Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
Why ?? just use wvdialconf ... Anyway, I suggested it for newbees and not for people who know how to write their own pppd scripts. Schlomo On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Oded Arbel wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Ilya Konstantinov wrote: How do customers get it? Schlomo Schapiro wrote: That's exactly why I suggested to know tools like wvdial. It doesn't depend on a distro and is really newbee-safe in it's usage (assuming newbee knows how to logon as root). I even use it myself if I want to dial a one-time connection to some ppp server (like customers). wvdial comes with SuSE , and is easily accessible from YaST (whats with these german guys and the second lowercase letter thing ? ;-) under the networking menu (any clutz can do it, and , believe me, I've ran into some really bad clutzes :-). but I personaly don't like using it, as I can't (or , probably more correct , don't know how to) run it from the command line in a "Just dial exactly like I showed you last time" mode. Oded -- When aiming for the common denominator, be prepared for the occasional division by zero. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
On Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 03:15:32PM +0200, Ilya Konstantinov wrote: How do customers get it? Login from their Windows systems, download it and mount vfat partitions? Or maybe we're should send them CDs? It's really becomes a problem when the only way to help is via phone, and on the other side of the line there's a newbie. Call the ISP's BBS? Tee hee... Or "GO BOR100 on CompuServe" :-) /silly -- believing is seeing [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.forum2.org/gaal/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Ilya Konstantinov wrote: How do customers get it? Schlomo Schapiro wrote: That's exactly why I suggested to know tools like wvdial. It doesn't depend on a distro and is really newbee-safe in it's usage (assuming newbee knows how to logon as root). I even use it myself if I want to dial a one-time connection to some ppp server (like customers). wvdial comes with SuSE , and is easily accessible from YaST (whats with these german guys and the second lowercase letter thing ? ;-) under the networking menu (any clutz can do it, and , believe me, I've ran into some really bad clutzes :-). but I personaly don't like using it, as I can't (or , probably more correct , don't know how to) run it from the command line in a "Just dial exactly like I showed you last time" mode. Oded -- When aiming for the common denominator, be prepared for the occasional division by zero. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
I'm pretty sure YAST comes with PPP setup tools, but having used SUSE for only a short time, I just don't remember how can I guide a user blindly (without knowing menus he sees). At the same time, I find it easy to guide RedHat users as they also have pppd by default and LinuxConf which has PPP configuration. It's all a matter of experience. With helping those newbies, you're better having 5 distros in your head rather than being an experienced sysadmin. Anyway, trained tech support people should help those - not sysadmins :) Schlomo Schapiro wrote: Hi, sorry for interfereing in this nice thread, but why make life difficult ? Simply tell people to use some simple shell-based dialer (like wvdial) that does ALL this stuff. wvdial has been developed exactly for this novice style of users and has a 'wizard' to help you set up your connection. I am not connected to that, but SuSE 6+ comes with it exactly for that purpose (and installs it by default, as well as pppd and kernel modules. Which shows again HOW much depends on using a good distro, especially for newbees). -- Best regards, Ilya Konstantinov a.k.a Toastie [http://toast.demon.co.il] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
Hi, sorry for interfereing in this nice thread, but why make life difficult ? Simply tell people to use some simple shell-based dialer (like wvdial) that does ALL this stuff. wvdial has been developed exactly for this novice style of users and has a 'wizard' to help you set up your connection. I am not connected to that, but SuSE 6+ comes with it exactly for that purpose (and installs it by default, as well as pppd and kernel modules. Which shows again HOW much depends on using a good distro, especially for newbees). Schlomo On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Omer Zak wrote: On 8 Nov 1999, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Omer Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Suggestion for a project for a youngster who is looking for a niche which would give him satisfaction, fame and riches: How about developing PPP configuration scripts for the other distributions? Then the Technical Support would need only to tell the newbie to download the script from their Web site and run it and answer its questions (of course, presented in a nice GUI - which Tk and Python can easily provide). This is nice, but why lock it to a GUI or to Python which may or may not have been installed by the user? And what will Dorit do, being restricted to the command line? And we don't want to forget the poor chap with a 386 that can't run X, or the luser who misconfigured his or bought unsupported hardware. You are right. The basic configuration script's GUI varieties should be similar to the Linux kernel configuration scripts - a version with X-Window GUI, a version with CURSES based GUI, a version which asks you yes/no questions and proceeds accordingly (this one would be helpful for Dorit and for blind persons). How about a simpler solution? What is needed is a set of ppp options files and chat scripts, and we can assume that the user can edit a file somehow. Then it is a matter of writing and testing a set of /etc/ppp/peers/netvision /etc/ppp/peers/actcom .. /etc/ppp/chat/netvision /etc/ppp/chat/actcom .. and spelling out the permissions (well, assuming ppp is installed and compiled into the kernel, /dev/modem has to be there, etc, this has also be mentioned). [... rest of technobabble was snipped ...] The proposed solution is more complicated than what I intended it to be. The script should check whether ppp is installed, build /dev/modem as necessary, auto-detect the modem, install all needed /etc/ppp/peers/* and /etc/ppp/chat/* files, etc. anyone who is not a total idiot can fill in the NUMBERG YOURUSER, and YOURPASSWD in the chat script, and start pppd as The script should prompt the user for those details and fill in the chat scripts. Users who contact the ISP Technical Support for a fee - do so because they don't master vi and don't bother to RTFM. Admittedly, *maybe* some modems need a different set of options (are there such that can't deal with crtscts?), but I expect that there will be very few basic option sets, enumerable. Have the installation script take care of all those pesky details. Is it possible to test the modem and automatically determine whether it supports crtscts etc.? Again, if the user doesn't know how to install PPP or how to compile the kernel, we can assume that someone has done it for him. And I believe we can expect the ability to edit a text file and to chmod according to instructions. sarcasm Yeah, and the user can also be expected to be fluent in English. /sarcasm --- Omer WARNING: By sending me unsolicited commercial/political/religious E-mail message/s (known also as "spam"), you irrevocably agree to pay me US$500.- (plus any legal expenses incurred by my trying to collect the amount due) per unsolicited commercial/political/religious E-mail message - for the service of receiving it. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
Omer Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Suggestion for a project for a youngster who is looking for a niche which
would give him satisfaction, fame and riches:
How about developing PPP configuration scripts for the other
distributions?
Then the Technical Support would need only to tell the newbie to download
the script from their Web site and run it and answer its questions (of
course, presented in a nice GUI - which Tk and Python can easily provide).
This is nice, but why lock it to a GUI or to Python which may or may
not have been installed by the user? And what will Dorit do, being
restricted to the command line? And we don't want to forget the poor
chap with a 386 that can't run X, or the luser who misconfigured his
or bought unsupported hardware.
How about a simpler solution? What is needed is a set of ppp options
files and chat scripts, and we can assume that the user can edit a
file somehow. Then it is a matter of writing and testing a set of
/etc/ppp/peers/netvision
/etc/ppp/peers/actcom
..
/etc/ppp/chat/netvision
/etc/ppp/chat/actcom
..
and spelling out the permissions (well, assuming ppp is installed and
compiled into the kernel, /dev/modem has to be there, etc, this has
also be mentioned).
Given that /etc/ppp/peers/netvision can look as
/dev/modem
115200
debug
lock
modem
crtscts
defaultroute
connect "/usr/sbin/chat -f /etc/ppp/chat/netvision"
and /etc/ppp/chat/netvision -- as
ABORT BUSY ABORT 'NO CARRIER' "" ATZ OK ATZ OK ATDTNUMBER CONNECT "" sername:
YOURUSER assword: YOURPASSWD PPP ""
anyone who is not a total idiot can fill in the NUMBERG YOURUSER,
and YOURPASSWD in the chat script, and start pppd as
/usr/sbin/pppd call netvision
and kill it with
kill `ps auxw | grep [p]ppd | awk '{print $2}'`
(which can also be provided as a script). This does actually work -
that's what I do (well, my dial and hangup scripts are somewhat more
involved) - never had a problem. Well, I haven't dialed into Netvision
for some time - it has to be tested.
This is distribution-independent, GUI-independent, and simple enough
to create and put up on the web site, together with the instructions
that will also be pretty simple. Later on, whoever has free time can
add GUI, bells, whistles, whatever.
Admittedly, *maybe* some modems need a different set of options
(are there such that can't deal with crtscts?), but I expect that
there will be very few basic option sets, enumerable.
Again, if the user doesn't know how to install PPP or how to compile
the kernel, we can assume that someone has done it for him. And I
believe we can expect the ability to edit a text file and to chmod
according to instructions.
--
Oleg Goldshmidt | BLOOMBERG L.P. (BFM) | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"A sense of the fundamental decencies is parceled out
unequally at birth." [F. Scott FitzGerald]
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
Oleg Goldshmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
kill `ps auxw | grep [p]ppd | awk '{print $2}'`
just make it
kill `ps auxw | awk '/[p]ppd/ {print $2}'`
before someone else points it out ;-)
--
Oleg Goldshmidt | BLOOMBERG L.P. (BFM) | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"A sense of the fundamental decencies is parceled out
unequally at birth." [F. Scott FitzGerald]
=
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the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
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Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
Hi Omer, On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Omer Zak wrote: Given the realities of Customer Support as presented by Nir (isn't it wonderful to have access to someone who actually knows what is going on with customers? :-) ), I am amending my suggestion so that PPP configuration scripts (and other technical support scripts) would have a version which doesn't need X-Window. Thanks for the compliment, I guess that after spending the last year doing a projects for a few ISPs, I guess that I kind of like learned the ropes of the ISPs technical support staff. In any case, even scripts won't really cut it, for the novice user that it. Remember, users need and want something simple, quick. I guess it's a problem of us as the X generation (word game). But who knows :-) Best regards, Nir Simionovich . Technionus Dormus Farmus Administratus Regularus . --- Taub Computer Center, Technion Cellphone:054-898834 The Network Flight Recorder Project Phone:04-8282741 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pager:058-474747 Admin : vipe, heller, tux (05437) n-cc, n-teg, n-dorms --- Linux is not an Operating System, It's a way of life - Dare to live it! --- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
On 8 Nov 1999, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Omer Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Suggestion for a project for a youngster who is looking for a niche which would give him satisfaction, fame and riches: How about developing PPP configuration scripts for the other distributions? Then the Technical Support would need only to tell the newbie to download the script from their Web site and run it and answer its questions (of course, presented in a nice GUI - which Tk and Python can easily provide). This is nice, but why lock it to a GUI or to Python which may or may not have been installed by the user? And what will Dorit do, being restricted to the command line? And we don't want to forget the poor chap with a 386 that can't run X, or the luser who misconfigured his or bought unsupported hardware. You are right. The basic configuration script's GUI varieties should be similar to the Linux kernel configuration scripts - a version with X-Window GUI, a version with CURSES based GUI, a version which asks you yes/no questions and proceeds accordingly (this one would be helpful for Dorit and for blind persons). How about a simpler solution? What is needed is a set of ppp options files and chat scripts, and we can assume that the user can edit a file somehow. Then it is a matter of writing and testing a set of /etc/ppp/peers/netvision /etc/ppp/peers/actcom .. /etc/ppp/chat/netvision /etc/ppp/chat/actcom .. and spelling out the permissions (well, assuming ppp is installed and compiled into the kernel, /dev/modem has to be there, etc, this has also be mentioned). [... rest of technobabble was snipped ...] The proposed solution is more complicated than what I intended it to be. The script should check whether ppp is installed, build /dev/modem as necessary, auto-detect the modem, install all needed /etc/ppp/peers/* and /etc/ppp/chat/* files, etc. anyone who is not a total idiot can fill in the NUMBERG YOURUSER, and YOURPASSWD in the chat script, and start pppd as The script should prompt the user for those details and fill in the chat scripts. Users who contact the ISP Technical Support for a fee - do so because they don't master vi and don't bother to RTFM. Admittedly, *maybe* some modems need a different set of options (are there such that can't deal with crtscts?), but I expect that there will be very few basic option sets, enumerable. Have the installation script take care of all those pesky details. Is it possible to test the modem and automatically determine whether it supports crtscts etc.? Again, if the user doesn't know how to install PPP or how to compile the kernel, we can assume that someone has done it for him. And I believe we can expect the ability to edit a text file and to chmod according to instructions. sarcasm Yeah, and the user can also be expected to be fluent in English. /sarcasm --- Omer WARNING: By sending me unsolicited commercial/political/religious E-mail message/s (known also as "spam"), you irrevocably agree to pay me US$500.- (plus any legal expenses incurred by my trying to collect the amount due) per unsolicited commercial/political/religious E-mail message - for the service of receiving it. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
You are all missing a point here. The user calls up when he has a Linux system already set up. With a clean Windows system, it's easy to guide the user through the installation procedure, which is always the same, but with Linux - should the tech support staff dictate the user their elite PPP install script? The user usually doesn't know much english, doesn't type fast and besides that - it's not much fun dictating a case-sensitive-with-special-characters command :) Linuxconf makes it much easier to guide over the phone, that's for sure. Should I depend on the user having a Win95 to download our scripts? Should I guide him how to mount his FAT partition and chmod so he could run our scripts? "Nir Simionovich (Rin Solo)" wrote: Thanks for the compliment, I guess that after spending the last year doing a projects for a few ISPs, I guess that I kind of like learned the ropes of the ISPs technical support staff. In any case, even scripts won't really cut it, for the novice user that it. Remember, users need and want something simple, quick. I guess it's a problem of us as the X generation (word game). But who knows :-) -- Best regards, Ilya Konstantinov a.k.a Toastie [http://toast.demon.co.il] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
Suggestion for a project for a youngster who is looking for a niche which would give him satisfaction, fame and riches: How about developing PPP configuration scripts for the other distributions? Then the Technical Support would need only to tell the newbie to download the script from their Web site and run it and answer its questions (of course, presented in a nice GUI - which Tk and Python can easily provide). Someone with close connection to Technical Support (enough to hear about commonly-occurring problems) can utilize the information to improve the scripts to recognize common problems (such as failure to install an essential package) and solve them automatically (of course, after getting confirmation from the user!). On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Ilya Konstantinov wrote: Anyway, I had by now few customers call up with questions about Linux. Obviously they were newbiews. Guiding to install PPP via Linuxconf is a good solution for RedHat, but some distros just don't have it. Yep, I'm ashamed to admit I don't know the whole PPP scripting procedure by hand but it's kinda complicated to dictate such instructions to type in by phone, especially having to explain how to launch an editor etc etc. As I understand, such tech support should have large experience about the shortest/easiest way to do common tasks on different distros. Especially that we run all our servers on Linux, I sometimes feel uncomfortable about not being able to answer such questions easily. Pretty sure not as easy as Windows 95 tunning is. --- Omer WARNING: By sending me unsolicited commercial/political/religious E-mail message/s (known also as "spam"), you irrevocably agree to pay me US$500.- (plus any legal expenses incurred by my trying to collect the amount due) per unsolicited commercial/political/religious E-mail message - for the service of receiving it. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
Hi Omer, On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Omer Zak wrote: Suggestion for a project for a youngster who is looking for a niche which would give him satisfaction, fame and riches: How about developing PPP configuration scripts for the other distributions? Then the Technical Support would need only to tell the newbie to download the script from their Web site and run it and answer its questions (of course, presented in a nice GUI - which Tk and Python can easily provide). Your idea in it self is wonderful, but I see a small snag about it. In general terms, all login scripts for all ISPs in Israel should be the same. As they are all compatible to the Windows 95 login scheme. If we are to take ISDN connections for example, I've configured kisdn with no special parameters, and it worked like a charm both connecting to Actcom, Netvision, Internet Gold and the Technion, without changing anything. Now, as far as I can recall, each of the X-windows envs, has it's own modem and dial-up configuration program that users can use. But the real problem isn't getting them connected via that tool, the problem is as follows. Imagine the following Tech support phone call: Tech: Hello, how may I help you ? Cust: Hi there, I would like to configure my modem under RedHat 6.0. Tech: Are you currently running in X-Windows ? Cust: No, I can't start my X, it says something about a missing X-Server. I don't have an X-Server in my network. Tech: No, No, and X-Server is . you need to install it. What is your display adapter ? Cust: Oh, I have blah-blah-blah Tech: Oh, I'm sorry, that card isn't supported yet by linux. Ok, lets try a generic blah-blah-blah Cust: Tech: Cust: Ok, I got X going. Now what ? Tech: well, you need to install the blah-blah-blah.rpm Cust: rpm ? I didn't buy a motor, I bought a Linux box, blah-blah-blah Tech: ... Cust: ... Tech: did you install dialup support in your Linux box ? while you were installing it ? Cust: Ah No. I thought it ment that I let other people connect to my modem. At this point the Tech-guy would most probably go crazy, after sending over 30 minutes understanding the customer. So, as I said before, nothing is simple. Never say that it is simple, cause no matter how simple it is to you, cause you are used to one thing, you never know what you might find. What would eventually happen is that ISPs would create their own customized Linux distributions. For example, lets take Actcom, they will make a few distributions for their clients, one as a workstation, one as a dial-up mail server, etc, etc, etc which at this point, seems like the best idea that I could think of. Best regards, Nir Simionovich Artnet Experts, Ltd . Technionus Dormus Farmus Administratus Regularus . --- Taub Computer Center, Technion Cellphone:054-898834 The Network Flight Recorder Project Phone:04-8282741 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pager:058-474747 Admin : vipe, heller, tux (05437) n-cc, n-teg, n-dorms --- Linux is not an Operating System, It's a way of life - Dare to live it! --- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project Proposal (was: Re: SOT: regarding linux-unfriendly ISPs)
Given the realities of Customer Support as presented by Nir (isn't it wonderful to have access to someone who actually knows what is going on with customers? :-) ), I am amending my suggestion so that PPP configuration scripts (and other technical support scripts) would have a version which doesn't need X-Window. On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Nir Simionovich (Rin Solo) wrote: Hi Omer, On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Omer Zak wrote: Suggestion for a project for a youngster who is looking for a niche which would give him satisfaction, fame and riches: How about developing PPP configuration scripts for the other distributions? Then the Technical Support would need only to tell the newbie to download the script from their Web site and run it and answer its questions (of course, presented in a nice GUI - which Tk and Python can easily provide). Your idea in it self is wonderful, but I see a small snag about it. In general terms, all login scripts for all ISPs in Israel should be the same. As they are all compatible to the Windows 95 login scheme. If we are to take ISDN connections for example, I've configured kisdn with no special parameters, and it worked like a charm both connecting to Actcom, Netvision, Internet Gold and the Technion, without changing anything. Now, as far as I can recall, each of the X-windows envs, has it's own modem and dial-up configuration program that users can use. But the real problem isn't getting them connected via that tool, the problem is as follows. Imagine the following Tech support phone call: Tech: Hello, how may I help you ? Cust: Hi there, I would like to configure my modem under RedHat 6.0. Tech: Are you currently running in X-Windows ? Cust: No, I can't start my X, it says something about a missing X-Server. I don't have an X-Server in my network. Tech: No, No, and X-Server is . you need to install it. What is your display adapter ? [... snipped ...] --- Omer WARNING: By sending me unsolicited commercial/political/religious E-mail message/s (known also as "spam"), you irrevocably agree to pay me US$500.- (plus any legal expenses incurred by my trying to collect the amount due) per unsolicited commercial/political/religious E-mail message - for the service of receiving it. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
