Re: Question for Oracle shops
Mrohs, Ray wrote: Some people might see this as dumbing down, but in reality competition calls for a streamlined portable plug-n-play appliance, as opposed to complicated and redundant site-specific exercises. Its also our best shot at getting *supported* read-only shared Linux code. Shared installations are supported today: You can install on a DCSS with xip2fs in Sles8+9, and I think that in the future my execute in place soloution which is in the vanilla kernel tree will also become available on all distributions. On the other hand, doing a shared installation (and maintaining it) requires a skilled system programmer who is willing to dig into this. An appliance-type inflate an forget installation would definitely help. -- Carsten Otte IBM Linux technology center ARCH=s390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
We are running 20 Oracle/Linux VMs across 2 IFLs. The savings with DCSS are not compelling enough with our fairly small number of instances. Larger shops would benefit though. Shared Oracle directories, not supported last time I checked, would be welcomed, but thats a different issue. We gave up on shared /usr because of the complexity involved with patching. As it is, our open systems designers considered every worst-case scenario, hence our images are more bloated than they should be. Our primary goals are simplicity and reliability, and in that regard Oracle and Linux/390 kicks butt. If the appliance images are small enough, sharing wouldn't be a big issue so they can be completely self-contained. Ideally, customers can be OS-agnostic, with just an awareness that Linux is controlling the application, similar to the way Tivo functions at home. As long as there are appropriate hooks (via standardized config) to add user file systems and utilites (backup agents, etc.) it shouldn't matter beyond making sure that whatever is added has the expected support. Similarly for an upgrade or patch, the appliance minidisk would be completely replaced, and the configurator would look for and reapply all user customizations. Maybe put network, swap, and user minidisk/filesystem data in a CMS file to be read at startup. We do something similar to this now. In all cases, the steps would be: DDR restore, configure, go; A hybrid of black-box and custom built server, of sorts. There is so much good stuff out there that should really be coming together. Imagine going to the Oracle website and downloading the latest 10g server appliance DDR image. 8-) Ray Mrohs Energy Information Administration U.S. Department of Energy -Original Message- From: Carsten Otte [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 5:19 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Question for Oracle shops Mrohs, Ray wrote: Some people might see this as dumbing down, but in reality competition calls for a streamlined portable plug-n-play appliance, as opposed to complicated and redundant site-specific exercises. Its also our best shot at getting *supported* read-only shared Linux code. Shared installations are supported today: You can install on a DCSS with xip2fs in Sles8+9, and I think that in the future my execute in place soloution which is in the vanilla kernel tree will also become available on all distributions. On the other hand, doing a shared installation (and maintaining it) requires a skilled system programmer who is willing to dig into this. An appliance-type inflate an forget installation would definitely help. -- Carsten Otte IBM Linux technology center ARCH=s390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
A new approach is needed regarding maintenance of Linux images and product installation in general. I'm a strong proponent of server appliances which are pre-packaged with optimized OS and applications. In this case, SLES9 and Oracle would come on a tape or be downloaded for a simple DDR installation onto one or two minidisks. The user would provide: 1)network configuration 2)swap area(s) 3)user data space. Upgrades would consist of replacing the appliance disk with a newer release. The advantages would be: 1)tremendous disk space savings 2)a standardized installation and maintenance process that people can actually understand and almost guarantees success 3)a good counter-arguement to moving everything to blades. What are the chances of such a thing happening? Ray Mrohs Energy Information Administration U.S. Department of Energy -Original Message- From: Yu Safin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 3:19 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Question for Oracle shops On 10/24/05, Tom Duerbusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just been working on Oracle 10g under SLES9. I have been looking over at the Oracle website on their Discussion Forums. I didn't see anything that was zLinux (i.e. mainframe) specific. So I started doing some searches to see how much discussion there was on zLinux (nothing under installation, except for my post), and I started wondering Where is everyone else getting help in the Oracle-zLinux world? The Linux390 discussion group (here)? The Oracle website? Someplace else? Thanks Tom Duerbusch THD Consulting Tom: It has been a night mare trying to install Oracle 10g under Linux for z-Series. No RPM is available. The java based program to install Oracle uses CPU cycles and memory like they are going out of style. Oracle can't find its modules because it doesn't know about lib64 and so on. It is amazing that we pay for Oracle when MySQL drops in place so easily. The IBM RedBook is vague. In short, now I know why Oracle DBA's are paid so well. have you had any success installing? would you be willing to share your experiences in a how-to? we run SLES 9. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
A new approach is needed regarding maintenance of Linux images and product installation in general. I'm a strong proponent of server appliances which are pre-packaged with optimized OS and applications. I've been promoting this approach for about a year now, and we deliver most of our product in this form now. There's no technical reason why it can't be done this way, but lots of legal hurdles, which are much more expensive to solve. If you have very careful lawyers, you'll need to satisfy them of the provenance of all the code (the problem that IBM has about distributing Linux is related to this). With something like a Linux distribution, this is a big task. Also, you'd have to provide both a RH and a SuSE-derived version for a number of stupid political reasons, which effectively make this 2 separate products, not one. What are the chances of such a thing happening? Technically, it takes approximately a week to produce such a beast, test it, and package it for shipment. Politically, it could take years. If there is interest, I'd be willing to pursue providing the packages to Oracle, or create something custom. We're getting kind of good at this sort of thing...8-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
downloaded for a simple DDR installation I was talking (read: pushing) this with Rob 3.5-4 years ago. We were discussing distribution/cloning strategies for our newly installed Linux on S/390 systems. Unfortunately we didn't get round to doing it. Can't quite remember why... Rod -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
On Wednesday, 11/02/2005 at 09:45 CST, Tom Duerbusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is not only an Oracle problem/concern. Consider what would happen if IBM picks a perferred Linux and bundles it with VM. Replace their TCPIP product with IP running under Linux for one. A real DB2 running under VM (yea) for another. But whoever they choose, will be bad news for the other venders. (I kind of like IBM being neutral on this onso unlike their history.) Replace our revered stack, with its Ancestral origins, one of the Seven Wonders of the Computing World, with a Linux IP stack? Now go wash your mouth out with soap. Twice. ;-) Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
OK, I'll admit that I'm rather stupid. I thought the original poster wanted a self contained appliance that ran Oracle. The concept of an appliance, to me, is no user servicable parts inside, so to speak. So Oracle implements their code using something like Debian. The distro comes with all required Linux users predefined. There should be little or no reason for the user to add new users or run as root for any reason. The fact that the user's company was a SuSE or RedHat shop would not be very relevent to this particular Oracle distributation. The distro would need some customization (like for the Ethernet connection). Or it might be possible to make is smart like Knoppix and have it find the Ethernet. It might even be easier under z/VM since the actual I/O configuration (device addresses) don't matter under z/VM. Just set up the Oracle Linux guest as required by Oracle and IPL. That pretty much leaves assigning the IP address(es) if DCHP is not being used to assign IP addresses. What am I missing? Is there some problem with distributing Debian (or CentOS or ...) with other bundled software? -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer UICI Insurance Center Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its' content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
I thought the original poster wanted a self contained appliance that ran Oracle. The concept of an appliance, to me, is no user servicable parts inside, so to speak. All true. The first problem appears when you start asking questions about backup, or database automation, or system monitoring. Then we're back to the question of ISV support for the appliance OS, and the accompanying whining about what distribution is present. Case in point: If your backup system is TSM, and you use the TSM client on Debian, and you find a problem, IBM support hangs up on you (not literally, but you don't get any help) because Debian isn't in their supported OS list. For play guests, that's OK. For production data guests, that's not acceptable. The fact that the user's company was a SuSE or RedHat shop would not be very relevent to this particular Oracle distributation. See above. It also comes back to the question of training for admins. If you smoke the RH pipe, the system management techniques are different than if you smoke the SuSE pipe. J. Random Admin that is running this stuff from a cookbook gets cranky if it doesn't work like it said in the book forever and ever. Then you get into the discussion of adding disk space, or some other stupid thing, and we're back to separate implementations for the RH and SuSE crowds. It'd be REALLY nice if the various RH versions got with the program wrt configuration management. What am I missing? Is there some problem with distributing Debian (or CentOS or ...) with other bundled software? Not at all. Like I said, it's not a technical problem. It's a human problem. -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
Imagine a PC vendor shipping just one operating system with their PCs :) Linux/390 made a fairly big splash a few years ago. But it seems the community news is languishing, and if you don't make headlines once in a while, you cease to exist in the eyes of business managers. Our project manager said it today: Virtual Linux is cool stuff, or it was. My point is, the product is maturing - we know what works and what doesn't work. The good things should be bundled and put out there so a computer generalist armed with basic knowledge can take it and make it go with minimal effort. At this point we are all diverged with highly customized implementations that basically do the same thing. If we can standardize on minidisk addresses, a configuration interface, and capture 95% commonality of what an Oracle (or any) server should provide, and optimize it, that would be a good thing. The rest of the IT world is focusing on standards, and we should be no different. Some people might see this as dumbing down, but in reality competition calls for a streamlined portable plug-n-play appliance, as opposed to complicated and redundant site-specific exercises. Its also our best shot at getting *supported* read-only shared Linux code. I can see all the pieces out there waiting to be put together, its just a matter of willpower (and yes, legal hurdles). David, see what you started? Ray Mrohs Energy Information Administration U.S. Department of Energy -Original Message- From: Alan Altmark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:17 AM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Question for Oracle shops On Wednesday, 11/02/2005 at 09:45 CST, Tom Duerbusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is not only an Oracle problem/concern. Consider what would happen if IBM picks a perferred Linux and bundles it with VM. Replace their TCPIP product with IP running under Linux for one. A real DB2 running under VM (yea) for another. But whoever they choose, will be bad news for the other venders. (I kind of like IBM being neutral on this onso unlike their history.) Replace our revered stack, with its Ancestral origins, one of the Seven Wonders of the Computing World, with a Linux IP stack? Now go wash your mouth out with soap. Twice. ;-) Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
If we can standardize on minidisk addresses, a configuration interface, and capture 95% commonality of what an Oracle (or any) server should provide, and optimize it, that would be a good thing. Agreed. Been there, done that. I have the toolkit for building such appliances set up, and all the pieces assembled. Somebody now needs to stand up and say they want badly enough to pay something for the effort involved in constructing it. If anyone seriously wants a dedicated Oracle appliance, contact me offlist. It's about a week project to do it. If two people want it and can contribute something to help fund the cost of development, I can get it done PDQ. I can see all the pieces out there waiting to be put together, its just a matter of willpower (and yes, legal hurdles). David, see what you started? Yes. I also see how much good it did me. 8-( Replace our revered stack, with its Ancestral origins, one of the Seven Wonders of the Computing World, with a Linux IP stack? Now go wash your mouth out with soap. Twice. ;-) Then come talk to me about how to get it done. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
On 10/24/05, Tom Duerbusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just been working on Oracle 10g under SLES9. I have been looking over at the Oracle website on their Discussion Forums. I didn't see anything that was zLinux (i.e. mainframe) specific. So I started doing some searches to see how much discussion there was on zLinux (nothing under installation, except for my post), and I started wondering Where is everyone else getting help in the Oracle-zLinux world? The Linux390 discussion group (here)? The Oracle website? Someplace else? Thanks Tom Duerbusch THD Consulting Tom: It has been a night mare trying to install Oracle 10g under Linux for z-Series. No RPM is available. The java based program to install Oracle uses CPU cycles and memory like they are going out of style. Oracle can't find its modules because it doesn't know about lib64 and so on. It is amazing that we pay for Oracle when MySQL drops in place so easily. The IBM RedBook is vague. In short, now I know why Oracle DBA's are paid so well. have you had any success installing? would you be willing to share your experiences in a how-to? we run SLES 9. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
Eventually, I will have everything documented... I'm to a point where I may or may not have made changes, in sufficient quantity, that I may no longer have a system, that I know. Sounds confusing. But is about time to format over and reinstall. This time, taking the proper options and having Linux also setup properly. I will be generating a series of single pack, 3390-9 Oracle systems for testing. Both application, communications, DBA and what-not testing. I don't mind the java stuff for installs, as long as the java code is minimum during operation. Yep, RPMs would be nice, but I don't see too much difference in resources between an Oracle install and SLES9 install (using Yast). In both cases, on my system, it now takes about 20 minutes each. that is for SUSE9, from the IPL 00C to a finished system, and on Oracle side, from runInstaller, to bringing up the web browser. But it is comming along... Tom Duerbusch THD Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/01/05 2:19 PM On 10/24/05, Tom Duerbusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just been working on Oracle 10g under SLES9. I have been looking over at the Oracle website on their Discussion Forums. I didn't see anything that was zLinux (i.e. mainframe) specific. So I started doing some searches to see how much discussion there was on zLinux (nothing under installation, except for my post), and I started wondering Where is everyone else getting help in the Oracle-zLinux world? The Linux390 discussion group (here)? The Oracle website? Someplace else? Thanks Tom Duerbusch THD Consulting Tom: It has been a night mare trying to install Oracle 10g under Linux for z-Series. No RPM is available. The java based program to install Oracle uses CPU cycles and memory like they are going out of style. Oracle can't find its modules because it doesn't know about lib64 and so on. It is amazing that we pay for Oracle when MySQL drops in place so easily. The IBM RedBook is vague. In short, now I know why Oracle DBA's are paid so well. have you had any success installing? would you be willing to share your experiences in a how-to? we run SLES 9. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: Question for Oracle shops
At Share I heard things like there had been thousands of downloads but maybe 250 shops running production. We're one. But it doesn't mean we run a lot. We have 2 database servers. We only can give servers to non-mainframe-phobic customers. We're still running Oracle 9.2i under SLES8. The ISV vendor for the application has not yet certified for Oracle 10g. But I will say that Oracle seems to be very pro linux and they also are not anti-mainframe, unlike some vendors where the zseries version of their product lags behind or never materializes. -Original Message- From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 4:18 PM To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Question for Oracle shops Just been working on Oracle 10g under SLES9. I have been looking over at the Oracle website on their Discussion Forums. I didn't see anything that was zLinux (i.e. mainframe) specific. So I started doing some searches to see how much discussion there was on zLinux (nothing under installation, except for my post), and I started wondering Where is everyone else getting help in the Oracle-zLinux world? The Linux390 discussion group (here)? The Oracle website? Someplace else? Thanks Tom Duerbusch THD Consulting -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 * This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this communication and destroy all copies. * -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
