Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
On 2021-04-05 11:56:30 (+), rosea.grammostola wrote: > This leads to the next problematic situation, that the JACK maintainer > is also the initiator and maintainer of the NSM fork. Filipe is **not** the maintainer of new-session-manager, yet you continue spreading lies about this and are trying to construct a case in your favor from this [1] [2]. > Guess which version he chooses now and in the future. There is a > conflict of interest here... again... unfortunately. The only conflict that exists here is the one that you continue to fabricate [3]. > I don't like how the brainchild of the original author is totally > hijacked by some people, hijacking linuxaudio.org for it in the same > time to make this possible. Noone has "hijacked" linuxaudio.org and your implications and outright lies about this are continuous personal attacks [1] on myself and others. > Fons, I don't think I've to quote your responses to the way they > forked and the names they gave it. You used even stronger words then I > did, which says something. I'm not sure whether you realize, that you are trying to bully Fons to be on one or the other side of the fence, which you have been busy building. People can in fact change their minds because they are confronted with more information about a topic or because they simply choose to do so. Interesting mix between loaded question [4] and (bullied) appeal to authority [5]. > The end-result is that the Non author removed his source code > (temporarily?) from the web in anger and despair. This is not "the end-result" but a decision, that Jonathan took without actual input from anyone else's side (for all I know), **after** his personal attacks towards the people involved (to whatever extent) with new-session-manager were shut down. Fabricating this into "the end-result" is mere correlation, not causation [6] and appeal to emotion [7]. > I agreed with him most of the time. Have you ever considered, that this is a bias, that let's you glance over all of the (well documented) verbal abuse and taints your output on this topic substantially [8] [9]? > Harsh if the above points means that the fork gets a place on > jackaudio.org, while the ethics of how this fork has been forked are > far off and the technical implementations disputable. Just because you repeat your opinions (which are still lies) over and over again does not make them true [2]. It just makes it more and more annoying for anyone else to read and who was trying to give you a chance at actual contribution. > These questionable ethics and disputable technical solutions would be > much more arbitrary and not part of the discussion here if they would > just stick with the NSM api (which they do, if I've to believe it, but > that's questionable as well) and if they would put their fork on a own > website. You keep on implying that something is "questionable" or "disputable", yet you never delivered any facts [10]. The only thing, that at this point can ojectively be considered those two terms are your own tactics of continuous conversation derailment, character assassination and insinuation of mal intent (long after being proven wrong). > Throwing another $0.02 in the box. Not much cents left... ;) In fact, those were the last two cents you had, as you are now banned from this list for continuous slandering, derailing and spreading of conspiracy theories and lies after receiving a warning [11] (also, I am tired of looking up logical fallacies on wikipedia). Bye, David [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_nauseam [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_bias [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion [9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias [10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance [11] https://lists.linuxaudio.org/archives/linux-audio-dev/2021-February/037955.html -- https://sleepmap.de signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
Hi all, On 2021-04-04 21:31:25 (+0100), Rui Nuno Capela wrote: > I'm not willing to open and engage into yet another discussion about > the so called "NSM fork", and yet this is exactly what happened. @Rui given that **you know** how this topic derails, the correct thing to do would have been to get in touch with the author of the software directly and **accept** whatever they decide. Purposefully engaging in this nonesense again and again, while even **cross-posting** on two lists is exactly how people are driven away from this platform and how one burns out the people who are trying to keep it running. This mailing list is **not** about politics around where stuff should be, should go or whatnot. This list is about development of audio software on Linux. This is why I will moderate this list again and drop any new message that goes towards this topic without any further notice. Please go back to what this list is actually meant for. Best, David -- https://sleepmap.de signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
On 4/5/21 2:34 PM, hgn wrote: Just a certain individual doesn't want to stop. The list went into moderation for him not that long ago, that was a good move to get all that nonsense quiet. I beg your pardon? that person is not certainly me, or is he/she? are you asking that I should be banned/moderated too? that would be quite an interesting move... though, I am still in the very strong and (strictly) technical opinion that the target of "the fork" should have been about "jackpatch" in the first place, and only. "jackpatch" is a standalone utility program, that just happens to be the real, and technically speaking, the "glue" to the JACK ecosystem--if you don't put it on the graph, NSM won't represent the slightest joy to any JACK client whatsoever nor their respective in-session connections. formerly, "jackpatch" has been delivered by the original "non-session-manager" source offering. NSM, the protocol or NSM API, as you might prefer, allegedly will be the same (or is it not?) but some chose that it was about the whole dang bundle: the original FLTK non-session-manager (or legacy-gui) but also the tiny "jackpatch" thingie... besides all the non-technical issues that I won't repeat here, i should say that was a disgraceful move to begin with, that (double-handledly) resulted in what you all know (and/or chose to ignore). what I believe that would be the right thing to do: this hypothetical "new-jackpatch" tool that maybe well be an addition to the official jackaudio.org source tree and thus community-recommended thereafter, in jack_tools, perhaps--just one official alternative with the full-stamp-of-approval by jackaudio.org et al. nb. people may still well choose whatever NSM *manager* he/she likes most (argodejo, raysession, new-session-manager, even the original non-session-manager, whatever... that would be great and possibly still is, I believe. but then, I digress... I apologize to bring you all this in such a rant, sorry again. promise I rest my case here, anyway: I've made my stance and, as said on the OP, I don't really wish to hose you with this matter anymore... wait, sorry :) as long as "n..-session-manage(r|ment).jackaudio.org" won't ever be a thing! nuff said signing-off -- rncbc aka. Rui Nuno Capela rn...@rncbc.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
On 05/04/21 20:31, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: besides all the non-technical issues that I won't repeat here, i should say that was a disgraceful move to begin with, that (double-handledly) resulted in what you all know (and/or chose to ignore). Sorry but what exactly the move to jackaudio.org resulted in, really? I am not joking, this is an honest and real question. And I am not talking about points that have already been answered. I believe the reasons for the move were already well explained. (Wherever people agree with them or not is a different matter) I only see you being the single developer/jack-related-person against such move. Would be interesting to hear other opinions. PS: the point of the previous email was not about you ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Monday, April 5, 2021 11:25 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: > On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 10:37:25PM +, rosea.grammostola wrote: > > > Somehow they need backup to get some authority apparently. > > Gotohttps://jackaudio.org and look around. Do you see NewSM there ? > It's not even in the applications list (it probably should be). > > Also please try to understand the difference between > > 1. https://new-session-manager.jackaudio.org and > 2. https://jackaudio.org/new-session-manager. > > or for that matter > > 3. http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org and > 4. http://linuxaudio.org/kokkinizita > > and note that what we have is (1) in both cases, and (2) does > not exist. > > That means e.g. that https://new-session-manager.jackaudio.org > not a part of the https://jackaudio.org site as it would be > for (2). They just share a host. > > > > We're the official NSM. > > There is nothing onhttps://new-session-manager.jackaudio.org/ that > says so. There is this: > > 'The goal is to become the de-facto standard music session manager > for Linux distributions.' > > IMHO there's nothing wrong with that. Every author would be very happy > to see his/her brain child become the de-facto standard. That's exactly one of the problems. It's not their brainchild. NSM is the brainchild of the developer of Non-Session-Manager (NSM). newSM as you call it, is a copy of it. That's why I raised the question, which version should be on jackaudio.org? The original or the fork? Fork A or fork B? This leads to the next problematic situation, that the JACK maintainer is also the initiator and maintainer of the NSM fork. Guess which version he chooses now and in the future. There is a conflict of interest here... again... unfortunately. I've two points against the fork, a ethical and a technical. I don't like how the brainchild of the original author is totally hijacked by some people, hijacking linuxaudio.org for it in the same time to make this possible. Fons, I don't think I've to quote your responses to the way they forked and the names they gave it. You used even stronger words then I did, which says something. The end-result is that the Non author removed his source code (temporarily?) from the web in anger and despair. It's also harsh that the original author had very good technical arguments to reject solutions to problems, which he thought they where the wrong analyses of the problems or the wrong solutions. He gave several options to implement solutions in a different way, which where in line with the ideas behind NSM instead. I agreed with him most of the time. Harsh if the above points means that the fork gets a place on jackaudio.org, while the ethics of how this fork has been forked are far off and the technical implementations disputable. These questionable ethics and disputable technical solutions would be much more arbitrary and not part of the discussion here if they would just stick with the NSM api (which they do, if I've to believe it, but that's questionable as well) and if they would put their fork on a own website. Using linuxaudio.org or now jackaudio.org makes these matters far more problematic. Then it becomes a community issue and then there then it's more a matter of, who has the most power or the best connections in the community. The situation with regards linuxaudio.org was more principal for me. I feel I've less to say about jackaudio.org, but here is my take on it: Keep the NSM fork separated from jackaudio.org, (especially until all the ethical issues are solved). Avoid conflict of interest between the JACK maintainer and his NSM fork. Don't 'pollute' the JACK project with the ethics and discussion about the NSM fork. Don't make the JACK project (indirectly) responsible for it, in any way. Put the NSM fork on it's own website or on the website of it's authors, kx.studio or laborejo.org. Give a short explanation on the jackaudio.org website about session management, e.g. NSM and link to the original API and if you like to the forks API (but they where the same...) if you like. Throwing another $0.02 in the box. Not much cents left... ;) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
Will Godfrey: Can this argument be taken private? It's going round and round and getting absolutely nowhere. If I want noise I can go to facebook or twitter :( Yes please, The whole matter has already been resolved for a long time, or actually there never was a "matter". Just a certain individual doesn't want to stop. The list went into moderation for him not that long ago, that was a good move to get all that nonsense quiet. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
Can this argument be taken private? It's going round and round and getting absolutely nowhere. If I want noise I can go to facebook or twitter :( -- Will J Godfrey https://willgodfrey.bandcamp.com/ http://yoshimi.github.io Say you have a poem and I have a tune. Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 10:37:25PM +, rosea.grammostola wrote: > Somehow they need backup to get some authority apparently. Goto https://jackaudio.org and look around. Do you see NewSM there ? It's not even in the applications list (it probably should be). Also please try to understand the difference between 1. https://new-session-manager.jackaudio.org and 2. https://jackaudio.org/new-session-manager. or for that matter 1. http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org and 2. http://linuxaudio.org/kokkinizita and note that what we have is (1) in both cases, and (2) does not exist. That means e.g. that https://new-session-manager.jackaudio.org *not* a part of the https://jackaudio.org site as it would be for (2). They just share a host. > We're the official NSM. There is nothing on https://new-session-manager.jackaudio.org/ that says so. There is this: 'The goal is to become the de-facto standard music session manager for Linux distributions.' IMHO there's nothing wrong with that. Every author would be very happy to see his/her brain child become the de-facto standard. Ciao, -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
On 04/04/21 23:26, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: On 4/4/21 11:06 PM, Nils Hilbricht wrote: please read the subject line! it's about the new-session-management move to jackaudio.org and only. it is NOT about the merits, technical or otherwise, of session managers in general nor NSM in particular. Then let me rephrase: Why should NSM not be hosted under jackaudio, since it is the session manager for JACK programs? The response to that was "because NSM is technically independent of JACK" and my answer was in the previous mail. allow me to kindly rephrase you: ... NSM ... is the *recommended* _session management_ for JACK programs! (note the distinction between "management" and "manager") and yes, I totally concur to that "NSM is technically independent of JACK". the thing that makes NSM so "JACK-friendly" is only about one separate utility/client program called "jackpatch"... nothing else technically relates NSM to JACK and vice-versa. real honest, I don't see a "why not" answer from your reply here. the biggest thing that sorta binds NSM and JACK together is people right now using them together. and afaik NSM being clearly made with that purpose in mind. allowing to be used on non-jack setups is a bonus of its good design, I would dare say a side-effect rather than the target. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
> > NSM's strict rules for client behaviour are what ensures that it will > be able to perform as promised. Something similar was missing in all > other Linux session manager systems I know of. So I'm very happy to > see Jack-session deprecated. > > Just my 2e-2 Euro of course. I think this is not about jack-session vs NSM. The last implementation of jack-session support in a application must have been years ago. Nobody knows what jack-session is and nobody is actively busy with it. A short explanation and a link to the NSM API on jackaudio.org would do. Note also that NSM is explicitly designed without a dependency to JACK. I'm happy about the removal of the connections with linuxaudio.org, but I don't understand why they now link up with jackaudio.org. The fork is highly debated and currently, points of criticism and requests from the original author and others are still not fully honored, like the naming, the use of NSM abbreviation and such. I wouldn't want that discussion being moved to jackaudio.org, also not if I stood in their shoes. It's just not smart. Somehow they need backup to get some authority apparently. We're the official NSM. One wonders why is the original NSM not hosted on jackaudio.org, or raysession or the next better session thing. Who is deciding this? I'm much more a proponent of such projects being independent, certainly knowing the history of and discussion around this fork. Make sure your software is good enough to get noticed and used. Take full responsibility for it yourself. Give it a nice dedicated website. People will find it (and developers will find it via a weblink on jackaudio.org). My 0.02 guilders. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
On 4/4/21 11:06 PM, Nils Hilbricht wrote: please read the subject line! it's about the new-session-management move to jackaudio.org and only. it is NOT about the merits, technical or otherwise, of session managers in general nor NSM in particular. Then let me rephrase: Why should NSM not be hosted under jackaudio, since it is the session manager for JACK programs? The response to that was "because NSM is technically independent of JACK" and my answer was in the previous mail. allow me to kindly rephrase you: ... NSM ... is the *recommended* _session management_ for JACK programs! (note the distinction between "management" and "manager") and yes, I totally concur to that "NSM is technically independent of JACK". the thing that makes NSM so "JACK-friendly" is only about one separate utility/client program called "jackpatch"... nothing else technically relates NSM to JACK and vice-versa. regards -- rncbc aka. Rui Nuno Capela rn...@rncbc.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
On 4/4/21 10:29 PM, Nils Hilbricht wrote: Then somebody interjected with "Note that Non-Session-Manager (NSM) is explicitly designed without any dependency to JACK." To which I responded: And it still is. You can use it with ALSA only, no sound programs at all or PipeWire. And so it will remain. That said, NSM in reality is the usual answer to "I have multiple JACK programs and connections. How can I save and restore them without doing it by hand every time". All NSM clients are JACK programs and the Non-SM API document handles JACK client names in great detail. Please all remember, that we are just talking about a piece of software that starts programs and removes the burden of repeatedly drawing lines on a patchbay canvas. please read the subject line! - it's about the new-session-management move to jackaudio.org and only. - it is NOT about the merits, technical or otherwise, of session managers in general nor NSM in particular. and as all you might know, NSM still is and have always been, since long before this mess arised, the recommended session management on most of yours truly qstuff and where it mattered. thanks -- rncbc aka. Rui Nuno Capela rn...@rncbc.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
[LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
Hi all, Please refer to this thread on linuxmusicians.com forum, starting here: re. Non-Session-Manager fork descalation https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?p=130477#p130477 I'm not willing to open and engage into yet another discussion about the so called "NSM fork", though I still don't understand what jackaudio.org has to do with the new(er)-session-management (aka "NSM fork") and why it is now moved from linuxaudio.org to jackaudio.org. I don't like it and as I said before (on #jack irc), it won't get my vote in: please don't make the same mistake again and keep jackaudio.org away from this diatribe. So please, host it on its own website, or github.com page, or on kx.studio or laborejo.org, as these are the proper to the main two proponents to "the fork". Thanks for listening -- rncbc aka. Rui Nuno Capela rn...@rncbc.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
>please read the subject line! >it's about the new-session-management move to jackaudio.org and only. >it is NOT about the merits, technical or otherwise, of session managers in >general nor NSM in particular. Then let me rephrase: Why should NSM not be hosted under jackaudio, since it is the session manager for JACK programs? The response to that was "because NSM is technically independent of JACK" and my answer was in the previous mail. Nils ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 10:01:53PM +0100, Filipe Coelho wrote: > I remember Nils writing there very clearly with an explanation for the why. I see absolutely no problem with having NewSM hosted on jackaudio.org. > In my opinion jack-session API is too simple and lacks rules for client > behavior. NSM's strict rules for client behaviour are what ensures that it will be able to perform as promised. Something similar was missing in all other Linux session manager systems I know of. So I'm very happy to see Jack-session deprecated. Just my 2e-2 Euro of course. -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
On 04/04/21 21:31, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: >Although I still don't understand what jackaudio.org has to do with the >new(er)-session-management (aka "NSM fork") and why it is now moved from >linuxaudio.org to jackaudio.org. I am paraphrasing my answer from the LinuxMusiciansForum. I copied that before many messages were deleted, which was announced in advanced btw. and I believe was a good moderation move. I moved the code from linuxaudio.org github to get peace for the people NOT involved in anything, that got dragged in. There was no "forced moved" from linuxaudio.org Github. I already mentioned "bus factor reduction" in a still existing forum-post, so here is another ingredient in the hosting situation: There are not many things everybody agrees on, but one is that it is better if everyone is using the same session management protocol (not server, not gui. If properly implemented these can be changed). This needs 1) developer support and 2) user acceptance. Having the project hosted under an established brand helps that goal. This is not an "oopsie", this is not a "compromise". I want the best, most visible, most trusted place. Having it hosted on github linuxaudio.org or jackaudio shows that this is not a one man fringe project but something that is handled with care and sincerity. Then somebody interjected with >"Note that Non-Session-Manager (NSM) is explicitly designed without any >dependency to JACK." To which I responded: And it still is. You can use it with ALSA only, no sound programs at all or PipeWire. And so it will remain. That said, NSM in reality is the usual answer to "I have multiple JACK programs and connections. How can I save and restore them without doing it by hand every time". All NSM clients are JACK programs and the Non-SM API document handles JACK client names in great detail. Please all remember, that we are just talking about a piece of software that starts programs and removes the burden of repeatedly drawing lines on a patchbay canvas. Greetings, Nils ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] new-session-management on jackaudio.org
On 04/04/21 21:31, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: Hi all, Please refer to this thread on linuxmusicians.com forum, starting here: re. Non-Session-Manager fork descalation https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?p=130477#p130477 I'm not willing to open and engage into yet another discussion about the so called "NSM fork", though I still don't understand what jackaudio.org has to do with the new(er)-session-management (aka "NSM fork") and why it is now moved from linuxaudio.org to jackaudio.org. I remember Nils writing there very clearly with an explanation for the why. But that whole thread got derailed due to lack of moderation and seems most posts have now been deleted. I am not registered on those forums, so I did not participate in that specific discussion. Maybe Nils still has a copy of those reasons, I remember them being quite clear. It is something like: 1. removing burden from some linuxaudio folks and consortium from all things surrounding NSM drama (so we just move it) 2. while moving, still keep new-session-manager in a somewhat group/org so that the project is not just seen as one-man show (plus Nils does not host his own stuff on github) 3. since pretty much all people using NSM now also use it with jack, and it has proven to be to best spec so far for standalone application session management, it does make sense to bring attention to it. this is related to point 2, but more in the sense that if you do use multiple standalone applications with jack and need some SM, go with NSM since it is by far the best one we have. In my opinion jack-session API is too simple and lacks rules for client behavior. Plus it relies on clients talking to the JACK library. NSM is much better. Not being directly related to jack means we can construct NSM clients without jack, so stuff like a notes application or git archiving of current project is all possible (which do not need audio) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
