Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[Carl Sorensen]

On 11/7/16 5:03 AM, "mclaren"  wrote:
>
>The Lilypond documentation is poorly organized and extremely incomplete.
>For
>exmaple, I was only only able to find out about tie direction control by
>glancing at an unrelated list of tweaks. Tie direction control \tieUp and
>\tieDown should be featured prominently in the Lilypond Learning Manual in
>the section on ties.

Any patches you create will be thoughtfully considered.

Thank you,

Carl Sorensen


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Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[Simon Albrecht]

On 07.11.2016 12:03, mclaren wrote:

This offers an example of the inadequacy of the Lilypond documentation. This
kind of limitation in Lilypond's output really should be featured
prominently somewhere in the basic info about entering note-values in the
Lilypond Learning Guide. One sentence would do: "WARNING: Lilypond has no
glyphs to represent note- or rest-values shorters than 1/128 note, but if
they are entered they will alter the score and appear as beamed values."  Or
something like that.

The Lilypond documentation is poorly organized and extremely incomplete.


First: I don’t quite understand your going back and forth between ‘I’m 
glad to have found this tool that can do things no other software can 
do’ and ‘this is total crap and I hate the people who had to make it so 
complicated’. Please try and make up your mind.


Second: LilyPond is an open source project, run by volunteers, many of 
them extremely skilful people who put a whole lot of time and great 
ideas into this. It’s not like you paid $600 for a piece of software and 
expect that it holds its promises, you are facing a community of 
enthusiasts who have no liability whatsoever to provide you any service.
Also, you can’t just show up on the user list and start ranting about 
how bad the program and the documentation are, before even having 
understood its basics or taken some time to get acquainted. If you have 
a good suggestion on how to improve the docs, it will be welcome at 
least for discussion, but we have policies for that, and there are 
reasons why the docs are written like they are. It’s unlikely that your 
opinion will be valued if we get the impression that you aren’t into the 
proceedings of our community and don’t really know what you’re talking 
about.


Best, Simon

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Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[David Kastrup]

mclaren  writes:

> Thanks, it's useful to know that Lilypond doesn't have printable
> objects to represent time values shorter than 1/128 note, but that
> Lilypond nevertheless does insert them into scores and deal with them.
>
> This offers an example of the inadequacy of the Lilypond
> documentation. This kind of limitation in Lilypond's output really
> should be featured prominently somewhere in the basic info about
> entering note-values in the Lilypond Learning Guide. One sentence
> would do: "WARNING: Lilypond has no glyphs to represent note- or
> rest-values shorters than 1/128 note, but if they are entered they
> will alter the score and appear as beamed values."  Or something like
> that.
>
> The Lilypond documentation is poorly organized and extremely
> incomplete. For exmaple, I was only only able to find out about tie
> direction control by glancing at an unrelated list of tweaks. Tie
> direction control \tieUp and \tieDown should be featured prominently
> in the Lilypond Learning Manual in the section on ties.

The index tends to be helpful.

Like all of LilyPond, the documentation is put together and maintained
by volunteers.  Like all of LilyPond, the documentation has been
developed over the course of decades and reorganized several times, by a
host of writers and with sometimes mixed quality.  The overall
organization and consistency and focus is not the same than if it were
written from scratch for the current version by a single well-versed
writer.

This is not cast in stone, however, and everyone is welcome to rework
the material presented by the manuals.

With regard to tie direction controls, they rarely make musical sense on
their own rather than in the context of whole voices which _also_ switch
the tie direction.  When individual ties need to be flipped because of
visual rather than musical reasons, that indeed is the realm of optical
tweaks.  The Learning Manual does not really cover details that make
mostly sense in course of building up larger chunks of functionality
rather than expressing musical content.  You can find stuff like that in
the reference manual, and the reference manual is not intended to be
read in sequence.  However, it is intended to make things easy to find,
and if you have reasonable suggestions or even patches that improve its
capacity of doing so, you'll certainly find people willing to pick up
your suggestions or help you develop them to a stage where they are easy
to apply to LilyPond's documentation.

Even for large-scale contributors, however, it is sort-of important to
try maintaining reasonable relations and mutual respect with other
contributors.  The reason for that is that while a single person may
tackle more substantial reorganizations, maintaining a large bulk or
corpus of code or documentation like that of LilyPond is beyond the
capacity of a single person, so turning dozens of small-time
contributors off while gaining a single more prominent contributor might
be a bad deal.

So while you are apparently willing to invest a lot of energy into
improving the state and documentation of LilyPond, you still need to
reconsider your attitude if your contribution is supposed to end up a
net win to the project.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno lun 7 nov 2016 alle 12:03, mclaren  
ha scritto:
The Lilypond documentation is poorly organized and extremely 
incomplete. For
exmaple, I was only only able to find out about tie direction control 
by
glancing at an unrelated list of tweaks. Tie direction control \tieUp 
and
\tieDown should be featured prominently in the Lilypond Learning 
Manual in

the section on ties.


Before jumping to that wrong conclusion I suggest that you check if 
you've done your work.
I guess that you've not understood how manuals are organized and how to 
search in them, because it took me 10 seconds to find what you were 
looking for in this thread.


My suggestions:

1. The most complete manual is the Notation Reference, the place where 
you should expect to find all the information needed to produce the 
notation. The Learning Manual is only a gentle introduction to 
LilyPond; it's not supposed to contain all the information.


2. Start your search from the manual index:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/lilypond-index.html

If you search R and "rests" you'll get here:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/writing-rests.html#rests

Scroll down the end of the chapter and you find:

%%

Known issues and warnings

There is no fundamental limit to rest durations (both in terms of 
longest and shortest), but the number of glyphs is limited: there are 
rests from 128th to maxima (8× whole).


%%

Pretty easy.
Same for \tieUp and \tieDown.

I've read lots of manuals and documentation and I've not found anything 
better than LilyPond's documentation. Other people in this list 
expressed the same opinion in the past.


Cheers
Federico (LilyPond user since 8 years)




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Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[Urs Liska]

Am 07.11.2016 um 12:03 schrieb mclaren:
> The Lilypond documentation is poorly organized and extremely incomplete. For
> exmaple, I was only only able to find out about tie direction control by
> glancing at an unrelated list of tweaks. Tie direction control \tieUp and
> \tieDown should be featured prominently in the Lilypond Learning Manual in
> the section on ties. 
If you go to the manual, open the index, look up "Ties" and then read
through the page you'll find the required information. I can't find that
so surprising. It rather suggests that *your* handling of resources is
"poorly organized and extremely incomplete".

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Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[Bernhard Kleine]

Am 07.11.2016 um 12:03 schrieb mclaren:
> The Lilypond documentation is poorly organized and extremely incomplete. For
> exmaple, I was only only able to find out about tie direction control by
> glancing at an unrelated list of tweaks. Tie direction control \tieUp and
> \tieDown should be featured prominently in the Lilypond Learning Manual in
> the section on ties. 
>
To this I cannot agree. I concede that I cannot find the information I
need. But once I have a pointer everything is there. I did not see it,
still it is at the correct place. Therefore, I can only say that is
difficult to find given that I do things in German and do not the
English nomenclature.

Regards
Bernhard

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Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[mclaren]

Thanks, it's useful to know that Lilypond doesn't have printable objects to
represent time values shorter than 1/128 note, but that Lilypond
nevertheless does insert them into scores and deal with them.

This offers an example of the inadequacy of the Lilypond documentation. This
kind of limitation in Lilypond's output really should be featured
prominently somewhere in the basic info about entering note-values in the
Lilypond Learning Guide. One sentence would do: "WARNING: Lilypond has no
glyphs to represent note- or rest-values shorters than 1/128 note, but if
they are entered they will alter the score and appear as beamed values."  Or
something like that. 

The Lilypond documentation is poorly organized and extremely incomplete. For
exmaple, I was only only able to find out about tie direction control by
glancing at an unrelated list of tweaks. Tie direction control \tieUp and
\tieDown should be featured prominently in the Lilypond Learning Manual in
the section on ties. 



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Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[Simon Albrecht]

On 07.11.2016 11:29, Urs Liska wrote:

Experience shows that
Lilypond won't print a rest shorter than 1/128 note, so maybe if I enter a
short enough silent rest Lilypond won't insert it at all in the score.

LilyPond doesn't know about notes or rests shorter than 1/128. This is
an arbitrary limitation into which I've also run occasionally.


That’s not true. LilyPond doesn’t have any _glyphs_ to represent notes 
or rests shorter than 1/128, but beamed notes work, and I don’t see why 
silent rests shouldn’t work as well. See
 
and

 :-)

Best, Simon

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Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[Urs Liska]

Am 07.11.2016 um 11:23 schrieb mclaren:
> Thanks!  That answer a lot of questions. So presumably the S2 is means
> "silent half note rest."
> I'm guessing, then, that S1024 or S4096 will generate silent 1/1024 note
> rest and silent 1/4096 note rests, respectively.
>
> Ideally, what I want is a silent rest of zero length. Experience shows that
> Lilypond won't print a rest shorter than 1/128 note, so maybe if I enter a
> short enough silent rest Lilypond won't insert it at all in the score.

LilyPond doesn't know about notes or rests shorter than 1/128. This is
an arbitrary limitation into which I've also run occasionally.

>
> That's what I'm looking for, a silent rest of zero duration that simply
> makes the page break and adds nothing to the score. I'll fiddle around with
> Lilypond some more and see what I can come up with. In any case, this
> valuable clue points me in the right direction.

You can get a silent rest ("skip") of zero length with e.g. s4*0 (or any
other duration times zero) (note the lowercase "s"), but I'm not sure
you need this. In order to create allow a break in the measure you need
only \bar "". But maybe I'm missing something from this stripped down reply.

HTH
Urs

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Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[mclaren]

Thanks!  That answer a lot of questions. So presumably the S2 is means
"silent half note rest."
I'm guessing, then, that S1024 or S4096 will generate silent 1/1024 note
rest and silent 1/4096 note rests, respectively.

Ideally, what I want is a silent rest of zero length. Experience shows that
Lilypond won't print a rest shorter than 1/128 note, so maybe if I enter a
short enough silent rest Lilypond won't insert it at all in the score.

That's what I'm looking for, a silent rest of zero duration that simply
makes the page break and adds nothing to the score. I'll fiddle around with
Lilypond some more and see what I can come up with. In any case, this
valuable clue points me in the right direction.



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Re: Mystery empty staves appear on score

[Noeck]

Hi mclaren,

I would not know how to play these nested tuplets and I would have
difficulties with that piece. But that's not the question.

The empty staves are there, because you ask for them with your \breaks
variable. Wherever you put \breaks into the music (at least 3 times in
your score), you get a dotted half note (2.) of invisible rests. Then a
line break and then again a halfnote of empty staff lines (invisible
rests) and another line break, i.e. in total one empty staff line.

HTH,
Joram

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