Re: Vocal scores with extra staves

[David Wright]

On Tue 28 Feb 2017 at 18:32:22 (+1100), Andrew Bromage wrote:
> On 28/2/17 3:23 pm, David Wright wrote:
> >Sorry. I was labouring under the misapprehension that you _wanted_
> >staves starting mid-page (as in your OP, but placed correctly between
> >the upper voices and the piano), and that Klaus was advocating
> >frenching the score instead.
> Not really.

Yes. Really. (That's a statement of fact about my mind.)

> What I want is to bring a staff into existence for a small
> amount of time, and that case is solved, but I was also interested
> in the general case.

Well, I don't have a clue whether that staff has to be brought into
existence anywhere, or just at the beginning of a line; only that you
want the number of staves to change from time to time. But I'm glad
whatever you wanted is solved, whichever method you adopted.
(I thought the big guns here might have commented on your syntax
extension and where that syllable actually goes. I only brought a
pea-shooter to bear on it.)

> The general case is that you have a complex score with many varying
> combinations of parts in unison on occasions, and you need to
> reduce it down to a size such that the singers and the rehearsal
> pianist have a fighting chance without turning a page every two seconds.
> 
> Thankfully not something I have to do...

Oh, I thought that's what you _did_ have to scale it up to, and
that a G Finale was an example of your type of score.

I can see that reducing the number of pages helps, but there's also
consideration for the people who have to perform from this type of
score (usually it's singers). How frequently are they going to have
to switch between staves (and clefs)?

Just as an example, the opening page of the Finale could have been
set on two staves, but it's not worth the hassle as it's going to
have to break into four at the third system anyway, because of the
rhythmic and lyric differences. It's compromise all along.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Vocal scores with extra staves

[Andrew Bromage]

On 28/2/17 3:23 pm, David Wright wrote:

Sorry. I was labouring under the misapprehension that you _wanted_
staves starting mid-page (as in your OP, but placed correctly between
the upper voices and the piano), and that Klaus was advocating
frenching the score instead.

Not really. What I want is to bring a staff into existence for a small
amount of time, and that case is solved, but I was also interested
in the general case.

The general case is that you have a complex score with many varying
combinations of parts in unison on occasions, and you need to
reduce it down to a size such that the singers and the rehearsal
pianist have a fighting chance without turning a page every two seconds.

Thankfully not something I have to do...

Andrew Bromage

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Re: Vocal scores with extra staves

[David Wright]

On Tue 28 Feb 2017 at 13:41:43 (+1100), Andrew Bromage wrote:
> On 28/2/17 1:21 pm, David Wright wrote:
> >Well I'm looking at the finale of Pinafore¹ (I picked p99/108 at random
> >and hit the spot!) and I don't see staves starting and stopping mid-page.
> No, what I mean is the solution of using different staves and just
> eliminating
> ones that have nothing.

Sorry. I was labouring under the misapprehension that you _wanted_
staves starting mid-page (as in your OP, but placed correctly between
the upper voices and the piano), and that Klaus was advocating
frenching the score instead. Now I'm confused. In any case:

A "start/stop" solution might start a new staff at the penultimate
bar of p101 with two semiquavers at the end, labelled
"Chorus of Men (basses)".

A "compromise" solution might start a new page three bars earlier
than p102 currently does, so Cap C would use the tenor line
briefly, just as Mrs Cripps does later.

A "work to do" solution might involve adding 4. and the
word "thee" to p102/bar1/staff2 and splitting guidelines at the
very end of p101.

> I see an example of almost precisely my situation at the top of page 102.

…which is why I quoted it.

> On page 101, you have one staff alternating between male chorus and a
> soloist. At the start of page 102 the tenors and basses are divided onto
> separate staves.
> 
> In the first bar on page 102, the bass voices are in the top staff at the
> start of the bar and the bottom staff at the end of the bar.

…which corresponds to a frenching solution, but without bothering
about the "work to do".

But I'm not sure which of these alternative(s) you might be happy with.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Vocal scores with extra staves

[Andrew Bromage]

On 28/2/17 1:21 pm, David Wright wrote:

Well I'm looking at the finale of Pinafore¹ (I picked p99/108 at random
and hit the spot!) and I don't see staves starting and stopping mid-page.
No, what I mean is the solution of using different staves and just 
eliminating

ones that have nothing.

I see an example of almost precisely my situation at the top of page 102.

On page 101, you have one staff alternating between male chorus and a
soloist. At the start of page 102 the tenors and basses are divided onto
separate staves.

In the first bar on page 102, the bass voices are in the top staff at the
start of the bar and the bottom staff at the end of the bar.

¹IMSLP17191-Sullivan-HMSPinaforeVS.mtz.pdf

Andrew Bromage

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Re: Vocal scores with extra staves

[David Wright]

On Tue 28 Feb 2017 at 10:18:33 (+1100), Andrew Bromage wrote:
> On 27/2/17 10:27 pm, Klaus Blum wrote:
> >It will be easier to align the lyrics to a voice that exists from the very
> >beginning. In your example, I've put the unison part into the same voice as
> >the soprano part.

> That will work for this case, thanks. I'm not sure how well this would scale
> to, say, a Gilbert and Sullivan act finale.

Well I'm looking at the finale of Pinafore¹ (I picked p99/108 at random
and hit the spot!) and I don't see staves starting and stopping mid-page.
But if you want that, I think I'd try using stop/start staff.

> I'm curious what is actually happening. Is the behaviour that I was seeing
> a bug, or is it technically correct but counter-intuitive?

I'm dubious about your construction here:

  \new Lyrics = A
  \context Lyrics = A { \lyricsto B { \lyrB } \lyricsto C { \lyrC } }

I can't find anything documented that looks like that. But someone
familiar with LP code would have to tell you why a syllable gets
"swallowed" by this.

> >In such cases, it's better to explicitely start a new staff instead of
> >having LilyPond do that automatically. Now you can control positions with
> >alignAboveContext or alignBelowContext.
> Thanks for this and also to the kind person who told me this off-list.
> >As you can see, this can get pretty complicated.
> Believe me, it's not as complicated as the non-cut-down example.
> >  With your "real" verses
> >being longer than just two bars, maybe it's easier to start all staves from
> >the beginning and just working with \RemoveEmptyStaves.
> I considered this option. The trouble is, if the place where the unison ends
> and the divisi begins turns out not to be the best place to break a
> line, this
> would be incorrect, because it would appear as if the male chorus should
> not sing during the unison part. Spaces rather than rests would be even
> more confusing.

Then you either have compromises to make or work to do.

Compromises: In a large work, there's usually enough stretch to get
your linebreaks where you want them. Is this for publication, or a
performance score where you can break more rules?

Work: After inserting \RemoveEmptyStaves, you may get part-lines
containing rests in, for example, T/B staves. So you can now
freeze the pagebreaks and add the notes back in where they're
missing, so that the unison breaks out into parts at the start of
a line, and vice versa, eg pp101-102.

¹IMSLP17191-Sullivan-HMSPinaforeVS.mtz.pdf

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Vocal scores with extra staves

[Br. Samuel Springuel]

Also, there appear to be unmatched << .  Is closing >> implied, or is
this just a short-cut  example?


The `>>` are there, but your email reader may interpreting them as a
quotation level (though there is no text in the quotation).  Try copying 
the whole email into a plain text editor and then deleting the top part 
and footer that isn't in the code block.  Klaus's email conveniently has 
the `%--` lines to mark the beginning and end of the code block.


Incidentally, this is may be why you're missing a `}` as well; the 
"quotations" are separating things so that you're not copying the whole 
code block.  Your reply, for instance, in quoting Klaus's email doesn't 
contain the whole code block.

--
✝
Br. Samuel, OSB
St. Anselm’s Abbey
Washington, DC
(R. Padraic Springuel)

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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Re: Vocal scores with extra staves

[Joseph Austin]

> On Feb 27, 2017, at 7:17 AM, lilypond-user-requ...@gnu.org wrote:
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 04:27:19 -0700 (MST)
> From: Klaus Blum <benbigno...@gmx.de <mailto:benbigno...@gmx.de>>
> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org <mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: Vocal scores with extra staves
> Message-ID: <1488194839285-200529.p...@n5.nabble.com 
> <mailto:1488194839285-200529.p...@n5.nabble.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asci
> 
> Andrew Bromage-2 wrote
>> the new staff isn't where I expect it to be; I'd like it to 
>> be part of the ChoirStaff.
> 
> In such cases, it's better to explicitely start a new staff instead of
> having LilyPond do that automatically. Now you can control positions with
> alignAboveContext or alignBelowContext. 
> 
> % ---
> \version "2.18.2"
> 
> timeline = {
>  \time 4/4
>  { s1*2 } \bar "||"
>  { s1*2 } \bar "|."
> }
> 
> choirVerseI = { \relative c'' { c4 c c c c c c c } }
> sopranoVerseII = { \relative c'' { c4 c c c c c c c } }
> altoVerseII = { \relative e' { e4 e e e e e e e } }
> tenorVerseII = { \relative g { g4 g g g g g g g } }
> bassVerseII = { \relative c { c4 c c c c c c c } }
> pianoRH = { \relative c' { 1} }
> pianoLH = { \relative c { 1} }
> lyricsVerseI = \lyricmode { la la la la la la la la }
> lyricsVerseII = \lyricmode { lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu }
> 
> \book {
>  <<
>\new ChoirStaff {
>  \new Staff {
><<
>  \timeline
>  \clef treble \key c \major
>  \new Voice = "sopranoChorus" {
>\choirVerseI
><<
>  \context Voice = "sopranoChorus" { \voiceOne \sopranoVerseII }
>  \new Voice = "altoChorus" { \voiceTwo \altoVerseII }
> 
>  \new Staff \with {alignBelowContext = #"chorusLyrics"} {
>\clef bass \key c \major
><<
>  \new Voice = "tenorChorus" { \voiceOne \tenorVerseII }
>  \new Voice = "bassChorus" { \voiceTwo \bassVerseII }
>>> 
>  }
>>> 
>  }
>>> 
>  }
>}
> 
>\new Lyrics = "chorusLyrics"
> 
>\context Lyrics = "chorusLyrics" {
>  \lyricsto "sopranoChorus" { \lyricsVerseI \lyricsVerseII }
>}
> 
>\new PianoStaff <<
>  \new Staff {
>\clef treble \key c \major <<
>  \timeline \new Voice
>  { \pianoRH }
>>> 
>  }
>  \new Staff {
>\clef bass \key c \major <<
>  \timeline \new Voice {
>\pianoLH
>  }
>>> 
>  }
>>> 
>>> 
> }

I studied this example because I've been trying to learn to set choral music 
myself.
When I run this example, I get: error: syntax error, unexpected '}'"on 
lines 34, 57, 64.
Am I missing something?
Also, there appear to be unmatched << .  Is closing >> implied, or is this just 
a short-cut  example?

Joe Austin


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Re: Vocal scores with extra staves

[Andrew Bromage]

G'day.

On 27/2/17 10:27 pm, Klaus Blum wrote:

welcome to the List!  :-)

Thanks! It's actually a rejoin after many years.

It will be easier to align the lyrics to a voice that exists from the very
beginning. In your example, I've put the unison part into the same voice as
the soprano part.

That will work for this case, thanks. I'm not sure how well this would scale
to, say, a Gilbert and Sullivan act finale.

I'm curious what is actually happening. Is the behaviour that I was seeing
a bug, or is it technically correct but counter-intuitive?

In such cases, it's better to explicitely start a new staff instead of
having LilyPond do that automatically. Now you can control positions with
alignAboveContext or alignBelowContext.

Thanks for this and also to the kind person who told me this off-list.

As you can see, this can get pretty complicated.

Believe me, it's not as complicated as the non-cut-down example.

  With your "real" verses
being longer than just two bars, maybe it's easier to start all staves from
the beginning and just working with \RemoveEmptyStaves.

I considered this option. The trouble is, if the place where the unison ends
and the divisi begins turns out not to be the best place to break a 
line, this

would be incorrect, because it would appear as if the male chorus should
not sing during the unison part. Spaces rather than rests would be even
more confusing.

Thanks once again.

Andrew Bromage

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Re: Vocal scores with extra staves

[Klaus Blum]

Hi Andrew, 

welcome to the List!  :-)


Andrew Bromage-2 wrote
> the lyrics for verse 2 don't start on the 
> correct beat.

It will be easier to align the lyrics to a voice that exists from the very
beginning. In your example, I've put the unison part into the same voice as
the soprano part.


Andrew Bromage-2 wrote
> the new staff isn't where I expect it to be; I'd like it to 
> be part of the ChoirStaff.

In such cases, it's better to explicitely start a new staff instead of
having LilyPond do that automatically. Now you can control positions with
alignAboveContext or alignBelowContext. 

% ---
\version "2.18.2"

timeline = {
  \time 4/4
  { s1*2 } \bar "||"
  { s1*2 } \bar "|."
}

choirVerseI = { \relative c'' { c4 c c c c c c c } }
sopranoVerseII = { \relative c'' { c4 c c c c c c c } }
altoVerseII = { \relative e' { e4 e e e e e e e } }
tenorVerseII = { \relative g { g4 g g g g g g g } }
bassVerseII = { \relative c { c4 c c c c c c c } }
pianoRH = { \relative c' { 1} }
pianoLH = { \relative c { 1} }
lyricsVerseI = \lyricmode { la la la la la la la la }
lyricsVerseII = \lyricmode { lu lu lu lu lu lu lu lu }

\book {
  <<
\new ChoirStaff {
  \new Staff {
<<
  \timeline
  \clef treble \key c \major
  \new Voice = "sopranoChorus" {
\choirVerseI
<<
  \context Voice = "sopranoChorus" { \voiceOne \sopranoVerseII }
  \new Voice = "altoChorus" { \voiceTwo \altoVerseII }

  \new Staff \with {alignBelowContext = #"chorusLyrics"} {
\clef bass \key c \major
<<
  \new Voice = "tenorChorus" { \voiceOne \tenorVerseII }
  \new Voice = "bassChorus" { \voiceTwo \bassVerseII }
>>
  }
>>
  }
>>
  }
}

\new Lyrics = "chorusLyrics"

\context Lyrics = "chorusLyrics" {
  \lyricsto "sopranoChorus" { \lyricsVerseI \lyricsVerseII }
}

\new PianoStaff <<
  \new Staff {
\clef treble \key c \major <<
  \timeline \new Voice
  { \pianoRH }
>>
  }
  \new Staff {
\clef bass \key c \major <<
  \timeline \new Voice {
\pianoLH
  }
>>
  }
>>
  >>
}
% ---

As you can see, this can get pretty complicated. With your "real" verses
being longer than just two bars, maybe it's easier to start all staves from
the beginning and just working with \RemoveEmptyStaves.

Cheers, 
Klaus



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