Re: [LAD] twice as loud
Hey, you know that little triangular flap of skin that almost covers the ear, just above the earlobe? Whaddya think if humans are (were?) to evolve that little flap so it can be completely and tightly pressed against the ear (like you can do now with your finger) thus acting as an 'eyelid' for your ear in case things get too loud ? I mean what the heck is it doing there now, eh? Tim. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 03:31 -0400, Tim E. Real wrote: Hey, you know that little triangular flap of skin that almost covers the ear, just above the earlobe? Whaddya think if humans are (were?) to evolve that little flap so it can be completely and tightly pressed against the ear (like you can do now with your finger) thus acting as an 'eyelid' for your ear in case things get too loud ? I mean what the heck is it doing there now, eh? Tim. It's called tragus. We still have it for piercings to increase our attractiveness? So it might be used for conservation of the species? :D Btw. I guess the ears once were gills, at least it's one theory. ;) Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 03:31 -0400, Tim E. Real wrote: Hey, you know that little triangular flap of skin that almost covers the ear, just above the earlobe? Whaddya think if humans are (were?) to evolve that little flap so it can be completely and tightly pressed against the ear (like you can do now with your finger) thus acting as an 'eyelid' for your ear in case things get too loud ? I mean what the heck is it doing there now, eh? Tim. PS: No joke. Take a look at it's direction. It might be there as a wind shield or dirt shield. Perhaps the wiki does know? I've got no time to read it. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 03:31 -0400, Tim E. Real wrote: Hey, you know that little triangular flap of skin that almost covers the ear, just above the earlobe? Whaddya think if humans are (were?) to evolve that little flap so it can be completely and tightly pressed against the ear (like you can do now with your finger) thus acting as an 'eyelid' for your ear in case things get too loud ? I mean what the heck is it doing there now, eh? Tim. I'm asking for forgiveness because it's the second PS :S. How does the external ear exactly work? Perhaps it's part of this function, to reflect sound. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On 07/25/2010 09:31 AM, Tim E. Real wrote: Hey, you know that little triangular flap of skin that almost covers the ear, just above the earlobe? Whaddya think if humans are (were?) to evolve that little flap so it can be completely and tightly pressed against the ear (like you can do now with your finger) thus acting as an 'eyelid' for your ear in case things get too loud ? I mean what the heck is it doing there now, eh? Tim. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev No need for that! I can already cover my ears completely with my earlobes (that's why they're there, right?) But I agree, it would be a little more comfortable... Lieven ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 12:32 +0200, lieven moors wrote: On 07/25/2010 09:31 AM, Tim E. Real wrote: Hey, you know that little triangular flap of skin that almost covers the ear, just above the earlobe? Whaddya think if humans are (were?) to evolve that little flap so it can be completely and tightly pressed against the ear (like you can do now with your finger) thus acting as an 'eyelid' for your ear in case things get too loud ? I mean what the heck is it doing there now, eh? Tim. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev No need for that! I can already cover my ears completely with my earlobes (that's why they're there, right?) But I agree, it would be a little more comfortable... Lieven Just one question. Am I the only one who received a mail similar to this off-list: [ yet more irrelvant mindless crap! ] How does the external ear exactly work? Perhaps it's part of this function, to reflect sound. Absolutely nothing to do with Linux Audio Development Ralf, ... please desist. I sometimes receive mails off-list abusing me for mails other people did wrote. Here I did wrote this mail, but as a reply to this topic. So please, if you don't like me folks, abuse me for stuff that were my crime. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On 07/25/2010 12:43 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Just one question. Am I the only one who received a mail similar to this
off-list:
[ yet more irrelvant mindless crap! ]
How does the external ear exactly work? Perhaps it's part of this
function, to reflect sound.
Absolutely nothing to do with Linux Audio Development Ralf, ... please
desist.
I sometimes receive mails off-list abusing me for mails other people did
wrote.
Here I did wrote this mail, but as a reply to this topic. So please, if
you don't like me folks, abuse me for stuff that were my crime.
Hi Ralph,
Why are you writing to me? It might imply I did send you this email in
the first place. Even though I did not, I concur with the original
author although I'd like to phrase it differently:
Please ask only Linux audio hw/sw development related questions here.
When answering, please stick to your expertise. Stop guessing,
brainstorming and spreading FUD.
Joern formulated this once like this:
/* before sending mail */
if (i_know_what_im_talking_about()) {
send();
} else {
discard();
sleep(3600);
}
Some of your comments or OT discussions would have been better on LAU
(where most of the Devs are subscribed as well). I fail to see how you
are involved in developing any linux-audio application, so please
refrains from posting here.
As you can read on the description at http://linuxaudio.org/mailarchive/
The linux-audio developer (LAD) mailing list is the place to discuss
and share in depth information concerning design, development and
architecture of linux audio related Hard- and Software. It's a fun place
to lure and learn. yet, take your time and think before posting there:
This is not the list to report generic linux audio bugs to developers.
Replying to your own emails N times and doing so quite often is not only
very bad netiquette, but annoying to many serious contributors here. If
you can't resist: write a blog.
Let me repeat an earlier advice which seems to have not sunken in:
Please read http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
in particular don't skip the A wrong but authoritative-sounding answer
is worse than none at all. section.
and from http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 aka Netiquette Guidelines:
If you are caught in an argument, keep the discussion focused on
issues rather than the personalities involved.
To answer your question:
The list-admin for this email-list is Marc-Olivier Barre and he can be
reached at linux-audio-dev-ow...@lists.linuxaudio.org
If you want find out if an email went to the list, check the
list-archive: http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
..or simply the email-header because IIRC the list does not accept
emails to it when it has been BCCed.
ciao,
robin
___
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Re: [LAD] twice as loud
Excerpts from fons's message of 2010-07-23 12:13:32 +0200: On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 11:34:43AM +0200, Philipp Überbacher wrote: We could think about what makes judging twice the loudness more difficult and maybe find a relation to another phenomenon this way. The limits of hearing apply to everything, but what about factors like the time between two sounds or the length of the sounds? All of these affect both masking and loudness. Yep, but maybe some of the other possible factors match one phenomenon but not the other. Indeed. As I said, this relation between 'loudness' and masking is pure conjecture, I have no hard arguments pro. I had some more thoughts regarding masking. If B masks A == B twice as loud? Is it that simple? The timing definitely plays a role in both cases. When the masking actually happens, we can't tell that it is twice as loud, we need the temporal distance. We also can't tell when the time between the two sounds is too long. Hence, we need a very specific time window to approximate the masking effect of B with regards to A. Same is probably true for the loudness. I didn't actually try to guess/judge a probable masking effect, but it would be a nice experiment. -- Regards, Philipp -- Wir stehen selbst enttäuscht und sehn betroffen / Den Vorhang zu und alle Fragen offen. Bertolt Brecht, Der gute Mensch von Sezuan ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 13:28 +0200, Robin Gareus wrote:
On 07/25/2010 12:43 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Just one question. Am I the only one who received a mail similar to this
off-list:
[ yet more irrelvant mindless crap! ]
How does the external ear exactly work? Perhaps it's part of this
function, to reflect sound.
Absolutely nothing to do with Linux Audio Development Ralf, ... please
desist.
I sometimes receive mails off-list abusing me for mails other people did
wrote.
Here I did wrote this mail, but as a reply to this topic. So please, if
you don't like me folks, abuse me for stuff that were my crime.
Hi Ralph,
Why are you writing to me? It might imply I did send you this email in
the first place.
I only send it to the list, but nobody else. IMPORTANT. It's true Robin
isn't the author.
I read your whole mail Robin, but I just wish to clarify this right now.
Ralf
Even though I did not, I concur with the original
author although I'd like to phrase it differently:
Please ask only Linux audio hw/sw development related questions here.
When answering, please stick to your expertise. Stop guessing,
brainstorming and spreading FUD.
Joern formulated this once like this:
/* before sending mail */
if (i_know_what_im_talking_about()) {
send();
} else {
discard();
sleep(3600);
}
Some of your comments or OT discussions would have been better on LAU
(where most of the Devs are subscribed as well). I fail to see how you
are involved in developing any linux-audio application, so please
refrains from posting here.
As you can read on the description at http://linuxaudio.org/mailarchive/
The linux-audio developer (LAD) mailing list is the place to discuss
and share in depth information concerning design, development and
architecture of linux audio related Hard- and Software. It's a fun place
to lure and learn. yet, take your time and think before posting there:
This is not the list to report generic linux audio bugs to developers.
Replying to your own emails N times and doing so quite often is not only
very bad netiquette, but annoying to many serious contributors here. If
you can't resist: write a blog.
Let me repeat an earlier advice which seems to have not sunken in:
Please read http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
in particular don't skip the A wrong but authoritative-sounding answer
is worse than none at all. section.
and from http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 aka Netiquette Guidelines:
If you are caught in an argument, keep the discussion focused on
issues rather than the personalities involved.
To answer your question:
The list-admin for this email-list is Marc-Olivier Barre and he can be
reached at linux-audio-dev-ow...@lists.linuxaudio.org
If you want find out if an email went to the list, check the
list-archive: http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
..or simply the email-header because IIRC the list does not accept
emails to it when it has been BCCed.
ciao,
robin
___
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Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 01:32:01PM +0200, Philipp Überbacher wrote: I had some more thoughts regarding masking. If B masks A == B twice as loud? Is it that simple? No :-( Masking depends on spectrum, timing, level, and maybe other factors. It's a complex thing and I don't think we have the full picture of it yet. For simple cases (narrowband signals, simultaneous, same direction) the concept of 'critical bands' is used to describe masking. Ciao, -- FA There are three of them, and Alleline. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
[LAD] Wrong attributions: Was twice as loud
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:39:12 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 13:28 +0200, Robin Gareus wrote: Hi Ralph, Why are you writing to me? It might imply I did send you this email in the first place. I only send it to the list, but nobody else. IMPORTANT. It's true Robin isn't the author. I read your whole mail Robin, but I just wish to clarify this right now. Ralf I think you'll find that this is a combination of people CCing list + several others along with some email clients that either don't strip off the CCs or in some cases don't even show them. The result is that CCs get multiply copied all over the place and nobody knows who is responding to who or what :( -- Will J Godfrey http://www.musically.me.uk Say you have a poem and I have a tune. Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Solved: No Flash audio. With a question.
On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 8:41 PM, Tim E. Real termt...@rogers.com wrote: I turned off the 'lock' control in envy24control and now Flash can set the rate to 48000Hz. I forgot to mention the Multi Track Rate Locking and Multi Track Rate Reset issues... Or the fact that sometimes you have to switch the clock rate around a few times manually to force it to reset when externally sync'd via SPDIF... Part of the problem is that the Locked and Reset are badly named in envy24control. In a screenshot I didn't include, one of the minor changes I made is to use the standard ALSA names, so at least the poor user faced with weird lockups can get some meaningful google searches back: http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=ice1712+ice1724+multi+track+rate+locking or http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=ice1712+ice1724+multi+track+rate+reset ... @@ -667,7 +700,7 @@ static void create_rate_state(GtkWidget *box) gtk_container_add(GTK_CONTAINER(frame), hbox); gtk_container_set_border_width(GTK_CONTAINER(hbox), 6); - check = gtk_check_button_new_with_label(Locked); + check = gtk_check_button_new_with_label(Multi Track\nRate Locking); hw_rate_locking_check = check; gtk_widget_show(check); gtk_box_pack_start(GTK_BOX(hbox), check, FALSE, FALSE, 0); @@ -676,7 +709,7 @@ static void create_rate_state(GtkWidget *box) (gpointer)locked); - check = gtk_check_button_new_with_label(Reset); + check = gtk_check_button_new_with_label(Multi Track\nRate Reset); hw_rate_reset_check = check; gtk_widget_show(check); gtk_box_pack_start(GTK_BOX(hbox), check, FALSE, FALSE, 0); .. Niels http://nielsmayer.com PS: Now playing, and generally excellent once you get past the talking (and amarok's or m4a's refusal to let me fast-forward past it...) It just suckers you in with that big fat supersaw (?) synth line at the beginning of Subway to Cologne I swear. (( requesting equivalent yoshimi patch, plz! )) http://www.whatpeopleplay.com/tracks/podcasts/27.m4a That's STORY #27 DJ Mix by ??? including interview with the mysterious AR of the secret STORY label Tracklisting: 1. story01-Subway To Cologne 2. story02 - deepcut59 3. story03-whobadu 4. Juju Jordash - Hired guns - downbeat 5. Kai Alce - ??? - real soon 6. San Soda - Ode aan de Nacht - we play house 7. stl - vintage hunter - something 8. Theo Parrish - I cant take it - sound signature 9. the mole - The Date - spectral 10. Trickski - ??? - still love 4 music 11. Dreevsn - ??? - acido 12. even tuell - lunch time with lowtec - out to lunch 13. Levon Vincent - Six figures - novel sound 14. Marcellus Pittman - Skylark - fxhe 15. Oni Ayhun - ooar003-b - oar ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] STEREO RULES
Ralf Mardorf wrote: People today aren't able to do a good stereo or mono mix, e.g. because of the loudness war, but they are thinking of doing 3D mixes. I'm unable to follow this strange evolution. We all have 2 ears and 1 brain that has to do a lot of work, regarding to information from the sense organs. The brain needs to do math because usually the left and right ear are not equal, so even when wearing a head phone the brain needs the context of the situation and the perfect natural loudness etc. for this context. All thoughts about doing 3D are useless until we aren't able to connect electrodes directly to our brains and to have a rimming regarding to our brains. As long as Cochlear implant isn't good, any try to do 3D mixing is laughable, resp. a pain, just try to watch AND hear a modern film, it's a torture. There are some good mixes for stereo and mono, but at least I never heard a valid mix with more but one ore two channels. I've been to Jörn Nettingsmeier's workshop at LAC2010 and that was 3D allright. And the good thing was, the complete recording and mixing was done with Linux. Best, Jeremy ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] STEREO RULES
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 05:21:17PM +0200, Jeremy Jongepier wrote: There are some good mixes for stereo and mono, but at least I never heard a valid mix with more but one ore two channels. I've been to Jörn Nettingsmeier's workshop at LAC2010 and that was 3D allright. And the good thing was, the complete recording and mixing was done with Linux. It was 2D Ambisonics actually, using 8 speakers. 3D (with height) is yet another experience. -- FA There are three of them, and Alleline. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] STEREO RULES
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 17:40 +0200, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote: On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 05:21:17PM +0200, Jeremy Jongepier wrote: There are some good mixes for stereo and mono, but at least I never heard a valid mix with more but one ore two channels. I've been to Jörn Nettingsmeier's workshop at LAC2010 and that was 3D allright. And the good thing was, the complete recording and mixing was done with Linux. It was 2D Ambisonics actually, using 8 speakers. 3D (with height) is yet another experience. It doesn't matter. I was wrong about my general (mis)judgement about surround. This doesn't mean that I'm fine with Ambisonics. I don't know it until now, because I didn't tested it, but for sure I was mistaken, because my experiences regarding to surround are outdated, resp. Ambisonics itself is as old as I'm, but less known. I try not to be more royalist than the king. As I mentioned before, even for '2D' IMO = stereo, I don't use the given abilities, because I tend to do stereo mixes compatible to mono. I'm not fine with 5.1 (or what ever the equivalent for movies is called) when watching a Hollywood movies. Somebody did mention that it even isn't 5.1 what I don't like, but the usage of 5.1. IMO more enlightenment is needed. I'm completely outdated, other people might confuse '3D' with '2D'. IMO the current possibilities are less known. ;) Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Solved: No Flash audio. With a question.
On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Tim E. Real termt...@rogers.com wrote: On July 24, 2010 06:44:40 pm you wrote: Holy crud that's nice !!! You really went to town on this ! I figured these cards are worth it... One of the changes I made seriously reduces the number of interrupts/ticks envy24control 0.6.0 generates, by replacing a bunch of 100ms timers with a single 100ms timer. And not updating the hardware meters across umpteen channels at 25 times a second. Which IMHO is hardware peak-metering abuse -- if you really need to visualize your sound in realtime, you might as well just run jkmeter or yass on the inputs or outputs and be done with it I want to be able to have 'envy24control' up and running all the time, using hardware peak meters to monitor the levels without significantly increasing CPU processing, and with metering that doesn't induce epileptic attacks... This 1.0.0 envy24control will be able to do that, and the lower resource usage will help save the planet too! How the heck did you manage the slider markings, after I posted I thought it was impossible to satisfy, especially with different cards ? I hopefully did the same thing as with 'alsamixer' which gives dB readings for all sliders -- but I'd love to have this tested with different cards to find out if there's problems. In particular M-Audio Delta 1010's, M-Audio Audiophile 2496, TerraTec EWS 88MT, TerraTec EWS 88D, TerraTec Phase 88, Hoontech SoundTrack DSP 24. http://nielsmayer.com/envy24control/envy24control-0.6-to-1.0.patch (patch to 'envy24control' from GIT trunk of alsa-tools) http://nielsmayer.com/envy24control/envy24control-1.0.tar.gz (full directory, just follow README directions to build/install) http://nielsmayer.com/envy24control/envy24control-1.0-fc12-x86_64.tar.gz (x86_64 binary that should work on fedora12 and equivalent OpenSuse release) http://nielsmayer.com/envy24control/envy24control-1.0.README (summary of changes from 0.6.0 to 1.0.0) -- Niels http://nielsmayer.com ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] STEREO RULES
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 18:03 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 17:40 +0200, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote: On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 05:21:17PM +0200, Jeremy Jongepier wrote: There are some good mixes for stereo and mono, but at least I never heard a valid mix with more but one ore two channels. I've been to Jörn Nettingsmeier's workshop at LAC2010 and that was 3D allright. And the good thing was, the complete recording and mixing was done with Linux. It was 2D Ambisonics actually, using 8 speakers. 3D (with height) is yet another experience. It doesn't matter. I was wrong about my general (mis)judgement about surround. This doesn't mean that I'm fine with Ambisonics. I don't know it until now, because I didn't tested it, but for sure I was mistaken, because my experiences regarding to surround are outdated, resp. Ambisonics itself is as old as I'm, but less known. I try not to be more royalist than the king. As I mentioned before, even for '2D' IMO = stereo, PS: Using the dummy head effects for headphones = left + right + ahead + behind ... without headphones stereo is more limited ;). I guess overhead and bottom is another very special issue. I don't use the given abilities, because I tend to do stereo mixes compatible to mono. I'm not fine with 5.1 (or what ever the equivalent for movies is called) when watching a Hollywood movies. Somebody did mention that it even isn't 5.1 what I don't like, but the usage of 5.1. IMO more enlightenment is needed. I'm completely outdated, other people might confuse '3D' with '2D'. IMO the current possibilities are less known. ;) Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On July 25, 2010 06:43:17 am Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 12:32 +0200, lieven moors wrote: On 07/25/2010 09:31 AM, Tim E. Real wrote: Hey, you know that little triangular flap of skin that almost covers the ear, just above the earlobe? Whaddya think if humans are (were?) to evolve that little flap so it can be completely and tightly pressed against the ear (like you can do now with your finger) thus acting as an 'eyelid' for your ear in case things get too loud ? I mean what the heck is it doing there now, eh? Tim. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev No need for that! I can already cover my ears completely with my earlobes (that's why they're there, right?) But I agree, it would be a little more comfortable... Lieven Just one question. Am I the only one who received a mail similar to this off-list: [ yet more irrelvant mindless crap! ] How does the external ear exactly work? Perhaps it's part of this function, to reflect sound. Absolutely nothing to do with Linux Audio Development Ralf, ... please desist. I sometimes receive mails off-list abusing me for mails other people did wrote. Here I did wrote this mail, but as a reply to this topic. So please, if you don't like me folks, abuse me for stuff that were my crime. Er, sorry maybe my fault on that one. I was commenting on the posts way down this thread about loudness and hearing loss, but I kinda didn't want it to get lost in the mayhem so I started a new sub-thread. If readers had not read those posts about hearing loss, then my post, and the replies, would appear to be off the topic. My bad. Should have responded to those posts only. Personally I don't mind if a thread which I started begins to wander off. It's all good. As long as someone learns something or some new tidbit of useful info emerges, or we just have a good chuckle, I'm OK with it. Hope y'all are, too ! It's a pleasure to rap with all the people out there and read all the interesting ideas and opinions which come back. But yeah, watch out for the CC'ing it's so easy to accidentally mess up the intended replies depending on what mail client you use. I try to only CC if the message is important or personal enough that the targeted CC should see it as soon as possible, sooner than the list. Tim. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] announcing envy24control, mudita (*) edition.
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Niels Mayer nielsma...@gmail.com wrote: (2) All volumes are represented as decibels, including the 0 to -48dB i don't own one, so its not of much concern to me, but dBWHAT ? ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Solved: No Flash audio. With a question.
On July 25, 2010 10:40:22 am you wrote: On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 8:41 PM, Tim E. Real termt...@rogers.com wrote: I turned off the 'lock' control in envy24control and now Flash can set the rate to 48000Hz. I forgot to mention the Multi Track Rate Locking and Multi Track Rate Reset issues... Or the fact that sometimes you have to switch the clock rate around a few times manually to force it to reset when externally sync'd via SPDIF... Part of the problem is that the Locked and Reset are badly named in envy24control. In a screenshot I didn't include, one of the minor changes I made is to use the standard ALSA names, so at least the poor user faced with weird lockups can get some meaningful google searches back: http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=ice1712+ice1724+multi+track+rate+locki ng or http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=ice1712+ice1724+multi+track+rate+reset Yeah, if someone like me who's studied the code, can forget (or never learned?) what that lock was for, imagine the trouble others have. To be fair, I never RTFM, hmm, is there a manual? I would prefer tooltips on some of those controls, although maybe that's not the right place to say Leave lock off for normal usage or something... Trouble is, I think it boots up like that, with the lock on. My friend who's setting up a studio and who's never tried linux before, has a Delta1010LT card (like me), and took the plunge and installed Ubuntu. His first phone call to me was Uh, Tim, no audio ! Good thing he's got me to help, er, or hinder ... Thanks for the amazing work on this. Will test and report. Tim. ... @@ -667,7 +700,7 @@ static void create_rate_state(GtkWidget *box) gtk_container_add(GTK_CONTAINER(frame), hbox); gtk_container_set_border_width(GTK_CONTAINER(hbox), 6); - check = gtk_check_button_new_with_label(Locked); + check = gtk_check_button_new_with_label(Multi Track\nRate Locking); hw_rate_locking_check = check; gtk_widget_show(check); gtk_box_pack_start(GTK_BOX(hbox), check, FALSE, FALSE, 0); @@ -676,7 +709,7 @@ static void create_rate_state(GtkWidget *box) (gpointer)locked); - check = gtk_check_button_new_with_label(Reset); + check = gtk_check_button_new_with_label(Multi Track\nRate Reset); hw_rate_reset_check = check; gtk_widget_show(check); gtk_box_pack_start(GTK_BOX(hbox), check, FALSE, FALSE, 0); .. Niels http://nielsmayer.com PS: Now playing, and generally excellent once you get past the talking (and amarok's or m4a's refusal to let me fast-forward past it...) It just suckers you in with that big fat supersaw (?) synth line at the beginning of Subway to Cologne I swear. (( requesting equivalent yoshimi patch, plz! )) http://www.whatpeopleplay.com/tracks/podcasts/27.m4a That's STORY #27 DJ Mix by ??? including interview with the mysterious AR of the secret STORY label Tracklisting: 1. story01-Subway To Cologne 2. story02 - deepcut59 3. story03-whobadu 4. Juju Jordash - Hired guns - downbeat 5. Kai Alce - ??? - real soon 6. San Soda - Ode aan de Nacht - we play house 7. stl - vintage hunter - something 8. Theo Parrish - I cant take it - sound signature 9. the mole - The Date - spectral 10. Trickski - ??? - still love 4 music 11. Dreevsn - ??? - acido 12. even tuell - lunch time with lowtec - out to lunch 13. Levon Vincent - Six figures - novel sound 14. Marcellus Pittman - Skylark - fxhe 15. Oni Ayhun - ooar003-b - oar ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] announcing envy24control, mudita (*) edition.
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 03:21:22PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote: On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Niels Mayer nielsma...@gmail.com wrote: (2) All volumes are represented as decibels, including the 0 to -48dB i don't own one, so its not of much concern to me, but dBWHAT ? For the meters I'd expect this to be relative to 'digital full scale'. Gains are just dBnothing whith 0 dB defined by whatever makes sense for the particular HW. Ciao, -- FA There are three of them, and Alleline. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] announcing envy24control, mudita (*) edition.
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com wrote: (2) All volumes are represented as decibels, including the 0 to -48dB i don't own one, so its not of much concern to me, but dBWHAT ? The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel is a unitless measurement. :-) However, in this case there are a few different semi-implicit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBFS and other markings that I left off in the name of saving on screen-real-estate and reduced redundancy. Tooltips across-the board would be a very helpful addition to the envy24control 1.0.0 interface. On the other hand, these are exactly the same dB values as reported by ALSA's amixer and alsamixer so such complaints should go upstream. :-) Specifically: (1) The db markings in Analog Volumes correspond to analog levels that can be set for the DAC or ADC's. e.g. 0 -to- -63dB attenuation of the output of the analog DAC, and the +18 -to- -63dB attenuation/amplification of the analog ADC. These are the exact same dB readings reported by ALSA, e.g. amixer -c M66: Simple mixer control 'ADC',0 Limits: 0 - 163 Mono: 163 [100%] [18.00dB] Simple mixer control 'ADC',1 Limits: 0 - 163 Mono: 163 [100%] [18.00dB] Simple mixer control 'ADC',2 Limits: 0 - 163 Mono: 152 [93%] [12.50dB] Simple mixer control 'ADC',3 Limits: 0 - 163 Mono: 152 [93%] [12.50dB] (2) The 0 to -48dB peak metering levels are based on values from hardware peak metering (per http://alsa.cybermirror.org/manuals/icensemble/envy24.pdf ) Peak data derived from the absolute value of 9 msb. 00h min - FFh max volume. Reading the register resets the meter to 00h. When 0dBFS reads on the peak meters in the new envy24control, it means 0dBFS relative to these 9MSB's. (see the red 0dBFS labels in http://nielsmayer.com/envy24control/Screenshot-Envy24Control-MonitorInputs.png or http://nielsmayer.com/envy24control/Screenshot-Envy24Control-MonitorPCM.png ). Note that the signal would be able to go 7 or 15 LSB's higher before reaching actual full-scale peak. It would be more useful if there was a way for the hardware meters to detect actual clipping, e.g. value=256, whereas normally the meters report values from 0-255. For example amixer -c M66 cget iface=PCM,name='Multi Track Peak',numid=45 returns: type=INTEGER,access=r---,values=22,min=0,max=255,step=0 : values=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,255,198,255,198 For proper metering, I suggest using Fons' excellent jkmeter with it's nice (and free) implementation of the K-System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K-14_spectrafoo.jpg (caption: digital audio meters in the Metric Halo application, called SpectraFoo). (3) For the envy24's built in digital mixer, the 8PCMs + 2*SPDIF out, and up to 8 inputs + 2SPDIF inputs, all send to the digital mixer via 24dB attenuators. Seer http://nielsmayer.com/envy24control/envy24mixer-architecture.png for details. Thus all mixer input sliders have 0 -to- -144dB attenuation. (from http://alsa.cybermirror.org/manuals/icensemble/envy24.pdf ) This is what the above manual says about the Envy24's digital mixer: 4.5.5 Multi-Track Digital Monitoring The Envy24 integrates a 36-bit resolution digital hardware mixer. The width of the data path is strictly to ensure that during processing of all the channels, under any condition, no resolution is lost. The dynamic range of the end user system will be limited by the range of the physical output devices used. In order to maintain identical gain to the input stream (i.e. 0dB), the resulting 24-bit is not msb-aligned to the 36-bit. The overflow bits correspond to the analog distortion due to saturation. The user would need to reduce the overall attenuation of the inputs to avoid clipping. Insertion of the digital mixer adds only a single sample cycle delay with respect to the original data. This extremely low latency all digital mixer provides monitoring functionality and can replace a traditional external analog input mixer. There are 20 independent audio data streams to mix and control the volume. -- Niels http://nielsmayer.com ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] announcing envy24control, mudita (*) edition.
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 12:10:44PM -0700, Niels Mayer wrote: Summary of updates from envy24control 0.6.0 (GIT HEAD) to 1.0.0: Compiles OK here but: - The meters just indicate level in a linear way. Half scale is -6dB etc. - The analog gain sliders behave strangly. They seem to 'detent' on the scale marks, it's quite impossible to set a value *near* a scale mark while at the same time the resulotion halfway between scale marks seems to be OK. - *Please* make the first analog gain fader size the same as the others. The presence of the 4dBu button should not affect this. - (personal preference) Don't group the faders into stereo pairs. Ciao, -- FA There are three of them, and Alleline. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] announcing envy24control, mudita (*) edition.
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 2:16 PM, James Morris ja...@jwm-art.net wrote: CPU up to 99% here as soon as any audio plays and GUI very sluggish. Delta 66 AMD64 Gentoo. That looks like it might be an instance of the bug I thought I'd fixed. It's especially odd because I too have a Delta66 and AMD64 for testing, but Fedora as distro. Did you build with the default --with-gtk2=yes and what version of gtk2 do you have? If you switch to the Monitor PCMs panel ( http://nielsmayer.com/envy24control/Screenshot-Envy24Control-MonitorPCM.png ) first, then start the audio, does the same thing happen? In adding the peak levels to the Analog Volumes panels, there's a complication with the original way the code was written, so that I have to special-case for the situation where the widgetry in Monitor PCMs hasn't been configured yet It's an unfortunate hack, and a bug I just fixed, so it's likely the source of the problem. Thanks for the feedback. Please let me know if the suggestion above helps any Part of the original reasons for these changes was to lower the CPU usage, not raise it. What's the CPU usage like running regular /usr/bin/envy24control ? -- Niels http://nielsmayer.com ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] announcing envy24control, mudita (*) edition.
On July 25, 2010 06:57:42 pm Tim E. Real wrote: I propose that the multi track rate locking be renamed to just lock ( *not* locked because believe it or not I actually thought that was an indicator, not a control - there is confusion with the locked label underneath the word clock button, speaking of which should be moved down slightly or coloured because it reads like word clock locked ), and that multi track rate reset be renamed to reset, and that the Rate State group box be renamed to Multi Track Rate State *or* left alone at just Rate State because frankly I find the phrase Multi Track a bit confusing esp. in other mixers, but you are right, it should match what ALSA calls it. Er, sorry scratch that. Again, you are right, they should match what ALSA calls them. And ... locking is still better than locked. So I say instead some descriptive tooltips would be very handy for users, at least on the hardware settings tab, even if there is a manual. But what about language translations? Is that more or less automatic, or requires intervention? You'd have a good advantage over other mixers there with real descriptions. Tim. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] announcing envy24control, mudita (*) edition.
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 3:23 PM, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote: - The meters just indicate level in a linear way. Half scale is -6dB etc. I originally talked about doing this in a previous thread, along with various other things that ended up being impossible, like integrating jkmeter :-). I figured there's enough changes in this first round that need testingfeedback and decided for release early and often rather than implementing yet another feature... This sounds like an incremental feature for 1.1 once the other changes I've made are vetted/tested and working. Note that the original meters essentially used the same value-to-pixel mapping for the peak meters -- they just didn't tell you that half-scale was -6dB. - The analog gain sliders behave strangly. They seem to 'detent' on the scale marks, it's quite impossible to set a value *near* a scale mark while at the same time the resulotion halfway between scale marks seems to be OK. This is a side effect of routines I added to draw markings in the scale widgets. GTK automatically auto-detents at the markings -- it's certainly not what I wanted. (See volume.c: e.g. draw_24bit_attenuator_scale_markings(), draw_dac_scale_markings() draw_dac_scale_markings() called out of envy24control.c:create_analog_volume()). If anybody knows how to get gtk_scale_add_mark() to not setup the detent then I could make this an option. (or at least weaken the level of hysteresis)... Otherwise, it's either detent, or no markings. As workaround, and perhaps a better choice for the finer control offered -- use the up-arrow and down-arrow, as well as page-up and page-down keys to move the selected slider. I've found that for the 24 bit attenuators feeding the digital mixer, the 1.5dB step-size pretty much necessitates using up/down arrow to get the right level of control. Alas, this aspect is unchanged from the 0.6.0 version of envy24control. Due to the 1.5db step-size at the top end, It would make a logarithmic control of these inputs quite jumpy... - *Please* make the first analog gain fader size the same as the others. The presence of the 4dBu button should not affect this. Hmm... what 4dBu button?? Sounds like you have a delta1010? Could you send me a screenshot of what that ends up looking like? It is supposed to look like this http://nielsmayer.com/envy24control/Screenshot-Envy24Control-AnalogVolume.png Yep, I saw code-paths I'd never invoke with my hardware, which is why I wanted to see testing on devices like the M-Audio Delta 1010 and 1010lt. - (personal preference) Don't group the faders into stereo pairs. Do you mean on the digital mixer inputs in Monitor PCM Outs and Monitor Inputs -- those were already stereo paired to begin with. I don't like it that much, but it would have been a big change. http://sourceforge.net/projects/kenvy24/ uses a Pan knob on each channel, which makes more sense, and wastes less space. (Alas kenvy24 doesn't work correctly, and appears long neglected). Or do you mean the L/R alternating labels on the sliders? For the Monitor PCM Outs and Monitor Inputs panels, I did it that way to reduce redundancy. Lots of repeated scale markings wasting screen real-estate. For the Analog Volumes I did it out of habit -- one of these days I'll expand my horizons to ambisonics. I guess this should be an option. To be really unixy, I should just have it be something really geeky like --meter_channel_modulus and if you set it to 2 you get the existing behavior. :-) Seriously, I guess the stereo pairing should be a binary command-line option in a future version. Thank you for your feedback. Oh, by the way, are you also seeing the high CPU usage issue that others have reported, or is it doing as intended -- which is acutally much lower CPU usage than the stock ALSA /usr/bin/envy24control . -- Niels http://nielsmayer.com ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
