Re: Desktop settings (was Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan)
> I've used a combination of xmodmap and WM options, but I'd really like > an option to do it at the tty console level... See kbd package. locate i386/qwerty/us.map.gz, or something the sort. Ungz. Find the caps lock key. Rename to control. I think it was keycode 58. Can't remember. For systemd, /etc/vconsole.conf, set KEYMAP=us-capsasctrl, or whatever you called the file. Put it in the /usr/local hierarchy, not the /usr one. If the distro built kbd properly, which is most likely, it will just work. To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Desktop settings (was Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan)
On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 11:54:22 -0400 Richard Guy Briggs wrote: > The two things I must have are "focus follows mouse" Preach! Click-to-focus is an abomination! > and a control key where the caps-lock key is frequently found to the > left of the "a". I think you can do that with xmodmap (if you're running X11, of course) and that should be independent of the desktop environment. Regards, Dianne. To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 09:15:45 -0400 Richard Guy Briggs wrote: [...] > I used to run Ubuntu on multiple laptops and desktops. I won't touch > it anymore since they managed to break things on two reasonably > standard desktop hardware a decade ago where Debian didn't even > blink, and, I don't trust Shuttleworth. I had an *extremely* unpleasant personal interaction with Shuttleworth that completely soured me on anything Ubuntu- or Canonical-related. Regards, Dianne. To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: Desktop settings (was Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan)
On 21/07/15, Brett Delmage wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jul 2021, Dianne Skoll wrote: > > > On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 11:54:22 -0400 > > Richard Guy Briggs wrote: > > > > > The two things I must have are "focus follows mouse" > > > > Preach! Click-to-focus is an abomination! > > I do use a window manager. > > But 99% of the time I want my window full-screen (with or without a > title bar) because that's what I am focussing on and I want to see as > much as possible of it. > > Alt-tab to change focus works for me. Aye! > Or shift-tab to change terminal screens. > > What's a "mouse"? :-) It's this tiny red thing between the "g", "h" and "b" keys. ;-) slainte mhath, RGB -- Richard Guy Briggs -- ~\-- ~\ -- \___ o \@ @ Ride yer bike! Ottawa, ON, CANADA -- Lo_>__M__\\/\%__\\/\% Vote! -- _GTVS6#790__(*)__(*)(*)(*)_ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: Desktop settings (was Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan)
On 21/07/15, Dianne Skoll wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 11:54:22 -0400 > Richard Guy Briggs wrote: > > > The two things I must have are "focus follows mouse" > > Preach! Click-to-focus is an abomination! :-B > > and a control key where the caps-lock key is frequently found to the > > left of the "a". > > I think you can do that with xmodmap (if you're running X11, of course) > and that should be independent of the desktop environment. I've used a combination of xmodmap and WM options, but I'd really like an option to do it at the tty console level... > Dianne. slainte mhath, RGB -- Richard Guy Briggs -- ~\-- ~\ -- \___ o \@ @ Ride yer bike! Ottawa, ON, CANADA -- Lo_>__M__\\/\%__\\/\% Vote! -- _GTVS6#790__(*)__(*)(*)(*)_ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On 2021-07-15 12:25 p.m., Michael P. Soulier wrote: I don't rely on the desktop for the caps-lock remapping. I remap my windows key as a meta key.
Re: Desktop settings (was Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan)
On Thu, 15 Jul 2021, Dianne Skoll wrote: On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 11:54:22 -0400 Richard Guy Briggs wrote: The two things I must have are "focus follows mouse" Preach! Click-to-focus is an abomination! I do use a window manager. But 99% of the time I want my window full-screen (with or without a title bar) because that's what I am focussing on and I want to see as much as possible of it. Alt-tab to change focus works for me. Or shift-tab to change terminal screens. What's a "mouse"? :-) To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On 2021-07-15 11:54 a.m., Richard Guy Briggs wrote: I've been using the lxde (or xfce4) desktop installs for fedora (well, all my GUIs including Debian). I don't like Gnome or KDE. The two things I must have are "focus follows mouse" and a control key where the caps-lock key is frequently found to the left of the "a". They have been somewhat hard to find at times, but I've managed. I don't rely on the desktop for the caps-lock remapping. msoulier@merlin:~$ grep setxkbmap .xsession setxkbmap -option ctrl:nocaps I've mostly been using i3 for a window manager lately, although for graphical file management I do like pcmanfm. I sometimes manage files with ranger but I need to invest more time in it to make it useful. For my kids I tend to install Ubuntu LTS with Gnome as it's more familiar to them. For myself I currently have Debian on an old 2012 Mac Mini. As they've moved away from Intel I guess I won't be able to do that anymore, but that's ok. I won't be buying their hardware anymore. Failed experiment. Mike To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On 21/07/15, Rick Leir wrote: > On July 15, 2021 9:15:45 a.m. EDT, Richard Guy Briggs > wrote: > > and fedora on $work laptop and am > >satisfied running it also on the laptops of the other three family > >members. > > I find Fedora interesting because I learn about some of the best new ideas > via my Fedora server. > > For a laptop there are several window managers available (Cinnamon etc.) and > I did not like the standard desktop config when I tried it a while ago. What > desktop do you prefer to run on laptops? I've been using the lxde (or xfce4) desktop installs for fedora (well, all my GUIs including Debian). I don't like Gnome or KDE. The two things I must have are "focus follows mouse" and a control key where the caps-lock key is frequently found to the left of the "a". They have been somewhat hard to find at times, but I've managed. slainte mhath, RGB -- Richard Guy Briggs -- ~\-- ~\ -- \___ o \@ @ Ride yer bike! Ottawa, ON, CANADA -- Lo_>__M__\\/\%__\\/\% Vote! -- _GTVS6#790__(*)__(*)(*)(*)_ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: Database choice (Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan)
On 2021-07-15 9:20 a.m., Richard Guy Briggs wrote: On 21/07/14, Dianne Skoll wrote: On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:56:33 -0400 fz wrote: Database: maria is super solid and feature packed. Sure, if you don't care about data validation or standards-conformance. I'd recommend PostgreSQL over MySql/MariaDB any day of the week. I'm not an active database developer or user but on this one I have a very strong opinion in favour of postgres. As always, fitness to your application (should in most rational cases) be dictated by your use case and requirements. You are quite correct to point out the robust standards compliance of PostgreSQL, and many other features in it's favour. A quick google of mariadb vs postgresql give a good overview of the differences. I do not support true mission critical type of applications at this time, mostly... ... wordpress... :-( ... and therefore I have been using MariaDB for some time. I do think it offers substantial value, is highly reliable for that type of light duty application, and has a large and active development and support community, in it's favour. However, if you are really really running some mission critical application, that someone else is paying real money for, or you require additional advanced features, then you may want/have to pay $$$ for Oracle database. Yikes, Oracle... ugh... another reason to use PostgreSQL. Totally agree. I second that. I know of 1 very solid private Canadian company with international operations and thousands of employees that runs it's mission critical applications on PostgreSQL. If their application is down, they have to pay substantial $$$ penalties to their clients. For me, that is a stong endorsement of PostgreSQL vs Oracle. as a postscript, I think it's fair to say reliance on database software is the strongest case of vendor lock in you can have. Once you up an running with BrandX DBMS, especially if you become dependent on proprietary extensions, you're wed to that company for life = $ Cost of data conversion, and the ripple effect it may have on your code?... management will opt to pay the $ 100% of the time, in my experience, simply because conversion costs more $$. Choose carefully! Dianne. slainte mhath, RGB -- Richard Guy Briggs -- ~\-- ~\ -- \___ o \@ @ Ride yer bike! Ottawa, ON, CANADA -- Lo_>__M__\\/\%__\\/\% Vote! -- _GTVS6#790__(*)__(*)(*)(*)_ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On July 15, 2021 9:15:45 a.m. EDT, Richard Guy Briggs wrote: > and fedora on $work laptop and am >satisfied running it also on the laptops of the other three family >members. I find Fedora interesting because I learn about some of the best new ideas via my Fedora server. For a laptop there are several window managers available (Cinnamon etc.) and I did not like the standard desktop config when I tried it a while ago. What desktop do you prefer to run on laptops? -- To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On 21/07/14, Ian! D. Allen wrote: > On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 03:01:25PM -0400, Dianne Skoll wrote: > > There is a live-patching facility. I believe Canonical makes it > > available to paying customers. > > And to non-paying customers, but only for three machines: > > https://ubuntu.com/security/livepatch > > "Free for personal use: All you need is an Ubuntu One account. Free for 3 > machines." Well, so does SuSE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYRlTISvjww > | Ian! D. Allen, BA, MMath - idal...@idallen.ca - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada slainte mhath, RGB -- Richard Guy Briggs -- ~\-- ~\ -- \___ o \@ @ Ride yer bike! Ottawa, ON, CANADA -- Lo_>__M__\\/\%__\\/\% Vote! -- _GTVS6#790__(*)__(*)(*)(*)_ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: Database choice (Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan)
On 21/07/14, Dianne Skoll wrote: > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:56:33 -0400 > fz wrote: > > Database: maria is super solid and feature packed. > > Sure, if you don't care about data validation or standards-conformance. > I'd recommend PostgreSQL over MySql/MariaDB any day of the week. I'm not an active database developer or user but on this one I have a very strong opinion in favour of postgres. > > However, if you are really really running some mission critical > > application, that someone else is paying real money for, or you > > require additional advanced features, then you may want/have to pay > > $$$ for Oracle database. > > Yikes, Oracle... ugh... another reason to use PostgreSQL. Totally agree. > Dianne. slainte mhath, RGB -- Richard Guy Briggs -- ~\-- ~\ -- \___ o \@ @ Ride yer bike! Ottawa, ON, CANADA -- Lo_>__M__\\/\%__\\/\% Vote! -- _GTVS6#790__(*)__(*)(*)(*)_ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On 21/07/14, fz wrote: > I'm not sure what you think you're getting with the listed distros that > you wouldn't get with either Debian or Devuan. In terms of nearly zero > (five-nines/9) uptime, they are all equivalent, given that they are > configured similarly. Also, I barely see the benefits of using > opensource if you're using Redhat (IBM) or derivatives, or Oracle, two > of the worst serial offenders of vendor lock-in. IBM invented it. (side > note: I rebooted one of my laptops, the browser was a bit sluggish. It > had been up for 101 days, that one has Ubuntu20 on it. As much as I've > moved away from Ubuntu, that's a decent amount of uptime without any > issues, ie. quite reliable, imo. Also, I have several servers in the > cloud running ubuntu20 and their uptime is comparable. I only reboot for > convenience while testing.) I used to run Ubuntu on multiple laptops and desktops. I won't touch it anymore since they managed to break things on two reasonably standard desktop hardware a decade ago where Debian didn't even blink, and, I don't trust Shuttleworth. ... > Oracle? look what they did to ... everything they touch. Rocky V1. You > want V1 for a production datacentre? Ubuntu? A fatter slower version of > Debian. Can't see any advantage whatsoever to Ubuntu. Redhat is IBM. RedHat is still independent of IBM. I'll let you know when that changes since I actually work there. The CentOS hot mess was an internal job that started in 2014 long before IBM had any influence. I run RHEL on $work workstation, and fedora on $work laptop and am satisfied running it also on the laptops of the other three family members. > They already ruined it with proprietary ways of doing everything. They haven't touched it. I agree IBM has a track record of ruining many things, but so far they seem to have managed to keep their hands off this one. > Imo, Debian is your worst case scenario. Which is not too bad. It is > arguably THE root distro, it is known for stability and has all userland > software. I'm still going to say if you're not straying much from the > LEMP stack, then Devuan is your best choice. I'm still on Debian but am seriously considering moving to Devuan due to systemd. I run stable on personal servers and testing on desktop. > because: > > least amount of moving parts ... compare output of ps aux to any other > distro > > no vendor lock-in... it's Debian, same userland, with a lighter init system > > stability: its Debian. > > > Interested to hear any counterarguments. Usually, your/my choices has to > do with what you already know ( and therefore) like, and I'm completely > guilty of this,and what will take the least amount of your effort to get > off the ground. So I'm guessing you'll go with . hmmm Rocky. :-) There are a number of options for RHEL for community and development now, but if none of those scenarios fits, then Rocky. > On 2021-07-14 12:25 p.m., Alan McKay wrote: > > Just to circle back - not sure if any of those are alternatives to > > CentOS that would be considered Enterprise Grade > > > > What would I choose for a zero-downtime production datacenter and why? > > > > And why is CentOS stream no longer Enterprise Grade? > > > > I'll leave those questions floating for a bit before I provide my own > > answers. > > > > For me the alternatives are : > > - RHEL > > - Oracle > > - Rocky > > - Alma (I think I have that right) > > - Ubuntu > > > > and I think that's it slainte mhath, RGB -- Richard Guy Briggs -- ~\-- ~\ -- \___ o \@ @ Ride yer bike! Ottawa, ON, CANADA -- Lo_>__M__\\/\%__\\/\% Vote! -- _GTVS6#790__(*)__(*)(*)(*)_ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:54:57 -0400 Alan McKay wrote: > H what did I miss? I thought kernel patches needed a reboot? There is a live-patching facility. I believe Canonical makes it available to paying customers. https://ubuntu.com/security/livepatch Regards, Dianne. To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Database choice (Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan)
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:56:33 -0400 fz wrote: [...] > Database: maria is super solid and feature packed. Sure, if you don't care about data validation or standards-conformance. I'd recommend PostgreSQL over MySql/MariaDB any day of the week. Flame away! :) :) > However, if you are really really running some mission critical > application, that someone else is paying real money for, or you > require additional advanced features, then you may want/have to pay > $$$ for Oracle database. Yikes, Oracle... ugh... another reason to use PostgreSQL. Regards, Dianne. To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
"Enterprise Grade" (was Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan)
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 12:25:56 -0400 Alan McKay wrote: > Just to circle back - not sure if any of those are alternatives to > CentOS that would be considered Enterprise Grade Other than a buzzwordy phrase, what exactly does "Enterprise Grade" mean? And how is Ubuntu any more enterprise-grade than Debian? Regards, Dianne. To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 03:01:25PM -0400, Dianne Skoll wrote: > There is a live-patching facility. I believe Canonical makes it > available to paying customers. And to non-paying customers, but only for three machines: https://ubuntu.com/security/livepatch "Free for personal use: All you need is an Ubuntu One account. Free for 3 machines." -- | Ian! D. Allen, BA, MMath - idal...@idallen.ca - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Home: www.idallen.com Contact Improvisation Dance: www.contactimprov.ca | Former college professor (Free/Libre GNU+Linux) at: teaching.idallen.com | Defend digital freedom: http://eff.org/ and have fun: http://fools.ca/ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
> If the machines are hidden internally Ah OK got it! To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 02:54:57PM -0400, Alan McKay wrote: > H what did I miss? I thought kernel patches needed a reboot? You didn't miss anything. If your machine is running software with patches available, yes, those patches will need a reboot. If the machines are hidden internally and running software from 2010 with no patches available, they just stay up forever... -- | Ian! D. Allen, BA, MMath - idal...@idallen.ca - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Home: www.idallen.com Contact Improvisation Dance: www.contactimprov.ca | Former college professor (Free/Libre GNU+Linux) at: teaching.idallen.com | Defend digital freedom: http://eff.org/ and have fun: http://fools.ca/ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
> When one doesn't need to do reboots to install updates, > one can be up essentially forever using Linux. H what did I miss? I thought kernel patches needed a reboot? To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
> I'm not sure what you think you're getting with the listed distros that > you wouldn't get with either Debian or Devuan What do you think is the definition of "Enterprise Grade" - hint high uptime is exactly the opposite unless you are running a live-patch OS > opensource if you're using Redhat (IBM) or derivatives, or Oracle, two > of the worst serial offenders of vendor lock-in. That sounds like religious talk - and really should have no place in sound decision making. I already started this thread by stating how much I dislike Oracle, but I'll still consider them if they are the right choice. You are right IBM killed CentOS and that is driving a lot of people away. But why? What did they do? They removed the "Enterprise Grade" from it. But what is that? Well for me there are a couple of major factors in that term: - it should undergo EXTENSIVE QA - so immediately any of the compile-your-own options are gone - it should code-freeze on what was QA'ed and only allow changes into the code in a controlled (and QA'ed) fashion (there goes Fedora, not familiar enough with Debian but guessing they are gone too). This is what RHEL and Ubuntu (LTS) do. It may be great that upstream is adding code every week but if you don't need any of that you are taking a huge risk by allowing it into production. - it should provide important security and stability patches at a priority You are right to look at what is running be default - but that is only by default and most of it can and should be turned off. Anything you don't need or use should be off and ideally not even installed. Every extra package, every extra daemon is a risk. Every change is a risk, so frequent code changes like with Fedora are very risky. Zero downtime datacenter does not mean high uptime on individual VMs. Patching needs to be done at very least monthly but not will-nilly. As mentioned, new features for the sake of new features (that you don't need) are risky. There is even a strong argument not to have high uptime from the point of view of ensuring everything comes up correctly when a reboot does occur. Did someone make a tweak they forgot to make permanent? Yes vendor lock-in can be an issue. But realistically most Linux distros are interchangable with each other. And most Red Hat based distros are interchangable almost seamlessly with little to no work in the supporting orchestration code. High uptime means no patching (unless running a live patch OS like Oracle) No patching is extremely risky. Anyway just my thoughts. Still going to take a very close look at Oracle. To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 01:56:33PM -0400, fz wrote: > I'm not sure what you think you're getting with the listed distros that > you wouldn't get with either Debian or Devuan. In terms of nearly zero > (five-nines/9) uptime, they are all equivalent, given that they > are configured similarly. I think you meant to remove the word "zero" from the above uptime sentence, or perhaps change "uptime" to "zero downtime". > (side note: I rebooted one of my laptops, the browser was a bit > sluggish. It had been up for 101 days, that one has Ubuntu20 on > it. As much as I've moved away from Ubuntu, that's a decent amount > of uptime without any issues, ie. quite reliable, imo. Also, I have > several servers in the cloud running ubuntu20 and their uptime is > comparable. I only reboot for convenience while testing.) I know two internal machines serving files with these uptime numbers: $ date Wed Jul 14 14:14:28 EDT 2021 $ uptime 14:14:29 up 746 days, 21:37, 1 user, load average: 0.09, 0.08, 0.01 $ lsb_release -a Distributor ID: Ubuntu Description:Ubuntu 10.04.4 LTS Release:10.04 Codename: lucid When one doesn't need to do reboots to install updates, one can be up essentially forever using Linux. -- | Ian! D. Allen, BA, MMath - idal...@idallen.ca - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Home: www.idallen.com Contact Improvisation Dance: www.contactimprov.ca | Former college professor (Free/Libre GNU+Linux) at: teaching.idallen.com | Defend digital freedom: http://eff.org/ and have fun: http://fools.ca/ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
I'm not sure what you think you're getting with the listed distros that you wouldn't get with either Debian or Devuan. In terms of nearly zero (five-nines/9) uptime, they are all equivalent, given that they are configured similarly. Also, I barely see the benefits of using opensource if you're using Redhat (IBM) or derivatives, or Oracle, two of the worst serial offenders of vendor lock-in. IBM invented it. (side note: I rebooted one of my laptops, the browser was a bit sluggish. It had been up for 101 days, that one has Ubuntu20 on it. As much as I've moved away from Ubuntu, that's a decent amount of uptime without any issues, ie. quite reliable, imo. Also, I have several servers in the cloud running ubuntu20 and their uptime is comparable. I only reboot for convenience while testing.) Your dependence on your customer's legacy data and software environment, are likely the motivators of your decision making. The discussion is over right here if your customer has firm requirements for compatibility/continuity. I'd ask you what is the core application you are providing? I'm going to make the assumption that virtually all industrial strength applications these days are a webserver/database. In which case I would be focused on the requirements for the database server primarily, and then of course the webserver. So backward data or software compatibility could drive your decision. Also cost may be a factor, but if you're looking at Centos/Rocky, I'm presuming that you don't want to buy/pay for. Database: maria is super solid and feature packed. You'd have to do some research, but you could throw any amount of compute cycles at it for cheap at Racknerds.com. You could scale that up quite a ways before hitting any serious bottlenecks. Considerations: how volatile is the data? ie. are you doing real transactions, read/write/delete, or are you just serving WordPress? Even WordPress with e-commerce will run on maria just fine. However, if you are really really running some mission critical application, that someone else is paying real money for, or you require additional advanced features, then you may want/have to pay $$$ for Oracle database. Webserver: I'm not an expert in this area. I dumped Apache years ago in favour of Nginx. I don't think there is any reasonable argument to use Apache anymore except for compatibility to legacy data/systems. Nginx is superior in every way. faster... much faster. Less moving parts. Still alot of moving parts, but so much less than Apache. Learning curve is not insignificant, but completely worth it, IMHO. Some people say Tomcat is good. I don't know anything beyond that. Oracle? look what they did to ... everything they touch. Rocky V1. You want V1 for a production datacentre? Ubuntu? A fatter slower version of Debian. Can't see any advantage whatsoever to Ubuntu. Redhat is IBM. They already ruined it with proprietary ways of doing everything. Imo, Debian is your worst case scenario. Which is not too bad. It is arguably THE root distro, it is known for stability and has all userland software. I'm still going to say if you're not straying much from the LEMP stack, then Devuan is your best choice. because: least amount of moving parts ... compare output of ps aux to any other distro no vendor lock-in... it's Debian, same userland, with a lighter init system stability: its Debian. Interested to hear any counterarguments. Usually, your/my choices has to do with what you already know ( and therefore) like, and I'm completely guilty of this,and what will take the least amount of your effort to get off the ground. So I'm guessing you'll go with . hmmm Rocky. :-) On 2021-07-14 12:25 p.m., Alan McKay wrote: Just to circle back - not sure if any of those are alternatives to CentOS that would be considered Enterprise Grade What would I choose for a zero-downtime production datacenter and why? And why is CentOS stream no longer Enterprise Grade? I'll leave those questions floating for a bit before I provide my own answers. For me the alternatives are : - RHEL - Oracle - Rocky - Alma (I think I have that right) - Ubuntu and I think that's it To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
Quoting "Michael P. Soulier" : On 2021-07-14 11:16 a.m., fz wrote: I recently climbed out from under systemd and have found Devuan to be the current sweet spot for people who like autonomy, Debian without systemd. Tempting considering the horrible over-engineering that went into systemd. I swear the KISS principle was lost of them. i like to describe systemd as the "red weed" of open source. please don't make me have to explain that. rday To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On 2021-07-14 12:18 p.m., Tug Williams wrote: As does Gentoo. It provides profiles with and without systemd. Your choice. I have better things to do than compile all day. :) ArchLinux is tempting too, depending on my inner control freak. Mike To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
On 2021-07-14 11:16 a.m., fz wrote: I recently climbed out from under systemd and have found Devuan to be the current sweet spot for people who like autonomy, Debian without systemd. Tempting considering the horrible over-engineering that went into systemd. I swear the KISS principle was lost of them. Mike To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
Just to circle back - not sure if any of those are alternatives to CentOS that would be considered Enterprise Grade What would I choose for a zero-downtime production datacenter and why? And why is CentOS stream no longer Enterprise Grade? I'll leave those questions floating for a bit before I provide my own answers. For me the alternatives are : - RHEL - Oracle - Rocky - Alma (I think I have that right) - Ubuntu and I think that's it To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
As does Gentoo. It provides profiles with and without systemd. Your choice. On 14/07/2021 11:21, J C Nash wrote: FWIW, I MX/Antix also avoid systemd. MX Linux ships with systemd present but disabled by default. The MX Linux team strongly urges users to remain with this configuration which uses sysvinit instead. This page simply provides information for those interested in the question. JN On 2021-07-14 11:16 a.m., fz wrote: Hey, I'm a serial lurker on OCLUG or whatever it's called these days. I recently climbed out from under systemd and have found Devuan to be the current sweet spot for people who like autonomy, yet have access to the large GNU ecosystem. I'm talking server side, but I know a guy running it on the desktop too. It's basically Debian, without systemd. (install Debian, then run a few scripts, found on the Devuan.org website, which rip out systemd and put in eudev. Then point to the Devuan repositories and install whatever). I used to run Ubuntu everywhere/desktop/server, I'm an applications programmer, but then for various reasons got my fingers into more system level activities and realized the hot mess of systemd was blocking me, and nearly incomprehensible, closely followed by all the rest of the commercialization of Ubuntu. So I moved to Debian, then on my friend's suggestion tried Devuan, to find it highly compatible, but I still had my hands on the steering wheel to do what I wanted. Currently I'm configuring a webserver with nginx/maria/php etc all the open/non proprietary stuff on Devuan in the cloud (digital ocean) and ... it works. Just compare a list of running services on whatever you're using to Devuan, and draw your own conclusions. Imho, you get all the benefits without all the strings attached of the big players deciding what you need and how you should use it. I've used CentOS before to setup an IBM qRadar installation, and ... it was nightmarish, just like all things IBM. Again, IMHO, if you don't really NEED the compatibility to, who knows what, your clients, or your own legacy data/systems, why would you want all the bloat and worse, the uncertainty that IBM, Poettering, or others just decide to go a new horrible commercial way next year? Gnome 3 anyone? Did anyone really want systemd? It's happening a lot lately. On 2021-07-14 10:49 a.m., Michael P. Soulier wrote: Debian works fine for me. :) Mike On 2021-07-14 10:19 a.m., Alan McKay wrote: Picking up this old thread ... was just looking at a bunch of things and as much as I dislike Oracle (and what they did to Sun) I have to say this is a pretty compelling story for anyone looking for an alternative to CentOS now that "Stream" has been announced https://linux.oracle.com/switch/centos/ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
FWIW, I MX/Antix also avoid systemd. > MX Linux ships with systemd present but disabled by default. The MX Linux > team strongly urges users to remain with this configuration which uses > sysvinit instead. This page simply provides information for those interested > in the question. JN On 2021-07-14 11:16 a.m., fz wrote: > Hey, I'm a serial lurker on OCLUG or whatever it's called these days. > > I recently climbed out from under systemd and have found Devuan to be the > current sweet spot for people who like > autonomy, yet have access to the large GNU ecosystem. I'm talking server > side, but I know a guy running it on the > desktop too. It's basically Debian, without systemd. (install Debian, then > run a few scripts, found on the Devuan.org > website, which rip out systemd and put in eudev. Then point to the Devuan > repositories and install whatever). > > I used to run Ubuntu everywhere/desktop/server, I'm an applications > programmer, but then for various reasons got my > fingers into more system level activities and realized the hot mess of > systemd was blocking me, and nearly > incomprehensible, closely followed by all the rest of the commercialization > of Ubuntu. So I moved to Debian, then on my > friend's suggestion tried Devuan, to find it highly compatible, but I still > had my hands on the steering wheel to do > what I wanted. > > Currently I'm configuring a webserver with nginx/maria/php etc all the > open/non proprietary stuff on Devuan in the cloud > (digital ocean) and ... it works. Just compare a list of running services on > whatever you're using to Devuan, and draw > your own conclusions. > > Imho, you get all the benefits without all the strings attached of the big > players deciding what you need and how you > should use it. I've used CentOS before to setup an IBM qRadar installation, > and ... it was nightmarish, just like all > things IBM. Again, IMHO, if you don't really NEED the compatibility to, who > knows what, your clients, or your own legacy > data/systems, why would you want all the bloat and worse, the uncertainty > that IBM, Poettering, or others just decide to > go a new horrible commercial way next year? Gnome 3 anyone? Did anyone really > want systemd? > > It's happening a lot lately. > > > On 2021-07-14 10:49 a.m., Michael P. Soulier wrote: >> Debian works fine for me. :) >> >> Mike >> >> On 2021-07-14 10:19 a.m., Alan McKay wrote: >>> Picking up this old thread ... was just looking at a bunch of things >>> and as much as I dislike Oracle (and what they did to Sun) I have to >>> say this is a pretty compelling story for anyone looking for an >>> alternative to CentOS now that "Stream" has been announced >>> >>> https://linux.oracle.com/switch/centos/ >>> >>> >> >> To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org >> To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org >> To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org >> > > To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org > To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org > To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org > To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
Re: [linux] CentOS alternatives: Devuan
Hey, I'm a serial lurker on OCLUG or whatever it's called these days. I recently climbed out from under systemd and have found Devuan to be the current sweet spot for people who like autonomy, yet have access to the large GNU ecosystem. I'm talking server side, but I know a guy running it on the desktop too. It's basically Debian, without systemd. (install Debian, then run a few scripts, found on the Devuan.org website, which rip out systemd and put in eudev. Then point to the Devuan repositories and install whatever). I used to run Ubuntu everywhere/desktop/server, I'm an applications programmer, but then for various reasons got my fingers into more system level activities and realized the hot mess of systemd was blocking me, and nearly incomprehensible, closely followed by all the rest of the commercialization of Ubuntu. So I moved to Debian, then on my friend's suggestion tried Devuan, to find it highly compatible, but I still had my hands on the steering wheel to do what I wanted. Currently I'm configuring a webserver with nginx/maria/php etc all the open/non proprietary stuff on Devuan in the cloud (digital ocean) and ... it works. Just compare a list of running services on whatever you're using to Devuan, and draw your own conclusions. Imho, you get all the benefits without all the strings attached of the big players deciding what you need and how you should use it. I've used CentOS before to setup an IBM qRadar installation, and ... it was nightmarish, just like all things IBM. Again, IMHO, if you don't really NEED the compatibility to, who knows what, your clients, or your own legacy data/systems, why would you want all the bloat and worse, the uncertainty that IBM, Poettering, or others just decide to go a new horrible commercial way next year? Gnome 3 anyone? Did anyone really want systemd? It's happening a lot lately. On 2021-07-14 10:49 a.m., Michael P. Soulier wrote: Debian works fine for me. :) Mike On 2021-07-14 10:19 a.m., Alan McKay wrote: Picking up this old thread ... was just looking at a bunch of things and as much as I dislike Oracle (and what they did to Sun) I have to say this is a pretty compelling story for anyone looking for an alternative to CentOS now that "Stream" has been announced https://linux.oracle.com/switch/centos/ To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org To unsubscribe send a blank message to linux+unsubscr...@linux-ottawa.org To get help send a blank message to linux+h...@linux-ottawa.org To visit the archives: https://lists.linux-ottawa.org
