Re: Spam handling (was: Re: Israeli ISP and Blacklisting)
2008/7/28 Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ deleted for bravity] As usual - your historic reviews are an interesting and educative read even for those of us who saw some of this action. Thanks! The startup you are reffering to AFAIK is FON from Spain, which allows you to get credit by sharing your Internet connection. You need a special router to join. BT included their software in all of their new routers but so far, no one really uses it. You are probably right. I couldn't remember which country I heard about it but it might as well been Spain (could it also be related to the company which bought Lycos at some stage?) People just don't want to share their Internet connection with strangers and no one wants to pay to get home WiFi access. I don't know about elsewhere but many of my friends in the U.S. and here are so burried in unsecured WiFi networks that they have trouble accessing their own. In a large city it's almost impossible NOT to find a free network. I don't know about you but where I live (outside Israel) I have yet to find an unsecured WiFi network both at home or at work. Maybe when I get my hands on a Nokia E71 (hopefully soon, as part of my mobile provider's upcoming offerings) I'll be able to do more war-driving/war-walking :) Cheers, --Amos
Re: Spam handling (was: Re: Israeli ISP and Blacklisting)
On 28/07/2008, at 08:04, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: I was involved with a start-up ISP that was to provide free access via WiFi. The money for basic access and infrastructure was to come from advertising. I was also, in the US. I don't know what the financial plan was, just the technical aspects. The funding was to come from a guy who owned a handful of radio stations, and wanted to build community wifi in his neighborhood and expand it. I spec'd out the infrastructure, but the project never got off the ground for political reasons. The startup you are reffering to AFAIK is FON from Spain, which allows you to get credit by sharing your Internet connection. You need a special router to join. BT included their software in all of their new routers but so far, no one really uses it. If anyone happens to be in my neighborhood, look for the FON_NETANYA network :) --sambo = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Spam handling (was: Re: Israeli ISP and Blacklisting)
2008/7/27 Omer Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] I noticed that there were no comments about mesh networks with WiFi/packet forwarding. Such things are inherently non-profit. Are they? As far as I remember, the first time I heard about the option for meshed ISP's it was a for-profit organisation allowing clients to ramp up credits for their own use by allowing others to make use of their own uplink via WiFi. --Amos
Re: Spam handling (was: Re: Israeli ISP and Blacklisting)
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 02:02:46PM +1000, Amos Shapira wrote: As far as I remember, the first time I heard about the option for meshed ISP's it was a for-profit organisation allowing clients to ramp up credits for their own use by allowing others to make use of their own uplink via WiFi. I was involved with a start-up ISP that was to provide free access via WiFi. The money for basic access and infrastructure was to come from advertising. This was in 2004 before Google took over advertising, WiFi was common and so on. The startup had a business plan and a prospective investor, some interesting locater technology, and some interesting advertising technology. You could buy credits for advanced services, better access, printing from kiosks and so on. There was a plan to go forward with a targeted advertising handheld device similar in concept to the holograms in Minority Report, but implimented in 2005 or so. Then the City of Jerusalem announced free, city wide WiFi supported by the taxpayers (Intel was to provide the WiFi hardware for free) and the investor disapeared. Google announced their Free WiFi Zones starting with San Francisco, and it became impossible to get money to compete. Since then the Jerusalem City Council refused to fund the network beyond it's original size, few others have come forward to pay for it, and private WiFi networks proliferated because customers would walk out when they found the free WiFi they expected was not there. Google was never able to implement a single WiFi access point in San Francisco, I think the local telcos blocked them. Several other cities have either built small public WiFi networks and since stopped them, or never got beyond the planing stage. The startup you are reffering to AFAIK is FON from Spain, which allows you to get credit by sharing your Internet connection. You need a special router to join. BT included their software in all of their new routers but so far, no one really uses it. People just don't want to share their Internet connection with strangers and no one wants to pay to get home WiFi access. I don't know about elsewhere but many of my friends in the U.S. and here are so burried in unsecured WiFi networks that they have trouble accessing their own. In a large city it's almost impossible NOT to find a free network. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Spam handling (was: Re: Israeli ISP and Blacklisting)
While it is theoretically possible to setup a non-profit ISP, it is not practical. It takes A LOT of money to run an ISP - just the submarine uplinks costs a couple of hundred K's of $ per month, and even if you manage to get a serious staff working for you for free, or almost free (which I doubt, as ISP job is 24/7), you still need to buy expensive hardware, pay Bezeq for realms etc. So, unless you find someone with deep pockets who will fund this operation, I don't see how it is possible. But I do like the idea :) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] בשם Omer Zak Date: Sat 26/07/2008 11:16 To: linux-il Subject: Spam handling (was: Re: Israeli ISP and Blacklisting) On Sat, 2008-07-26 at 00:05 +0300, Ariel Biener wrote: 1. SPAM is here to stay, mostly due to human nature. For people who want to sell something, this is an easy and cheap way to get more clients. This is from the human psychology/sociology point of view Asking myself whether it would have been to snip spam at its bud, by making domain registrars and ISPs more diligent about eliminating spam, my answer is that in the long range it was good that they were not strict. The reason is that not having to deal with spam would have left the networks and applications more vulnerable to a well-timed spam attach, which is bound to occur. 2. SPAM is here to stay, from a technical point of view, due to the fact that SMTP (and the following RFCs that enhance it) were not designed to deal with sender authenticity. In fact, I believe that up to this day, an RFC compliant mail system is required to accept the following: MAIL FROM: The following developments have the potential of changing the above situation: a. Massive switching of PC users from MS-Windows to a more secure OS, removing them out of zombie networks. b. New E-mail protocols, which are designed to prevent spam. Those protocols would supplant and eventually replace the existing ones. c. Legal developments making domain registrars legally liable to the actions of domains registered by them - with possibility of getting off the hook by verifying the identity and addresses of the applicants. 7. I do believe that some people on this list, while they have a theoretical point of view on how things should operate, lack the understanding of how things really turn out to be in the real world of ISP operations. Forgetting that the ISPs first, and foremost interest is to make money and make their shareholders happy is a fatal error, on the part of theoreticians. That however doesn't mean that everything ISPs do is acceptable, and sometimes very far from it. A balanced view however, that understands both the theory, and the practice is needed to be able to solve problems in the real ISP world. Is it possible to set up non-profit ISPs? How about mesh networks, based say upon WiFi and packet forwarding (old Usenet style)? -- 42 is the answer to everything. Food is the answer to everything except obesity. My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Spam handling (was: Re: Israeli ISP and Blacklisting)
On Sat, 2008-07-26 at 17:30 +0300, Imri Zvik wrote: While it is theoretically possible to setup a non-profit ISP, it is not practical. It takes A LOT of money to run an ISP - just the submarine uplinks costs a couple of hundred K's of $ per month, and even if you manage to get a serious staff working for you for free, or almost free (which I doubt, as ISP job is 24/7), you still need to buy expensive hardware, pay Bezeq for realms etc. So, unless you find someone with deep pockets who will fund this operation, I don't see how it is possible. But I do like the idea :) The nonprofit ISP's costs would be covered by payments from its clients, just like for-profit ISPs. The difference is that management will answer to clients (via board of their representative, say) rather than to profit-seeking owners. Therefore the utility function to be optimized will be to give the clients the best service possible at a given cost, rather than to maximize the owners' profits regardless. Another way to express it is that it is analogous to: by buying subscription to the ISP's service, a client gets a share in the ISP (to be surrendered when he terminates his subscription). So he would support a management which gives him good service rather than pay him higher dividends. I noticed that there were no comments about mesh networks with WiFi/packet forwarding. Such things are inherently non-profit. --- Omer -- Philip Machanick: caution: if you write code like this, immediately after you are fired the person assigned to maintaining your code after you leave will resign My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
