RE: Version control (was: Re: What's wrong with this code?)
Easily doesn't mean a sysadmin for a day. Easily means not having to invest considerable man-power into making cvs and diff and branches and IDE integration and nightly building and whatnot work together. YMMV for the definition of considerable. I more than agree with you on the other points you raise. (As for shouting for a clearcase license, we had a shortage of CC licenses and a coworker who you could call a Loud Howard... funny story, really...) Shachar Tal Verint Systems > -Original Message- > From: Nadav Har'El [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 5:45 PM > To: Tal, Shachar > Cc: 'Gilad Ben-Yossef'; Guy Teverovsky; Linux-IL mailing > list; 'Shachar Shemesh' > Subject: Re: Version control (was: Re: What's wrong with this code?) > > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2003, Tal, Shachar wrote about "RE: Version > control (was: Re: What's wrong with this code?)": > > If only the small integratable single-minded tools were *easily* > > integratable, I suspect Rational would have gone of > business a few years > > ago. > > Why do they need to be "easily" integratable? What if it will > take your > sysadmin a whole day to do this integration? And what if you > pay a services > company (like IBM previously mentioned in this thread) to > provide you with > a turnkey solution? Nobody said ever said that every user > should need to > install and configure free software on his/her own. > > You might ask, "well, if it costs me money, why is the > free-software solution > any different from the propriatry one?" Well, there's a big > difference. > The free software solution won't charge you by user (haven't you ever > seen developers shout across the open space "please log out > of the version > control software, I need a license!"?). The free software > solution will > still be available when you decide to switch to a different > platform, CPU, > or operating system. If a bug in the program seriously annoys > you, you can > hire someone to fix it for you (with commercial software, > you'll need to > beg the manufacturer to fix it or give you partial sources.) > > Note, however, that some special scenarios - like 100 people working > full-time on a single huge code - are simply not useful in > the free software > world, which is why you don't see free software catering to > those needs. > Also, free software tends to cater to the needs of people who write it > (namely, developers) rather than managers and so on. The > managers sometimes > don't like it. For example, in a previous workplace I was > asked to switch > from Bugzilla to a commercial bug tracking software (that was > "integrated" > with the version control system). It was horrible - while > bugzilla allowed > me a lot of freedom and a lot of power (to discuss bugs with > others, to > pass bugs between developers), the commercial one was very > rigid and very > manager-oriented (most of the decisions required manager > rights to be done, > it was impossible to write comments on bugs, etc.). For me > (and some other > developers), the commercial solution was simply WORSE than > the free software > one. But it wasn't us making the decision of which software > to use - it > was the managers, and to them the commercial software was > more appealing. > > And if you think that free software is hard to integrate, > wait till you > here this: while Bugzilla was useful to us out-of-the-box, > the commercial > product had so many problems that we couldn't use it until one person > worked on it for nearly a month (!) tweaking the myriad of > scripts, parameters > and other crap that came with it. So much for easy > integration... And at > no point did anyone stop to ask "why are we paying thousands > of dollars > for this crap?" > > > -- > Nadav Har'El|Tuesday, Nov 18 > 2003, 23 Heshvan 5764 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > |- > Phone: +972-53-790466, ICQ 13349191 |And now for some feedback: > http://nadav.harel.org.il |EEE > This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Version control (was: Re: What's wrong with this code?)
I agree with you. Though, what Rational did that make their ClearCase product relatively successful, is the relative ease with which you can "script" their products. You can write triggers to be invoked at key steps in their work processes, or you can dispense with their work processes altogether and implement your own. Shachar Tal Verint Systems > -Original Message- > From: Boaz Rymland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:40 PM > To: Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: Version control (was: Re: What's wrong with this code?) > > > I think this is exactly the price you "pay" when choosing > these kind of > tools, or more generally, doing in the "unix way": > You just take some overhead explicitly onto *your* head but > you are left > with very flexible, hence powerfull, set of tools, which can > be combined > in numerous ways to do just about any task you choose (in principle). > you do not have *such* flexability, usually, in closed source > (graphic?) > application. this power lures in the command line land. > > Its raw power, but roughness in usage, against fixed (closed) > methods/ways to use, but the ease of that usage. Well, this trade off > can be phrased in many ways, but the point mentioned in the > mesasge I'm > replying to is, IMHO, talks exactly on that trade off. Your > preference > might vary. > > boaz. > > Tal, Shachar wrote: > > >If only the small integratable single-minded tools were *easily* > >integratable, I suspect Rational would have gone of business > a few years > >ago. > > > >Shachar Tal > >Verint Systems > > > > > > > > > > > >>-Original Message- > >>From: Gilad Ben-Yossef [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:38 AM > >>To: Guy Teverovsky; Linux-IL mailing list > >>Cc: Tal, Shachar; 'Shachar Shemesh' > >>Subject: Re: Version control (was: Re: What's wrong with this code?) > >> > >> > >>On Tuesday 18 November 2003 04:22, Guy Teverovsky wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>CVS is not: version control mechanism which is content > >>> > >>> > >>aware and action > >> > >> > >>>driven. It lacks inline documentation features and code maintenance > >>>(bugs, features) tracking... > >>> > >>> > >>Actually, CVS is a version control system and *that's it*. > >>ClearCase is > >>simply much more. It's like trying to compare Sendmail to Exchange. > >>Exchange has a mail server inside but to call Exchange a mail > >>server is > >>ridiculous. (save me the jokes about the bugs in BOTH Exchange and > >>sendmail, I've hearde them all. Hell, I invented a few of them.. :-) > >> > >> > >> > >>>Have I mentioned the wink-ing ? Suppose you have an app > >>> > >>> > >>that compiles 5 > >> > >> > >>>hours and another developer has already done another build > >>> > >>> > >>and parts of > >> > >> > >>>the objects can be reused. As much as you might not like > >>> > >>> > >>the product, it > >> > >> > >>>saves a hell LOT of time as the version control mechanism > >>> > >>> > >>will bring you > >> > >> > >>>already compiled parts from the network. > >>>Now consider an 6-7 hour build on a high-end workstation... > >>>Well, I am starting to sound as a sales man, so I will stop here. > >>> > >>> > >>Which is available seperatly in Open Source world, as ccache. > >>Which brings > >>me to my next related topic: > >> > >>Open Source software tends to create small flexible tools > >>that do a single > >>thing and do it well (e.g. CVS). You can combine several such > >>tools to > >>create a whole pacage that covers your needs (e.g. cvs + bugzilla + > >>ccache). > >> > >>Closed Source software tends to build big packages that try to do > >>everything. > >> > >>Some people prefer the flexability of multiple integratable > >>single packets. > >>Some people prefer the "full turnkey solution" of the closed > >>source world. > &
RE: Fw: What's wrong with this code?
> -Original Message- > From: Oleg Goldshmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:01 PM > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > Subject: Re: Fw: What's wrong with this code? > > > "Tal, Shachar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > If I need access to code which I am not "privileged" for, I ask for > > it, and bang, 15 seconds later I have access to it. No big > > "fill-forms-in-three-copies-then-chase-disgruntled-IT-people" deal. > > This seems to me a contradiction to what you wrote earlier. To quote: > > "The company I work for currently does not allow engineers access to > code they have no business reading in the first place. Of course, a > malicious programmer can always social engineer his way into getting > access to the code." How is that contradiction? Does not allow != VP R&D signs approval forms. When I need access to code X, I ask the person in charge of that for access, and he either gives it to me or not, based on the reasons I give him. If he doesn't, I either flog him with really long SATA cable or talk to his boss. > > > The point I try to drive is, you don't need good reasons to > > compartmentalize. You need good reasons not to. > > I said nothing about "compartmentalization," whatever meaning you care > to put into the word. I remarked on the passage quoted above, saying > that reasons to do that were few and far between. > > > Well, most tools do exist (e.g. source control, automated testing, > > UML code generator) for 99.9% per cent of the companies, who deal > > mostly with standard software engineering. The other 0.1% may > > require exotic tools (e.g. I have no idea how to test VMWare > > without special tools). > > I am guessing wildly. It seems that your notion of "standard software > engineering" differs from mine. I suspect you assign all the different > things I did and all the things I am doing to 0.1% of "exotic" > activities. Dealing with VMWare does not seem exotic at all to me... You misunderstood my example. I did not mean *using* VMWare, I meant *testing* VMWare (as the VMWare vendor). > > > If you know how to reach a ratio of internal to customer > code of more > > > than 10:1 (apart from Excel macros), and produce decent > customer code, > > > would you consider sharing the insights? > > > > You seem to either be really amazed by what I said. People, > am I the only > > one in the forum who thinks that most code written is production > > code? > > Don't confuse between production code and customer code. Internal code > (including all the examples you gave, which are good but few) can be > production. > > There is ample anecdotal evidence of surveys done at software > development conferences of how many programmers work on customer > deliverables. The numbers usually quoted are in the range of 95% code > written for internal consumption. Last time I personally was present > when this kind of question was asked was at Go-Linux in spring. A > speaker asked a big hall full of people who developed software for a > living (a good portion of the audience raised hands) and then who > wrote code sold to customers (2 or 3 hands). I find it extremely hard to believe. I' think that the business model of the employers of those present at that Go-Linux is skewed in a sick, sick way (assuming open-source is still a long way from being profitable for any but a select few). Every single person in the my development group is developing code that is sold to customers. Previous jobs had roughly the same percentile of "money-bringing" people (surely all had >90% money earners). > In every company I worked for internal scaffolding was > done. Prototypes, demos, tons of debugging code and tools specific to > the domain, research tools, simulators for hardware and software, > independent implementations of different solutions only one of which > ultimately became production, customization and fixing of existing > software and libraries, throw-away code to try things out, you name > it. > > A situation where you have tools that generate ready production code > for you, verify it, generate automatic builds, testing, and all the > rest of the scaffolding, sounds really exotic to me. To tersely comment on these long paragraphs: I never worked for companies who waste their resources writing prototypes and demos that never ended as production code. It's not that I select my jobs that way, it just never happened. I suspect such companies either have deep pockets to fund these activities, or they go under ve
RE: Linux/UNIX/ISO VARARGS to MSVC++ ???
Google is your friend...
Fourth from the top, searching for : variable arguments "#define" "visual
C++"
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Programming/Programming_Languages/Cplusplus/
Q_20281300.html
HTH,
Shachar Tal
Verint Systems
> -Original Message-
> From: Noam Rathaus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 1:42 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Linux/UNIX/ISO VARARGS to MSVC++ ???
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am trying to find a solution to converting this macro:
> #define msg(flags, ...) do { if (MSG_TEST(flags))
> x_msg((flags), __VA_ARGS__); } while (false)
> Or this one:
> #define msg(flags, args...) do { if (MSG_TEST(flags))
> x_msg((flags), args); } while (false)
>
> To something that MSVC++ will allow to compile, currently it
> appears that cannot. I will be happy to see someone with a
> solution to this...
>
> (BTW, this code is taken from the OpenVPN project, which I am
> trying to build a MFC based GUI for, open sourced of course)
>
> Thanks
> Noam Rathaus
> CTO
> Beyond Security Ltd.
> http://www.securiteam.com
>
>
> ==
> ==To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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RE: [OT] OSS lint-type static checker?
> -Original Message-
> From: Oleg Goldshmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 1:22 PM
> To: Tal, Shachar
> Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: Re: [OT] OSS lint-type static checker?
>
>
> "Tal, Shachar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > > From: Oleg Goldshmidt
>
> > > Of course, another problem with VC++ is that it often does not
> > > compile perfectly legal C++ code.
> >
> > More often, the code that VC++ perfectly compiles is not perfect C++
>
> That's less of a problem in this context, isn't it? You don't care
> much that VC++ compiles what should not compile - you are
> double-checking with lint (of whatever flavour suits you). However, if
> lint gives your code a clean bill of health but your production
> compiler chokes on it, you are in trouble.
My point was that there is VC++ code that is correct but will be barked at
by gcc/g++. This will be considered "noise".
I suspect that this noise is an additive constant, that can be taken into
account and greped out of the "lint" output, but the question is how big is
that constant.
> > I'm not sure gcc will have a good signal-to-noise ratio when chewing
> > MS's flavor of C++.
>
> This depends on whether you consider the warnings that g++ in "lint
> mode" is likely to spit onto the screen "noise" or "signal". Since you
> are looking for a lint, I assumed you were going to treat it as
> "signal"... It's more or less the same "signal" as any lint will
> produce ("same" <=> "has the same purpose").
See my comment above.
> --
> Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Shachar.
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RE: [OT] OSS lint-type static checker?
> -Original Message- > From: Oleg Goldshmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 8:27 PM > To: Tal, Shachar > Subject: Re: [OT] OSS lint-type static checker? > > > "Tal, Shachar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I'm talking about code that I gets compiled (for production) with MS > > compilers, on MS platforms. > > You didn't mention MS (apart from mentioning C#) in your > original posting. Mea culpa. > > Yes, gcc can run on windows, but it usually > > isn't worth the effort to compile once for debugging, and once for > > production. > > I *really* disagree - it is well worth the effort. Besides, wat's the > difference between running $lint and running gcc? Put > > gcc -c "$@" -o /dev/null > > in a script called lint, and there you go. You'll need a hook to VC++, > I suspect it is possible to create one. Of course, another p roblem > with VC++ is that it often does not compile perfectly legal C++ code. More often, the code that VC++ perfectly compiles is not perfect C++ (I won't even mention ANSI compliance). I'm not sure gcc will have a good signal-to-noise ratio when chewing MS's flavor of C++. Past experience have shown otherwise. > > -- > Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Shachar Tal Verint Systems This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Fw: What's wrong with this code?
Hi Oleg, > -Original Message- > From: Oleg Goldshmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 10:28 AM > To: Tal, Shachar > Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; 'Shachar Shemesh'; Guy Teverovsky > Subject: Re: Fw: What's wrong with this code? > > > "Tal, Shachar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I have no idea what you're talking about. > > More is the pity. Let me try to explain myself in a couple of simple > sentences. To be a good software engineer, you need to read other > people's code. To develop programs efficiently, you need to show your > code to other people. A company that does not encourage these two > activities whenever possible does not utilize the full potential of > its developers (and I am being generous). IMHO, you need a very good > reason *not* to do it. Reason below. > > Being an IBM employee, I'm sure you are aware of software systems > > that are larger than any single person's perceptional abilities. > > Working on a multi-hundred man-years software, I seldom need to > > access code for subsystems I don't develop or maintain, and even > > more seldom need to understand its inner workings. Design documents > > are usually satisfactory. > > I never said you must read and learn *all* the code developed at your > company. I only said that unless there are compelling reasons > preventing this you should be able to access as much code as > possible. What I said was generic, not IBM-specific. Rest assured, my code is being read by others and I read other people's code. But not *everybody* read my code, nor do I bother with readying everybody's code. We use a buddy system. We have teams, each is in charge of specific subsystems. Inside teams, people read other peoples' code *all* the time by definition, since we do code reviews. Outside of teams, we have knowledge transfer sessions, both at top-level design stuff and low-level code stuff. And, yes, we consult with people from other teams when the need arises and sometimes when it doesn't. But I don't really need access to all code on a regular basis. Nor can I understand most of it (under the famous 30-second test) without guidance anyway. And it would be a wise precaution to compartmentalize, just in case I have very weak passwords *and* I leave my modem and PCAnywhere (with null password) up for the weekend, in case I may want to connect to work. You seem to view compartmentalizing as a tedious process, Dilbert-style. I do not. If I need access to code which I am not "privileged" for, I ask for it, and bang, 15 seconds later I have access to it. No big "fill-forms-in-three-copies-then-chase-disgruntled-IT-people" deal. The point I try to drive is, you don't need good reasons to compartmentalize. You need good reasons not to. > > As for internal consumption vs. customer consumption - perhaps IBM > > can afford writing a lot of software for internal consumption. Most > > companies first write customer software then internal software. > > These companies must be living in a dream world where everything they > need for development actually exists before they start. I have worked > for tiny struggling startups and for multibillion dollar > multinationals > - it's not a matter of money. This was not the case in any of them, > and I have never heard of any case like that. You first create the > scaffolding, then you build. You create more scaffolding as you build. Well, most tools do exist (e.g. source control, automated testing, UML code generator) for 99.9% per cent of the companies, who deal mostly with standard software engineering. The other 0.1% may require exotic tools (e.g. I have no idea how to test VMWare without special tools). > > Granted, software is written internally everywhere (test suites, > > load suites, code generators, various automation efforts, even the > > sales people need Excel macros to compute what to charge a > > customer). But not as much as written for customer consumption. > > If you know how to reach a ratio of internal to customer code of more > than 10:1 (apart from Excel macros), and produce decent customer code, > would you consider sharing the insights? You seem to either be really amazed by what I said. People, am I the only one in the forum who thinks that most code written is production code? Shachar. This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If y
RE: Version control (was: Re: What's wrong with this code?)
If only the small integratable single-minded tools were *easily* integratable, I suspect Rational would have gone of business a few years ago. Shachar Tal Verint Systems > -Original Message- > From: Gilad Ben-Yossef [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:38 AM > To: Guy Teverovsky; Linux-IL mailing list > Cc: Tal, Shachar; 'Shachar Shemesh' > Subject: Re: Version control (was: Re: What's wrong with this code?) > > > On Tuesday 18 November 2003 04:22, Guy Teverovsky wrote: > > > CVS is not: version control mechanism which is content > aware and action > > driven. It lacks inline documentation features and code maintenance > > (bugs, features) tracking... > > Actually, CVS is a version control system and *that's it*. > ClearCase is > simply much more. It's like trying to compare Sendmail to Exchange. > Exchange has a mail server inside but to call Exchange a mail > server is > ridiculous. (save me the jokes about the bugs in BOTH Exchange and > sendmail, I've hearde them all. Hell, I invented a few of them.. :-) > > > Have I mentioned the wink-ing ? Suppose you have an app > that compiles 5 > > hours and another developer has already done another build > and parts of > > the objects can be reused. As much as you might not like > the product, it > > saves a hell LOT of time as the version control mechanism > will bring you > > already compiled parts from the network. > > Now consider an 6-7 hour build on a high-end workstation... > > Well, I am starting to sound as a sales man, so I will stop here. > > Which is available seperatly in Open Source world, as ccache. > Which brings > me to my next related topic: > > Open Source software tends to create small flexible tools > that do a single > thing and do it well (e.g. CVS). You can combine several such > tools to > create a whole pacage that covers your needs (e.g. cvs + bugzilla + > ccache). > > Closed Source software tends to build big packages that try to do > everything. > > Some people prefer the flexability of multiple integratable > single packets. > Some people prefer the "full turnkey solution" of the closed > source world. > > I'd leave my personal opionion of it for now :-) > > Gilad > > -- > Gilad Ben-Yossef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Codefidence. A name you can trust (tm) > http://www.codefidence.com > > "Half of one of my eyes is already open. I'm going to make > coffee now..." > -- Kathi 16:08:04 > This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Fw: What's wrong with this code?
> -Original Message- > From: Oleg Goldshmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 8:40 PM > To: Tal, Shachar > Cc: 'Shachar Shemesh'; Guy Teverovsky; Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: Fw: What's wrong with this code? > > > > The company I work for currently does not allow engineers access to > > code they have no business reading in the first place. > > They must have a *really* good reason for it. The disadvantages of > this approach are too many to count. The more code your programmers > read the better code they will write. External security restrictions > or "clean room" requirements can justify this, but hardly anything > else. In any case, the above exceptions should be just that - > exceptions. Usually companies write more code for internal consumption > than for customers. I have no idea what you're talking about. Being an IBM employee, I'm sure you are aware of software systems that are larger than any single person's perceptional abilities. Working on a multi-hundred man-years software, I seldom need to access code for subsystems I don't develop or maintain, and even more seldom need to understand its inner workings. Design documents are usually satisfactory. As for internal consumption vs. customer consumption - perhaps IBM can afford writing a lot of software for internal consumption. Most companies first write customer software then internal software. Granted, software is written internally everywhere (test suites, load suites, code generators, various automation efforts, even the sales people need Excel macros to compute what to charge a customer). But not as much as written for customer consumption. Shachar. This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Fw: What's wrong with this code?
> -Original Message- > From: Shachar Shemesh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 8:38 AM > To: Tal, Shachar > Cc: Guy Teverovsky; Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: Fw: What's wrong with this code? > > > Tal, Shachar wrote: > > >While agreeing with most of your post, I can testify to > previously working > >for a company with a state-of-the-art ClearCase > implementation. Each R&D > >team has it's own branch to work on, and only the > integration team merged > >files from these branches to our /main branch. > > > Would you say that this prevents a single developer, on a whim, from > introducing a backdoor? It makes it harder, as diffs are examined (by a single person or two people) before introducing code to the main branch. It's possible to obfuscate a backdoor, of course, but harder than when no one is watching. > > Furthermore, each feature had > >its own branch, which was merged to relevant team branches > once matured and > >tested. Yes, this definitely isn't ClearCase 101, but I > agree with Shachar > >that the companies (in Israel, anyway) using a good version > control system > >and matching procedures can be counted on one hand of former > army Engineer. > > > > > > > I was also making the point that, even if all procedures were > in place, > a backdoor can still be introduced. See my next sentance from my > original mail. I'll grant you that. > >>In any case, assuming the developer is qualified to write > production > >>code, they can write code that gets CPU time on a client's > >>machine. As > >>such, they can backdoor the product. > >> > >>In short - there is plenty room for a single developer to > backdoor a > >>commercial product. This goes for any commercial environment. > >> > >> > ... > > >>As such, it is worth noting that I am yet to see a > commercial company > >>where, as a rule, one developer does not have source code > >>access to the > >>entire company's product suite. There are exceptions (a release the > >>company is trying to keep a secret, government contracts, > clean room > >>reverse engineering), but they are just that - exceptions. > >> > >> > > > >Again, here you're wrong. The company I work for currently > does not allow > >engineers access to code they have no business reading in > the first place. > >Of course, a malicious programmer can always social engineer > his way into > >getting access to the code. > > > > > > > Hmm. Doesn't your company fall under the second case in my > "exceptions" > list? A part of the company does. I'm not talking about that specific part, since I don't work for that part. Shachar Tal Verint Systems This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Fw: What's wrong with this code?
> -Original Message- > From: Shachar Shemesh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 7:51 AM > To: Guy Teverovsky > Cc: Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: Fw: What's wrong with this code? > > > Guy Teverovsky wrote: > > >On Thu, 2003-11-13 at 10:46, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: > > > > > >>Now, what would have happend if this was a run of the mill > closed source > >>security firm? > >> > >> > > > >Closed source firms rarely use CVS (if ever). > > > Hmm - you must have better info about closed source companies > than I do. > Those I know either don't use source control at all, use > Visual Source > Safe (a.k.a. check repository once a week or there WILL be data > corruption), or use CVS. > > I know one rather big company that started forcing a > migration from CVS > to rational down their developer's throat. When the migration was 80% > done, the sheer pressure from the developers stopped the process. > > > Big projects usually rely > >on version control mechanisms with integrated version > tracking, logging > >and authentication mechanisms (user, time, machine, file, > branch, etc... > >where the file was checked-in). Pure mortal developers do > not have the > >permissions to perform merges with main branches. > > > As has been established in the previous paragraph, you are > talking about > commercial companies that live in a different world than the > ones I know. > > Even if permission based restriction were applied - if a > company has a > procedure that requires one set of eyes to review a change before it > goes in, you would call that a "highly quality aware company" (and > wouldn't be enforced by passwords anyhow). Even so, big > changes rarely > go in after line-by-line peer review. When the merges occure, the > project manager has little ability to know the specifics of each and > every line of code several dozens developers wrote. The merge > process is > usually a mere verification that the change makes sense in it's new > environment. The slightest discrepancies are forwarded to the > person who > wrote the original code to clear out. > > > ClearCase by Rational > >(or should I say IBM ?) is a good example of such an application. > > > > > Lets separate what the app can do, with the way it is being typically > deployed. I am yet to see a deployment of clearcase where developers > were given commit access to certain parts of a program, but not to > others. You can define code owners for code areas, and > enforce that each > commit to a given code be approved (or at least acknoledged) by the > relevant owner. This can be done in CVS too, however. While agreeing with most of your post, I can testify to previously working for a company with a state-of-the-art ClearCase implementation. Each R&D team has it's own branch to work on, and only the integration team merged files from these branches to our /main branch. Furthermore, each feature had its own branch, which was merged to relevant team branches once matured and tested. Yes, this definitely isn't ClearCase 101, but I agree with Shachar that the companies (in Israel, anyway) using a good version control system and matching procedures can be counted on one hand of former army Engineer. > In any case, assuming the developer is qualified to write production > code, they can write code that gets CPU time on a client's > machine. As > such, they can backdoor the product. > > In short - there is plenty room for a single developer to backdoor a > commercial product. This goes for any commercial environment. > > >You might forget it, but in the proprietary code world one > of your worst > >fears is the industrial espionage and sabotage by your competitors. > > > > > While I have heard rumors of soure code leaking left and > right, actual > code sabotage is pretty rare. After all, a competitor is more > interested > in what I've done, than in introducing a back door into my > product that > noone is likely to find about anyways. As such, sabotage is > pretty low > on most IT managers and CEOs list of threats. Most don't even see IP > leaking as a major threat (not by internal developers). > > As such, it is worth noting that I am yet to see a commercial company > where, as a rule, one developer does not have source code > access to the > entire company's product suite. There are exceptions (a release the > company is trying to keep a secret, government contracts, clean room > reverse engineering), but they are just that - exceptions. Again, here you're wrong. The company I work for currently does not allow engineers access to code they have no business reading in the first place. Of course, a malicious programmer can always social engineer his way into getting access to the code. > >>First of all, I seriously doubt it that the fact of the > change would have > >>been detected at all, but even if it were the sys admin > discovering it > >>would
[OT] OSS lint-type static checker?
Hi all, Anyone can recommend or warn against usage of a (preferably Open Source, otherwise customizable) lint-like tool, for static checking of C++ and/or C# code? Thanks, Shachar Tal Verint Systems This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Reiserfs acting up
Did you try checking for bad blocks using dd if=/dev/hda9 of=/dev/null ? Shachar Tal Verint Systems > -Original Message- > From: Shachar Shemesh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 12:25 AM > To: Ez-Aton > Cc: Linux-IL > Subject: Re: Reiserfs acting up > > > Ez-Aton wrote: > > >What is 03:09 device? Check your /proc/bus/devices and/or > your disk section in > >/proc. > > > > > If I'm not mistaken - that should be /dev/hda9, which is > where /home is > mounted from (and where all the processes that failed had open files). > > >Do you get to hear weird noises out of your computer during > such a case? > > > > > No, and neither do the rest of the system lock up. I can continue > working in text mode, and in fact read and write the logs > (where these > messages were brought to you from). The harddisk, as I > mentioned before, > is brand new. > > >Do dmesg | grep 03 and check what 03:09 refers to. It might > be bad blocks (my > >guess) > > > That was original guess. However, repeating the same processes that > failed once did not produce the same symptoms. The two times > report very > different blocks as causing the problems. Also, the rest of the disk > seems to function without a problem. > > > or it might be some PCI device malefunctioning. > > > > > I'm now leaning torwards a reiserfs deadlock of some kind. > The problem > is just not reproducable enough. > > >My two cents and a dime. > > > >Ez. > > > > > >>Don't know about this problem, but why are do you keep just > about every > >>module under the sun loaded? > >> > >> > I don't go around unloading them, if that's what you are asking. The > Debian initrd process loads just about every single IDE > driver, and most > of them remain there. PIIX is the only one actually used. > > >>Also do you think its reiserfs thats causing the problems? > (I see you > >>also have ext2 and ext3 modules loaded). > >> > >> > I have 1 ext partition (/boot). Everything else is reiserfs. Not to > mention the fact that the string vs-3050 only appears inside reiserfs. > > >>What is your root's file system (the question is raised since its > >>supposed to be compiled in and I see reiserfs, ext2 and ext3 are > >>modules). > >> > >> > The root filesystem is not compiled in. RTFM initrd. > > -- > Shachar Shemesh > Open Source integration consultant > Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ > > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EULA on free software?
The confusion is about the word "support". It will be supported in a way that it will not be intentionally blocked. It will be supported in the way that if you bring MS hard evidence that their software has bugs, or that the bugs are not on the Linux side, they will repair it (in their half-hearted way, I assume). I will *not* be supported in this way : it will not be QAed against Linux in Redmond before product release. Sure, it's an important difference, and if I had to buy (and pay) for such a product I would have gone with VMWare. But for the hobbyist, it's not much of a difference. Shachar Tal Verint Systems > -Original Message- > From: Oleg Goldshmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM > To: Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: EULA on free software? > > > "Tal, Shachar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > BTW - This just in: MS Virtual PC 2004 (aka Connectix 5.2's > successor) will > > have Linux support. > > Read all about it at > > > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/11/0448214&mode=threa d&tid=109&tid= > 187 Uh? I've RTFAed: the article carries a clear statement from M$ that Linux will *not* be supported. It will probably run (it is probably kinda difficult to cripple the virtualization engine to distinguish between guest OSes), but will not be supported. This is a big differentiation from VMWare, IMHO. I have never used Connectix, I got an impression that they did support Linux guests. If that is correct, then M$ did drop support for Linux in their product. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EULA on free software?
> -Original Message- > From: Shachar Shemesh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:00 PM > To: Tal, Shachar > Cc: Muli Ben-Yehuda; Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: EULA on free software? > > > Tal, Shachar wrote: > > >>There are several snags in this plan of yours. > >>A. Up until this email of yours, I wasn't aware of the fact > >>that I can > >>get Connectix through MSDN. This is particularily troubling > as I have > >>paid good money for both VMWare and MSDN Universal. Upon > inspection I > >>could not find Connectix in my DVD collection, but could find it in > >>their subscribers download section. I'm now wondering what > >>else I have > >>paid for but have not received. > >> > >> > > > >That is a known issue with the DVD collection. It's on their > FAQ somewhere. > > > > > > > Can you find it for me, please? > I tried searching for both "Connectix" and "Virtual PC". > Nothing. Their > index software doesn't even work on my computer. All in all, > their index > is below reproach. Will do, but later today. > >>B. There is no need to stop using the products when the audit > >>arrives. > >>The MSDN license is not revoked when the year is up. All that > >>happens is > >>that updates stop arriving. I am not sure how this will > >>cooperate with > >>product activation - I have so far avoided doing activation for all > >>products I installed. MS practically begs you not to > activate an MSDN > >>installed product unless you really have to, and that is one > >>recommendation I'm going to follow. > >> > >> > > > >Not exactly. When you license MSDN Universal you probably > licensed one copy > >of it, meaning you can install exactly one instance of each > product. If you > >install more than one instance, then at the end of the > license period you > >either pay for extra licenses of MSDN or the software, or > uninstall them. > > > > > > > Unless it's for development purposes. This applies for the > duration of > the license too. I can install one production version of Windows > XP/Office/whatever (servers not included - the license does not cover > servers at all). I can install up to 10 Windows > versions/Office/whatever > for development purposes, and up to 3 (IIRC) servers. I don't > think the > license expires as such. I was told otherwise. I will investigate further. BTW - This just in: MS Virtual PC 2004 (aka Connectix 5.2's successor) will have Linux support. Read all about it at http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/11/0448214&mode=thread&tid=109&tid= 187 > >>In any case, there is no need for me to regret buying > VMWare. Like I > >>mentioned before, the free alternatives are not up to par > (more's the > >>pitty), and connectix doesn't run on my choice of host system. > >> > >> > > > >I never said you should regret using VMWare. > > > >Shachar. > > > > > >This electronic message contains information from Verint > Systems, which may > >be privileged and confidential. The information is intended > to be for the > >use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are > not the intended > >recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the > >contents of this information is prohibited. If you have > received this > >electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to > this email. > > > > > > > -- > Shachar Shemesh > Open Source integration consultant > Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ > > This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EULA on free software?
> -Original Message- > From: Shachar Shemesh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:30 AM > To: Tal, Shachar > Cc: Muli Ben-Yehuda; Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: EULA on free software? > > > Tal, Shachar wrote: > > >I work for a mostly-M$ shop, which happens to have an MSDN > site license, and > >so Connectix is free to me (funny how M$'s M&As can work for > you...). A > >small (~1-man) shop can purchase such a license, just for > the MSDN Library, > >for $2K or so, and use any M$ product for a few years before > M$ requires an > >audit. During that time period, it's perfectly legal to > install a million > >instances of Connectix or Office or whatever. When the > scheduled audit > >arrives, you can choose if you want to continue using those > products (and > >upgrade the license, which will cost much more...), or just > uninstall all > >to-be-illegal software. A nice loophole we have here. > > > >Shachar. > > > > > There are several snags in this plan of yours. > A. Up until this email of yours, I wasn't aware of the fact > that I can > get Connectix through MSDN. This is particularily troubling as I have > paid good money for both VMWare and MSDN Universal. Upon inspection I > could not find Connectix in my DVD collection, but could find it in > their subscribers download section. I'm now wondering what > else I have > paid for but have not received. That is a known issue with the DVD collection. It's on their FAQ somewhere. > B. There is no need to stop using the products when the audit > arrives. > The MSDN license is not revoked when the year is up. All that > happens is > that updates stop arriving. I am not sure how this will > cooperate with > product activation - I have so far avoided doing activation for all > products I installed. MS practically begs you not to activate an MSDN > installed product unless you really have to, and that is one > recommendation I'm going to follow. Not exactly. When you license MSDN Universal you probably licensed one copy of it, meaning you can install exactly one instance of each product. If you install more than one instance, then at the end of the license period you either pay for extra licenses of MSDN or the software, or uninstall them. > In any case, there is no need for me to regret buying VMWare. Like I > mentioned before, the free alternatives are not up to par (more's the > pitty), and connectix doesn't run on my choice of host system. I never said you should regret using VMWare. Shachar. This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EULA on free software?
> -Original Message- > From: Muli Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:55 AM > To: Tal, Shachar > Cc: 'Shachar Shemesh'; Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: EULA on free software? > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 09:48:49AM +0200, Tal, Shachar wrote: > > > Well, I believe (I never used UML, though) you can install > Linux (not using > > UML) into another set of partitions, and then use those > partitions for your > > UML instance. Am I mistaken in my understanding of UML? > > You missed a step, wherein you create a root filesystem (a > single file) > out of each of those partitions for UML to use. So you only need one > partition which you can reuse for each new installation. > > > I work for a mostly-M$ shop, which happens to have an MSDN > site license, and > > so Connectix is free to me (funny how M$'s M&As can work > for you...). A > > small (~1-man) shop can purchase such a license, just for > the MSDN Library, > > for $2K or so, and use any M$ product for a few years > before M$ requires an > > audit. During that time period, it's perfectly legal to > install a million > > instances of Connectix or Office or whatever. When the > scheduled audit > > arrives, you can choose if you want to continue using those > products (and > > upgrade the license, which will cost much more...), or just > uninstall all > > to-be-illegal software. A nice loophole we have here. > > I can't decide whether I admire MS or pity you. It certainly reminds > me of the drugs analogy, where the first few are free, and for the > rest, you pay through the nose or give up the habit. What exactly does > connectix do? is there a free software alternative? You can do both :) Connectix does pretty much the same as VMWare, and has several nice features VMWare is lacking (to my best knowledge), such as the ability to dynamically throttle resources between guest OSen, based on foreground/background/CPU-boundness/IO-boundness etc. As Oleg correctly pointed out, Connectix was recently purchased by M$ (you can read about it on slashdot), and removed formal support of Linux. However, their product manager claimed that they will not cripple the product to not run with any specific guest OS, such as Linux. My personal experience is that Linux runs perfectly on top of Connectix. Shachar. This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EULA on free software?
I said IT. :) The development people are not against Linux (though most prefer Microsoft). Shachar Tal Verint Systems > -Original Message- > From: Shachar Shemesh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:55 AM > To: Tal, Shachar > Cc: 'Muli Ben-Yehuda'; Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: EULA on free software? > > > Tal, Shachar wrote: > > >Yeah, it was a joke. > > > >But then again, I only use Linux at home (though I have a > computer with a > >Windows 2000 bootable on it, just in case), but at work I > run some Linux > >instances in Connectix, since the IT dept. is quite biggoted > again Linux. > >Perhaps even "The Shachar" (tm) run Windows somewhere. > > > >Shachar. > > > > > You don't know what you are saying. I am partially responsible to the > first Debian install in your company :-) > > >This electronic message contains information from Verint > Systems, which may > >be privileged and confidential. The information is intended > to be for the > >use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are > not the intended > >recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the > >contents of this information is prohibited. If you have > received this > >electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to > this email. > > > > > > > -- > Shachar Shemesh > Open Source integration consultant > Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ > > This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EULA on free software?
> -Original Message- > From: Shachar Shemesh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:25 AM > To: Muli Ben-Yehuda > Cc: Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: EULA on free software? > > > Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: > > >On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 06:39:07PM +0200, Shachar Shemesh wrote: > > > > > > > >>I downloaded Fedora, and tried to install it on a box of > mine (well - > >>VMWare to be precise). The problem with installing it was not > >>technical. > >> > >> > > > >Boo, real men use UML and report bugs :-) > > > > > I realize that this was meant as a joke, but I would like to > make sure > that I'm not missing anything. > > As far as I know - UML is for running an OS within an OS (and for > running DDD on kernel modules). VMWare is for running virutal > machines. > I was not previously even aware that I could install a Linux > distribution from ISO into UML. Is that at all possible? Well, I believe (I never used UML, though) you can install Linux (not using UML) into another set of partitions, and then use those partitions for your UML instance. Am I mistaken in my understanding of UML? > P.S. > Any news on free alternatives to VMWare? Boches is so slow it > hurts, and > plex86 never left the ground, as far as I know. Not that I know of. I work for a mostly-M$ shop, which happens to have an MSDN site license, and so Connectix is free to me (funny how M$'s M&As can work for you...). A small (~1-man) shop can purchase such a license, just for the MSDN Library, for $2K or so, and use any M$ product for a few years before M$ requires an audit. During that time period, it's perfectly legal to install a million instances of Connectix or Office or whatever. When the scheduled audit arrives, you can choose if you want to continue using those products (and upgrade the license, which will cost much more...), or just uninstall all to-be-illegal software. A nice loophole we have here. Shachar. This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EULA on free software?
Yeah, it was a joke. But then again, I only use Linux at home (though I have a computer with a Windows 2000 bootable on it, just in case), but at work I run some Linux instances in Connectix, since the IT dept. is quite biggoted again Linux. Perhaps even "The Shachar" (tm) run Windows somewhere. Shachar. > -Original Message- > From: Muli Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:17 AM > To: Tal, Shachar > Cc: Shachar Shemesh; Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: EULA on free software? > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 09:12:21AM +0200, Tal, Shachar wrote: > > > > > You implicitly assume that Shachar's host OS is Linux. UML > doesn't work on > > Windows. :) > > > > You have got to be kidding me. This is Shachar Shemesh we are talking > about, OK? > > Cheers, > Muli > -- > Muli Ben-Yehuda > http://www.mulix.org | http://mulix.livejournal.com/ > > "the nucleus of linux oscillates my world" - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: EULA on free software?
> -Original Message- > From: Muli Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:12 PM > To: Shachar Shemesh > Cc: Linux-IL mailing list > Subject: Re: EULA on free software? > > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 06:39:07PM +0200, Shachar Shemesh wrote: > > > I downloaded Fedora, and tried to install it on a box of > mine (well - > > VMWare to be precise). The problem with installing it was not > > technical. > > Boo, real men use UML and report bugs :-) You implicitly assume that Shachar's host OS is Linux. UML doesn't work on Windows. :) Shachar. This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Redhat 9 slowness - continued
> -Original Message- > From: Nadav Har'El [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 10:38 PM > To: Oleg Kobets > Cc: Zvi Har'El; My Own Private List > Subject: Re: Redhat 9 slowness - continued > > > On Sun, Nov 09, 2003, Oleg Kobets wrote about "Re: Redhat 9 > slowness - continued": > > Oh, well. > > But the question remains, why is it slower ? > > Continuing the Redhat 9 saga: > > I previously thought that the slowdown had something to do > with the dynamic > linking slowdown. I no longer think so - I think the > /lib/tls/* libraries > are slower in doing some operation than /lib/i686/* libraries are. > > I now ran hspell on a very big corpus of about 3 million Hebrew words, > on my Pentium 1500 running Redhat 9. With the default > /lib/tls libraries, > hspell took 8 CPU seconds (user time). With LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/lib/i686, > the time is down to 4.5 seconds!! > > The 3.5 second difference of course cannot be attributed to > slow dynamic > linking - it's the /lib/tls that suck. My guess is that some common C > function that hspell uses, perhaps even the stdio, strlen(), > or who knows > what, is much slower in the tls version. > I wonder what is that slow-poke function that I should > avoid... I can't > even profile this problem, because there is only one variant of the > profiling libraries (glibc-profile doesn't appear to contain "tls" and > "i686" variants). > > Another possibility is that the tls version wasn't optimized > for 686 while > the i686 libraries were - though I doubt this can explain the > almost half- > speed performance I'm seeing. I read a benchmark of C vs. C++ vs.C# just a few weeks ago. They also compared different compilers and libraries (all under windows). Just to give a few examples: gcc/glibc's atoi() is 50% slower than VC6 runtime with Intel's massively optimizing compiler. string switching (i.e. C switch on strings) is twice as fast in VC6/Intel than gcc/glibc. string tokenization is 20% slower on gcc/glibc than Intel. AFAIK, TLS libraries, aside from requiring more actual code about stack allocation, hold several stacks or one segmented stack (for several threads), and will tend to use more space and hence perform worse on L1/L2 caches. Overall, I wouldn't be surprised that a TLS implementation, on top of optimizations, will amount to slower performance. Shachar. This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: "GNU/Linux Compatible" Initiative
Hi Amichai, I believe w3c.org has an HTML/XHTML/strict etc. validator online, so this can be verified online by users. In the event someone wants to post a rating of Israeli sites, one just needs to write a 5-liner perl/python script and beautify the results :) Shachar > -Original Message- > From: Amichai Rotman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 10:32 PM > To: Linux-IL > Subject: "GNU/Linux Compatible" Initiative > > > Hi Linuxers, > > How about starting, through Hamakor, some kind of a rating / > certification > system for Israeli Web sites to check if they are GNU/Linux > / Open Source > friendly. > > I mean, can be viewed with GNU/Linux tools (like Konqueror, > Mozilla etc.) > without any special changes. > > Maybe Web sites that don't get it on the list, should be > "black listed". If > such a list becomes public (like on that Linux eZine I mentioned on a > previous e-mail) it will make those companies to make it > friendly for us. > > Just a thought, > > Amichai. > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Redhat 9 slowness - continued
Actually, my first guess of TLS would not spell security (as in Transport Level Security), but would spell favoring-SMP (as in Thread-Level Storage). I suppose you /lib/tls is optimized for SMP and /lib/i686 for UP. Of course, I could be wrong, as this is written way too early in the morning. Shachar Tal Verint Systems -Original Message- From: Oleg Kobets [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 12:56 AM To: Nadav Har'El Cc: My Own Private List Subject: Re: Redhat 9 slowness - continued Hmm, I always trust my inner instincts, and right now, they tell me that "tls" has something to do with encryption. Perhaps they made an encrypted version of C lib to prevent trojans and stuff and that added to the time programs run ? Makes sence to me. - Original Message - From: "Nadav Har'El" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 10:19 PM Subject: Redhat 9 slowness - continued > A few days ago, somebody complained about KDE being slower on Redhat 9 > than it was in earlier versions. I don't know if my experience is related, > but it confirms something bizarre is going on in Redhat 9. > > I just switched from a Pentium 500Mhz running Redhat 8, to a Pentium 1500 > running Redhat 9. > > Remember how Hspell 0.5 took ages to run, and Hspell 0.6 is much much faster > to start up? Well, being in love with that fact ( ;)) I wanted to see just > how quickly it runs on my new fast machine. On my old machine, it took it > 0.3 seconds to start up (hspell /dev/null). I expected it to take 0.1 seconds > (CPU time) to start on the new computer, but... It still took 0.3 seconds! > > I started cursing the fake CPU I probably have on the new machine, and > the bugs I probably have in Hspell, before I had an epiphany: what if > some dynamic-linking issues slowed hspell's running, and it wasn't hspell > itself which is slow? > > So I recomiled hspell staticly (-static, i.e., without shared libraries) > on both machines. Lo and behold, Hspell now takes just 0.23 seconds on > the old machine, and 0.095 seconds on the new machine. > > So, apparently, on Redhat 8 the dynamic linking added 21% to > "hspell /dev/null"'s static running time, while on Redhat 9, the > dynamic linking added 200% (!!!) to the running time of the static > program. In absolute terms, 0.2 extra CPU seconds were wasted on > Redhat 9, and this is on my new fast machine - on an old machine the > added time would have been enormous. > > But why is this happening? And why does it effect hspell, and not, say > "cat /dev/null"? > > One thing I noticed is that when I do "ldd" to hspell (or cat, or anything), > I don't get /lib/i686/... like I got in Redhat 8 - instead I get some > /lib/tls/ What is that? setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH to /lib/i686 made > hspell very speedy again - 0.12 seconds - back to the acceptable 20% > overhead for dynamic linking. > > Does anybody know what these "tls" version of the C library are? Why > are they so much slower to load? Or is there another explanation to the > problems I'm seeing? > > Thanks for any insights, > Nadav. > > > -- > Nadav Har'El|Saturday, Nov 8 2003, 14 Heshvan 5764 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- > Phone: +972-53-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Seen on the back of a dump truck: > http://nadav.harel.org.il |<---PASSING SIDE . . . . . SUICIDE---> > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Meeting with Gadi Gilon
Shachar Tal Verint Systems -Original Message- From: Tzafrir Cohen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 2:25 PM To: Linux-IL mailing list Subject: Re: Meeting with Gadi Gilon > http://www.newsforge.com/software/03/10/18/1814211.shtml?tid=132&tid=82&tid= 89 > > "What happens when a proprietary software company dies?" > > In short, that article ddemostrates that when a company goes under, > nothing is safe. The source code is considered one of the late company's > assets, and as such, "giving it away" as guaranteed may not be easy. Not exactly. When a company goes under, if it has any prior liabilities (such as contracts to supply source code in case of bankrupcy), those take precedence over any "dismantlement" actions by authorities-nominated lawyer. In fact, the court cannot overrule such contracts. Shachar. This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Meeting with Gadi Gilon
-Original Message- From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 12:46 PM To: Shachar Shemesh Cc: Linux-IL mailing list Subject: Re: Meeting with Gadi Gilon > I'm fine with it. Albeit, it could turn into a one against many flame-war. Then we'll just have to use our patience :) I'm for it. Shachar. This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: GPL Licensing Question
Thanks. Though, his particular implementation is patented, hence his reluctance to release it under the GPL. Shachar Tal Verint Systems -Original Message- From: Gilad Ben-Yossef [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 7:25 PM To: Tal, Shachar; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Re: GPL Licensing Question On Sunday 26 October 2003 19:06, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: > On Sunday 26 October 2003 16:26, Tal, Shachar wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I have a GPL licensing question that came from a customer of mine: > > > > That customer is currently developing a distributed client-server, where > > the communication protocols between clients and servers are non-standard > > (i.e. not HTTP or likes of it). The customer wishes to include > > somewhat-modified GPLed software components in its client software (e.g. > > python, GTK or LAM/MPICH), while keeping his server implementation, > > protocol implementation and part of client code proprietary, in order to > > actually make money off the software. Oh, I also forgot to add that you can make money off of Free Software as well, so that's no execuse. I guess s/he is just greedy ;-) Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Codefidence. A name you can trust (tm) http://www.codefidence.com This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPL Licensing Question
Hi all, I have a GPL licensing question that came from a customer of mine: That customer is currently developing a distributed client-server, where the communication protocols between clients and servers are non-standard (i.e. not HTTP or likes of it). The customer wishes to include somewhat-modified GPLed software components in its client software (e.g. python, GTK or LAM/MPICH), while keeping his server implementation, protocol implementation and part of client code proprietary, in order to actually make money off the software. Does that conform to the GNU Public License? How much of the code does the customer have to release under the GPL? I know some of you are going to start your responses with "IANAL, but ...", I know most of you aren't. Just give me your best shot, and I'll take the majority's opinion to the customer, along with a very warm recommendation to actually see a lawyer. Thanks, Shachar. This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: grip rips at 4x speed instead of close to CD-ROM full-speed
I see nothing that may be the cause of this problem. Try increasing the
read-ahead size (# of sectors to read ahead, upon each request). It makes
sense on sequential access.
Shachar Tal
Verint Systems
-Original Message-
From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 2:10 PM
To: Tal, Shachar
Cc: Linux-IL
Subject: RE: grip rips at 4x speed instead of close to CD-ROM full-speed
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Tal, Shachar wrote:
> Hi Shlomi,
>
> 1. Is the other drive (DVD/CDR) idle during the ripping? IDE is not as
> efficient as SCSI with regard to multiple devices using the IDE bus at the
> same time.
Yes, there's nothing in the other drive.
> 2. Please send hdparm -i / -v output.
# hdparm -i /dev/hdd
/dev/hdd:
Model=ATAPI-CD ROM-DRIVE-52MAX, FwRev=VER 52AI, SerialNo=
Config={ Fixed Removeable DTR<=5Mbs DTR>10Mbs nonMagnetic }
RawCHS=0/0/0, TrkSize=0, SectSize=0, ECCbytes=0
BuffType=unknown, BuffSize=0kB, MaxMultSect=0
(maybe): CurCHS=0/0/0, CurSects=0, LBA=yes, LBAsects=0
IORDY=yes, tPIO={min:227,w/IORDY:120}, tDMA={min:120,rec:150}
PIO modes: pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4
DMA modes: mdma0 mdma1 mdma2
UDMA modes: udma0 udma1 *udma2
AdvancedPM=no
[EMAIL PROTECTED] shlomi]#
# hdparm -v /dev/hdd
/dev/hdd:
HDIO_GET_MULTCOUNT failed: Invalid argument
IO_support = 0 (default 16-bit)
unmaskirq= 0 (off)
using_dma= 1 (on)
keepsettings = 0 (off)
readonly = 1 (on)
readahead= 8 (on)
HDIO_GETGEO failed: Invalid argument
> 3. Which format do you encode to? What isthe CPU usage of the encoding
> process? Are you CPU bound or IO bound?
>
I think I'm ripping to WAVs, and know I encode to mp3. The encoding
process runs at 10x, and even before any encoding starts it is still a
slow ripping. Even a rip only rips at 5.4x.
Regards,
Shlomi Fish
> Shachar Tal
> Verint Systems
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 1:39 PM
> To: Linux-IL
> Subject: grip rips at 4x speed instead of close to CD-ROM full-speed
>
>
>
> Hi!
>
> I have an IDE CD-ROM Drive. It is found on the same IDE interface as a
> DVD Drive + CD-Rom Burner, which is a different interface than the
> hard-disks' one.
>
> When I use grip 3.0.7to rip+encode a music CD, it rips it at about 4x,
> while the CD-ROM drive is 52x. I already used hdparm -E 52 /dev/hdd on the
> drive and in Windows FreeRIP rips at close to full speed.
>
> How can I rip at full speed using grip?
>
> Regards,
>
> Shlomi Fish
>
>
>
> --
> Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
>
> Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than
> getting
> its license changed.
>
> Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic.
>
>
> =
> To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which
may
> be privileged and confidential.The information is intended to be for the
> use of the individual(s)or entity named above.If you are not the intended
> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of
the
> contents of this information is prohibited.If you have received this
> electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email.
>
--
Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than
getting
its license changed.
Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic.
This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may
be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the
use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended
recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the
contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this
electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email.
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RE: grip rips at 4x speed instead of close to CD-ROM full-speed
Hi Shlomi, 1. Is the other drive (DVD/CDR) idle during the ripping? IDE is not as efficient as SCSI with regard to multiple devices using the IDE bus at the same time. 2. Please send hdparm -i / -v output. 3. Which format do you encode to? What is the CPU usage of the encoding process? Are you CPU bound or IO bound? Shachar Tal Verint Systems -Original Message- From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 1:39 PM To: Linux-IL Subject: grip rips at 4x speed instead of close to CD-ROM full-speed Hi! I have an IDE CD-ROM Drive. It is found on the same IDE interface as a DVD Drive + CD-Rom Burner, which is a different interface than the hard-disks' one. When I use grip 3.0.7 to rip+encode a music CD, it rips it at about 4x, while the CD-ROM drive is 52x. I already used hdparm -E 52 /dev/hdd on the drive and in Windows FreeRIP rips at close to full speed. How can I rip at full speed using grip? Regards, Shlomi Fish -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than getting its license changed. Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: filesystem for database box
I'm not such an FS expert, so please step in to correct me in case I am wrong. All large databases (Oracle, UDB, MSSQL) have two different access patterns for files. One type is data access, one type is log file access. The question is now obviously divided into two questions: Which FS should you use for each type of files? Log files are ALWAYS written to sequentially, and very, very, VERY RARELY read from (usually only when recovering from crashes). I'd go with a journalling FS here. Selecting the most efficient one is left as an exercise for the reader. Data file access is generally random-access while reading (when you need a data block, you need it *now*, usually), and "elevator" access while writing (since the DB chooses when to write data blocks to disk, and does so in a LBA-friendly manner). There are some optimizations which break both those assertions (multi-block read IO and block write pinging in cluster machines), but let's leave those out of the picture for now. Here I would go with raw block devices. if you are unable to go with raw block devices (e.g. because you cannot predict data size, you need data portability (i.e. Oracle's transportable tablespaces)), go with a non-journalling FS, but only since no journalling FS does compaction of files (yet). If they had big-blocked (e.g. 1 block = 16MB) FAT16, with multiple "super-blocks", I would suggest that one. If a journalling FS had some user-space tool for that, and you had a setup that actually allows you to perform a "defrag" (a 24x7 setup probably won't allow it), they you should consider it. However, as these are not available AFAIK, the discussion is rather moot. Just my $0.02 ... Shachar Tal Verint Systems -Original Message- From: Maxim K. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 4:50 PM To: Linux-IL Mailing List Subject: filesystem for database box Hello, Linux People! after short consultation, i have come to this conclusion about which filesystem i should use on my database box (or server) the winner is: ex2 linux extended filesystem, yes, lassies & lads - "why not ext3/Reiser's ?" - "because journalling is already implemented in the DBMS." - "why not jfs then ? - "it is too young, my friends + journalling..." - "why not xfs , it is so ... juicy ? - "it is too resource demanding (i have p2 670MHz + 256 MB )" if somebody thinks otherwise, please tell me why! thank you. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ADSL - What is the current recommendation?
There are many xDSL standards: ADSL (Asymmetric DSL), SDSL (Symmetric DSL), DSL Lite, DSLAM, G.Lite, HDSL, IDSL, RADSL, UDSL, VDSL and more. However, AFAIK, each standard is exactly that - a standard. Shachar Tal Verint Systems -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 3:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ADSL - What is the current recommendation? > Out of curiousity, what about the US Robitics aDSL router? Excelnet > sells them for about 900 NIS, which is a lot of money for one's home, > but not much for a business. Out of curiosity too - how reliable is it to buy any ADSL modem abroad in order to use it in Israel? What should be looked for? Or is ADSL generally standard enough these days to use anything anywere? I'm asking because at least back in the beginning I got the impression that there are many variations and not all ADSL modems were made equal. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OpenVPN, from the 1st of October supports Win32
-Original Message- From: Oded Arbel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 3:44 PM To: Tal, Shachar; 'Eli Marmor'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OpenVPN, from the 1st of October supports Win32 On Thursday 09 October 2003 15:26, Tal, Shachar wrote: > > -Original Message- > > From: Eli Marmor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > It's called "Outlook Web Access" (although it's a part of Exchange; It > > > is just a web-emulation of Outlook). > > > > > > As far as I remember, it supports SSL. > > > > > > There have been always features of Outlook that were not supported by > > > Outlook Web Access, but if I recall correctly, Microsoft claims that > > > the Outlook Web Access of Exchange 2003 finally emulates Outlook > > > perfectly. > > > > > > Which brings us to the important question: will it also (by default, with > > no > easy way to turn it off) > > auto-run viral-attachments,load 1x1-authenticating-gifs, perform > > fill-in-your-favorite-nightmare, on other OSes as well? > > It'll have a hard time running win32 viral executable on Linux. can't really > see it doing that. on a more serious note - its conservative on what it > allows you to display in-line (some might say - paranoid), I even had trouble > getting it to display embedded html images inline. Actually, it can always wine them to some extent. Or bring upon us Linux viruses, for those pesky Lindows users who use their computers as root 100% of the time. > > > In addition, they claim that contrary to past versions, this one runs > > > under non Microsoft browsers, including thin clients such as smart > > > phones and PDAs. I guess it means that there is no dependency on > > > ActiveX etc. > > > > > > I believe that is not pure marketese. A couple of months I saw a (then > > latest) stable build of this product, and it was all ActiveX bells and > > VBScript whistles. > > They use UA detection. I've been using OWA on 5.5 on 2000 for a while now > using Mozilla and konqueror (both handled like Netscape). OWA on 5.5 was > broken but usable, on 2000 its a pretty damned good web mail interface - I > haven't seen many (foss or otherwise) that can rival it. the backend sucks of > course, but there you have it :-). Weird. Perhaps they have taken a step backward with this new version. This demo was given to me by a friend, using Mozilla. -- Oded ::.. When the tide of life turns against you And the current upsets your boat Don't waste tears on what might have been Just lie on your back and float This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OpenVPN, from the 1st of October supports Win32
-Original Message- From: Eli Marmor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 2:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OpenVPN, from the 1st of October supports Win32 > Tzahi Fadida wrote: > > > Exchange have a web interface so maybe ssh will suffice for all your activities. > > in addition its less intrusive since its already installed and would take for > > you time to set up the openVPN. i know how office regs can be some times. > > It's called "Outlook Web Access" (although it's a part of Exchange; It > is just a web-emulation of Outlook). > > As far as I remember, it supports SSL. > > There have been always features of Outlook that were not supported by > Outlook Web Access, but if I recall correctly, Microsoft claims that > the Outlook Web Access of Exchange 2003 finally emulates Outlook > perfectly. Which brings us to the important question: will it also (by default, with no easy way to turn it off) auto-run viral-attachments,load 1x1-authenticating-gifs, perform fill-in-your-favorite-nightmare, on other OSes as well? > In addition, they claim that contrary to past versions, this one runs > under non Microsoft browsers, including thin clients such as smart > phones and PDAs. I guess it means that there is no dependency on > ActiveX etc. I believe that is not pure marketese. A couple of months I saw a (then latest) stable build of this product, and it was all ActiveX bells and VBScript whistles. > -- > Eli Marmor > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > CTO, Founder > Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. > __ > Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. > Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 > Mobile: +972-50-23-7338 Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Open-source webcrawler required
Hi All, I am in need of an (open-source) web crawler (a-la wget), but one that does all of the following: 1. Performs breadth-first search, not depth-first search. (so stopping condition based of disk space will give a wide crawl, rather than a deep crawl). 2. Can let me defined whether to recurse into a link or not, based on criteria (e.g. leaving domain or not being the most obvious, but also by regexping the url etc.) 3. optimally should allow me to provide a lambda function that will return a rating based on page content, so I decide whether to recurse and where to avoid. Anyone? I will write such a thing, if none is found, but really prefer not to. Shachar Tal Verint Systems This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Linux-il archives to be closed
Don't be alarmed regarding WICC's complete lack of response. Having worked for the another university's CC (while being a student), I remember being truely amazed by how much politics alone call the shots in this kind of places, on topic such as salaries, promotions/demotions, who get sabatticals, who gets Erev Chag off and everything in between. Do not expect anyone to side with you in this issue, after exposing this rediculous issue outside WICC. Responses don't have to be implicitly discouraged, it's just the way this places operate. (and if any of my ex-coworkers is reading this, if you're still at those jobs, I salute you for being able to walk between the drops for so long). Just my $0.02, Shachar Tal -Original Message- From: Evgeny Stambulchik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 1:22 PM To: Boris Ratner Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linux-il archives to be closed Boris Ratner wrote: > Evgeny Stambulchik wrote: > >> Of course, it would be possible (albeit far from optimal, IMHO). >> Moreover, this was indeed the solution WICC suggested to me quite a >> while ago, and I accepted it (although, again, I believe that such a >> complication was completely unnecessary). However, on Thursday, I was >> told that the new decision is to block the SMTP traffic to plasma-gate >> completely. > > > I was told that nobody wants to shut down anything. I will check this. > >> So there is a striking difference between what I was told and your >> information. Did you get it after the last Thursday or before? > > > got the mail on Sunday 5.10.2003. Well, that's pretty strange. Unfortunately, I have no formal proof of what I was told since this decision (as well as all others, related to plasma-gate) was conducted to me by a phone call. Of course, Hebrew isn't my native language, but... BTW, when I say "all others" I mean those which were delivered to me at all. In several cases, I found out about new security policies only when something stopped working. >> While we're at that, I'd like to ask you about one favor. Apparently, >> you managed to establish a _technical_ contact with the Information >> Security people - something which I've miserably failed for a very long >> time. So can you please ask them what was the reason to ban >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] addresses in the first place? > > > I will try to find out but as i understand it, the descision to convert > all mail addresses to @wezman.ac.il was > taken close to 3 years a go and @plasma-gate was given an exception back > then with a notice to migrate. I don't know when the decision was taken. But the relevant phone call certainly wasn't earlier than a year ago. Again, I can rely only upon my memory, since the issue clearly wasn't worth a sheet of paper. > Your calculations are correct but lack the "Angry Customer Call" (ACC) > value. > ACC enters the equasion in case of "abnormal incoming mail activity" > which is very common in the last year. So three years ago they foresaw the current flood of email-related Windows viruses? How provisionally smart... Bur apparently, three years weren't enough to install a simple filter (discarding executable types in the attachments) at the official WIS mail gateway. So when the viruses came, a lot of WIS PCs running Windows were affected. Yet, I don't understand why the ACC issue has anything to do with a real server. I believe I don't have to waste everybody's time to explain that the "From:" header in spam and/or worm-generated messages has nothing to do with its real owner. > I can only guess that someone said "We paid lots of money for someone to > write this security policy 3 years a go! > We should implement it to the letter!" Well, this is my opinion, too. I'm glad you got it independently. > IMHO to keep linux-il archive running the address should be changed to > @weizmann.ac.il according to the new > security policy. I see no technical point in treating the robot's address differently from the rest. > Regarding other addresses @plasma-gate : the "addresses on published > papers" is a great argument and might help > you to regain control over your incoming mail - "This security policy > interferes with scientific work!" (this is a good one) > or maybe "Because of the new security policy we'll never finish this > warp-drive engine on time!" :-) > > If you would migrate all addresses to @weizmann and then start bugging > the IT people with every new alias, how > long do you think will take before they will give you @plasma-gate back? Well, if no logical proof is able to alter the policy, that will happen, of course. However, neither myself, nor other members of our group enjoy sado-masochistic exercises, so a less painful resolution would be preferable. BTW, does it trouble only myself, that for the whole week since the issue was publically raised, NOBODY from WICC joined the discussion on either side? Especially given that I k
RE: Networking my new home (or RJ45's vs. WiFi)
There was a recent "Ask Slashdot" article about this exact topic, which I found very helpful (look at the +4/+5 comments). Shachar Tal Verint Systems -Original Message- From: Itay 'z9u2K' Duvdevani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 12:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Networking my new home (or RJ45's vs. WiFi) Hey all, and happy-new-year! I have a network that includes 7 computers, a gateway/firewall, and 6 clients (Mixed Windows and Linux boxes). My gateway uses ADSL to connect to the internet (with an ethernet modem). We are about to virtually re-construct our home, and I would like to do the networking thing wise, and low-cost. I thought about two options... a. putting the modem and the hub in the place the phone line gets into the house and split. This way I can put the RJ45's alongside the telephone lines, in the same pipe. I'll bring two cables to my gateway's room (one for modem and one for the hub), and one cable near each phone-jack in the house. That'll be much cheaper then putting special piping for the RJ's... b. Using wireless network (WiFi?). Should like alot nicer, but: 1. which kernel supports these WiFi-gizmo-Ethernet card, if any? 2. will it be slower then regular RJ's? 3. can it lead to data corruption? 4. is it secure? 5. can a computer connect to the network, if it has a concrete wall between itself and the hub? I'm looking for the cheaper solution, but I need it to work well... Thanks, Itay 'z9u2K' Duvdevani, GNU/Linux Kinneret. Public GPG Key: ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/kinneret/z9u2k.asc = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Propaganda Point (was: Re: linux support companies in Israel)
Tzafir, I beg to differ. Win95 was launched in... errr... '95. Same as NT4 (very early '96 if I am not mistaken). Clearly this 7-8 year period is longer than RedHat's / SuSE's support period. Shachar Tal Verint Systems -Original Message- From: Tzafrir Cohen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 1:56 AM To: linux ILUG Subject: Re: Propaganda Point (was: Re: linux support companies in Israel) On Thu, Sep 18, 2003 at 01:40:09PM +0300, Omer Zak wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Gil Freund wrote: > > > > Before one hails and advocates OSS one has to educated for better IT > > > thinking: > > > Find out what the business requirement are. > > > Strip out MS-talk (mail and scheduling instead of exchange...). > > > List the true functional requirement. > > > Research both closed and open solution. > > > Show case studies. > > > Display the solutions. > > [... snipped ...] > > > Hi Gil, > > > > The points above, combined with the occational BSA ads and articles like > > http://whatsup.co.il/article.php?sid=1972 (9 german cities consider > > moving to Linux instead of paying MS for upgrading their systems next > > year) drive me to a "campeign idea": "Microsoft/BSA scares you? Move to > > Linux". Maybe combined with a "BSA" with a large "X" across it on > > leaflets at Hi-Tech shows. > > Speaking of BSA and M$abuses, how about emphasizing the fact that MS are > withdrawing WinNT support and forcing you to upgrade your legacy WinNT > systems to WinXP if you want patches against threats like MSBlaster or > SoBig.F? Not only for NT. Lately support has been withdrawn for win95 and win98. The support contracts from RH and SuSE for their "enterprise" products is for 5-6 years. More than the time since the launch of both win95 and winnt. > > (Unfortunately, RedHat are shooting the figurative feet, by withdrawing > support for old versions of the RH distribution; but at least 3rd party > support is possible, in principle.) -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Linux on a laptop
Both Linux and Windows 2000. Shachar Tal Verint Systems -Original Message- From: Shlomo Yona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 3:26 PM To: Tal, Shachar Cc: Hetz Ben Hamo; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Linux on a laptop On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Tal, Shachar wrote: > That is utter nonsense. I run both Linux (various kernels) and Windows 2003 > Server with a single VMWare license and without any upgrades. > > Shachar Tal > Verint Systems Which OS actually runs the VMWare? -- Shlomo Yona [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://cs.haifa.ac.il/~shlomo/ This electronic message contains information from Verint Systems, which may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by replying to this email. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
