Re: Preferred video card for Linux dual-head?
On Tuesday, 26 בAugust 2008, Omer Zak wrote: > Plans of mice and men always change. ATI might fold 8 months from now, > or be taken over by nVidia and have its product lines discontinued, or > switch to solar powered 3D holographic displays. Omer, you somehow miss my point. I'm not talking about some abstract future covered with nice ATI promises. This is *working* FOSS code written outside of ATI: http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/driver/xf86-video-ati.git Please note who host the source, and the names of the commiters (I found only one working for ATI). Your skepticism would have been valid a year ago when ATI promised to improve the FOSS drivers and docs -- at that time it was only words. However, they actually shipped the docs and are actually helping the developers, so we *already* have functional code. The only "futuristic" part about this is the normal time to test, debug, issue pre-releases (as you can see there were several), have distros package and release etc. This is the normal process done daily by any other FOSS project and any distro. Your argument is equivalent to saying: "How can you bank on Java if something would happen to Sun and they won't ship your free software Java implementation?" ... Ah, but Sun already released Java as GPLv3. The missing parts have already been completed. It only takes some time for distros to package and ship this work (BTW: some distros like my (anonymous) distro already did it). I'll stop chewing this thread as it must have bored all other subscribers by now. -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron Linux: Because rebooting is for adding new hardware To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Preferred video card for Linux dual-head?
On Tue, 2008-08-26 at 00:16 +0300, Oron Peled wrote:
> On Monday, 25 בAugust 2008, Omer Zak wrote:
> > On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 19:56 +0300, Oron Peled wrote:
> > > On Monday, 25 בAugust 2008, Amos Shapira wrote:
> > > > Since there are always swings around about "best linux support" which
> > > > I didn't follow, what's the order of the day? Should go with nVidia,
> > > > AMD or maybe Intel? Any specific card families/models?
> > [... snipped ...]
> > > * My second choice today would be ATI cards:
> > > 1. As someone else mentioned older (e.g: r300) chipsets have
> > >pretty good support in the FOSS driver (including
> > >simple 3D, compiz etc.)
> > > 2. AMD/ATI released hardware specs last year and started
> > >cooperating with FOSS community, which is significant for
> > >the newer cards (http://www.x.org/docs/AMD)
> > > 3. Because of (2.), there is better support for modern cards
> > >on the pipe. Specifically, David Airlie (one of X.org developers
> > >from Red Hat) already announced not long ago about major
> > >improvements in r500/r600 chipsets. This is bleeding edge
> > >source in his git repository, but it is reasonable to expect
> > >this code to land within 6-12 months in fast paced distros
> > >(Debian testing, Fedora, etc.)
> > Sorry, but the 2nd and 3rd reasons to choose ATI exist in the future
> > rather than today.
> >
> > If Amos Shapira can wait a year, then let him buy ATI a year from now.
> > But if he needs a solution today, then several of the above promises are
> > not relevant for him.
>
> Bzzt. You oversimplify:
> * Scenario I:
>- Let's assume Amos buys today an old ATI (r300/r400 based)
> because he cannot wait.
>
>- He gets reasonable 3D today (One of my Pentiums began
> doing compiz a year ago, after a regular update [ATI 9100IGP]).
>
>- Items {2,3} *still* apply, because some of the future
> updates would improve even those old cards. For example,
> some of the updates Airlie work on, involve adding kernel
> modesetting support for the old r300/r400 as well.
> (this would help in monitor hotplugging, xrandr, etc.)
>
> * Scenario II:
>- Amos buys today an ATI r500/r600 cards.
>- Can use FOSS drivers today (no 3D acceleration etc.)
>- Or can use proprietary drivers today.
>- But because of items {2,3} he would get an *improved*
> FOSS drivers within the next year (cleanup, release engineering,
> distribution roll out).
Amos presumably needs a working solution TODAY. Promises for bright
future are irrelevant.
If he chooses ATI cards, he should use only 1st reason to justify his
choice. This reason may well be enough to make the justification.
> So with ATI we have an "installment plan" ("Tashlumim")
> in two steps:
> * Get working (but limited) solution today (either old
>cards or proprietary drivers or no 3D acceleration)
> * Get better support for the *same* hardware on the
>next upgrade of your distro.
Plans of mice and men always change. ATI might fold 8 months from now,
or be taken over by nVidia and have its product lines discontinued, or
switch to solar powered 3D holographic displays.
> Where's the second step for nVidia cards?
If they are cheap enough, then the following plan would make economic
sense:
1. Buy today the cheap nVidia cards (such as GeForce FX 5200, which I
chose because of its low price).
2. A year from now, ATI releases its gee whiz drivers. Buy top of line
ATI cards to work with those drivers. Their price will be lower than
the price you'd pay if you bought today the ATI cards.
3. Remove the cheap nVidia cards and have them recycled, or donate them
to one of the Linux based school computer labs.
The difference in price of the ATI cards will cover the cost of the
nVidia cards.
Caveat: the above would work unless Amos's people need to develop custom
graphic software which works only with one type of graphic cards.
--- Omer
--
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Re: Preferred video card for Linux dual-head?
On Monday, 25 בAugust 2008, Omer Zak wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 19:56 +0300, Oron Peled wrote:
> > On Monday, 25 בAugust 2008, Amos Shapira wrote:
> > > Since there are always swings around about "best linux support" which
> > > I didn't follow, what's the order of the day? Should go with nVidia,
> > > AMD or maybe Intel? Any specific card families/models?
> [... snipped ...]
> > * My second choice today would be ATI cards:
> > 1. As someone else mentioned older (e.g: r300) chipsets have
> >pretty good support in the FOSS driver (including
> >simple 3D, compiz etc.)
> > 2. AMD/ATI released hardware specs last year and started
> >cooperating with FOSS community, which is significant for
> >the newer cards (http://www.x.org/docs/AMD)
> > 3. Because of (2.), there is better support for modern cards
> >on the pipe. Specifically, David Airlie (one of X.org developers
> >from Red Hat) already announced not long ago about major
> >improvements in r500/r600 chipsets. This is bleeding edge
> >source in his git repository, but it is reasonable to expect
> >this code to land within 6-12 months in fast paced distros
> >(Debian testing, Fedora, etc.)
> Sorry, but the 2nd and 3rd reasons to choose ATI exist in the future
> rather than today.
>
> If Amos Shapira can wait a year, then let him buy ATI a year from now.
> But if he needs a solution today, then several of the above promises are
> not relevant for him.
Bzzt. You oversimplify:
* Scenario I:
- Let's assume Amos buys today an old ATI (r300/r400 based)
because he cannot wait.
- He gets reasonable 3D today (One of my Pentiums began
doing compiz a year ago, after a regular update [ATI 9100IGP]).
- Items {2,3} *still* apply, because some of the future
updates would improve even those old cards. For example,
some of the updates Airlie work on, involve adding kernel
modesetting support for the old r300/r400 as well.
(this would help in monitor hotplugging, xrandr, etc.)
* Scenario II:
- Amos buys today an ATI r500/r600 cards.
- Can use FOSS drivers today (no 3D acceleration etc.)
- Or can use proprietary drivers today.
- But because of items {2,3} he would get an *improved*
FOSS drivers within the next year (cleanup, release engineering,
distribution roll out).
So with ATI we have an "installment plan" ("Tashlumim")
in two steps:
* Get working (but limited) solution today (either old
cards or proprietary drivers or no 3D acceleration)
* Get better support for the *same* hardware on the
next upgrade of your distro.
Where's the second step for nVidia cards?
Bye,
--
Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron
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Re: Preferred video card for Linux dual-head?
Hi, > * nVidia have: >1. The best proprietary Linux support ;-) >2. The worst FOSS support. >3. Someone else on this thread already detailed some > of the problems it brings (updates, cards with quick > End-Of-Life, etc.) Regarding your 3rd reason: Go pick Geforce 6XXX, 7XXX, 8XXX, 9XXX based card from ANY vendor, and you'll see on nvidia's web site that it's the SAME driver (NVIDIA-Linux-x86-173.14.12 as I write this email), which means any fixes to the driver will be working across the board, and not only that, but new features to the drivers will be working on your OLD card, and the best thing - it works on any modern distribution, be it RHEL-4, Ubuntu, Debian, SuSE, slackware, Mandriva, Gentoo, you-name-it! a simple installer, simple text GUI, does everything for you, all you have to do is restart your X. I can give you an example: In the last year, nVidia added PurePlay HD support to the Linux drivers. Neither Xine nor mplayer supports it, but from my experiece with XP on a low-end Dual core machine with some cheap 8XXX based card, playing blu-ray movies (well, rip off from the media..) with this PureVideo HD plays the video very well on XP while taking only 25% CPU load, and if you have a 7XXX or 8XXX or 9XXX based card, it will work for you as well (well, sort of.. until the guys at Xine or MPlayer or VLC will decide to add the support, its documented and the libraries are installed by default when installing the driver). Want to have some fun? Go take a Radeon 9xxx and try to use their propietary drivers (which has some advantages compared to the standard Xorg drivers) on Fedora 9, Ubunty Hardy or the latest OpenSuSE, good luck with that! how's you kernel hacking skill btw? cause you'll need them since the driver is different from whats available on Radeon 1XXX, 2XXX, 3XXX, 4XXX based cards. > * The only worse alternatives than nVidia are all the > VIA, SIS and their unloved, binary, non-supported, blobs. Actually, VIA drivers on Xorg are pretty good (well, besides the dual head which you can find tons of complains about it on the net), and they also announced that they'll open source their drivers + specs. SiS = CRAP. period. Hetz > Bye, > > -- > Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron > "In theory, it's practical. In practice - it's only a theory". > > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Skepticism is the lazy person's default position. my blog (hebrew): http://benhamo.org = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Preferred video card for Linux dual-head?
On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 19:56 +0300, Oron Peled wrote: > On Monday, 25 בAugust 2008, Amos Shapira wrote: > > Since there are always swings around about "best linux support" which > > I didn't follow, what's the order of the day? Should go with nVidia, > > AMD or maybe Intel? Any specific card families/models? [... snipped ...] > * My second choice today would be ATI cards: > 1. As someone else mentioned older (e.g: r300) chipsets have >pretty good support in the FOSS driver (including >simple 3D, compiz etc.) > 2. AMD/ATI released hardware specs last year and started >cooperating with FOSS community, which is significant for >the newer cards (http://www.x.org/docs/AMD) > 3. Because of (2.), there is better support for modern cards >on the pipe. Specifically, David Airlie (one of X.org developers >from Red Hat) already announced not long ago about major >improvements in r500/r600 chipsets. This is bleeding edge >source in his git repository, but it is reasonable to expect >this code to land within 6-12 months in fast paced distros >(Debian testing, Fedora, etc.) Sorry, but the 2nd and 3rd reasons to choose ATI exist in the future rather than today. If Amos Shapira can wait a year, then let him buy ATI a year from now. But if he needs a solution today, then several of the above promises are not relevant for him. --- Omer -- Never let beliefs, God or Gods incite war and hatred among human beings. My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Preferred video card for Linux dual-head?
On Monday, 25 בAugust 2008, Amos Shapira wrote: > Since there are always swings around about "best linux support" which > I didn't follow, what's the order of the day? Should go with nVidia, > AMD or maybe Intel? Any specific card families/models? * Intel would be best: 1. Full OSS drivers on any recent distro. 2. Good integration with the rest of x.org [xrandr etc.]) But They don't sell cards, only on-board chipsets. * My second choice today would be ATI cards: 1. As someone else mentioned older (e.g: r300) chipsets have pretty good support in the FOSS driver (including simple 3D, compiz etc.) 2. AMD/ATI released hardware specs last year and started cooperating with FOSS community, which is significant for the newer cards (http://www.x.org/docs/AMD) 3. Because of (2.), there is better support for modern cards on the pipe. Specifically, David Airlie (one of X.org developers from Red Hat) already announced not long ago about major improvements in r500/r600 chipsets. This is bleeding edge source in his git repository, but it is reasonable to expect this code to land within 6-12 months in fast paced distros (Debian testing, Fedora, etc.) * nVidia have: 1. The best proprietary Linux support ;-) 2. The worst FOSS support. 3. Someone else on this thread already detailed some of the problems it brings (updates, cards with quick End-Of-Life, etc.) * The only worse alternatives than nVidia are all the VIA, SIS and their unloved, binary, non-supported, blobs. Bye, -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron "In theory, it's practical. In practice - it's only a theory". To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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