work in the basement!
> If it really comes to a collaborative project I suggest setting up a 
> dedicated mailing list.
> Github doesn't provide mailing lists, so we should have another one elsewhere.
> Any suggestions anyone?
with the "Posaunenchor" (brass band), I used to play with, we 
connected/organized with google groups. If all interested  ponders are on 
facebook, a group could be formed there ... both solutions are a bit scary IMO 
;)
but it should be functional ...

Cheers, Jan-Peter


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling


On 01/08/2013 09:35 PM, Urs Liska wrote:

During the development of a musical edition some others and me created the base
for a kind of LilyPond toolkit library. When the edition is finished we'll 
change
that to be an open source project hosted on Github. This will consist of sets of
functionality, templates and examples which of course have to be well 
documented.
It isn't finally decided but the original motivation of this library could be
labeled with 'productivity tools' and '(best) practice strategies'. The
'includable' library can and is intended to be accompanied by more or less
standalone essays (like how to set up projects to be variable, how to deal with
complicated transpositions, how to change the overall visual appearance of
scores etc.).


This sounds like it would be a very useful tool for lots of people, and I'd be 
happy to try and contribute.


Question -- is the long-term plan to keep it as a standalone project, or to 
eventually have a set of tools that are sufficiently well defined and developed 
as to be incorporated into Lilypond itself?  I can see advantages either way.


By the way, one remark on your excellent tutorial using the Schoenberg example. 
 I don't know if UE will give you the rights to do this, but it would be very 
useful to have a copy of the original engraving of the bars in question for 
comparison purposes.


Best wishes,

-- Joe

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Francisco Vila

2013/1/8 Urs Liska :
> You can have a look at
> http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks.html
> if you want.

Urs:

in

  
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/12-the-first-voice.html

should it be

  onclick="openPic('http://lilypond.ursliska.de/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&

instead of

  onclick="openPic('http://lilypond.ursliska.deindex.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&
...?

Pop-up window do not work because of lack of '/' after ursliska.de and
before index.php
-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Urs Liska


Am 09.01.2013 13:48, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Hello Urs,

Am 09.01.2013 um 11:55 schrieb Urs Liska:


Am 09.01.2013 09:13, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

I really would like to discuss this stuff with other ponders - but this list 
should'nt be spoiled with such discussions and scare new users with intimate 
scheme-expressions ...
If we would find a place to meet, we could prepare either documentation material for 
lilypond.org or for another lilypond related site. This might be 
? But I also don't want to distract important 
development work in the basement!

If it really comes to a collaborative project I suggest setting up a dedicated 
mailing list.
Github doesn't provide mailing lists, so we should have another one elsewhere.
Any suggestions anyone?

with the "Posaunenchor" (brass band), I used to play with, we 
connected/organized with google groups. If all interested  ponders are on facebook, a 
group could be formed there ... both solutions are a bit scary IMO ;)
but it should be functional ...
From those options I'd prefer Google over Facebook. Not less scary, but 
I'd consider Google more as a platform for actually _work_ together 
(although this might be strictly emotional ...).
Is it possible to integrate a Google group with Google's issue tracker 
(as I find Github's issue tracker somewhat too simplistic)?

Do we actually need a _group_? Wouldn't a mailing list be enough?

Best
Urs


Cheers, Jan-Peter


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Antonio Gervasoni

Urs wrote:

> Well, the risk may be that it is a case of immediate enthusiasm which
> might fade away 
> when there aren't immediate results ;-)

Yes, I am aware of that! So I have already decided that I will definitely
document my approach to the matter. If the collaborative effort is
successful then I'll contribute to it with my text, if not I'll just find
the proper place to upload it and make it available to all Lilypond users.

> I think that the contributions we are talking about right now (tutorial
> and material 
> for orchestral scores for example) could very well be included in c)

Excelent! Very nice project, by the way. Thank you for presenting it with so
much detail. My basic plan for the document is to describe each step of the
process, exactly as I did it, present the problems I found in the way and
how I "tackled" each one of them and then include possible alternative
approaches, if I can think of any. I think the best way to do this is to
start by presenting the file structure, along with the templates and a
description of how the score and parts will be obtained from those files.
Then I would go on a per-instrument basis, starting with the flute and
moving downwards in the score (which is how I did it), describing the
different problems I encountered along the way and how I solved them.

> IMHO it isn't advisable to directly tackle a 'definitve and exhaustive'
> guide. 
> This _is_ a huge project and probably would get stuck before we'd get any
> single result.
> I would suggest to see it as a growing collection of individual documents.
> Any single 
> new text that is available publicly is an improvement, so we should
> encourage anybody
> to contribute, be it a 30 page essay on orchestral scores or a one page
> hint on a practice 
> to transpose harmonically complex scores.

I agree! Trying to build something according to a plan that goes from simple
to complex is very difficult and could get stuck. I think it is better to
collect what users are willing to share and from there start filling in the
blanks little by little. It is best to have an incomplete guide than to have
no guide at all!

> My 'natural' choice would be the (already existing, but essentially empty)
> Github repository

This is the first time I take a look at a Github repository so honestly I
couldn't say it is better than any other solution.

> No need to worry. A document in non-perfect English (and I don't see any
> problem when reading 
> your emails ...) is far better than no document.

Well, it is one thing to write emails and another to write a document like
that. I read a lot in English and I'm always amazed at the way a native
English speaker writes in his own language. I could never come up with
something of that quality. But it's reassuring to know that I'm not doing it
bad. Thank you!

> And if we'd go for the Git approach it would be 
> easy for someone else to just make a few improvements here and there ...

Excelent!

> Very nice! It's a perfect example of the aesthetic credo mentioned on the
> first page of the 
> introduction on lilypond.org.

Thank you! And thanks also to Ben's comment! Besides the missing parts there
are also minor collision and out-of-place issues that I'll address at the
end.

> Finally, I hope we can take up and keep the impetus this discussion has
> created ...

So do I!

Regards,

Antonio

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Antonio Gervasoni

Urs wrote:

> From those options I'd prefer Google over Facebook. Not less scary, but 
> I'd consider Google more as a platform for actually _work_ together 
> (although this might be strictly emotional ...)

I couldn't think of Facebook as an alternative. GogleSites seems like a nice
one. One of the example templates is called "project work site". Maybe that
could work.

Antonio



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Urs Liska


Am 09.01.2013 20:58, schrieb Antonio Gervasoni:

Urs wrote:


Well, the risk may be that it is a case of immediate enthusiasm which
might fade away
when there aren't immediate results ;-)

Yes, I am aware of that! So I have already decided that I will definitely
document my approach to the matter. If the collaborative effort is
successful then I'll contribute to it with my text, if not I'll just find
the proper place to upload it and make it available to all Lilypond users.

Very good idea!



I think that the contributions we are talking about right now (tutorial
and material
for orchestral scores for example) could very well be included in c)

Excelent! Very nice project, by the way. Thank you for presenting it with so
much detail. My basic plan for the document is to describe each step of the
process, exactly as I did it, present the problems I found in the way and
how I "tackled" each one of them and then include possible alternative
approaches, if I can think of any.
For me this looks like the ideal approach. At least it's what I feel 
necessary. It's not the only possible approach, but surely a useful one.

...

My 'natural' choice would be the (already existing, but essentially empty)
Github repository

This is the first time I take a look at a Github repository so honestly I
couldn't say it is better than any other solution.

Do you know Git (and the difference between Git and Github)?
I think the use of Git as a versioning system is undoubtedly extremely 
useful and should really be considered essential.
Github OTOH is a service provider focused on Git project hosting. It is 
well possible to host a project on any other site but still use Git.
What I'm not really sure about is if we'd need the possibility to deal 
with both text and binary files.
If we want to be open for the contribution of OpenOffice files or closed 
PDF files I'm not sure if Github is the best solution.
Technically it would surely be better to base all documentation on text 
files (i.e. mainly LaTeX), because this allows to profit from versioning 
and ease of collaboration. But as I said I'm afraid this could scare 
many people off.
OTOH it is quite possible that someone creates an original version of a 
text in, say, OpenOffice (keeping some 'coding style') and 'import' this 
into the project by changing it to LaTeX.



No need to worry. A document in non-perfect English (and I don't see any
problem when reading
your emails ...) is far better than no document.

Well, it is one thing to write emails and another to write a document like
that.

Of  course I know that ;-) I think most of us do ...

I read a lot in English and I'm always amazed at the way a native
English speaker writes in his own language. I could never come up with
something of that quality.
[OT:] I had a 'funny' experience in this regard last year. I had written 
liner notes in German for a cd project that were translated to English 
by someone who was paid for by the record company. I was absolutely 
shocked when I got the translation because it was just so obvious to me 
that it wasn't a native speaker. Well, he didn't even know about music, 
which resulted in 'Google translator' like accidents like that 
translation of 'Die großen Bögen' (something like 'the long phrases') to 
'the great slurs'.
I was very happy that someone offered some money to pay someone to 
improve this translation. The second guy was a native speaking 
musicologist (who presumably could have written the original text 
himself), and this was a very interesting experience. While the first 
translation followed my text practically word by word, the sentences of 
the second one often didn't resemble mine at all - but always expressed 
exactly what I wanted to say :-)


Urs

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Urs Liska


Am 09.01.2013 14:09, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:

On 01/08/2013 09:35 PM, Urs Liska wrote:
During the development of a musical edition some others and me 
created the base

for a kind of LilyPond toolkit library.
...


This sounds like it would be a very useful tool for lots of people, 
and I'd be happy to try and contribute.

Good. I'll come back to it ;-)


Question -- is the long-term plan to keep it as a standalone project, 
or to eventually have a set of tools that are sufficiently well 
defined and developed as to be incorporated into Lilypond itself?  I 
can see advantages either way.

Not really discussed yet.
I'd consider it most practical to think of it as a standalone project, 
with the option of incorporating individual items/solutions/functions to 
LilyPond whenever it seems appropriate.


By the way, one remark on your excellent tutorial using the Schoenberg 
example.  I don't know if UE will give you the rights to do this, but 
it would be very useful to have a copy of the original engraving of 
the bars in question for comparison purposes.
It was already discussed on this list: It was a silly idea to use 
copyrighted material at all for this tutorial. It was just something I 
was working on at that time, and I didn't really think about it ...
But I just reviewed my communication with UE and noticed that I (and 
them) only talked about the 'measures' of the music, not about which 
rendering of them (i.e. a scan of the UE edition or my new typesetting). 
They allowed me 'to show these music examples on my homepage' - any 
other use wasn't allowed.

Which I think means that I can also put the original edition into it.

But I probably won't touch it until I reformat it as a PDF version. 
There had been some valuable comments on this list right after the first 
'release' of the tutorial - which still haven't been incorporated :-(


Best
Urs


Best wishes,

-- Joe

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Francisco Vila

El 09/01/2013 21:05, "Antonio Gervasoni"  escribió:
>
> Urs wrote:
>
> > From those options I'd prefer Google over Facebook. Not less scary, but
> > I'd consider Google more as a platform for actually _work_ together
> > (although this might be strictly emotional ...)
>
> I couldn't think of Facebook as an alternative. GogleSites seems like a
nice
> one. One of the example templates is called "project work site". Maybe
that
> could work.
>
> Antonio
>

For groups/lists, in my experience Google groups act as lists at the same
time, and subscribers do not need a gmail  account,  they can use their
own, usual email address address.
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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread SoundsFromSound

Would it be possible to see the ly file for that PDF? :)


Antonio Gervasoni wrote
> At this point I think it might be good to give everyone reading this
> thread an idea of what I meant with my first post. I just put in my
> Dropbox the full score I've been working on for the past months. It is not
> complete yet! I still have to typeset the parts of the second violins,
> violas, cellos and double basses but you can get an idea of what I was
> referring to when I said it is a very complex score. Here's the link:
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4857747/Icarus%20Jan-08-2013.pdf
> 
> Finally, I have only used Lilypond for over a year and I am not a
> programmer nor do I have any knowledge of Scheme. I majored from a
> computing science career called Systems Engineering, but that was a long
> time ago. I then majored in Music Composition at the National Conservatory
> Music (in Peru, my country) and have dedicated myself to composition ever
> since. Therefore, I can only offer what I have learned in the very brief
> time I've been using Lilypond as well as the experience and knowledge
> acquired in the practice of my profession. I hope this suffices!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Antonio





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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread Antonio Gervasoni

Ben wrote:

> Would it be possible to see the ly file for that PDF? :) 

Hi Ben,

Yes, of course! The problem is that it is not just one file. There are more
than 20 files involved. :-)

The file for the complete score includes a file containing the metrics,
another one for special definitions, one with my preferences for the
positions of percussion notes, another one with the headings for all staves
and finally one file for each part (flutes, horns, harp, etc.) I could zip
them all and put them in my Dropbox. However, I'm not sure if all things in
there are self-explanatory. I guess they might be for an experienced user
but maybe not so for a newcomer, who will have to wait until I write the
document that explains how all these files work.

I'll upload them tomorrow and past the link.

Regards,

Antonio



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread SoundsFromSound





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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-09 Thread SoundsFromSound

Brilliant - thank you so much! I look forward to the files.

Ben



Antonio Gervasoni wrote
> Ben wrote:
> 
>> Would it be possible to see the ly file for that PDF? :) 
> 
> Hi Ben,
> 
> Yes, of course! The problem is that it is not just one file. There are
> more than 20 files involved. :-)
> 
> The file for the complete score includes a file containing the metrics,
> another one for special definitions, one with my preferences for the
> positions of percussion notes, another one with the headings for all
> staves and finally one file for each part (flutes, horns, harp, etc.) I
> could zip them all and put them in my Dropbox. However, I'm not sure if
> all things in there are self-explanatory. I guess they might be for an
> experienced user but maybe not so for a newcomer, who will have to wait
> until I write the document that explains how all these files work.
> 
> I'll upload them tomorrow and past the link.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Antonio





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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Janek Warchoł

(i cannot resist my lilypond addiction...)

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Urs Liska  wrote:
> But I probably won't touch [online tutorial] until I reformat it as a PDF 
> version. There
> had been some valuable comments on this list right after the first 'release'
> of the tutorial - which still haven't been incorporated :-(

That's why git and github rock - someone could write the changes and
you'd just have to accept the pull request.
I strongly recommend using text input for such project (which is
really great BTW!), because text input make version control effective.
I understand that LaTeX might be scary for beginners.  Maybe simply
use formatted plain text? (something like markdown, for example).

best,
Janek

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Jan-Peter Voigt

Hello Urs,

Am 09.01.2013 um 17:31 schrieb Urs Liska:
> Am 09.01.2013 13:48, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:
>> Am 09.01.2013 um 11:55 schrieb Urs Liska:
>>> Am 09.01.2013 09:13, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:
 I really would like to discuss this stuff with other ponders - but this 
 list should'nt be spoiled with such discussions and scare new users with 
 intimate scheme-expressions ...
 If we would find a place to meet, we could prepare either documentation 
 material for lilypond.org or for another lilypond related site. This might 
 be ? But I also don't want to distract important 
 development work in the basement!
>>> If it really comes to a collaborative project I suggest setting up a 
>>> dedicated mailing list.
>>> Github doesn't provide mailing lists, so we should have another one 
>>> elsewhere.
>>> Any suggestions anyone?
>> with the "Posaunenchor" (brass band), I used to play with, we 
>> connected/organized with google groups. If all interested  ponders are on 
>> facebook, a group could be formed there ... both solutions are a bit scary 
>> IMO ;)
>> but it should be functional ...
> From those options I'd prefer Google over Facebook. Not less scary, but I'd 
> consider Google more as a platform for actually _work_ together (although 
> this might be strictly emotional ...).
I would'nt say its emotional ;) FB is always scattered with ads and really 
unimportant jokes - so its a playground and it is *not* mailing list. I've just 
heard of people using it in such a way and it seems, almost anybody has an 
account.
But probably anybody has another alternative for mailing-lists.
> Is it possible to integrate a Google group with Google's issue tracker (as I 
> find Github's issue tracker somewhat too simplistic)?
I don't know, but it seems, google services are quite integrated.
> Do we actually need a _group_? Wouldn't a mailing list be enough?
Francisco already said it, I think ... google groups acts like a mailing list 
with integrated archive. One maintainer/admin needs a google account, the 
members can access it with any address.

So, shall we make a google group? I do have an infrequently used google account 
and could create a group.

Cheers, Jan-Peter


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 10.01.2013 09:03, schrieb Janek Warcho?:

(i cannot resist my lilypond addiction...)

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Urs Liska  wrote:

But I probably won't touch [online tutorial] until I reformat it as a PDF 
version. There
had been some valuable comments on this list right after the first 'release'
of the tutorial - which still haven't been incorporated :-(

That's why git and github rock - someone could write the changes and
you'd just have to accept the pull request.
I strongly recommend using text input for such project (which is
really great BTW!), because text input make version control effective.
I understand that LaTeX might be scary for beginners.  Maybe simply
use formatted plain text? (something like markdown, for example).
If nobody comes up with a better suggestion or serious objections - or 
if nobody else just offers to maintain the project and wants to do it 
differently - I will do the following:


 * Host openLilyLib in the existing Github repository
   (I didn't intend to start with this already, so it will be kind of a
   stub for some time)
 * Maintain the library's documentation and the tutorials (starting
   with Antonio's proposed text on orchestral scores and hopefully with
   a conversion of my existing tutorial) as a set of LaTeX documents.
 * I think there is no real alternative to this because
 o LaTeX documents can be easily versioned with Git
 o We are talking about LilyPond, so we wouldn't want to expose
   anything less (e.g. a collection of inconsistently looking PDFs
   created from various applications)
 * These documents can then be rendered as individual files or as a
   compiled 'book'.
 * Contributors are encouraged to provide LaTeX sources too, but
 o markdown or even plain text files would work too
 o if we are talking about the contribution of complete tutorials,
   it is also appropriate to aid in converting from, say,
   reasonably structured OpenOffice or Word documents
 o As a last resort we can even incorporate PDF documents (e.g. in
   case someone stumbles over an existing PDF where the sources
   have been lost ...)
 * We have to decide upon platforms for a 'public frontend' to the
   project, a mailing list and optionally an issue tracker (although
   Github offers one)
   Current suggestions point to use Google services for these parts.

Best
Urs



best,
Janek

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Jan-Peter Voigt

Great!
I would like to join in and I am going to host my lib/framework on github too 
with the option and goal of integration with openLilyLib and/or later lilypond.
This morning I created a github account, so I am not familiar with its services 
(beside the usage of GIT). What are you missing regarding the issue tracker?

Best,
Jan-Peter

Am 10.01.2013 um 10:43 schrieb Urs Liska:

> Am 10.01.2013 09:03, schrieb Janek Warchoł:
>> (i cannot resist my lilypond addiction...)
>> 
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Urs Liska  wrote:
>>> But I probably won't touch [online tutorial] until I reformat it as a PDF 
>>> version. There
>>> had been some valuable comments on this list right after the first 'release'
>>> of the tutorial - which still haven't been incorporated :-(
>> That's why git and github rock - someone could write the changes and
>> you'd just have to accept the pull request.
>> I strongly recommend using text input for such project (which is
>> really great BTW!), because text input make version control effective.
>> I understand that LaTeX might be scary for beginners.  Maybe simply
>> use formatted plain text? (something like markdown, for example).
> If nobody comes up with a better suggestion or serious objections - or if 
> nobody else just offers to maintain the project and wants to do it 
> differently - I will do the following:
> Host openLilyLib in the existing Github repository
> (I didn't intend to start with this already, so it will be kind of a stub for 
> some time)
> Maintain the library's documentation and the tutorials (starting with 
> Antonio's proposed text on orchestral scores and hopefully with a conversion 
> of my existing tutorial) as a set of LaTeX documents.
> I think there is no real alternative to this because
> LaTeX documents can be easily versioned with Git
> We are talking about LilyPond, so we wouldn't want to expose anything less 
> (e.g. a collection of inconsistently looking PDFs created from various 
> applications)
> These documents can then be rendered as individual files or as a compiled 
> 'book'.
> Contributors are encouraged to provide LaTeX sources too, but
> markdown or even plain text files would work too
> if we are talking about the contribution of complete tutorials, it is also 
> appropriate to aid in converting from, say, reasonably structured OpenOffice 
> or Word documents
> As a last resort we can even incorporate PDF documents (e.g. in case someone 
> stumbles over an existing PDF where the sources have been lost ...)
> We have to decide upon platforms for a 'public frontend' to the project, a 
> mailing list and optionally an issue tracker (although Github offers one)
> Current suggestions point to use Google services for these parts.
> Best 
> Urs
>> 
>> best,
>> Janek
>> 
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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 10.01.2013 11:25, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Great!
I would like to join in and I am going to host my lib/framework on 
github too with the option and goal of integration with openLilyLib 
and/or later lilypond.

That's great too!

This morning I created a github account,

What's your user name? I'd like to add you.
The standard way to collaborate on a Github project is to

 * fork a repo (i.e. create a personal copy of it)
 * make modifications to your fork
 * send a pull request (ask the maintainer to merge your changes into
   the original repo)

While this is a perfect way to start participation in a project whose 
maintainer doesn't know you, it's more straightforward to be an explicit 
collaborator with push access to the repository.

And I think we can be rather generous with that.


so I am not familiar with its services (beside the usage of GIT).
... which is _far_ more than 50% of the problem (i.e. won't face you 
with any serious problems.)

What are you missing regarding the issue tracker?
Sorry if I can't put my fingers on it very concisely (I'm still sort of 
a beginner in these areas), but as a general remark I find it somewhat 
too simplistic.
It's a tool that you can start to use right away (that seems to be 
Github's objective in general), but the downside is that it isn't very 
refined.

A few issues compared to LilyPond's issue tracker on Google Code:

 * Filtering issues isn't very good
 * You can't give priorities to issues
 * No mechanism to verify issues
 * No option to merge issues
 * (don't find more right now, but there surely are)

Someone else pointed out that it is a real problem that one (i.e. 
anybody) can edit issues and comments. You can change a message 
afterwards without leaving a trace from that.


The only real 'advantage' of Githubs tracker is that it is integrated 
with Git. So you can reference or close issues directly from commit 
messages. This is nice, especially because you'll get a message in the 
issue saying 'this issue was closed by commit asdpfj02395.

But I don't think that's really worth sticking to it.

Best
Urs



Best,
Jan-Peter

Am 10.01.2013 um 10:43 schrieb Urs Liska:


Am 10.01.2013 09:03, schrieb Janek Warcho?:

(i cannot resist my lilypond addiction...)

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Urs Liska  wrote:

But I probably won't touch [online tutorial] until I reformat it as a PDF 
version. There
had been some valuable comments on this list right after the first 'release'
of the tutorial - which still haven't been incorporated :-(

That's why git and github rock - someone could write the changes and
you'd just have to accept the pull request.
I strongly recommend using text input for such project (which is
really great BTW!), because text input make version control effective.
I understand that LaTeX might be scary for beginners.  Maybe simply
use formatted plain text? (something like markdown, for example).
If nobody comes up with a better suggestion or serious objections - 
or if nobody else just offers to maintain the project and wants to do 
it differently - I will do the following:


  * Host openLilyLib in the existing Github repository
(I didn't intend to start with this already, so it will be kind
of a stub for some time)
  * Maintain the library's documentation and the tutorials (starting
with Antonio's proposed text on orchestral scores and hopefully
with a conversion of my existing tutorial) as a set of LaTeX
documents.
  * I think there is no real alternative to this because
  o LaTeX documents can be easily versioned with Git
  o We are talking about LilyPond, so we wouldn't want to expose
anything less (e.g. a collection of inconsistently looking
PDFs created from various applications)
  * These documents can then be rendered as individual files or as a
compiled 'book'.
  * Contributors are encouraged to provide LaTeX sources too, but
  o markdown or even plain text files would work too
  o if we are talking about the contribution of complete
tutorials, it is also appropriate to aid in converting from,
say, reasonably structured OpenOffice or Word documents
  o As a last resort we can even incorporate PDF documents (e.g.
in case someone stumbles over an existing PDF where the
sources have been lost ...)
  * We have to decide upon platforms for a 'public frontend' to the
project, a mailing list and optionally an issue tracker (although
Github offers one)
Current suggestions point to use Google services for these parts.

Best
Urs


best,
Janek

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 10.01.2013 09:33, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Hello Urs,

Am 09.01.2013 um 17:31 schrieb Urs Liska:

Am 09.01.2013 13:48, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Am 09.01.2013 um 11:55 schrieb Urs Liska:

Am 09.01.2013 09:13, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

I really would like to discuss this stuff with other ponders - but this list 
should'nt be spoiled with such discussions and scare new users with intimate 
scheme-expressions ...
If we would find a place to meet, we could prepare either documentation material for 
lilypond.org or for another lilypond related site. This might be 
? But I also don't want to distract important 
development work in the basement!

If it really comes to a collaborative project I suggest setting up a dedicated 
mailing list.
Github doesn't provide mailing lists, so we should have another one elsewhere.
Any suggestions anyone?

with the "Posaunenchor" (brass band), I used to play with, we 
connected/organized with google groups. If all interested  ponders are on facebook, a 
group could be formed there ... both solutions are a bit scary IMO ;)
but it should be functional ...

 From those options I'd prefer Google over Facebook. Not less scary, but I'd 
consider Google more as a platform for actually _work_ together (although this 
might be strictly emotional ...).

I would'nt say its emotional ;) FB is always scattered with ads and really 
unimportant jokes - so its a playground and it is *not* mailing list. I've just 
heard of people using it in such a way and it seems, almost anybody has an 
account.

Thanks for pinning this down concisely ;-)

Is it possible to integrate a Google group with Google's issue tracker (as I 
find Github's issue tracker somewhat too simplistic)?

I don't know, but it seems, google services are quite integrated.
That's what one has come to reasonably expect, and probably it's also 
true for our case.


So I suggest to create a Google Site (I can do that).
From the templates I have the impression we could use 'Project work 
site' or 'Project Wiki', but I can't see the relevant differences right 
now (and I don't know yet to what extent the site can be configured 
afterwards anyway).
Obviously Google Groups are directly integrated with a site (click on 
"Join our discussion" on the starting page of the Project Wiki preview), 
so this seems a good choice.


'Project work site' has an issue tracker, but maybe one can also add 
this to any other template ...

Do we actually need a _group_? Wouldn't a mailing list be enough?

Francisco already said it, I think ... google groups acts like a mailing list 
with integrated archive. One maintainer/admin needs a google account, the 
members can access it with any address.

So, shall we make a google group? I do have an infrequently used google account 
and could create a group.

OK, that would be nice.


Would you mind also to create a tracker on Google Code (or check what 
options we'd have with a tracker within a Google Site)?


Best
Urs


Cheers, Jan-Peter


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Jan-Peter Voigt

So, tomorrow I will create a google group and look at the options of a 
google code site.

I am a bit in a hurry - my kids are waiting ;)

Cheers, Jan-Peter


Am 10.01.2013 12:30, schrieb Urs Liska:

Am 10.01.2013 09:33, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Hello Urs,

Am 09.01.2013 um 17:31 schrieb Urs Liska:

Am 09.01.2013 13:48, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Am 09.01.2013 um 11:55 schrieb Urs Liska:

Am 09.01.2013 09:13, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:
I really would like to discuss this stuff with other ponders - 
but this list should'nt be spoiled with such discussions and 
scare new users with intimate scheme-expressions ...
If we would find a place to meet, we could prepare either 
documentation material for lilypond.org or for another lilypond 
related site. This might be ? But I also 
don't want to distract important development work in the basement!
If it really comes to a collaborative project I suggest setting up 
a dedicated mailing list.
Github doesn't provide mailing lists, so we should have another 
one elsewhere.

Any suggestions anyone?
with the "Posaunenchor" (brass band), I used to play with, we 
connected/organized with google groups. If all interested  ponders 
are on facebook, a group could be formed there ... both solutions 
are a bit scary IMO ;)

but it should be functional ...
 From those options I'd prefer Google over Facebook. Not less scary, 
but I'd consider Google more as a platform for actually _work_ 
together (although this might be strictly emotional ...).
I would'nt say its emotional ;) FB is always scattered with ads and 
really unimportant jokes - so its a playground and it is *not* 
mailing list. I've just heard of people using it in such a way and it 
seems, almost anybody has an account.

Thanks for pinning this down concisely ;-)
Is it possible to integrate a Google group with Google's issue 
tracker (as I find Github's issue tracker somewhat too simplistic)?

I don't know, but it seems, google services are quite integrated.
That's what one has come to reasonably expect, and probably it's also 
true for our case.


So I suggest to create a Google Site (I can do that).
From the templates I have the impression we could use 'Project work 
site' or 'Project Wiki', but I can't see the relevant differences 
right now (and I don't know yet to what extent the site can be 
configured afterwards anyway).
Obviously Google Groups are directly integrated with a site (click on 
"Join our discussion" on the starting page of the Project Wiki 
preview), so this seems a good choice.


'Project work site' has an issue tracker, but maybe one can also add 
this to any other template ...

Do we actually need a _group_? Wouldn't a mailing list be enough?
Francisco already said it, I think ... google groups acts like a 
mailing list with integrated archive. One maintainer/admin needs a 
google account, the members can access it with any address.


So, shall we make a google group? I do have an infrequently used 
google account and could create a group.

OK, that would be nice.


Would you mind also to create a tracker on Google Code (or check what 
options we'd have with a tracker within a Google Site)?


Best
Urs


Cheers, Jan-Peter


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling


On 01/10/2013 12:09 AM, Urs Liska wrote:

It was already discussed on this list: It was a silly idea to use copyrighted
material at all for this tutorial. It was just something I was working on at
that time, and I didn't really think about it ...


To be honest, I disagree.  This is something that a standalone project can 
reasonably do which the main project can't, and it's useful, because it shows 
how to solve real, complicated notational problems in Lilypond.  Contemporary 
music, which is almost all in copyright, generally presents the most complex 
notational problems to solve, and made-up examples don't cut it because there's 
no professionally-engraved example to compare them to.


Personally I think that I small library of _real_ contemporary musical examples, 
compared to the published score, would be an extremely useful resource for 
Lilypond.  It shouldn't be difficult to secure publishers' permission for short 
extracts.



But I just reviewed my communication with UE and noticed that I (and them) only
talked about the 'measures' of the music, not about which rendering of them
(i.e. a scan of the UE edition or my new typesetting). They allowed me 'to show
these music examples on my homepage' - any other use wasn't allowed.
Which I think means that I can also put the original edition into it.


In any case, your use of these few measures probably comes under "fair use" 
exemptions for educational/teaching purposes, etc.



But I probably won't touch it until I reformat it as a PDF version. There had
been some valuable comments on this list right after the first 'release' of the
tutorial - which still haven't been incorporated :-(


I'd say, don't wait for revisions which will require some thought -- just add in 
the original image now. ;-)



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Antonio Gervasoni

Ben wrote:

> Brilliant - thank you so much! I look forward to the files.

Here's the link: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4857747/Icarus-ly.zip

You're welcome!  ;-)

An important note to anybody who finds this and has not read the previous
discussion: these zip file contains the ly files of a work which is still in
progress.

Antonio



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 10.01.2013 21:15, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:

On 01/10/2013 12:09 AM, Urs Liska wrote:
It was already discussed on this list: It was a silly idea to use 
copyrighted
material at all for this tutorial. It was just something I was 
working on at

that time, and I didn't really think about it ...


To be honest, I disagree.  This is something that a standalone project 
can reasonably do which the main project can't, and it's useful, 
because it shows how to solve real, complicated notational problems in 
Lilypond.  Contemporary music, which is almost all in copyright, 
generally presents the most complex notational problems to solve, and 
made-up examples don't cut it because there's no 
professionally-engraved example to compare them to.

I'm not really sure what to think of the issue.
Personally I don't have any problem with using the example as I did. The 
Schoenberg school happens to be one of the things I'm most engaged with 
in the last years, so it's quite natural that it 'occurs' that I use 
something from that source.
But there had been quite some discussion here whethere lilypond.org 
could link to such a tutorial or not, and I tend to agree that an Open 
Source project should have Open Documentation.


Personally I think that I small library of _real_ contemporary musical 
examples, compared to the published score, would be an extremely 
useful resource for Lilypond.  It shouldn't be difficult to secure 
publishers' permission for short extracts.


But I just reviewed my communication with UE and noticed that I (and 
them) only
talked about the 'measures' of the music, not about which rendering 
of them
(i.e. a scan of the UE edition or my new typesetting). They allowed 
me 'to show

these music examples on my homepage' - any other use wasn't allowed.
Which I think means that I can also put the original edition into it.


In any case, your use of these few measures probably comes under "fair 
use" exemptions for educational/teaching purposes, etc.
That's what I have come to think too in the meantime. So i think I'll 
include the example in our collection of tutorials, because I can't see 
me rewriting the tutorial with another example (it would surely be very 
easy to find an equivalent example in the music of Alban Berg, who ran 
out of copyright several years ago)


But I probably won't touch it until I reformat it as a PDF version. 
There had
been some valuable comments on this list right after the first 
'release' of the

tutorial - which still haven't been incorporated :-(


I'd say, don't wait for revisions which will require some thought -- 
just add in the original image now. ;-)
Maybe you're right. Today I realized that I really only have to replace 
the image, without updating a single word ...
It's just a matter of deciding to take the time to acquire the image, 
either by extracting it from the IMSLP score or by getting my own score 
home and make a scan ...


Best
Urs



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Graham Percival

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 09:15:42PM +0100, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
> On 01/10/2013 12:09 AM, Urs Liska wrote:
> >It was already discussed on this list: It was a silly idea to use copyrighted
> >material at all for this tutorial. It was just something I was working on at
> >that time, and I didn't really think about it ...
> 
> To be honest, I disagree.  This is something that a standalone
> project can reasonably do which the main project can't, and it's
> useful, because it shows how to solve real, complicated notational
> problems in Lilypond.

Unless you are planning this as a protest, I doubt that
deliberately setting out to infringe on copyright is a great
strategy.  Are you really equipped to deal with a lawsuit from
music publishers -- especially since there's now a public record
of your awareness that you intend to break the law?

> Contemporary music, which is almost all in
> copyright, generally presents the most complex notational problems
> to solve, and made-up examples don't cut it because there's no
> professionally-engraved example to compare them to.

I have never looked at Trevor Baca's or Mike Solomon's scores and
thought "gee, that looks somewhat nice, but I really can't praise
it more because I don't have an existing score to compare it to."
Their work is *absolutely beautiful* by itself.

I find it astounding that a group of composers keep on suggesting
that it's impossible to either create nice examples or use
material from their own scores.  It isn't precisely hard to find
beautiful material in Mike's work, and most of them are already
available in pdf form!  I can't remember off-hand if the ly source
is available, nor whether it's under copyleft, but if not then he
would almost certainly be willing to license a few bars under a
permissive license.

> Personally I think that I small library of _real_ contemporary
> musical examples, compared to the published score, would be an
> extremely useful resource for Lilypond.  It shouldn't be difficult
> to secure publishers' permission for short extracts.

If you truly want to spend a few hours writing letters to
publishers, I would be interested to hear the results.

> >But I just reviewed my communication with UE and noticed that I (and them) 
> >only
> >talked about the 'measures' of the music, not about which rendering of them
> >(i.e. a scan of the UE edition or my new typesetting). They allowed me 'to 
> >show
> >these music examples on my homepage' - any other use wasn't allowed.
> >Which I think means that I can also put the original edition into it.
> 
> In any case, your use of these few measures probably comes under
> "fair use" exemptions for educational/teaching purposes, etc.

No.  "Fair use" would apply in *some* (not all) countries only if
this was a treatise about that particular composer's style.  One
of the "smell tests" is whether the educational goal could be
achieved *without* using copywritten material -- which is
certainly could be.

- Graham

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Graham Percival

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 10:43:42AM +0100, Urs Liska wrote:
>  * Maintain the library's documentation and the tutorials (starting
>with Antonio's proposed text on orchestral scores and hopefully with
>a conversion of my existing tutorial) as a set of LaTeX documents.
>  * I think there is no real alternative to this because

Why LaTeX as opposed to texinfo?  If it's latex, do you plan to
use latex2html, or simply not offer any html output at all?  If
you work in texinfo, then material could be added to the main
lilypond documentation, exposing it to more readers.

- Graham

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 10.01.2013 22:26, schrieb Graham Percival:

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 10:43:42AM +0100, Urs Liska wrote:

  * Maintain the library's documentation and the tutorials (starting
with Antonio's proposed text on orchestral scores and hopefully with
a conversion of my existing tutorial) as a set of LaTeX documents.
  * I think there is no real alternative to this because

Why LaTeX as opposed to texinfo?

You want me to be honest? Because I don't know anything about it.

  If it's latex, do you plan to
use latex2html, or simply not offer any html output at all?

So far we're only talking about creating PDF documents.
If anybody steps in (your email partially fulfils this already) 
convincing us that it makes sense to switch to something different (and 
gives some hints on where to start or ideally offers help) I don't think 
anybody will object.

If
you work in texinfo, then material could be added to the main
lilypond documentation, exposing it to more readers.

Do you think that's a realistic option?
Would lilypond documentation be 'open' enough to incorporate material 
that might not be too tailored to the given structure or style?


Urs


- Graham

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread David Kastrup

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 10.01.2013 22:26, schrieb Graham Percival:
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 10:43:42AM +0100, Urs Liska wrote:
>>>   * Maintain the library's documentation and the tutorials (starting
>>> with Antonio's proposed text on orchestral scores and hopefully with
>>> a conversion of my existing tutorial) as a set of LaTeX documents.
>>>   * I think there is no real alternative to this because
>> Why LaTeX as opposed to texinfo?
> You want me to be honest? Because I don't know anything about it.
>>   If it's latex, do you plan to
>> use latex2html, or simply not offer any html output at all?
> So far we're only talking about creating PDF documents.
> If anybody steps in (your email partially fulfils this already)
> convincing us that it makes sense to switch to something different
> (and gives some hints on where to start or ideally offers help) I
> don't think anybody will object.
>> If
>> you work in texinfo, then material could be added to the main
>> lilypond documentation, exposing it to more readers.
> Do you think that's a realistic option?
> Would lilypond documentation be 'open' enough to incorporate material
> that might not be too tailored to the given structure or style?

Various parts of LilyPond's documentation have different styles.  I see
no problem whatsoever with providing a "user reports" manual where each
chapter has the personal style of its author.

The long-term problem is maintenance: preserving consistency of style
while the content wants to be changed along with changes of LilyPond
itself.  Of course it will help when the original author continues to
feel responsible for keeping his report matched to current LilyPond
versions.

-- 
David Kastrup


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 10.01.2013 22:37, schrieb David Kastrup:

Urs Liska  writes:
...

Do you think that's a realistic option?
Would lilypond documentation be 'open' enough to incorporate material
that might not be too tailored to the given structure or style?

Various parts of LilyPond's documentation have different styles.  I see
no problem whatsoever with providing a "user reports" manual where each
chapter has the personal style of its author.

The long-term problem is maintenance: preserving consistency of style
while the content wants to be changed along with changes of LilyPond
itself.  Of course it will help when the original author continues to
feel responsible for keeping his report matched to current LilyPond
versions.

So what would be needed from our part (just started to skim through the 
Texinfo manual)?
If we would write the sources for our tutorials as Texinfo documents we 
could then suggest to add any of them to Lily docs (if we find it 
appropriate)? Or would they have to adhere to some more (technical) 
restrictions?


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread David Kastrup

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 10.01.2013 22:37, schrieb David Kastrup:
>> Urs Liska  writes:
>> ...
>>> Do you think that's a realistic option?
>>> Would lilypond documentation be 'open' enough to incorporate material
>>> that might not be too tailored to the given structure or style?
>> Various parts of LilyPond's documentation have different styles.  I see
>> no problem whatsoever with providing a "user reports" manual where each
>> chapter has the personal style of its author.
>>
>> The long-term problem is maintenance: preserving consistency of style
>> while the content wants to be changed along with changes of LilyPond
>> itself.  Of course it will help when the original author continues to
>> feel responsible for keeping his report matched to current LilyPond
>> versions.
>>
> So what would be needed from our part (just started to skim through
> the Texinfo manual)?
> If we would write the sources for our tutorials as Texinfo documents
> we could then suggest to add any of them to Lily docs (if we find it
> appropriate)? Or would they have to adhere to some more (technical)
> restrictions?

I think it would make sense to open a separate document for them.
Collaborators would then work on a branch where this document exists
(similar to the translation branch we have) and would edit their
personal chapters in separate files.  That would cause minimal merge
conflicts.

That's a setup for continuous work.  Depending on people's personal
choices, getting the _text_ off the ground might work faster using LaTeX
or whatever to bring the document into the shape one considers good
using LilyPond-book, and then afterwards convert en bloc to Texinfo.

However, I found it sometimes problematic to map the chapter structure
of a typical LaTeX document to the node structure of Texinfo.  It's
partly a question of the optimal size of chunks of information.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 10.01.2013 22:56, schrieb David Kastrup:

Urs Liska  writes:


...
So what would be needed from our part (just started to skim through
the Texinfo manual)?
If we would write the sources for our tutorials as Texinfo documents
we could then suggest to add any of them to Lily docs (if we find it
appropriate)? Or would they have to adhere to some more (technical)
restrictions?

I think it would make sense to open a separate document for them.
Collaborators would then work on a branch where this document exists
(similar to the translation branch we have) and would edit their
personal chapters in separate files.  That would cause minimal merge
conflicts.

That's a setup for continuous work.  Depending on people's personal
choices, getting the _text_ off the ground might work faster using LaTeX
or whatever to bring the document into the shape one considers good
using LilyPond-book, and then afterwards convert en bloc to Texinfo.

However, I found it sometimes problematic to map the chapter structure
of a typical LaTeX document to the node structure of Texinfo.  It's
partly a question of the optimal size of chunks of information.


OK, I think I see.
I'll look a little more into Texinfo and will discuss the issue before 
anybody starts serious work.


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling


On 01/10/2013 10:24 PM, Graham Percival wrote:

Unless you are planning this as a protest, I doubt that
deliberately setting out to infringe on copyright is a great
strategy.  Are you really equipped to deal with a lawsuit from
music publishers -- especially since there's now a public record
of your awareness that you intend to break the law?


Excuse me?  Where did I say I planned breaking the law or infringing copyright?

What I actually said was,

Personally I think that I small library of _real_ contemporary musical
examples, compared to the published score, would be an extremely useful
resource for Lilypond.  IT SHOULDN'T BE DIFFICULT TO SECURE PUBLISHERS'
PERMISSION FOR SHORT EXTRACTS.

... which I know you read, because you responded to it.  It's not breaking the 
law or infringing copyright if you secure permission of the copyright holder.



I have never looked at Trevor Baca's or Mike Solomon's scores and
thought "gee, that looks somewhat nice, but I really can't praise
it more because I don't have an existing score to compare it to."
Their work is *absolutely beautiful* by itself.


Whoever said anything about praising it more or less?  This is a practical 
question -- Lilypond users and developers have gained a great deal out of 
comparing Lilypond's output very precisely to professionally-engraved examples 
of classical-period works (e.g. the introductory Essay, Janek's Mozart example 
in Lilypond Report 26), and there's value in making similar comparisons to 
contemporary music examples.



I find it astounding that a group of composers keep on suggesting
that it's impossible to either create nice examples or use
material from their own scores.


My concern isn't about "nice examples" or showing off the beauty of Lilypond's 
output, it's about learning and teaching by comparison to published works, and 
there's a greater diversity of comparisons to be made by considering scores from 
composers outside the Lilypond community.



It isn't precisely hard to find
beautiful material in Mike's work, and most of them are already
available in pdf form!  I can't remember off-hand if the ly source
is available, nor whether it's under copyleft, but if not then he
would almost certainly be willing to license a few bars under a
permissive license.


Which is great, but is solving a different problem.


If you truly want to spend a few hours writing letters to
publishers, I would be interested to hear the results.


Happy to do so.  If Urs can get permission for his bars of Schoenberg from UE, I 
don't see that it will be a problem for other works.



No.  "Fair use" would apply in *some* (not all) countries only if
this was a treatise about that particular composer's style.  One
of the "smell tests" is whether the educational goal could be
achieved *without* using copywritten material -- which is
certainly could be.


The greater problem is that some countries simply don't _have_ fair use rights 
... :-(  However, in this case the point is moot as Urs _did_ secure the 
copyright holder's permission.


I really don't see why you've let rip on me like this simply for reassuring Urs 
that his choice of a contemporary work by a well-known composer actually had 
some value.  No, it's not suitable for official Lilypond documentation because 
of licensing issues, but for a third-party resource there's no legal barrier so 
long as publisher permission is secured.


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling


On 01/10/2013 10:19 PM, Urs Liska wrote:

But there had been quite some discussion here whethere lilypond.org could link
to such a tutorial or not, and I tend to agree that an Open Source project
should have Open Documentation.


I agree, but I also think there's a difference between official documentation 
and 3rd-party resources.  The linking is an issue, but even if such examples 
can't officially be endorsed by the project, they can still be created and be 
useful.


My suspicion is that the fears about linking stem from an overly paranoid 
interpretation of FSF guidelines -- after all, the FSF have given awards to 
Wikipedia, which includes a copious amount of non-free media used under "fair 
use" provisions.



That's what I have come to think too in the meantime. So i think I'll include
the example in our collection of tutorials, because I can't see me rewriting the
tutorial with another example (it would surely be very easy to find an
equivalent example in the music of Alban Berg, who ran out of copyright several
years ago)


Hmm, be careful with Berg.  The later works (published post-1923) are probably 
still in copyright in the US.  Should be fine with something like the String 
Quartet, or the Four Pieces for clarinet and piano.



Maybe you're right. Today I realized that I really only have to replace the
image, without updating a single word ...
It's just a matter of deciding to take the time to acquire the image, either by
extracting it from the IMSLP score or by getting my own score home and make a
scan ...


It's on IMSLP?  I looked, but couldn't find it ...


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 10.01.2013 23:19, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:

...


If you truly want to spend a few hours writing letters to
publishers, I would be interested to hear the results.


Happy to do so.  If Urs can get permission for his bars of Schoenberg 
from UE, I don't see that it will be a problem for other works.


Just evading your controversy I'd like to sum up my communication with 
UE on this matter. While it isn't anything spectaular it may be 
interesting as a 'real world' example.


I sent an email asking for the permission to use the four measures 'as 
examples for a notation tutorial which I would publish on my homepage'. 
I attached the pdf of my lilypond score (not the scan from the UE score).


The reply was quite simple:
'We give you the permission to show the music examples on your homepage. 
This doesn't imply any further use, which is not allowed.' (Followed by 
the copyright remark to be used.


So strictly speaking they didn't explicitely allow me to publish source 
code to reproduce the music.

And nothing was said about the terms under which I should distribute it.
Also nothing was said about the scan vs. new typesetting issue.

Bottom line: They didn't make very explicit statements, but they 
probably don't really care about the case. From a pragmatical 
perspective this comes quite close to 'fair use' (although it probably 
isn't).


Urs

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 10.01.2013 23:33, schrieb Joseph Rushton Wakeling:

On 01/10/2013 10:19 PM, Urs Liska wrote:
But there had been quite some discussion here whethere lilypond.org 
could link
to such a tutorial or not, and I tend to agree that an Open Source 
project

should have Open Documentation.


I agree, but I also think there's a difference between official 
documentation and 3rd-party resources.  The linking is an issue, but 
even if such examples can't officially be endorsed by the project, 
they can still be created and be useful.


My suspicion is that the fears about linking stem from an overly 
paranoid interpretation of FSF guidelines -- after all, the FSF have 
given awards to Wikipedia, which includes a copious amount of non-free 
media used under "fair use" provisions.


That's what I have come to think too in the meantime. So i think I'll 
include
the example in our collection of tutorials, because I can't see me 
rewriting the

tutorial with another example (it would surely be very easy to find an
equivalent example in the music of Alban Berg, who ran out of 
copyright several

years ago)


Hmm, be careful with Berg.  The later works (published post-1923) are 
probably still in copyright in the US.  Should be fine with something 
like the String Quartet, or the Four Pieces for clarinet and piano.


Maybe you're right. Today I realized that I really only have to 
replace the

image, without updating a single word ...

Done :-)
It's just a matter of deciding to take the time to acquire the image, 
either by
extracting it from the IMSLP score or by getting my own score home 
and make a

scan ...


It's on IMSLP?  I looked, but couldn't find it ...

Then re-look...
I also overlooked initially, because it isn't ordered by *S*ix, but by 6 
*O*rchestral songs.

But there is the orchestral score as well as the piano reduction.



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 11.01.2013 01:20, schrieb Urs Liska:

...


Maybe you're right. Today I realized that I really only have to 
replace the

image, without updating a single word ...

Done :-)
Sorry, forgot to post where it is: 
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-1-entering-the-music.html



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska


Am 09.01.2013 14:50, schrieb Francisco Vila:

2013/1/8 Urs Liska :

You can have a look at
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks.html
if you want.

Urs:

in

   
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/12-the-first-voice.html

should it be

   
onclick="openPic('http://lilypond.ursliska.de/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&

instead of

   onclick="openPic('http://lilypond.ursliska.deindex.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&
...?

Pop-up window do not work because of lack of '/' after ursliska.de and
before index.php

Hmm. Sorry, I don't see where the error is.
It's not me who created these links, it's just a built-in function of my 
CMS Typo3.

I don't see ATM how to change this ...

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling


On 01/11/2013 01:24 AM, Urs Liska wrote:

Sorry, forgot to post where it is:
http://lilypond.ursliska.de/notensatz/lilypond-tutorials/tackle-complex-tasks/part-1-entering-the-music.html


Thanks for that. :-)

One note -- there was something I was wondering about looking at your example, 
and the UE score confirms it -- you need to address the placement of accents in 
m.1 voice 3.  Look how the second accent is placed inside the slur, and the 
third is placed _above_ rather than below the eighth-note.


As it is in your LP rendering, the 3rd accent (and possibly the second too) is 
ambiguous about which note it actually applies to.


You could also consider:

-- the placement of the noteheads in the left hand in m.2 -- Lilypond
   reverses the order of the first notes of the F and E-flat on the
   first beat of the bar

-- the placement of the \fff in measure 3.  I'm actually not sure that
   the placement of the accent right in the middle, right in-between
   RH and LH chords, isn't meant to imply it applies to _both_ hands ...


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread SoundsFromSound

Incredible share, thank you so much!  I wish I knew as much about the
"includes" and whatnot that you do; I only use one file per one score at the
moment.  

I can't seem to figure out how to open say, just one instrument part, of
your score.  It just renders a blank page.  Surely I am missing some
connection to another file.

I need to brush up on the "includes" I think!

Thanks again for sharing! :)

Ben

Antonio Gervasoni wrote
> Ben wrote:
> 
>> Brilliant - thank you so much! I look forward to the files.
> 
> Here's the link: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4857747/Icarus-ly.zip
> 
> You're welcome!  ;-)
> 
> An important note to anybody who finds this and has not read the previous
> discussion: these zip file contains the ly files of a work which is still
> in progress.
> 
> Antonio

-
composer | sound designer
--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Guide-to-Writing-Orchestral-Scores-with-Lilypond-tp139065p139296.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread Urs Liska

I think that's what Antonio referred to: the material is provided 'as is', i.e. 
only partly useable and understandable.
You either have to _work_ your way through it or wait until he has written his 
essay ;-)



SoundsFromSound  schrieb:

>Incredible share, thank you so much!  I wish I knew as much about the
>"includes" and whatnot that you do; I only use one file per one score
>at the
>moment.  
>
>I can't seem to figure out how to open say, just one instrument part,
>of
>your score.  It just renders a blank page.  Surely I am missing some
>connection to another file.
>
>I need to brush up on the "includes" I think!
>
>Thanks again for sharing! :)
>
>Ben
>
>
>Antonio Gervasoni wrote
>> Ben wrote:
>> 
>>> Brilliant - thank you so much! I look forward to the files.
>> 
>> Here's the link: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4857747/Icarus-ly.zip
>> 
>> You're welcome!  ;-)
>> 
>> An important note to anybody who finds this and has not read the
>previous
>> discussion: these zip file contains the ly files of a work which is
>still
>> in progress.
>> 
>> Antonio
>
>
>
>
>
>-
>composer | sound designer
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Guide-to-Writing-Orchestral-Scores-with-Lilypond-tp139065p139296.html
>Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-10 Thread SoundsFromSound

Oh, duh.

Sorry! You're right.

Ben


Urs Liska-4 wrote
> I think that's what Antonio referred to: the material is provided 'as is',
> i.e. only partly useable and understandable.
> You either have to _work_ your way through it or wait until he has written
> his essay ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> SoundsFromSound <

> soundsfromsound@

> > schrieb:
> 
>>Incredible share, thank you so much!  I wish I knew as much about the
>>"includes" and whatnot that you do; I only use one file per one score
>>at the
>>moment.  
>>
>>I can't seem to figure out how to open say, just one instrument part,
>>of
>>your score.  It just renders a blank page.  Surely I am missing some
>>connection to another file.
>>
>>I need to brush up on the "includes" I think!
>>
>>Thanks again for sharing! :)
>>
>>Ben
>>
>>
>>Antonio Gervasoni wrote
>>> Ben wrote:
>>> 
 Brilliant - thank you so much! I look forward to the files.
>>> 
>>> Here's the link: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4857747/Icarus-ly.zip
>>> 
>>> You're welcome!  ;-)
>>> 
>>> An important note to anybody who finds this and has not read the
>>previous
>>> discussion: these zip file contains the ly files of a work which is
>>still
>>> in progress.
>>> 
>>> Antonio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-
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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-11 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling


On 01/11/2013 12:44 AM, Urs Liska wrote:

Bottom line: They didn't make very explicit statements, but they probably don't
really care about the case. From a pragmatical perspective this comes quite
close to 'fair use' (although it probably isn't).


Well, I am not a lawyer, but my impression is that what they really mean is, 
just because they gave you permission to include it in a tutorial on your 
website, doesn't mean that you have permission to include it in a book, or 
someone else's website, or a video on YouTube, or to grant the permissions you 
have received to anyone else, or any of the other things that one might 
theoretically want to do.


I doubt very much that they care about you showing how to re-implement these few 
bars in a notation program.


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-11 Thread Wim van Dommelen



On 10 Jan 2013, at 12:16 , Urs Liska wrote:

..

This morning I created a github account,

What's your user name? I'd like to add you.


To start with, I also created a github account: wimvd00, please add me  
in for this project also.


..

Regards,
Wim.






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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-11 Thread SoundsFromSound

I must have missed something in this long thread, because all this
law/lawyer/copyright talk is distracting.  I'm assuming it is concerning the
4-measure example on that website or something? Am I close?

Can someone summarize the complaint/situation please?  Thank you!

Ben



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-11 Thread Urs Liska

I think it boils down to:
- can a GNU project link to (or promote in any other way) non-free 
documentation?
- can I license a tutorial as free if it contains copyrighted material 
(considered I got explicit permission to display the example on my web site for 
the tutorial).

Somewhat theoretical, I think. But probably necessary anyway.



SoundsFromSound  schrieb:

>I must have missed something in this long thread, because all this
>law/lawyer/copyright talk is distracting.  I'm assuming it is
>concerning the
>4-measure example on that website or something? Am I close?
>
>Can someone summarize the complaint/situation please?  Thank you!
>
>Ben
>
>
>
>-
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RE: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-11 Thread Daniel Rosen

> -Original Message-
> From: Joseph Rushton Wakeling [mailto:joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net]
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 6:43 AM
> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?
> 
> On 01/11/2013 12:44 AM, Urs Liska wrote:

> I doubt very much that they care about you showing how to re-implement
> these few bars in a notation program.
> 

Don't be so sure. I'm no lawyer either, but from where I sit they were very 
explicit and specific: the music may be displayed on Urs' homepage, and that's 
it, period--and since he took the trouble to ask for permission, they may very 
well check to make sure he complies with that. Sure, they might not think it's 
worth the bother to bring legal action, but I personally wouldn't want to take 
the risk, however miniscule it may be.

DR

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-11 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling


On 01/11/2013 07:52 PM, Urs Liska wrote:

I think it boils down to:
- can a GNU project link to (or promote in any other way) non-free 
documentation?
- can I license a tutorial as free if it contains copyrighted material
(considered I got explicit permission to display the example on my web site for
the tutorial).


Well, here's what _I_ would do in your shoes: license freely all the parts of 
the tutorial that are your copyright, and add a clear exception notice for 
musical examples that are still in copyright.  So basically what you'd be saying 
is, "Feel free to copy and make use of any of this except for the stuff that is 
owned by other people."  I would personally go with a permissive rather than 
copyleft license because that way there's no legal problem in combining the 
freely-licensed material with non-free stuff.


So, that way you have a tutorial that is _almost all_ free with the exceptions 
being short musical extracts used as examples.  You can extend this by including 
plenty of other musical examples that are out of copyright or freely licensed. 
With that kind of policy, it is _probably_ acceptable for this work to be linked 
to by Lilypond, just as the FSF considers Wikipedia acceptable even though it 
does contain some non-free material used in a "fair use" context.


If anyone from GNU did complain, you'd have a clear argument that this was 
almost entirely free documentation and that the few non-free examples included 
were only there in order to support the overall goal of adoption and use of a 
free software package.  And even if the objection was sustained, all that would 
happen is that Lilypond would have to remove its official website link -- your 
work wouldn't cease to be known or useful because of that.


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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-11 Thread David Kastrup

Urs Liska  writes:

> I think it boils down to:
> - can a GNU project link to (or promote in any other way) non-free
> documentation?

Not as much "can" but rather "should", and the answer to that is "no".

> - can I license a tutorial as free if it contains copyrighted material
> (considered I got explicit permission to display the example on my web
> site for the tutorial).

I don't understand what you mean with "license as free".  You can do
with the copyrighted material whatever you got permission for.  If you
relicense it under the GPL, any recipients are free to copy and modify
it for any purpose according to the license conditions of the GFDL.

You have not, as far as I can see, been given a permission to relicense
under such terms.  It may be worth asking for it, though.  The worst
that can happen to the copyright holders is that those four bars become
ubiquitous and people all over make a sport of writing "variations of
four bars of Schönberg".  As long as the four bars remain the same (and
people do not ask for four different bars every time until the whole
piece is available freely), I can't imagine this _reducing_ the amount
of full copies the copyright owners have a chance of selling.  I even
can't imagine this reducing the amount of licenses they hand out for
those bars explicitly: people seriously basing compositions on those
bars will likely not be happy to license them under GFDL, and so they
will ask for a proprietary license from the copyright holders anyway.

So there is some chance that, as long as we really are talking about
four bars here, you can get an "ok" from the copyright holders.

You definitely should not try making any use of that material, including
relicensing it, that you don't have permission for.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-11 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling


On 01/11/2013 10:10 PM, David Kastrup wrote:

Not as much "can" but rather "should", and the answer to that is "no".


"Should" needs to be tempered by a measure of common sense about whether doing 
so serves the goals of the GNU project.  Since the goal of a tutorial as 
described here would be to make it easier for people to adopt free software, it 
might well be considered an acceptable compromise.


After all, it'd be a 3rd-party tutorial, not the official documentation.


I don't understand what you mean with "license as free".  You can do
with the copyrighted material whatever you got permission for.  If you
relicense it under the GPL, any recipients are free to copy and modify
it for any purpose according to the license conditions of the GFDL.


Here's the situation as I see it.

   -- You have 4-5 bars of music, which is under copyright, and for which you
  have been given permission by the publisher to use for purposes of a
  tutorial.  There's no permission given to relicense or use in any
  other context than the tutorial.

   -- You have the text of the tutorial _which you have written_.  You hold
  the copyright for this text, so you're at liberty to license this as you
  see fit, so long as you add a clear exception for the in-copyright musical
  examples.

   -- It helps if you choose a free but non-copyleft license, e.g. Creative
  Commons Attribution (CC-BY) or the GNU All-Permissive license, because
  then there is no confusion over whether the licensing of the tutorial
  text must be extended also to the musical examples.

So, what you end up with is a text which is almost all freely licensed but which 
includes a few images or short musical examples whose use is restricted.


The worst-case scenario of this (since you have permission for the examples in 
your own tutorial) is that people who want to create derivative works have to 
remove the non-free examples or secure permission from the publishers 
themselves.  But if you make sure that there are plenty of musical examples that 
_are_ free, this should be a minimal hassle.



You have not, as far as I can see, been given a permission to relicense
under such terms.  It may be worth asking for it, though.


Agree.  Even if you can't secure a free license for the few bars, you might well 
be able to secure a license to redistribute verbatim copies.



You definitely should not try making any use of that material, including
relicensing it, that you don't have permission for.


Also agree -- I'd hoped this much was clearer in what I'd already written. :-(

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-12 Thread Antonio Gervasoni

Ben wrote

> I wish I knew as much about the "includes" and whatnot 
> that you do; I only use one file per one score at the moment.   
> 
> I can't seem to figure out how to open say, just one instrument part, of
> your score.
> It just renders a blank page.  Surely I am missing some connection to
> another file.

Hi Ben!

The include command is very easy to understand. Just read the chapter in the
manual or do a quick search and you'll get the grasp of it in no time.

Some parts are split in two files: "InstrumentNameMusic.ly" and
"InstrumentName.Score.ly". The part is generated from the latter. The former
contains only the music itself (notes, rests, slurs, etc.)

A few parts are not divided this way and show only the name of the
instrument, meaning that everything needed to generate the score is in
there.

I don't know which operating system you use. I'm on a Mac with Snow Leopard
10.6.8. I use Frescobaldi as a GUI.

So it's just a blank page? Isn't there some error mesage?

Antonio




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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-12 Thread Antonio Gervasoni

Hey guys!

Sorry for not participating in the discussion about the copyrighted material
in Urs tutorial. I'm finishing the music for a film and I have little time
to read posts and make comments. ;-)

I agree with Joseph's idea:

> Well, here's what _I_ would do in your shoes: license freely all the parts
> of
> the tutorial that are your copyright, and add a clear exception notice for
> musical examples that are still in copyright.

However, I'm not a lawyer so I'm sure if this would work.

All these problems with copyrights are always a real hassle. Copyrights are
good, I mean, the idea itself is good. The problem is that the law has taken
the matter to amazing extremes. Is there any sense in a legislation that
allows someone to be accused of piracy and then sued for billions of
dollars, while a doctor who amputates the wrong leg of a patient is liable
for no more than 250,000? Does this make any sense? Are copyrights more
valuable than someone's leg?

Also, according to recent studies, almost a third of the american population
have at least once downloaded a song illegally. This means that, according
to the law, more than 300 million americans are effectively criminals.
Again, copyrights are good (I'm an author so I am of course pro-copyrights),
but the law has been twisted in a way it should have never been.

I'd recommend everyone to read the book Free-Culture, by Lawrence Lessig,
Professor of Law at Harvard Law School. It can be downloaded freely from
here: http://www.free-culture.cc/ Another very good book (which I haven't
finished yet) is: The Public Domain, Enclosing the Commons of the Mind, by
James Boyle (also free!). If you are an author, then you should read these
books! I have, and they have been a revelation to me!

I'm not a US citizen. I don't even live in the US! But we now live in a
global market, and what a country does - especially the United States -
affects other countries as well, so I have a concern for what happens there,
and I'm afraid it might begin to happen where I live too (though I don't
really think it's possible due to the differences between our legal
systems... but who knows!)

I apologize for making an off-thread comment but, after reading so many
posts about copyrights, I felt the need to say something that would be
useful to generate some awareness about the problem that has been created
around copyrights by greedy companies and corporations. I don't want this
thread to become a discussion about copyrights. I hope it doesn't! I won't
say another word about it here, I promise!

Now, about the tutorial for creating orchestral scores with Lilypond, I just
want to tell everyone that I have started working on it. I still have to
finish the music for the film first, then I have to finish the score
(Icarus) and then I also have to prepare my classes for the next semester (I
teach at a local university). So I'd say it's gonna take me at least a
couple of months to finish the document (possibly three!). I'm writing it in
LaTeX, as Urs suggested, and will send it to him so that it can be included
in his project.

Regards,

Antonio

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-12 Thread David Kastrup

Antonio Gervasoni  writes:

> Hey guys!
>
> Sorry for not participating in the discussion about the copyrighted material
> in Urs tutorial. I'm finishing the music for a film and I have little time
> to read posts and make comments. ;-)
>
> I agree with Joseph's idea:
>
>> Well, here's what _I_ would do in your shoes: license freely all the parts
>> of 
>> the tutorial that are your copyright, and add a clear exception notice for 
>> musical examples that are still in copyright.
>
> However, I'm not a lawyer so I'm sure if this would work.
>
> All these problems with copyrights are always a real hassle. Copyrights are
> good, I mean, the idea itself is good. The problem is that the law has taken
> the matter to amazing extremes. Is there any sense in a legislation that
> allows someone to be accused of piracy and then sued for billions of
> dollars, while a doctor who amputates the wrong leg of a patient is liable
> for no more than 250,000? Does this make any sense? Are copyrights more
> valuable than someone's leg?

The basis for that is "damages".  A doctor accidentally amputating the
leg of a professional soccer player is likely in for more than "just"
25.  Is the leg of a professional soccer player more valuable than
that of anybody else?  In a way, it is.

The problem is rather that copyright damages are calculated according to
some "maximum conceivable damage" theory not applied to legs (after all,
pretty much everybody sufficiently young could become a soccer player),
and that copyrights are making too much money, anyway, at the upper end
of the scale.  There is no other situation where scoring a major hit is
supposed to cater for you and some heirs for the rest of your life.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-13 Thread Francisco Vila

2013/1/13 Antonio Gervasoni :

> Again, copyrights are good (I'm an author so I am of course pro-copyrights),

Unless you are a boss of a greedy company that makes money by
intimidating people using copyright, you can be an author and be
against copyright, or at least question it. So this 'ofcourse' is not
so much ofcourse for me. As a free software lover and humble
contributor, I find copiright valuable as long as it protects my work
as being mine, but due credit is very different from
exclusive/infinite rights we are getting used to.

> but the law has been twisted in a way it should have never been.

+1
-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-14 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling


On 01/13/2013 12:09 AM, Antonio Gervasoni wrote:

However, I'm not a lawyer so I'm sure if this would work.


Well, there are surely organizations out there (Creative Commons, Software 
Freedom Conservancy, ...) who can advise.


That said, as long as you secure the copyright holders' permission for use of 
the musical extracts, and you are explicit that the free license does not apply 
to those extracts, I don't see what grounds there would be for complaint.



I apologize for making an off-thread comment  but, after reading so many
posts about copyrights, I felt the need to say something that would be
useful to generate some awareness about the problem that has been created
around copyrights by greedy companies and corporations. I don't want this
thread to become a discussion about copyrights. I hope it doesn't! I won't
say another word about it here, I promise!


You're preaching to the converted here, I fear ... :-)


Now, about the tutorial for creating orchestral scores with Lilypond, I just
want to tell everyone that I have started working on it. I still have to
finish the music for the film first, then I have to finish the score
(Icarus) and then I also have to prepare my classes for the next semester (I
teach at a local university). So I'd say it's gonna take me at least a
couple of months to finish the document (possibly three!). I'm writing it in
LaTeX, as Urs suggested, and will send it to him so that it can be included
in his project.


Will you be publicly sharing your drafts?  I'm sure people would be happy to 
give feedback and contributions on the way.



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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-15 Thread Antonio Gervasoni

Joseph wrote:

> You're preaching to the converted here, I fear ... :-)

Very true :-P

> Will you be publicly sharing your drafts?  I'm sure people would be happy
> to 
> give feedback and contributions on the way.

Urs has almost convinced me about using Git so i't's very likely I will get
a Github account and start collaborating directly with his project.
According to him my "source code would be public this way right from the
beginning. But the tutorial itself (in its PDF representation) would be
hidden as long as [I] wish."

Regards,

Antonio

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-01-15 Thread Urs Liska

Am 16.01.2013 00:01, schrieb Antonio Gervasoni:

Joseph wrote:

You're preaching to the converted here, I fear ... :-)

Very true :-P

Will you be publicly sharing your drafts? I'm sure people would be happy
to
give feedback and contributions on the way.

Urs has almost convinced me about using Git so i't's very likely I will get
a Github account and start collaborating directly with his project.
According to him my "source code would be public this way right from the
beginning. But the tutorial itself (in its PDF representation) would be
hidden as long as [I] wish."
If you are going to do the switch, you will work on your own 'branch'
(branching is maybe Git's killer feature I didn't tell you about so far
...).
That means your source code is somewhat separate from the 'master'
branch, but anybody who wants can see it.
Well, the PDF wouldn't (couldn't) be _really_ hidden. Anybody can access
the source code and can therefore compile it to a PDF - provided he/she
has the appropriate LaTeX infrastructure available. But we just wouldn't
publish the PDF on our own.
In effect this would mean that your work isn't at a prominent place, but
visible to anybody who cares.

Best
Urs

Regards,

Antonio

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

2013-03-04 Thread Urs Liska


Just for the record:
I finally took the time to write to UE again about the issue.

I asked for the permission to use the music example (to recall: 4 
measures from a Schoenberg score) in a tutorial that is distributed as 
part of a collection of tutorials.
The license should allow to redistribute the text unmodified or 
modified, but I offered to exclude the _musical_ content from this free 
license (i.e. allow to redistribute it unmodified and with the 
appropriate copyright remark).


It took about five minutes to get the reply that they allow this use 
provided I don't remove their copyright remark and the link to their web 
site.


Good to know in general, and good to know that I can use the text 
without having to redo it with a different music example.


Best
Urs

Am 11.01.2013 20:26, schrieb Daniel Rosen:

-Original Message-
From: Joseph Rushton Wakeling [mailto:joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 6:43 AM
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?

On 01/11/2013 12:44 AM, Urs Liska wrote:
I doubt very much that they care about you showing how to re-implement
these few bars in a notation program.


Don't be so sure. I'm no lawyer either, but from where I sit they were very 
explicit and specific: the music may be displayed on Urs' homepage, and that's 
it, period--and since he took the trouble to ask for permission, they may very 
well check to make sure he complies with that. Sure, they might not think it's 
worth the bother to bring legal action, but I personally wouldn't want to take 
the risk, however miniscule it may be.

DR

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