Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring

[Eyolf Østrem]

On 27.11.2007 (20:10), Trevor Bača wrote:
 
> 
> Oh, Eyolf, what a gem. Thanks so much for the beautiful reference.

My pleasure. Honestly -- if you knew how rarely it happens that people ask
for these things... and then even enjoy the answer..! :)

eyolf
-- 
Time does not count itself.  You have only to look at a circle and this is 
apparent.

  -- Leto II (The Tyrant)


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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Hans Aberg]

On 27 Nov 2007, at 22:05, Adam James Wilson wrote:


Yes, these time sigtanatures are ridiculous -- but they are needed to
produce the visual I'm after.  I'm notating an electronic part; I have
four performers playing at 4 different tempi, and the electronic part
plays groups of four artiuclations, each quantized to a beat in a
different tempo -- hence the strange timesigs on the staff containing
this part.

But I still don't understand Valentin -- you're telling me you can't
tap out rhythms in 2667/25276 time? :)


The MIDI timing seems to be rather poor, too: according to
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_timecode
it is at best 1/30 second, but could be just 1/24 (as it uses the  
standard film frame rates). Is this right?


Suppose the tempo 1/4 = 120, so the 1/4 note takes 0.5 seconds; then  
the 1/2 note takes one second, and the 1/30 second is a 2*30 or about  
a 64th note. Perhaps this is why MIDI code sounds so bad :-) - there  
isn't enough time resolution for doing subtle time bendings.


  Hans Åberg




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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring

[Libero Mureddu]

On Nov 27, 2007 8:44 PM, Trevor Bača <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Nov 27, 2007 1:02 PM, Kieren MacMillan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Libero,
> >
> > > wikipedia article call those time sigs as "irrational" meters:
> >
> > It's unfortunate (IMO) that such a (mathematical) misnomer has become
> > accepted...
>
>
> Agreed.
>
> I think Ferneyhough uses the term only with reluctance; Xenakis refused
> ...
>

Ok, but it is a metaphor, not a mathematical explanation and many music
definitions are metaphoric... that's why Xenakis refused, he was less on the
rethorical side -:) (I really respect his music and life... just a little
irony).
"irrationals" are the bar lenght whose beats are based on irregular groups
(and incomplete... 5/5=1). To me the analogy is quite understandable, even
if not correct.

>
>
> I wish I knew enough about Medieval music (or Medieval music theory
> anyway) to know if the Medieval invetors of "duplum" and "triplum" and
> "perfectus" and "imperfectus" and the like ever touched on the topic ...
> they'd make a good source to steal from ...


Anyway, complex ars subtilior music was written without  the notion of
measure, and thus even for the most "irrationals" passages of the time,
there was not this problem (the problem to write a special time signature, I
mean,  to fit all voices in a measure).


>
> (A good example is "prolation" ... which I *think* Ferneyhough borrows
> from "prolatio" ... though not sure ... and which makes a great cover term
> for tuplets and all forms of duration "scaling" in general.)
>


Well, I dont have here a copy of Henry Cowell's book,  maybe there is a
better definition there, when he  speaks about complex rhythmical
subdivisions.
Could someone check it?
A question: in english language, do you say "Irrational rhythm"?
I'm not asking if this is correct or not, just if it is the common practice.
In italy we call them "Irregular groups"! Xenakis would have correctly
argued that in a quintuplet there's nothing irregular, I mean, that the
subdivision is in 5 equal parts...
Ciao

Libero

>
>
>
>
> --
> Trevor Bača
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]




-- 
Libero Mureddu
Vanha Viertotie, 21 as 417
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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Hans Aberg]

On 27 Nov 2007, at 22:05, Adam James Wilson wrote:


But I still don't understand Valentin -- you're telling me you can't
tap out rhythms in 2667/25276 time? :)


I think that if the 1/4 has a reasonable tempo, say 1/4 = 120, then  
the shortest discernible time values will be around 1/128, and they  
will then be perceived as some slight time bends. At this speed,  
trills and the like, are typically executed on the 1/32 note.


  Hans Åberg




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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring

[Deacon Geoffrey Horton]

> > Charming system, but not very practical...
>
> Oh, Eyolf, what a gem. Thanks so much for the beautiful reference.
>
> And, yes: not very practical, but how fascinating ...

Practicality is overrated.


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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring

[Trevor Bača]

On Nov 27, 2007 2:48 PM, Eyolf Østrem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 27.11.2007 (13:44), Trevor Bača wrote:
> > I wish I knew enough about Medieval music (or Medieval music theory
> anyway)
> > to know if the Medieval invetors of "duplum" and "triplum" and
> "perfectus"
> > and "imperfectus" and the like ever touched on the topic ... they'd make
> a
> > good source to steal from ...
>
> Oh, they did, they did... Not the medieval guys, but their
> early-renaissance followers, such as Franchino Gaffurio, who, as far as I
> remember, is the one who does the most thorough presentation of all the
> different alternatives:
>
> http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tml/15th/GAFPM4_TEXT.html
>
> The principle is an extension of the nomenclature of sesquialtera (3:2)
> and
> sesquitertia (4:3) etc., and particularly the names with -partiens and
> -particularis. As the complexities grow, so do the names: 30:7 is called
> Quadruplasuperbipartiensseptimas...
>
> sesqui-:  numerator one higher than denominator
> subsesqui-: denom. one higher than num.
> superpartiens: num. contains den. plus a specified part of itself, e.g.
>supertripartiensquinta = 8:5, supersexcupartiensseptima=13:7, etc.
> subsuperpartiens: same as the former, only upside down:
>supersexcupartiensseptima=7:13
> etc.
>
> Charming system, but not very practical...


Oh, Eyolf, what a gem. Thanks so much for the beautiful reference.

And, yes: not very practical, but how fascinating ...

:-)



-- 
Trevor Bača
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Time signatures contd. (was Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring )

[Hans Aberg]

On 27 Nov 2007, at 22:05, Vivian Barty-Taylor wrote:

On the subject of time signatures with a denominator-base other  
than two, Henry Cowell in his book "New Musical Resources" proposes  
a notation system with different shaped note-heads to represent  
different base-lengths. This should be quite easy to implement in  
Lilypond. Might see if I can do that just for the fun...


I have an idea of making outline flags, and then in effect write out  
binary numbers (as the system already is binary). Easy to remember,  
and probably not difficult to implement.


The problem is really quadruplets: in for example the proportion 4:3,  
there is no need for such extensions. But writing a series of dotted  
notes instead of a quadruplet communicates a different musical idea.


So n-uplets communicates the idea of a general division into n parts.

Here is a fun example:
{
  \time 2/8
  \times 2/3 { e16 f16 } g8 \times 2/3 { a16 } |
}
(There seems to be a bug in the output.)

  Hans Åberg




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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Adam James Wilson]

It is nice to see everyone is so interested in my "strange" fractions
-- it is great that these are possible in lilypond.

However, I'm still not sure what is breaking my code.

Possibilities are:

1. I'm making some syntactical mistake.
2. I made a math error someplace.
3. There's a real bug.

Unfortunately, the code for the piece is rather long and messy, and I
don't know if I can pare it down and produce a similar error.

I hestitate to ask someone to take a look at my work and double check
it, but if there is a brave soul out there with some free time and a
penchant for multiplying fractions, I'd be happy to send you a zip of
the files.

Best,
Adam


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Time signatures contd. (was Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring )

[Vivian Barty-Taylor]

On the subject of time signatures with a denominator-base other than  
two, Henry Cowell in his book "New Musical Resources" proposes a  
notation system with different shaped note-heads to represent  
different base-lengths. This should be quite easy to implement in  
Lilypond. Might see if I can do that just for the fun...



On Nov 27, 2007, at 9:54 PM, Eyolf Østrem wrote:


On 27.11.2007 (21:48), Eyolf Oestrem wrote:

subsuperpartiens: same as the former, only upside down:
supersexcupartiensseptima=7:13


That should of course have been SUBsupersexcupartiensseptima... how  
stupid of

me...

Eyolf

--
No discipline is ever requisite to force attendance upon lectures  
which are

really worth the attending.
-- Adam Smith, "The Wealth of Nations"


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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Adam James Wilson]

Yes, these time sigtanatures are ridiculous -- but they are needed to
produce the visual I'm after.  I'm notating an electronic part; I have
four performers playing at 4 different tempi, and the electronic part
plays groups of four artiuclations, each quantized to a beat in a
different tempo -- hence the strange timesigs on the staff containing
this part.

But I still don't understand Valentin -- you're telling me you can't
tap out rhythms in 2667/25276 time? :)

Best,
Adam


On 11/27/07, Valentin Villenave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2007/11/26, Adam James Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm using some complicated time signatures, like 3599/11748 followed
> > by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. (I have a good reason for this).
>
> Just out of curiosity... How good can any reason be?
>
> :-)
>
> Valentin
>


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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring

[Eyolf Østrem]

On 27.11.2007 (21:48), Eyolf Oestrem wrote:
> subsuperpartiens: same as the former, only upside down:
> supersexcupartiensseptima=7:13

That should of course have been SUBsupersexcupartiensseptima... how stupid of
me...

Eyolf

-- 
No discipline is ever requisite to force attendance upon lectures which are
really worth the attending.
-- Adam Smith, "The Wealth of Nations"


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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring

[Eyolf Østrem]

On 27.11.2007 (13:44), Trevor Bača wrote:
> I wish I knew enough about Medieval music (or Medieval music theory anyway)
> to know if the Medieval invetors of "duplum" and "triplum" and "perfectus"
> and "imperfectus" and the like ever touched on the topic ... they'd make a
> good source to steal from ...

Oh, they did, they did... Not the medieval guys, but their
early-renaissance followers, such as Franchino Gaffurio, who, as far as I
remember, is the one who does the most thorough presentation of all the
different alternatives:

http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/tml/15th/GAFPM4_TEXT.html

The principle is an extension of the nomenclature of sesquialtera (3:2) and
sesquitertia (4:3) etc., and particularly the names with -partiens and
-particularis. As the complexities grow, so do the names: 30:7 is called
Quadruplasuperbipartiensseptimas... 

sesqui-:  numerator one higher than denominator
subsesqui-: denom. one higher than num.
superpartiens: num. contains den. plus a specified part of itself, e.g.
supertripartiensquinta = 8:5, supersexcupartiensseptima=13:7, etc.
subsuperpartiens: same as the former, only upside down:
supersexcupartiensseptima=7:13
etc. 

Charming system, but not very practical...
 
However ...

> (A good example is "prolation" ... which I *think* Ferneyhough borrows from
> "prolatio" ... though not sure ... and which makes a great cover term for
> tuplets and all forms of duration "scaling" in general.)

True -- it is basically the same word as "relation", which makes it a good
generic term which still -- while not in general use -- retains some
specificity. I'd go for "prolations" for all those odd meters.

(No, really, I'd go for writing simple tunes in 4/4 :)

Eyolf

-- 
_-^--^=-_
   _.-^^  -~_
_--  --_
   <>)
   | |
\._   _./
   ```--. . , ; .--'''
 | |   |
  .-=||  | |=-.
  `-=#$%&%$#=-'
 | ;  :|
_.,-#%&[EMAIL PROTECTED]&#~,._


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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Hans Aberg]

On 27 Nov 2007, at 19:15, Damian Legassick wrote:

i can't immediately see how you'd play 3599/11748 but i'd be  
surprised if the math that got you there was so hard.


The question is where the metric accents are. There are three  
different possibilities already for 9 = 4+2+3. I think the beaming  
used on this one used by Bartok might be wrong, if it is the common  
Romanian meter he implies.


recently i've taken to defining such time signatures by what  
they're missing. eg 9/8 - 1/20 rather than 43/40. either way is  
really an aide-memoir and can't be 'read' as such, but in the  
example i'm thinking of 9/8 -1/20 is less stressful.


The Bulgarian Eleno Mome can be written in say 13 = 4+4+2+3, order to  
indicate a time bending on the last beat. In reality, though, one may  
play something like 4+4+2+3.5. I think it is perhaps better to write  
it in 7 = 2+2+1+2, and indicate the time bending with other means  
than a complicated time signature. Sometimes it can be difficult to  
assign a meter notation at all.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_dances
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leventikos

  Hans Aberg




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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Hans Aberg]

On 27 Nov 2007, at 19:06, Trevor Bača wrote:


> If anybody has a good name for these meters, I would love to steal.

n-ary meters? [...he offered, only half-jokingly...]

Which would conflict with the senses of "binary" and "ternary"  
meters referring to the (sub)divisions of the *numerators* of  
meters, right? (6/8 and 9/8 are "ternary" in traditional score,  
2/4, 4/4 are "binary" ...)


There are in fact two traditions here: In the Germanic one (also used  
in Sweden), only time signature where the upper number is 2 (resp. 3)  
are called binary (resp. ternary). The English (or Latin) does  
something else like what you say.


And it is formally incorrect to call the upper number a "numerator",  
as a time signature written as

  m
  n
is defined as the note of duration 1/n taken m times.

  Hans Aberg




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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring

[Trevor Bača]

On Nov 27, 2007 1:02 PM, Kieren MacMillan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi Libero,
>
> > wikipedia article call those time sigs as "irrational" meters:
>
> It's unfortunate (IMO) that such a (mathematical) misnomer has become
> accepted...


Agreed.

I think Ferneyhough uses the term only with reluctance; Xenakis refused ...

I wish I knew enough about Medieval music (or Medieval music theory anyway)
to know if the Medieval invetors of "duplum" and "triplum" and "perfectus"
and "imperfectus" and the like ever touched on the topic ... they'd make a
good source to steal from ...

(A good example is "prolation" ... which I *think* Ferneyhough borrows from
"prolatio" ... though not sure ... and which makes a great cover term for
tuplets and all forms of duration "scaling" in general.)




-- 
Trevor Bača
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Kieren MacMillan]

Trevor:


So what would be "anything-other-than-(power-of)-2-plex"?   ;-)


"non-duplex"?
Better yet, the partially-punny contraction: "nuplex"!  =)

Kieren.


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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Trevor Bača]

On Nov 27, 2007 1:06 PM, Kieren MacMillan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi Trevor,
>
> > Which would conflict with the senses of "binary" and "ternary"
>
> Good point.
>
> > How to draw attention to the *denominator*?
>
> How about "n-rational" or "n-plex" meters?
> So powers of two would be "2-plex" (or "duplex") meters, powers of
> three would be "3-plex" (triplex), etc.


So what would be "anything-other-than-(power-of)-2-plex"?   ;-)



-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Trevor,


Which would conflict with the senses of "binary" and "ternary"


Good point.


How to draw attention to the *denominator*?


How about "n-rational" or "n-plex" meters?
So powers of two would be "2-plex" (or "duplex") meters, powers of  
three would be "3-plex" (triplex), etc.


??

Cheers,
Kieren.


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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Libero,


wikipedia article call those time sigs as "irrational" meters:


It's unfortunate (IMO) that such a (mathematical) misnomer has become  
accepted...


Cheers,
Kieren.


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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring

[Libero Mureddu]

Hi Trevor
wikipedia article call those time sigs as "irrational" meters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature
further investigation showed that Ferneyhough himself calls them
"irrational", so, probably, this is a quite good definition:
http://www.sospeso.com/contents/articles/ferneyhough_p1.html

in my experience this notation is quite useful if you have a broken bar that
it would be impossible to write differently, even if many players told me
that they prefer to see an incomplete bar (even without time signature) with
the tuplet sign (or with nested tuplets) because for them the rhythmical
relation with previous bars is more direct than with a change of time sig.
my 2 cents

regards,

Libero

>
> >
> > > If anybody has a good name for these meters, I would love to steal.
> >
> > n-ary meters? [...he offered, only half-jokingly...]
>
>
>


-- 
Libero Mureddu
Vanha Viertotie, 21 as 417
00350 Helsinki
Finland
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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Damian Legassick]

still ot

i was a founder member of british new music group 'icebreaker' - we  
often perform scores with times signatures like 4/6 or 5/12  (four  
triplet  quarter notes to the bar or 5 eigth-note triplets). earlier,  
boulez in le marteau would write time sigs like 'two and two thirds  
over 4' or even 'two-thirds over 4', which i think is more confusing  
than the equivalent 8/12 or 2/12. you find this newer style of time  
sigs a lot in music by michael gordon and yannis kyriakides (and  
thomas ades too).


name? we never felt the need to give these a particular name - it was  
just a 'five-twelve bar'.


things get messy when you have bars that mix say 'twelves' and  
'sixteens'. a piece of mine had a bar length of 'four eigths plus  
five twelfths plus five sixteenths' - easy enough to play despite the  
rather tongue-in-cheek time sig of 59/48.


i can't immediately see how you'd play 3599/11748 but i'd be  
surprised if the math that got you there was so hard.


recently i've taken to defining such time signatures by what they're  
missing. eg 9/8 - 1/20 rather than 43/40. either way is really an  
aide-memoir and can't be 'read' as such, but in the example i'm  
thinking of 9/8 -1/20 is less stressful.


i'm truly amazed that lilypond handles this stuff

d


On 27 Nov 2007, at 16:33, Trevor Bača wrote:

On Nov 27, 2007 7:31 AM, Ed Ardzinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:


I did some playing last night and was surprised that you can have  
any denominator for a time signature, so my initial idea is  
wrong...not that I really understand what 5/9 time would really  
mean, but obviously LP interprets it.


OT but entertaining:

:-)

5/9 means a measure of 5 "ninth" notes, just as 5/8 means a measure  
of 5 "eighth" notes.


What is a ninth note?

A ninth note is a note that lasts exactly 1/9 of a whole note (just  
as an eighth note is a note that lasts exactly 1/8 of a whole note).


So in the figure ...

  \times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 }

... each of the notes carry the (effective) duration of 1/9 of a  
whole note ... which makes each of the nine notes above "ninth" notes.


Now, an absolutely *remarkable* aspect of Lily's duration-handling  
is that the following constructions are all valid:


  \times 8/9 { c'8 }  % a single "ninth" note
  \times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 }  % a pair of ninth notes
  \times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 } % three of them
  \times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 } % four
  \times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 } % five ninth notes

(Try it; this is one of the things that modern(ist) compers  
discover about Lily that works "out of the box" that absolutely  
amazes us; try doing this with Finale and Sibelius ... and then  
trying doing this with these things crossing *over* barlines ...)


So the meter 5/9 then stands for a measure of exactly five ninth  
notes:


\new Staff {
  \time 5/9
  \times 8/9 { c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ] }
  |
  \time 5/8
  c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ]
}

(Notice that the bar check passes just fine showing that Lily's  
duration math is all caught up at the end of the first measure.)


Opinions differ as to whether the tuplet should draw over such  
figures; there seems, in general, to be a preference against  
drawing the tuplet:


\new Staff {
  \time 5/9
  \once \override TupletNumber #'transparent = ##t
  \times 8/9 { c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ] }
  |
  \time 5/8
  c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ]
}


So there's that

There's a separate question as to the use or desirability or  
whatever of these types of figure. As with most rhythmic  
innovations, folks seem to react violently at first and then get  
used to them. Maybe it helps to see such figures as exact tempo  
changes lasting for a single measure; or, alternately, as "broken"  
tuplets where only the first 5 out of 9 nontuplets appear, for  
example.


(What frustrates me is that there's appearantly no *name* for the  
class of time signatures of the form m/n where n is *not* an  
integer power of 2. In my notes I frequently call these things  
"nonbinary" meters ... which seems somehow unfortunate. If anybody  
has a good name for these meters, I would love to steal.)





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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Trevor Bača]

On Nov 27, 2007 12:00 PM, Kieren MacMillan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi, Trevor:
>
> > What frustrates me is that there's appearantly no *name* for the
> > class of time signatures
> > of the form m/n where n is *not* an integer power of 2.
>
> Fascinating observation!  =)
>
> > If anybody has a good name for these meters, I would love to steal.
>
> n-ary meters? [...he offered, only half-jokingly...]



Which would conflict with the senses of "binary" and "ternary" meters
referring to the (sub)divisions of the *numerators* of meters, right? (6/8
and 9/8 are "ternary" in traditional score, 2/4, 4/4 are "binary" ...)

How to draw attention to the *denominator*?




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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi, Trevor:

What frustrates me is that there's appearantly no *name* for the  
class of time signatures

of the form m/n where n is *not* an integer power of 2.


Fascinating observation!  =)


If anybody has a good name for these meters, I would love to steal.


n-ary meters? [...he offered, only half-jokingly...]

Best,
Kieren.


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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Trevor Bača]

On Nov 27, 2007 7:31 AM, Ed Ardzinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I did some playing last night and was surprised that you can have any
> denominator for a time signature, so my initial idea is wrong...not that I
> really understand what 5/9 time would really mean, but obviously LP
> interprets it.
>

OT but entertaining:

:-)

5/9 means a measure of 5 "ninth" notes, just as 5/8 means a measure of 5
"eighth" notes.

What is a ninth note?

A ninth note is a note that lasts exactly 1/9 of a whole note (just as an
eighth note is a note that lasts exactly 1/8 of a whole note).

So in the figure ...

  \times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 }

... each of the notes carry the (effective) duration of 1/9 of a whole note
... which makes each of the nine notes above "ninth" notes.

Now, an absolutely *remarkable* aspect of Lily's duration-handling is that
the following constructions are all valid:

  \times 8/9 { c'8 }  % a single "ninth" note
  \times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 }  % a pair of ninth notes
  \times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 } % three of them
  \times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 } % four
  \times 8/9 { c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 } % five ninth notes

(Try it; this is one of the things that modern(ist) compers discover about
Lily that works "out of the box" that absolutely amazes us; try doing this
with Finale and Sibelius ... and then trying doing this with these things
crossing *over* barlines ...)

So the meter 5/9 then stands for a measure of exactly five ninth notes:

\new Staff {
  \time 5/9
  \times 8/9 { c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ] }
  |
  \time 5/8
  c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ]
}

(Notice that the bar check passes just fine showing that Lily's duration
math is all caught up at the end of the first measure.)

Opinions differ as to whether the tuplet should draw over such figures;
there seems, in general, to be a preference against drawing the tuplet:

\new Staff {
  \time 5/9
  \once \override TupletNumber #'transparent = ##t
  \times 8/9 { c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ] }
  |
  \time 5/8
  c'8 [ c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8 ]
}


So there's that

There's a separate question as to the use or desirability or whatever of
these types of figure. As with most rhythmic innovations, folks seem to
react violently at first and then get used to them. Maybe it helps to see
such figures as exact tempo changes lasting for a single measure; or,
alternately, as "broken" tuplets where only the first 5 out of 9 nontuplets
appear, for example.

(What frustrates me is that there's appearantly no *name* for the class of
time signatures of the form m/n where n is *not* an integer power of 2. In
my notes I frequently call these things "nonbinary" meters ... which seems
somehow unfortunate. If anybody has a good name for these meters, I would
love to steal.)




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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Mats Bengtsson]

The same problem was discussed some year ago on this mailing list
(or maybe on bug-lilypond), see the archives.

   /Mats


Ed Ardzinski wrote:


I did some playing last night and was surprised that you can have any 
denominator for a time signature, so my initial idea is wrong...not 
that I really understand what 5/9 time would really mean, but 
obviously LP interprets it.


Since it seems to be a lot of code that causes this, perhaps you have 
to experiment with whittling down the code to isolate the offending 
commands.  I'd be interested in seeing some of the code that uses 
these odd times.  Maybe there is a math error, and another set of eyes 
and fingers on a calculator can see it.



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: RE: hang --"going backwards in time;" "insane spring
distance requested"
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:09:12 +


Is 11748 a legit denominator for a time signature?
 
2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192,

16384...I am a pretty basic writer, so I've never gone beyond time
sigs like 13/16.

Have to admit the error message text is cute.



> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:46:00 -0800
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
> Subject: hang --"going backwards in time;" "insane spring
distance requested"
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm using some complicated time signatures, like 3599/11748 followed
> by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. (I have a good reason
for this).
>
> They render nicely for nearly ten pages or so of music, and then
> suddenly adding an additional "strange" time signature causes two
> programming errors:
>
> The first comes before drawing begins.
> "going backwards in time, trying to freeze in time . . ."
>
> The second comes during drawing.
> "insane spring distance requested, ignoring . . .cross fingers"
>
> Then lily hangs -- it keeps spinning forever.
>
> I'm using Lilypond 2.11.34 on a Mac PPC (it also breaks the same
> way in 2.11.35).
>
> I checked my arithmetic many times -- the strange time signtaures
> eventially lead to a sync-up with aother part in 3/8 meter --
and the
> math is correct. It seems to be a problem that happens when actually
> drawing the page.
>
> Any clues or similar experiences?
>
> Best,
> Adam
>
>
> ___
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--
=
Mats Bengtsson
Signal Processing
Signals, Sensors and Systems
Royal Institute of Technology
SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
Sweden
Phone: (+46) 8 790 8463 
   Fax:   (+46) 8 790 7260
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=



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RE: hang --"going backwards in time;" "insane spring distance requested"

[Ed Ardzinski]

I did some playing last night and was surprised that you can have any 
denominator for a time signature, so my initial idea is wrong...not that I 
really understand what 5/9 time would really mean, but obviously LP interprets 
it.Since it seems to be a lot of code that causes this, perhaps you have to 
experiment with whittling down the code to isolate the offending commands.  I'd 
be interested in seeing some of the code that uses these odd times.  Maybe 
there is a math error, and another set of eyes and fingers on a calculator can 
see it.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: hang --"going backwards in 
time;" "insane spring distance requested"Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:09:12 +


Is 11748 a legit denominator for a time signature? 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 
256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16384...I am a pretty basic writer, so I've 
never gone beyond time sigs like 13/16.Have to admit the error message text is 
cute.

> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:46:00 -0800> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 
> lilypond-user@gnu.org> Subject: hang --"going backwards in time;" "insane 
> spring distance requested"> > Hi all,> > I'm using some complicated time 
> signatures, like 3599/11748 followed> by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. 
> (I have a good reason for this).> > They render nicely for nearly ten pages 
> or so of music, and then> suddenly adding an additional "strange" time 
> signature causes two> programming errors:> > The first comes before drawing 
> begins.> "going backwards in time, trying to freeze in time . . ."> > The 
> second comes during drawing.> "insane spring distance requested, ignoring . . 
> .cross fingers"> > Then lily hangs -- it keeps spinning forever.> > I'm using 
> Lilypond 2.11.34 on a Mac PPC (it also breaks the same> way in 2.11.35).> > I 
> checked my arithmetic many times -- the strange time signtaures> eventially 
> lead to a sync-up with aother part in 3/8 meter -- and the> math is correct. 
> It seems to be a problem that happens when actually> drawing the page.> > Any 
> clues or similar experiences?> > Best,> Adam> > > 
> ___> lilypond-user mailing list> 
> lilypond-user@gnu.org> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

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Re: hang --"going backwards in time; " "insane spring distance requested"

[Valentin Villenave]

2007/11/26, Adam James Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm using some complicated time signatures, like 3599/11748 followed
> by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. (I have a good reason for this).

Just out of curiosity... How good can any reason be?

:-)

Valentin


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RE: hang --"going backwards in time;" "insane spring distance requested"

[Ed Ardzinski]

Is 11748 a legit denominator for a time signature?
 
2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16384...I am a 
pretty basic writer, so I've never gone beyond time sigs like 13/16.Have to 
admit the error message text is cute.



> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:46:00 -0800> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 
> lilypond-user@gnu.org> Subject: hang --"going backwards in time;" "insane 
> spring distance requested"> > Hi all,> > I'm using some complicated time 
> signatures, like 3599/11748 followed> by 2667/25276 followed by 177/568, etc. 
> (I have a good reason for this).> > They render nicely for nearly ten pages 
> or so of music, and then> suddenly adding an additional "strange" time 
> signature causes two> programming errors:> > The first comes before drawing 
> begins.> "going backwards in time, trying to freeze in time . . ."> > The 
> second comes during drawing.> "insane spring distance requested, ignoring . . 
> .cross fingers"> > Then lily hangs -- it keeps spinning forever.> > I'm using 
> Lilypond 2.11.34 on a Mac PPC (it also breaks the same> way in 2.11.35).> > I 
> checked my arithmetic many times -- the strange time signtaures> eventially 
> lead to a sync-up with aother part in 3/8 meter -- and the> math is correct. 
> It seems to be a problem that happens when actually> drawing the page.> > Any 
> clues or similar experiences?> > Best,> Adam> > > 
> ___> lilypond-user mailing list> 
> lilypond-user@gnu.org> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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