Re: Appending minor chords with "sus2/sus4"

[Brent Annable]

Lukas,

Aaaah, that makes sense. As a classical stiff I just assumed that
suspensions resolve downwards by default, so the 2 was in fact a suspended
tonic, not a suspended third. And since the minor third is already present
in the chord I'm dealing with, I think I'll just change it to Gm add9.

Thanks again!

Brent.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2021 at 18:10, Lukas-Fabian Moser  wrote:

> Hi Brent,
>
> > I'm currently adding chords to some music, and I can't seem to find
> > anywhere how to create a "Gmsus2" chord name. When I type "g:msus2"
> > lilypond freaks out, and as far as I can tell, this particular
> > combination of a minor chord with an added suspension never appears in
> > the documentation (at
> > https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.22/Documentation/notation/displaying-chords
> > 
>
> > ).
> >
> > I feel like I'm just missing something, is there an easy way to
> > display this chord type?
>
> It's not very common to ask for Gm-sus2 oder Gm-sus4: The sus2/sus4
> replace the third in the chord, so there's no trace of "minor" left.
>
> But you speak of _added_ suspensions: This sounds to me as if you are
> looking for Gm-add9 or Gm-add11?
>
> All of these may be forced with chordNameExceptions:
>
> \version "2.22.1"
>
> chExceptionMusic = {
>1-\markup { m\super "sus4" } % Semi-advisable? :-)
>1-\markup { m\super "sus2" } % Semi-advisable? :-)
>
>1-\markup { m\super "add9" }
>1-\markup { m\super "add11" }
>
> }
>
> % Convert music to list and prepend to existing exceptions.
> chExceptions = #(append
>(sequential-music-to-chord-exceptions chExceptionMusic #t)
>ignatzekExceptions)
>
> exampleChords = \relative {
>   
> }
>
> theMusic = {
>\mark "Standard"
>\exampleChords
>\bar "||"
>\set chordNameExceptions = #chExceptions
>\mark "Custom"
>\exampleChords
> }
>
> <<
> \new ChordNames \theMusic
> \new Voice \theMusic
>  >>
>
> Lukas
>
>

Re: Appending minor chords with "sus2/sus4"

[Robin Bannister]

Brent Annable wrote:

Hi all,

I'm currently adding chords to some music, and I can't seem to find 
anywhere how to create a "Gmsus2" chord name.  


[..]

I feel like I'm just missing something, is there an easy way to display 
this chord type?


See the discussion here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-11/msg00864.html


Cheers,
Robin

Re: Appending minor chords with "sus2/sus4"

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

Hi Brent,

I'm currently adding chords to some music, and I can't seem to find 
anywhere how to create a "Gmsus2" chord name. When I type "g:msus2" 
lilypond freaks out, and as far as I can tell, this particular 
combination of a minor chord with an added suspension never appears in 
the documentation (at 
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.22/Documentation/notation/displaying-chords 
 
).


I feel like I'm just missing something, is there an easy way to 
display this chord type?


It's not very common to ask for Gm-sus2 oder Gm-sus4: The sus2/sus4 
replace the third in the chord, so there's no trace of "minor" left.


But you speak of _added_ suspensions: This sounds to me as if you are 
looking for Gm-add9 or Gm-add11?


All of these may be forced with chordNameExceptions:

\version "2.22.1"

chExceptionMusic = {
  1-\markup { m\super "sus4" } % Semi-advisable? :-)
  1-\markup { m\super "sus2" } % Semi-advisable? :-)

  1-\markup { m\super "add9" }
  1-\markup { m\super "add11" }

}

% Convert music to list and prepend to existing exceptions.
chExceptions = #(append
  (sequential-music-to-chord-exceptions chExceptionMusic #t)
  ignatzekExceptions)

exampleChords = \relative {
 
}

theMusic = {
  \mark "Standard"
  \exampleChords
  \bar "||"
  \set chordNameExceptions = #chExceptions
  \mark "Custom"
  \exampleChords
}

<<
   \new ChordNames \theMusic
   \new Voice \theMusic
>>

Lukas

Appending minor chords with "sus2/sus4"

[Brent Annable]

Hi all,

I'm currently adding chords to some music, and I can't seem to find
anywhere how to create a "Gmsus2" chord name. When I type "g:msus2"
lilypond freaks out, and as far as I can tell, this particular combination
of a minor chord with an added suspension never appears in the
documentation (at
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.22/Documentation/notation/displaying-chords ).

I feel like I'm just missing something, is there an easy way to display
this chord type?

Regards,

Brent.

Re: MusicXML2Ly: Problem with minor chords

[David Kastrup]

Jacques Menu Muzhic  writes:

>> Le 17 août 2016 à 21:26, David Kastrup  a écrit:
>> 
>> Johan Vromans  writes:
>> 
>>> David Kastrup  wrote:
>>> 
 ... the change to let
 c:5 exclude the third was introduced as late as version 2.19.28).
>>> 
>>> Does that mean that there are no (regression)tests for musicxml2ly?
>> 
>> Probably not enough.
>
> BTW, how are such regression tests devised and organized?

For musicxml2ly I have no idea really.  Just take a look at what's there
I guess.

-- 
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Re: MusicXML2Ly: Problem with minor chords

[Jacques Menu Muzhic]

BTW, how are such regression tests devised and organized?

JM

> Le 17 août 2016 à 21:26, David Kastrup  a écrit :
> 
> Johan Vromans  writes:
> 
>> David Kastrup  wrote:
>> 
>>> ... the change to let
>>> c:5 exclude the third was introduced as late as version 2.19.28).
>> 
>> Does that mean that there are no (regression)tests for musicxml2ly?
> 
> Probably not enough.
> 
> -- 
> David Kastrup
> 
> ___
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> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


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Re: MusicXML2Ly: Problem with minor chords

[David Kastrup]

Johan Vromans  writes:

> David Kastrup  wrote:
>
>> ... the change to let
>> c:5 exclude the third was introduced as late as version 2.19.28).
>
> Does that mean that there are no (regression)tests for musicxml2ly?

Probably not enough.

-- 
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Re: MusicXML2Ly: Problem with minor chords

[Johan Vromans]

David Kastrup  wrote:

> ... the change to let
> c:5 exclude the third was introduced as late as version 2.19.28).

Does that mean that there are no (regression)tests for musicxml2ly?

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Re: MusicXML2Ly: Problem with minor chords

[Johan Vromans]

On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 14:15:02 +0200
David Kastrup  wrote:

> Well, musicxml2ly.py presumably also generates a \version header, and
> running convert-ly on the resulting file possibly fixes a number of
> those problems (even though it complicates the rules, the change to let
> c:5 exclude the third was introduced as late as version 2.19.28).

  $ /usr/bin/musicxml2ly minor.xml 
  musicxml2ly: Reading MusicXML from minor.xml ...
  musicxml2ly: Converting to LilyPond expressions...
  musicxml2ly: Output to `minor.ly'
  musicxml2ly: Converting to current version (2.19.45) notations ...

As you can see from the last line, musicxml2ly runs convert-ly. The
\version of the generated minor.ly is

  \version "2.19.45"

> Nevertheless it seems like a good idea to change musicxml2ly.py to
> generate output compatible with both older and newer versions.

Patch attached.

I don't know what to do with the major-minor chord.

-- Johan
--- /usr/bin/musicxml2ly	2016-07-11 05:38:00.0 +0200
+++ musicxml2ly	2016-08-16 23:16:59.894187641 +0200
@@ -1620,10 +1620,10 @@
 return r
 
 chordkind_dict = {
-'major': r'{}:5',
-'minor': r'{}:m5',
-'augmented': r'{}:aug5',
-'diminished': r'{}:dim5',
+'major': r'{}',
+'minor': r'{}:m',
+'augmented': r'{}:aug',
+'diminished': r'{}:dim',
 # Sevenths:
 'dominant': r'{}:7',
 'dominant-seventh': r'{}:7',
@@ -1631,7 +1631,7 @@
 'minor-seventh': r'{}:m7',
 'diminished-seventh': r'{}:dim7',
 'augmented-seventh': r'{}:aug7',
-'half-diminished': r'{}:dim5m7',
+'half-diminished': r'{}:m7.5-',
 'major-minor': r'{}:maj7m5',
 # Sixths:
 'major-sixth': r'{}:6',
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Re: MusicXML2Ly: Problem with minor chords

[David Kastrup]

Johan Vromans  writes:

> Johan Vromans  wrote:
>
>> is translated into
>> 
>>   d:m5
>> 
>> and apparently not understood -- lilypond renders it as a major D chord
>> without warning.
>
> The code in musicxml2ly.py does, indeed, generate :m5 for minor.
>
> Surprisingly, the NR, A.2 Common chord modifiers, reads:
>
>   Major   Major third, perfect fifth   5 or nothing   c1:5   notes: c g
>   Minor   Minor third, perfect fifth   m or m5c1:m   notes: c ees g
>
> Despite the examples showing otherwise, this could easily be
> interpreted to mean that c is the same as c:5, and that c1:m is the
> same as c:m. However, the trailing '5' makes a power chord (no
> 3rd). In the case of minor the distinction with the major chord is
> lost.
>
> I really wonder if it is intentional behaviour for musicxml2ly to use m5
> for minor.
> Same goes for :5 (for major), :aug5, :dim5, :dim5m7, and :maj5m5.

Well, musicxml2ly.py presumably also generates a \version header, and
running convert-ly on the resulting file possibly fixes a number of
those problems (even though it complicates the rules, the change to let
c:5 exclude the third was introduced as late as version 2.19.28).

Nevertheless it seems like a good idea to change musicxml2ly.py to
generate output compatible with both older and newer versions.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: MusicXML2Ly: Problem with minor chords

[Johan Vromans]

Johan Vromans  wrote:

> is translated into
> 
>   d:m5
> 
> and apparently not understood -- lilypond renders it as a major D chord
> without warning.

The code in musicxml2ly.py does, indeed, generate :m5 for minor.

Surprisingly, the NR, A.2 Common chord modifiers, reads:

  Major   Major third, perfect fifth   5 or nothing   c1:5   notes: c g
  Minor   Minor third, perfect fifth   m or m5c1:m   notes: c ees g

Despite the examples showing otherwise, this could easily be interpreted to
mean that c is the same as c:5, and that c1:m is the same as c:m. However,
the trailing '5' makes a power chord (no 3rd). In the case of minor the
distinction with the major chord is lost.

I really wonder if it is intentional behaviour for musicxml2ly to use m5
for minor.
Same goes for :5 (for major), :aug5, :dim5, :dim5m7, and :maj5m5.

-- Johan

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MusicXML2Ly: Problem with minor chords

[Johan Vromans]

Hi,

In the attached XML, the minor D chord

  

  D

minor
  

is translated into

  d:m5

and apparently not understood -- lilypond renders it as a major D chord
without warning.

Dm(maj7) becomes d:maj7m5.

A similar thing happens to half-diminished chords: Bm7b5 becomes b:dim5m7.

Is this a known problem? Googling for "musicxml2ly minor" did not return
anything relevant.

-- Johan
\version "2.19.45"
% automatically converted by musicxml2ly from x.xml
\pointAndClickOff

\header {
encodingsoftware =  "MuseScore 2.0.3"
source =  "http://musescore.com/score/1578186";
copyright =  "Círculo da Música - 2011"
encodingdate =  "2016-08-16"
}

PartPOneVoiceOne =  \relative a {
\clef "treble" \key f \major \numericTimeSignature\time 4/4 \partial
8 a8 \bar "||"
a'8 f8 d2. }

PartPOneVoiceOneChords =  \chordmode {
\partial 8 s8 \bar "||"
d8:m5 s8 }


% The score definition
\score {
<<

\context ChordNames = "PartPOneVoiceOneChords" { \PartPOneVoiceOneChords}
\new Staff
<<
\set Staff.instrumentName = "Guitar"

\context Staff << 
\mergeDifferentlyDottedOn\mergeDifferentlyHeadedOn
\context Voice = "PartPOneVoiceOne" {  \PartPOneVoiceOne }
>>
>>

>>
\layout {}
% To create MIDI output, uncomment the following line:
%  \midi {\tempo 4 = 100 }
}



minor.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document


minor.xml
Description: XML document
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Re: minor chords

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 22:03:49 -0400
Kieren MacMillan  wrote:

> Hi Simon (et al.),
> 
> > I think this is one of the few questions where it’s really
> > difficult to establish a standard.
> 
> Agreed.
> It’s the one big disappointment that I have in Gould’s
> engraving book: she doesn’t even address the subject at all!!
> 
> > Plus: there’s still some leap between the lilypond standard
> > output – which one may usually take as „standard” indeed –
> > and other options which are available if one looks for them.
> 
> I’ve always found the Lilypond chord names default(s) to be
> totally unacceptable; I have a ChordNames.ly standard include,
> which changes font, size, placement, and contains an almost
> complete rewrite of the chord symbols.

There was a standard that arose because of the extensive
expansion of chord names necessary for bop. Lead sheet
writers abandoned all symbols except the sharp and flat,
and the only useful addition has been the slash basses
of the sixties. I remember how much I hated the triangle
for maj7 on sight, because the triangle hastily drawn can
be mistaken for almost anything. This 1940's usage was contrary
to the love for cryptic symbols like the little o's that
were introduced in pop music.

I got over disliking the C6 for a first inversion Bm7.

Even a C4 or Csus is tolerable, but Csus4 is better.

C2 is better than C9omit7, but there is nothing wrong with
the latter. It's a matter of style.

Since any chord can be easily typed with an ordinary
font, the newest standard, from the 1940's, is IMO the
best. I enter chords as text anyway. You can find a sharp and flat
in most fonts, or just use # and b:

Gm13(#7b5#9#11)/g but Gmmaj7, Gmmaj79

Why can't I enter chords as they will print with your system? It's
not even an option now.

Regards, Rale

-- 
For All Guitar Beginners: The pages of very easy solos missing
from all of the published guitar methods of others.
For All Guitarists: solos, duets, and peerless guitar exercises
David Raleigh Arnold   http://www.openguitar.com

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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 22.03.2014 11:01, schrieb Anthony:
Well, I've put in a fair bit of time and effort over the years. The 
problem, as always, is finding time to play, and also remembering what 
worked last time :-) Many moons ago, I proofread the entire main 
manual about three times! I've dug into the code and tried to 
contribute. Unfortunately, like most power tools, lily is not very 
friendly to light users - that's just the nature of the beast.
True. To dig deeper, one also needs experience with or interest in 
programming – that is, in some kind of mathematical/logical thinking. 
And since most (or many) people have a pronounced dislike against maths 
and are happy to never have to look below the surface of their OS, this 
is an important point…
Well, there are the templates in Frescobaldi which make it easy as long 
as one follows the exact path indicated, but this is rarely a long time…
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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Anthony Youngman" 
To: "Kieren MacMillan" ; 


Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)


Oh - and sorry Phil, "page-count = 1" didn't work. Although iirc I put
it in \layout{} not \paper{}. Unless that was the wrong place to put it?
That's another place for confusion - I get the impression that some
settings work fine in either, others only seem to work in the layout
section, maybe others only work in the paper section?

Cheers,
Wol


If you look in the Notation Reference index under "page-count" it will tell 
you all you need to make it work.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Anthony]

On 22/03/2014 07:50, Simon Albrecht wrote:


Am 22.03.2014 02:45, schrieb Anthony Youngman:


And I don't tend to dig deep into all the "esoteric" settings - there
are so many of them that I don't understand, that I tend to shy away
from them. I shouldn't, but I'd rather just use standard bells and
whistles - when I need to use all sorts of fancy over-ride tricks to
achieve effects that I see in pretty much *all* the printed music I
play, it puts me off.

Well, redefining paper variables is actually not really advanced.
If you want to understand better what LilyPond does and how you can 
alter the output, you’ll be well advised to read in the Notation 
Reference on the website and collect what information you need – in 
most cases there is an explanation there, except for more extravagant 
wishes. Of course this costs time until you have an overview, but it 
will reward the effort. 


Well, I've put in a fair bit of time and effort over the years. The 
problem, as always, is finding time to play, and also remembering what 
worked last time :-) Many moons ago, I proofread the entire main manual 
about three times! I've dug into the code and tried to contribute. 
Unfortunately, like most power tools, lily is not very friendly to light 
users - that's just the nature of the beast.


That said, I think now I know about Kieren's "page-break-permission = 
##f", coupled with putting "page = 1" in the right place, I think it'll 
work fine. Then I'll have to see if those two work together to force two 
pages ... :-)


I need to find some time to play ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol
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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 22.03.2014 02:45, schrieb Anthony Youngman:


And I don't tend to dig deep into all the "esoteric" settings - there
are so many of them that I don't understand, that I tend to shy away
from them. I shouldn't, but I'd rather just use standard bells and
whistles - when I need to use all sorts of fancy over-ride tricks to
achieve effects that I see in pretty much *all* the printed music I
play, it puts me off.

Well, redefining paper variables is actually not really advanced.
If you want to understand better what LilyPond does and how you can 
alter the output, you’ll be well advised to read in the Notation 
Reference on the website and collect what information you need – in most 
cases there is an explanation there, except for more extravagant wishes. 
Of course this costs time until you have an overview, but it will reward 
the effort.

That said, I'll play with this and see what it does - I've got a piece
I've been working on that I had to muck about with and force.

Oh - and sorry Phil, "page-count = 1" didn't work. Although iirc I put
it in \layout{} not \paper{}. Unless that was the wrong place to put it?

Yes. page-count is a paper variable and can only be set in \paper {}.

That's another place for confusion - I get the impression that some
settings work fine in either, others only seem to work in the layout
section, maybe others only work in the paper section?

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Wol,

>> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f
> m  not met that.
> 
> My first reaction though, is why would what appears to be a line-break
> setting affect the number of pages?

Sorry — should have been

\override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-break-permission = ##f

Kieren.
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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Anthony Youngman]

On 19/03/14 18:13, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
>> there is no setting that says "force everything onto one page, beauty be 
>> damned"
> 
> Does
> 
> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f
> 
> not work for you?
> 
> Cheers, Kieren.

m  not met that.

My first reaction though, is why would what appears to be a line-break
setting affect the number of pages?

And I don't tend to dig deep into all the "esoteric" settings - there
are so many of them that I don't understand, that I tend to shy away
from them. I shouldn't, but I'd rather just use standard bells and
whistles - when I need to use all sorts of fancy over-ride tricks to
achieve effects that I see in pretty much *all* the printed music I
play, it puts me off.

That said, I'll play with this and see what it does - I've got a piece
I've been working on that I had to muck about with and force.

Oh - and sorry Phil, "page-count = 1" didn't work. Although iirc I put
it in \layout{} not \paper{}. Unless that was the wrong place to put it?
That's another place for confusion - I get the impression that some
settings work fine in either, others only seem to work in the layout
section, maybe others only work in the paper section?

Cheers,
Wol

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RE: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Kieren MacMillan]

> there is no setting that says "force everything onto one page, beauty be 
> damned"
Does

\override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f
not work for you?
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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Phil Burfitt]

- Original Message - 
From: "Anthony" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)



On 17/03/2014 10:40, Robert Schmaus wrote:
But there's another thing that surprises me in this discussion: I always 
thought that Lilypond is mainly being used and intended for "classical" 
(exact) music.
I think it's always been intended to produce "beautiful music for any 
usage requirement". The snag is that that is actually very hard. I 
regularly use it for Band parts, and the difference between one and two 
pages is the difference between playable and unplayable music. My gripe is 
there is no setting that says "force everything onto one page, beauty be 
damned".


in \paper{}...
page-count = 1 ?


But hey. At the end of the day, lily does a very good job :-)

Cheers,
Wol





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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Anthony]

On 17/03/2014 10:40, Robert Schmaus wrote:

But there's another thing that surprises me in this discussion: I always thought that 
Lilypond is mainly being used and intended for "classical" (exact) music.
I think it's always been intended to produce "beautiful music for any 
usage requirement". The snag is that that is actually very hard. I 
regularly use it for Band parts, and the difference between one and two 
pages is the difference between playable and unplayable music. My gripe 
is there is no setting that says "force everything onto one page, beauty 
be damned".


But hey. At the end of the day, lily does a very good job :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[David Kastrup]

Robert Schmaus  writes:

> Oh, I'm sorry. I was looking into the problem some months ago and
> found a email correspondence between David kastrup and others about
> the removal of the "accepts" technique. I have never seen that it was
> later replaced by this new command.

There is no new command.  The example in the 2.18 manual is exactly the
same as in the 2.16 manual.  The example in the 2.19 manual has been
changed to be "more illustrative", not because the old example would
have stopped working.

As I wrote: it works as before.

Maybe one should put the old example somewhere else as it would appear
that it is something that it is specifically something people want to do?

-- 
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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Robert Schmaus]

Oh, I'm sorry. I was looking into the problem some months ago and found a email 
correspondence between David kastrup and others about the removal of the 
"accepts" technique. I have never seen that it was later replaced by this new 
command. 

My apologies!
Also for sending an accidental reply just a couple of minutes ago ...


> Please don't spread rumors.  It works as before:
> 
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/context-layout-order>
> 
> This has been fixed in 2.17.30, issue 3641.  So it most definitely does
> not preclude you from moving to 2.18 or 2.19



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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[David Kastrup]

Robert Schmaus  writes:

> -
> Von meinem Fliewatüüt gesendet.

[full-quote without content elided]

I think Jazz musicians really should get off the habit of only writing -
when it would be so much easier to get their meaning if they were just a
bit more verbose.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Robert Schmaus]

-
Von meinem Fliewatüüt gesendet.

> On 17 Mar 2014, at 11:57, David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> Robert Schmaus  writes:
> 
>> So, again, it boils down to whatever works. There's no standard to
>> this, and frankly, I've never experienced that as a problem. Jazz
>> music is improvised music, and I don't know a jazz musician who has
>> problems "improvising" here as well. Everyone has different
>> preferences, sure, but problems reading different styles - not at all.
>> My own preference for C-Δ7 over, say, Cmmaj7 is simply a question of
>> space: the latter takes up WAY too much of it (in particular as this
>> chord often appears as a transition between C- and C-7 and uses only
>> half a bar).
>> 
>> But there's another thing that surprises me in this discussion: I
>> always thought that Lilypond is mainly being used and intended for
>> "classical" (exact) music.
>> Now I have the impression that indeed many use it for jazz sheets as
>> we'll - I, myself, use LP only for that, but can't move from version
>> 2.16 to 17 or 18, because the possibility to have Staffs accept chord
>> names has been removed.
> 
> Please don't spread rumors.  It works as before:
> 
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/context-layout-order>
> 
> This has been fixed in 2.17.30, issue 3641.  So it most definitely does
> not preclude you from moving to 2.18 or 2.19.
> 
>> That is, however a common notation practice in jazz music. Is there an
>> obvious replacement for this that I haven't seen yet ... or is no one
>> but me using that notation style in LP?
> 
> N/A
> 
> -- 
> David Kastrup

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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[David Kastrup]

Robert Schmaus  writes:

> So, again, it boils down to whatever works. There's no standard to
> this, and frankly, I've never experienced that as a problem. Jazz
> music is improvised music, and I don't know a jazz musician who has
> problems "improvising" here as well. Everyone has different
> preferences, sure, but problems reading different styles - not at all.
> My own preference for C-Δ7 over, say, Cmmaj7 is simply a question of
> space: the latter takes up WAY too much of it (in particular as this
> chord often appears as a transition between C- and C-7 and uses only
> half a bar).
>
> But there's another thing that surprises me in this discussion: I
> always thought that Lilypond is mainly being used and intended for
> "classical" (exact) music.
> Now I have the impression that indeed many use it for jazz sheets as
> we'll - I, myself, use LP only for that, but can't move from version
> 2.16 to 17 or 18, because the possibility to have Staffs accept chord
> names has been removed.

Please don't spread rumors.  It works as before:

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/context-layout-order>

This has been fixed in 2.17.30, issue 3641.  So it most definitely does
not preclude you from moving to 2.18 or 2.19.

> That is, however a common notation practice in jazz music. Is there an
> obvious replacement for this that I haven't seen yet ... or is no one
> but me using that notation style in LP?

N/A

-- 
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Re: minor chords (and a possible transition to a new topic)

[Robert Schmaus]

So, again, it boils down to whatever works. There's no standard to this, and 
frankly, I've never experienced that as a problem. Jazz music is improvised 
music, and I don't know a jazz musician who has problems "improvising" here as 
well. Everyone has different preferences, sure, but problems reading different 
styles - not at all. 
My own preference for C-Δ7 over, say, Cmmaj7 is simply a question of space: the 
latter takes up WAY too much of it (in particular as this chord often appears 
as a transition between C- and C-7 and uses only half a bar). 

But there's another thing that surprises me in this discussion: I always 
thought that Lilypond is mainly being used and intended for "classical" (exact) 
music. 
Now I have the impression that indeed many use it for jazz sheets as we'll - I, 
myself, use LP only for that, but can't move from version 2.16 to 17 or 18, 
because the possibility to have Staffs accept chord names has been removed.
That is, however a common notation practice in jazz music. Is there an obvious 
replacement for this that I haven't seen yet ... or is no one but me using that 
notation style in LP?

Best, Robert 

-
Von meinem Fliewatüüt gesendet.

> On 17 Mar 2014, at 10:12, Marc Hohl  wrote:
> 
> Am 17.03.2014 01:45, schrieb Jim Long:
>>> I understand the Cmi7, too, but when sketching
>>> some chords on paper during a Jazz session, a simple "-" is
>>> way faster to write than "mi" all the way.
>>> 
>>> So it's rather a matter of personal taste IMHO.
>>> 
>>> Just my 2 cents
>>> 
>>> Marc
>> 
>> With great respect, I beg to add,
>> 
>> Beware of "shortcuts" which are for the benefit of the writer.
>> IMO, engraving decisions should be made for the benefit of the
>> reader.
> 
> Yep, that's true. I was unclear in my answer above: the first
> "Real Book" was a collection of songs written by Steve Swallow.
> He used the "-" sign for the whole book AFAIK.
> After his collection got copied over and over again, most
> musicians got accustomed to this style. So I think it's a matter
> of habit.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I'd prefer a C-7 over a Cmi7, and a C-Δ
> over Cmmaj7. But I can play both ;-)
> 
> Marc
> 
> 
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Re: minor chords

[Marc Hohl]

Am 17.03.2014 01:45, schrieb Jim Long:

I understand the Cmi7, too, but when sketching
some chords on paper during a Jazz session, a simple "-" is
way faster to write than "mi" all the way.

So it's rather a matter of personal taste IMHO.

Just my 2 cents

Marc


With great respect, I beg to add,

Beware of "shortcuts" which are for the benefit of the writer.
IMO, engraving decisions should be made for the benefit of the
reader.


Yep, that's true. I was unclear in my answer above: the first
"Real Book" was a collection of songs written by Steve Swallow.
He used the "-" sign for the whole book AFAIK.
After his collection got copied over and over again, most
musicians got accustomed to this style. So I think it's a matter
of habit.

Speaking for myself, I'd prefer a C-7 over a Cmi7, and a C-Δ
over Cmmaj7. But I can play both ;-)

Marc


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Re: minor chords

[David Kastrup]

Jim Long  writes:

> Beware of "shortcuts" which are for the benefit of the writer.
> IMO, engraving decisions should be made for the benefit of the
> reader.

To some degree, we can separate those with LilyPond, but there is
something to be said for human-readable source code as well.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: minor chords

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi Simon (et al.),
>
>> I think this is one of the few questions where it’s really difficult
>> to establish a standard.
>
> Agreed.
> It’s the one big disappointment that I have in Gould’s engraving book:
> she doesn’t even address the subject at all!!
>
>> Plus: there’s still some leap between the lilypond standard output –
>> which one may usually take as „standard” indeed – and other options
>> which are available if one looks for them.
>
> I’ve always found the Lilypond chord names default(s) to be totally
> unacceptable; I have a ChordNames.ly standard include, which changes
> font, size, placement,

Well, font needs to be readily available on default installations.
Which does not mean that the current choice is the best even given that
constraint.

I'll readily agree that the default is awful.

> and contains an almost complete rewrite of the chord symbols.

The naming scheme is probably not up to debates all that much (probably
partly because of compatibility considerations) but that does not mean
that one cannot offer alternatives.

All in all chord names seem like an area where you have a good chance of
not meeting lots of resistance for getting improvements accepted into
LilyPond.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: minor chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Jim (et al.),

> engraving decisions should be made for the benefit of the reader.

+1

Kieren.

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Re: minor chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Simon (et al.),

> I think this is one of the few questions where it’s really difficult to 
> establish a standard.

Agreed.
It’s the one big disappointment that I have in Gould’s engraving book: she 
doesn’t even address the subject at all!!

> Plus: there’s still some leap between the lilypond standard output – which 
> one may usually take as „standard” indeed – and other options which are 
> available if one looks for them.

I’ve always found the Lilypond chord names default(s) to be totally 
unacceptable; I have a ChordNames.ly standard include, which changes font, 
size, placement, and contains an almost complete rewrite of the chord symbols.

Cheers,
Kieren.
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Re: minor chords

[Jim Long]

> I understand the Cmi7, too, but when sketching
> some chords on paper during a Jazz session, a simple "-" is
> way faster to write than "mi" all the way.
> 
> So it's rather a matter of personal taste IMHO.
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> 
> Marc

With great respect, I beg to add,

Beware of "shortcuts" which are for the benefit of the writer.
IMO, engraving decisions should be made for the benefit of the
reader.

Jim

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Re: minor chords

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 17.03.2014 00:15, schrieb Kieren MacMillan:

Hi Simon,


I’m under the impression that this debate is very old, widespread and unlikely 
to end in onemindedness

True.


so it’s just advisable to provide different options, which will let everyone 
have his will

That doesn’t logically follow!  :)
Well-considered and concensus- (if not totality-) based standards are almost 
always superior to The Wild West approach.

Cheers,
Kieren.
Right you are – „let everyone have his will” was definitely exaggerated. 
Only I think this is one of the few questions where it’s really 
difficult to establish a standard. Plus: there’s still some leap between 
the lilypond standard output – which one may usually take as „standard” 
indeed – and other options which are available if one looks for them.


Good night,
Simon

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Re: minor chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Simon,

> I’m under the impression that this debate is very old, widespread and 
> unlikely to end in onemindedness

True.

> so it’s just advisable to provide different options, which will let everyone 
> have his will

That doesn’t logically follow!  :)
Well-considered and concensus- (if not totality-) based standards are almost 
always superior to The Wild West approach.

Cheers,
Kieren.
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Re: minor chords

[Simon Albrecht]

Am 16.03.2014 17:52, schrieb Kieren MacMillan:

Hi,


I wonder why the notation of minor as lowercase seems to be only known in 
German folk circles …

It’s known here, too — at least in my circles — but avoided, mostly because at 
a glance it can be hard to tell c from C.  =)
As in all notation, ambiguity is to be avoided at all costs.

Cheers,
Kieren.
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I’m under the impression that this debate is very old, widespread and 
unlikely to end in onemindedness, so it’s just advisable to provide 
different options, which will let everyone have his will, and which is 
also the present LilyPond policy in this matter, so no need for thorough 
changes.


Greetings,
Simon

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Re: minor chords

[David Kastrup]

Henning Hraban Ramm  writes:

> I wonder why the notation of minor as lowercase seems to be only known
> in German folk circles ...
> (I’m glad I could nag some of you long enough to make it possible in 
> LilyPond.)

Well, it's usefulness is limited as soon as you count the accordion as a
folk instrument: the upper/lowercase distinction is already taken for
bass/chord notes.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: minor chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi,

> I wonder why the notation of minor as lowercase seems to be only known in 
> German folk circles …

It’s known here, too — at least in my circles — but avoided, mostly because at 
a glance it can be hard to tell c from C.  =)
As in all notation, ambiguity is to be avoided at all costs.

Cheers,
Kieren.
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Re: minor chords

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

I wonder why the notation of minor as lowercase seems to be only known in 
German folk circles ...
(I’m glad I could nag some of you long enough to make it possible in LilyPond.)

Greetlings, Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
http://www.fiee.net
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)





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Re: minor chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi all,

> Personally, I use "-" for minor chords, and add a superscript triangle-7

I find the triangle to be less well-known in the circles in which I travel — 
mostly music theatre, but also some jazzers (n.b., most, of course, are 
familiar with the triangle notation).

The best notation I’ve found — i.e., the least ambiguous and most immediately 
[sight-]readable — is Cm(maj7), including parentheses. I’ve never had anyone 
complain about that notation, whereas the triangle leads to 
discussion/explanation in a statistically-significant portion of the sessions 
I’ve attended.

> provided the "maj7" part comes as a superscript.

Having learned my lesson the hard way, I now avoid all super- and sub-scripts: 
when players or situations present vision limitations (e.g., players need 
glasses, light is low, etc.), the smaller font sometimes leads to problems.

Hope this helps!
Kieren.
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Re: minor chords

[Martin Tarenskeen]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2014, David Raleigh Arnold wrote:


Minus for minor is a horrible idea. It's also old fashioned
and abandoned even by the "Real Book".


What do you mean by "the" Real Book? I have a copy of the original Real 
Book. It uses the "-" for minor. I tried to exactly recreate an old Real 
Book page. That's the reason I posted my question. Personally I prefer "m" 
for minor.



It could be ignored as a
spacer. Minus could be taken to mean "omit". Cmmaj7 is more
readable than than C-maj7. Don't do it. Regards, Rale


Uggh. I agree C-maj7 is extremely ugly. Hadn't thought of that.

Anyway, it's another example that with LilyPond anything is possible, even 
ugliness :-)


--

MT

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Re: minor chords

[Marc Hohl]

Am 16.03.2014 04:36, schrieb David Raleigh Arnold:

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 17:19:28 +0100 (CET)
Martin Tarenskeen  wrote:



Hi,


[...]

Minus for minor is a horrible idea. It's also old fashioned
and abandoned even by the "Real Book".


I don't want to start a philosophical discussion about pros
and cons of a certain style, but I am used to read the minus
sign as minor – I understand the Cmi7, too, but when sketching
some chords on paper during a Jazz session, a simple "-" is
way faster to write than "mi" all the way.

So it's rather a matter of personal taste IMHO.

Just my 2 cents

Marc


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Re: minor chords

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 17:19:28 +0100 (CET)
Martin Tarenskeen  wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am working on a leadsheet (melody and chords) which is a job
> I don't do very often. I want to print maj7 chordnames using
> "maj7" or "Maj7" instead of the default triangle. I have found
> in the manual how to do that.
> 
> I also want to use a minus sign for minor chords. e.g. "C-"
> instead of "Cm". How can I achieve that?
> 

Minus for minor is a horrible idea. It's also old fashioned
and abandoned even by the "Real Book". It could be ignored as a
spacer. Minus could be taken to mean "omit". Cmmaj7 is more
readable than than C-maj7. Don't do it. Regards, Rale



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Re: minor chords

[Martin Tarenskeen]

On Fri, 14 Mar 2014, Adam Spiers wrote:


Luckily for you, I implemented that option in LilyPond a while ago :)

   \chordmode {
   \set minorChordModifier = \markup { "-" }
   ...


Thanks! I was searching an older manual.

--

MT




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Re: minor chords

[Adam Spiers]

On 14 March 2014 16:19, Martin Tarenskeen  wrote:
> I also want to use a minus sign for minor chords. e.g. "C-" instead of "Cm".
> How can I achieve that?

Luckily for you, I implemented that option in LilyPond a while ago :)

\chordmode {
\set minorChordModifier = \markup { "-" }
...

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/displaying-chords#customizing-chord-names

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minor chords

[Martin Tarenskeen]

Hi,

I am working on a leadsheet (melody and chords) which is a job I don't do 
very often. I want to print maj7 chordnames using "maj7" or "Maj7" instead 
of the default triangle. I have found in the manual how to do that.


I also want to use a minus sign for minor chords. e.g. "C-" instead of 
"Cm". How can I achieve that?


--

MT


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Re: Dash instead of 'm' for minor chords

[Shamus]

Thibaut Chevalier wrote:

> However, i had to write this complicated markup to obtain a correct "7 /
> b5"
> for semi-diminished chords (instead of the dashed circle).
> 
> -\markup { "-" \super {7/ \hspace #0.2 \teeny {\raise
> #0.3 \flat} 5} }% C dashed circle -> C-7/5b
> 
> It seems that the \flat inside the \super does not behave like the rest of
> the text, and is bigger and to low than the usual superscript text, but I
> could not figure why, reading the Overview of Markup commands. Has anyone a
> clue ? (
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.8/Documentation/user/lilypond/Overview-of-text-markup-commands.html#Overview-of-text-markup-commands
> 
> ).


This has always been one of my pet peeves with the chord handling on
lilypond (why can't those sharps and flats be the right size and
correctly placed by default?!? /me head explodes). Anyway, I've been
using (for example)

-\markup { "7" \tiny \raise #1.0 { \flat } "5" }
-\markup { "7" \teeny \raise #1.0 { \sharp } "5" }

with a condensed font and it looks great--the sharp and flat symbols are
proportional to each other and correctly placed.

As far as I know, the \super command does nothing to the size of the
character it's raising (i.e., it's a shortcut method of doing \raise) so
I'm not sure what the issue is there (though I could be wrong about that).

-- Shamus


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Re: Dash instead of 'm' for minor chords

[Paul Scott]

Thibaut Chevalier wrote:

Thanks, it works great !
I personnally prefer the minus sign which is a little shorter.

However, i had to write this complicated markup to obtain a correct "7 
/ b5" for semi-diminished chords (instead of the dashed circle).


-\markup { "-" \super {7/ \hspace #0.2 \teeny 
{\raise #0.3 \flat} 5} }% C dashed circle -> C-7/5b


It seems that the \flat inside the \super does not behave like the 
rest of the text, and is bigger and to low than the usual superscript 
text, but I could not figure why, reading the Overview of Markup 
commands. Has anyone a clue ? 
(http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.8/Documentation/user/lilypond/Overview-of-text-markup-commands.html#Overview-of-text-markup-commands 
).



I believe accidentals are always too large when compared to text.

Paul Scott



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Re: Dash instead of 'm' for minor chords

[Thibaut Chevalier]

Thanks, it works great !
I personnally prefer the minus sign which is a little shorter.  
However, i had to write this complicated markup to obtain a correct "7 / b5" for semi-diminished chords (instead of the dashed circle).

-    \markup { "-" \super {7/ \hspace #0.2 \teeny
{\raise #0.3 \flat} 5} }    % C dashed circle -> C-7/5bIt seems that the \flat inside the \super does not behave like the rest
of the text, and is bigger and to low than the usual superscript text, but I could not figure why, reading the Overview of Markup
commands. Has anyone a clue ?
(http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.8/Documentation/user/lilypond/Overview-of-text-markup-commands.html#Overview-of-text-markup-commands
).Thibaut.On 30/06/06, Vicente Solsona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I use the same system as Shamus, but I use the dash simbol instad theminus symbol, because I find it to be a bit more polite. So I have then:
jazzyChordsMusic ={   1-\markup {#(ly:export (ly:wide-char->utf-8 #x2013))} % Cm -> C-   % and so on...}I have jazzyChordsMusic and jazzyChordsAdd in a separate "
jazzchords.ly"file, so everytime I want my custom chord names (well, always :) ), I justinclude that file.Greetings,Vincent___lilypond-user mailing list
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Re: Dash instead of 'm' for minor chords

[Vicente Solsona]

I use the same system as Shamus, but I use the dash simbol instad the  
minus symbol, because I find it to be a bit more polite. So I have then:


jazzyChordsMusic =
{
  1-\markup {#(ly:export (ly:wide-char->utf-8 #x2013))} % Cm -> C-
  % and so on...
}

I have jazzyChordsMusic and jazzyChordsAdd in a separate "jazzchords.ly"  
file, so everytime I want my custom chord names (well, always :) ), I just  
include that file.


Greetings,

Vincent


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Re: Dash instead of 'm' for minor chords

[Shamus]

Hi!

> Is there a way to get a dash (-) instead of m for minor chords in chordmode
> notation ?
> 
> Thanks for any bright solution

I don't know if it's bright or not, but short of going into the
appropriate .scm file and changing the "m" there to a "-", you would
have go do the chordNameExceptions route:

jazzyChordsMusic =
{
  -\markup { "-" } % Cm -> C-
  -\markup { "-7" }% Cm7 -> C-7
  -\markup { "-9" } % Cm9 -> C-9
  % Add more as needed
}

jazzyChordsAdd = #(append
  (sequential-music-to-chord-exceptions jazzyChordsMusic #t)
  ignatzekExceptions)

jazzyChords =
{
  \set chordNameExceptions = #jazzyChordsAdd
}

Then, in your chordNames, at the top you would put \jazzyChords in like so:

Chords = \chordmode
{
  \jazzyChords

  c1:m
  c:m7
  c:m9
}

There's probably a better way to do it with partial exceptions, but I
can't seem to find a quick 'n' dirty example.

-- Shamus


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Dash instead of 'm' for minor chords

[Thibaut Chevalier]

Hi there,Is there a way to get a dash (-) instead of m for minor chords in chordmode notation ?I found there is a special property to change the maj7 triangle to whatever we want, but is there nothing for the 'm' ?
The dash is widely used, in jazz at least, that's too bad if it it not possible to obtain it !Thanks for any bright solutionThibaut Chevalier.
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