Linux-Advocacy Digest #453
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453, Volume #31 Sun, 14 Jan 01 14:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance ("Chad Myers")
Re: OS-X GUI on Linux? (Bones)
Re: Linux Mandrake 7.2 and the banana peel (Bones)
Re: Open Source security holes (Bones)
Re: Linux Mandrake 7.2 and the banana peel (Bones)
Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance (Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?=)
Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance (Gary Hallock)
Re: OS-X GUI on Linux? ("Mike")
Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance (Karri Kalpio)
Re: Linux IDE RAID Cards (Chris Lopeman)
Re: OS-X GUI on Linux? (Chris Lee)
Re: Red hat becoming illegal? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Didn't the Gartner group say don't move to W2K straight away
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: OS-X GUI on Linux? (Chris Lee)
Re: Windows Stability ("Nik Simpson")
Re: KDE Hell (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Linux is crude and inconsistant. (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Linux is INFERIOR to Windows (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Linux Mandrake 7.2 and the banana peel ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: OS-X GUI on Linux? (mlw)
Re: One case where Linux has the edge (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: I am trying Linux out for the first time. (Bob Hauck)
Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance (Bob Hauck)
From: "Chad Myers" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:11:38 GMT
"Gary Hallock" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
Chad Myers wrote:
"J Sloan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
Chad Myers wrote:
Ok, what is khttpd then?
an experimental kernel based web server
So it's a kernel based web server, that's exactly what I was talking about.
That's khttp, not Tux.
Please post a URL of the specweb 99 results. The results I recall
reading only had WinNT/IIS, Linux/Apache, and Linux/Tux.
I don't know of any specweb results for khttpd.
sigh
You just said that kttpd kicked IIS's ass in specweb99, so please admit
you were wrong, or show me the results.
No, Tux kicked IIS's ass in specweb99. khttpd is a totally different program.
As far as I know there are no specweb results for khttpd.
Microsoft wouldn't write a hack httpd just to win a single
benchmark and then claim they're the best web server around.
In the first place, Red Hat never claimed tux was the best
around - they let the figures speak for themselves.
In the second place, it was not a "hack httpd", but a clever
and innovative web server, and a showcase for the scalability
of the Linux kernel.
In a benchmark... real stable. In real world? Just like everything
else linux: FLOP.
You should really read up on Tux. You seem to think thay khttpd and Tux and
the
same thing. They are totally different programs.
I'm operating under facts I heard in a debate not unlike this one several weeks
back. I was under the impression (from what individuals in your situation were
telling me) that Tux has a kernel component, or can operate in kernel mode.
It was this mode that was used in the SpecWeb results to obtain the high numbers
they achieved.
-Chad
--
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bones)
Subject: Re: OS-X GUI on Linux?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:54:54 GMT
In article JTf86.33$[EMAIL PROTECTED], Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
"J Sloan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
Something like Quartz could be substituted for the X11
based system without much trouble.
You're crazy. All existing GUI apps would not work with Quartz because the
existing apps use sockets to connect to the GUI.
Not necessarily. It's quite easy to run apps built against one window
manager's ( or "desktop environment's") API inside another wm by just having
the correct libraries installed. For example, I have no trouble running
something like GnoRPM under FVWM2 as long as the Gnome libraries are
installed.
I also see in this thread that someone mentioned that Quartz was build on
top of X. Assuming that this is true (I know very little about Quartz), then
this whole discussion is irrelevant, since Quartz would *not* be a
replacement for X, it would be just another wm. Of course it could be a
heavily modified version of X underneath...
Bones
--
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bones)
Subject: Re: Linux Mandrake 7.2 and the banana peel
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:54:55 GMT
In article c8T76.31618$[EMAIL PROTECTED], Pete Goodwin wrote:
I removed the 2GByte disk as a museum piece.
LOL. I won't even mention the sizes of the two hard disks in my system.
Perhaps they have some value on the antiques circuit; if you watch PBS, you
might see me having them appraised on that
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453, Volume #30 Sun, 26 Nov 00 20:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: C++ is very alive! ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: KDE2 (A transfinite number of monkeys)
Re: Of course, there is a down side... ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: C++ -- Our Industry... (mlw)
Re: Mandrake 7.2 and KDE2 - Congrats ! ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: C++ is very alive!
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:11:15 -0500
Bob Hauck wrote:
On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:57:28 GMT, Charlie Ebert
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Bob Hauck wrote:
On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:37:43 -0500, mlw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I agree that anyone calling themselves a "software engineer" ought to
score pretty high on your little quiz. However, I don't agree at all
with the implication that "real engineers use C++".
I kind of got the impression he was saying the software engineer title
belonged to Kernel developers and the such. You'd play hell writing
a kernel in java I think.
Kernel developers, at least Linux and BSD kernel developers, use C not
C++. Anyway, I hope he wasn't limiting "software engineer" to kernel
developers, since they are but a tiny minority of the people developing
software and not everybody doing databases or web sites is a dumbass.
No, I don't want to write a kernel in Java, but then I also don't want
to write web applets in C++. This just outlines my point about using
the right tool for the job.
Aww, come-on.
Web applets should be written in microcode for a virtual cpu engine
which is written in Java. Anything less than that is just laziness :-)
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
--
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (A transfinite number of monkeys)
Subject: Re: KDE2
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:14:14 GMT
On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:06:24 -0800, matt newell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: I meant a gtk+ theme.
Actually, I just read about it today.. There will be "GNOME Themes" after
all.. Helixcode is hosting a project called "metathemes", the goal of which
is to provide a united theming interface for Gtk+, Sawfish ( other WMs if
the plugins get written), Xmms, and there are rumblings about doing it
Mozilla too. There's an alpha out that I haven't tried yet, but have
heard very positive things about.
: Claiming that writing programs in C++ because the ABI is just now becoming
: mature is counterproductive. If people only used languages that had mature
: compilers there would never be any new languages and we would still be doing
: systems programming in asm.
It's not just the ABI. C++ is a moving target. There is no stable, released
version of a C++ compiler on Linux that has a good STL implementation.
: No, Corba proved to be to big and slow for embedable components, so the came
: up with kparts. I don't know what you mean network transparency for objects?
: When would you open a document using a part that is not on your own computer.
: This seems like unusable overkill. If I need a plugin to open s
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453, Volume #29Wed, 4 Oct 00 17:13:08 EDT
Contents:
Re: Migration -- NT costing please :-) (A transfinite number of monkeys)
Re: Corel bailed out by MS? Let the games begin! ("Nigel Feltham")
Re: GPL freedom ("Simon Cooke")
Re: Corel bailed out by MS? Let the games begin! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux? ("Nigel Feltham")
Re: Linux? ("Nigel Feltham")
Re: Corel bailed out by MS? Let the games begin! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux and Free Internet? (Karen Rosin)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Richard)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (junekis)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (A transfinite number of monkeys)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Migration -- NT costing please :-)
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 20:05:36 GMT
On Wed, 04 Oct 2000 12:58:08 GMT,
Chad Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: 1) 2xNT4 or Window 2000 Server licenses to provide RAID1 on both computers.
:
: Windows 2000 professional will do all this.
Don't read those license agreements much, do you? Win2k Pro is not to be
used as a web server platform. You need to buck up at least $800 per
copy for Win2k Server.
: At my current employer I hear the phrase, "The mail server is down again,
: it should be back up after a reboot". The mail server, of course, being
: a Linux mail server. I imagine there will be only a few more of these before
: our management complains that they are missing emails.
Hmm.. Since your "evidence" is anecdotal, I'll counter with an anecdote of
my own. Here's our mail server at work:
[cliff:jcostom](03:57pm)
/home/jcostom$ uptime
3:57pm up 103 days, 7:05, 1 user, load average: 0.33, 0.20, 0.21
The last time it was rebooted was for a kernel upgrade. Before that,
it as up for about 180 days.
A couple of web servers:
(2 large sites, a servlet engine, single P-III/550)
[cipher:jcostom](03:02pm)
/home/jcostom$ uptime
3:02pm up 107 days, 6:55, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
(74 small sites, a servlet engine, single P-III/650)
[deathstar:jcostom](03:42pm)
/home/jcostom$ uptime
3:42pm up 111 days, 59 min, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
A DNS Server:
[fuzzy:jcostom](03:42pm)
/home/jcostom$ uptime
3:42PM up 324 days, 6:54, 1 user, load average: 0.17, 0.11, 0.09
: Or more importantly, who really believes MS can sustain a lower TCO if a
: MS solution is indeed more attractive at this point in time?
:
: Everyone who has deployed an MS solution properly and is reaping the
: benefits.
Like my friends who work at a large insurance company's data center down
the road here (in NJ)? Their standard operating procedure is to reboot
anything running NT or 2000 every Sunday night at 7:00PM. Their bluescreens
have been cut by 2/3 since instituting weekly reboots... They do "wacky"
things like run Compaq Proliants with 100% Compaq-sanctioned hardware,
with all of their "special" Windows installs (to accomodate the Compaq
butchered hardware), and such crazy applications as SQL Server and Exchange.
--
Jason Costomiris| Technologist, geek, human.
jcostom {at} jasons {dot} org | http://www.jasons.org/
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
--
From: "Nigel Feltham" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Corel bailed out by MS? Let the games begin!
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:01:54 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message ...
http://netscape.zdnet.com/framer/hud0022420/www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news
/0,4586,2635894,00.html
claire
I don't suppose this would be an attempt to kill off corel's support of the
wine project would it?
I wouldn't be surprised if VMWARE get buyout offers from microsoft next,
anything to prevent
linux users from being able to run windows applications under other
operating systems.
--
From: "Simon Cooke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: GPL freedom
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:18:16 -0700
"Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:8rftu4$10f$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
| In which case -- why would I write the book in the first place,
| when I can be a short-order cook instead and put bread on the
| table?
To get the name that allows you to make profits on the speaking
engagements. Or because you want to and love doing it. One
advantage of having a huge networked world is that there's bound to
be plenty of people that do things just for the love of doing them.
Like Linux, stories and music might be created the same way, and with
greater quality than those created for sale.
T
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453, Volume #28 Thu, 17 Aug 00 12:13:07 EDT
Contents:
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Chris Wenham)
Re: Notebook/Windows rebate? ("B. Joshua Rosen")
Re: BASIC == Beginners language (Was: Just curious (Donal K. Fellows)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Chris Wenham)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ("JS/PL")
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform (Roberto Alsina)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
From: Chris Wenham [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:06:56 GMT
"T" == T Max Devlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Said Chris Wenham in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
"T" == T Max Devlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[...]
(I've noticed that I "seem" to be saying a lot that I, in fact,
didn't.)
Funny how that works, isn't it? Language is a wonderous thing. The way
you say something, what you choose to say, the things you avoid saying;
all of these are just as important as your words. Of course, a typical
troll tactic is to insist that all else must be ignored, particularly
when it shows that your words are empty, endless attempts at
misdirection and insinuation. I call it "intentional ignorance", and it
is a game I refuse to play.
Oh, am I being too harsh?
I understand the rage in your words, but not the words.
I think most Kitchentop PC buyers have [...]
First you say you're thinking, but then the rest is just you imagining
that you can second-guess the market. I've got no time and less
patience for it, thanks.
It looks like the part you snipped was "...prioritized what they're
willing to spend time learning. Most of them are looking for a vendor
they can trust so that they can just buy their PC, use it out of the
box and spend the rest of their time dealing with higher
priorities."
That's an opinion I infered from observation. I told you what was the
observation. I prefaced the opinions with "I think". And in regards
to the inferences I made, I would also be interested in evidence to
the alternatives.
Chris; the reason the desktop market 'belongs' to Windows and Linux
can't get into it is because Microsoft criminally prevented OEMs from
engaging in a free market.
*sigh*
Proven in a court of law, and all that, and I
don't feel like going over it all on Usenet yet again.
EXCELLENT! I THOUGHT I WAS IN AN ARGUMENT WHICH PUT ALL OF THAT
BEHIND IT!
Lets have a party to celebrate Max's realization: That the monopoly
and how it was enforced is a concept that's _undersood_!
How about we get back to talking about the original subject: How we
can sell more Linux boxes to the Kitchentop market? Huh? How about
that, eh? Here's my suggestion: I think that the presense of
technical support is a /major/ selling factor. AND GUESS WHAT? That's
what I've been talking about for the past six or seven posts! WHAT AN
OBSERVATION!
All the rest of this is just desperate trolling on your part.
No, let me tell you what's desparate: Someone who invents ulterior
motives and attributes them to his opponent because he's trying to
change the subject.
How about you stop trying to find reasons to call me a troll and
start finding reasons to support your argument? Here's a rehash of
mine, as to provide context when you remind us of yours:
In order to sell to the Kitchentop market, technical support must be
included as part of the package. I say this because I've directly
observed first-time home computer buyers and what their behavior
suggests are their primary concerns.
NOTE TO SPECTATORS: This point has nothing to do with Microsoft, its
monopoly, the Trilateral Comission, the Pope or the Queen Mum. It's
point is addressing the prospects of Free Software in a post-monopoly
era that may possibly follow a court ordered remedy.
ADDENDUM TO NOTE: I have never changed the subject to deviate from
this. Not by pretending that the monopoly is anything more than
background to the issue. Not even by calling Max a troll, an idiot, a
silly person or a Republican. The author would APPRECIATE similar
restraint from Mr. Devlin, rather than lobbing around the word
"troll" as if character assasination was now the only thing that
could save his face.
It has nothing
to do with education, tech support, or technology.
It HAD nothing to do with education, tech support or technology. But
now it /can/. If the contracts which forced alternative operating
systems off most PCs have been nulled by the courts, then Free
Software must still have some intrinsic benefits beyond price and the
incarnated expression of free speech.
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453, Volume #27Tue, 4 Jul 00 14:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: So where ARE all of these supposed Linux users? (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Malloy digest, volume 2451729 ("Rich C")
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Another CommyLie-nux Commy expoased! (was: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was:
Linux is awesome!) (phil hunt)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (phil hunt)
Re: Where did all my windows go? (Charlie Ebert)
Re: I thought only Windows 98 SE did this! (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Where did all my windows go? (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Where did all my windows go? (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform (void)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform ("Christopher Smith")
Re: Where did all my windows go? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux code going down hill (Timothy Murphy)
Re: Linux code going down hill (abraxas)
Re: BUFFOON of the YEAR AWARD!!! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
From: Charlie Ebert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: So where ARE all of these supposed Linux users?
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 16:11:29 GMT
"R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" wrote:
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:28:28 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(JEDIDIAH)
wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:46:23 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
They don't have to...
Win2k, even WITHOUT advocating STILL has a far higher market share
than Linsux
...an interesting assertion considering that Microsoft
itself is discouraging it's use as a general purpose
desktop OS.
Whatever. The fact remains that it still has far more marekt share
than Linsux...
Check the scoreboard. Microsoft just announced that they have
sold or given away 3 million copies of Windows 2000 including upgrades.
In the past 12 months.
Red Hat sold 3 million copies,
No boys and girls,,, this is 3.
SuSE sold about 4 million (much of it in Europe).
Now it is 3 + 4 = 7
Caldera is a bit behind at 1 million.
Now it is 7 + 1 = 8
Mandrake sold about 4 million copies (primarily U.S.)
Now it is 8 + 4 = 12
Corel sold about 2 million copies.
Now it is 12 + 2 = 14
Turbo Linux sold about 4 million copies (mostly Asia).
Now it is 14 + 4 = 18
Debian sold about 1/2 million copies.
Now it is .5 + 18 = 18.5 + Rex's missing downloads rounding to at least
19.
Thanks Rex
FreeBSD sold about 1 million copies.
Non Linux but okay.
and OpenBSD sold about 1 million copies.
Ditto.
(though FreeBSD and OpenBSD aren't actually "Linux", they share
the same software application and library base).
This puts Linux at nearly 20 million copies.
And this is a god damn conservative figure Rex.
What about the other 75 some odd linux distributions.
Then we have to factor in the old kodgers who UPGRADE
only when the blue fin turle mates on the north pole
There are still masses of individuals who are still runing the first
version of
slackware.
Let me give you another GOOD one which isn't even included in these
simple statistics.
Compaq, Dell, Gateway, and others sell machines direct.
Their installs are not included in these figures.
Between all of them we have 49,000,000 servers sold in 1999.
On 50 % of their servers you found Linux installed.
And of the desktops Linux still sold around 4-5 million with
the big computer manufacturers.
So if we took 24 million and added them to the 20 million above,
all we have left are the millions of downloads they don't even
account for.
Rex,
Just about everybody in my club downloads new versions of Linux.
People will buy maybe 3 -4 copies of Linux and then not buy anymore
for 2-3 years. They just download.
So we have 44 million sold, and an X number of downloads.
I will say the X is 25 million easy.
This is based on a combination of official sales figures
reported by public companies, and market share claimed
competitors.
The figures may be slightly out of date, and are based on
"hype".
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet
I/T Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 90 million satisfied users worldwide
This figure is simply too low Rex.
There is NO-WAY you will ever convince me that
there is only 90 million Linux users.
If we have already figured 65 million people accessing NEW
software in 1999, then how can we justify the 90 million.
It's a well known statistic that many Linux users are on older
machines and do not want to upgrade
And there are a pile of older machines out there.
Conservatively speaking Rex, I will ball park the Linux
encampment at 150,000,000 users easy.
and growing at over 5%/month!
Even you agree. At 5% a year you can't stay at the same old
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453
Linux-Advocacy Digest #453, Volume #26 Thu, 11 May 00 09:13:05 EDT Contents: Re: German Govt says Microsoft a security risk (mlw) Re: Linux Setup (DeAnn Iwan) Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software (Peter Ammon) Re: Browsers and e-mail (Fredrik Sandstrom) Re: How to properly process e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Re: Microsoft: STAY THE FUCK OFF THE NET!!! ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Re: simply being open source is no guarantee of security. (abraxas) Not so fast... (Jeff Szarka) Re: A pox on the penguin? (Linux Virus Epidemic) (John Culleton) Re: How to properly process e-mail (Seán Ó Donnchadha) From: mlw [EMAIL PROTECTED] Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc Subject: Re: German Govt says Microsoft a security risk Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:58:50 -0400 Salvador Peralta wrote: I don't represent Scientology. You called it frightening, and I am asking what you know about it. As for German government, I believe that they are promoting intolerance in this stance. Their position on M$ has nothing to do with the product, and everything to do with paranoid intolerance of an alternative world view. Given the history of the country, that is one government that I do not like seeing actively promoting intolerance. When you look at what happened in Germany in WWII, you will see a very common human reaction to hard times. Slaughter of who you think is your enemy is quite common. Look what the whites did to the indians of this land. look at what the turks did to the armenians, look at history in general. The german people are no more to blame for there actions than the countless other peoples and nations which have had similar atrocities. Fire up enough people, and one can do historic amounts of evil in the name of god, mother, and/or nation. As for "scientology," who cares? All religions that attempt to bring in recruits are evil. My upbringing is that you find what you believe as you live. I have no right telling anyone what they should believe. Why should I be bombarded by religious zealots telling me I should believe in some hokey 2000 year old religion about some guy who got nailed to a dead tree? Be it an old religion, or a new one, it does not matter. If they attempt to extend their influence, they are dangerous. Human beings are very irrational in their actions when it comes to pleasing a deity through the commands of a religion. True believer's of any religion are, by very definition, irrational. Christopher Browne wrote: Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Salvador Peralta would say: What do you know about Scientology, Chris? Nothing that particularly fits this newsgroup. Do you represent Scientology in some manner? Your approach of subtly implicating that the German government has no right to make any dictums, based on their "intolerance," is a most _wonderful_ way of causing people to associate the present government with that at the time of WWII without ever actually mentioning any of the "key words" that would cause anyone to forcibly conclude a "Godwinning" (or "Godlosing") of the thread. You merely _implied_ some association between the present German government and the Nazis, as opposed to coming out and saying that anti-Scientology legislation indicates that they _are_ Nazis. I'm happy to see the thread end, and don't care to "win" any argument here, so I'll call a spade a spade; you did a _good_ job of implying the current government to be just another fascist government without actually coming out and saying it. Point: Salvador Peralta. My PoV is that it world government, especially the German government, should be tolerant of diversity. What I know of Scientology deals less with religion and religiosity than it does with organizational principles. Government should never actively promote intolerance Never? Ah. So governments should not promote intolerance towards child molestation? They should be tolerant towards wife beating? I think not... It is quite clear that there _are_ things that governments should be _quite_ intolerant about. It seems reasonable for governments to be intolerant about those that commit serious crimes. That's pretty much what "prosecution" is about, namely an indication that the government won't tolerate the crime. Christopher Browne wrote: Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Salvador Peralta would say: Unfortunately, the article had nothing to do with m$ being a security risk from the software standpoint and everything to do with m$ incorporating some of scientology's philosophies into their corporate model. The german government has already given us enough intolerance for the next 2 centuries, IMHO. Let's not appla
