[OFFTOPIC] Sending CVs in other formats (was: Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew)

2002-01-19 Thread Omer Zak


On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:

 Hi Dvir,
 
 I respect MR. Stallman opinion, but I still say he's lunatic and I really 
 don't care how much flames I'll get. I'm looking at the real world here in 
 Israel for example - I'm unmployeed and whenever I'm trying to send my CV as 
 a text, HTML or PDF I get shouts from the HR department that my CV is 
 unreadable or unprintable - when I send then Word 97 document - they're 
 happy...

I am surprised that HTML documents are unreadable or unprintable.  I
thought that MS-Word imports properly HTML documents exported by it.

And what happens if someone sends in RTF or simple text (in English)
format?
 --- Omer
There is no IGLU Cabal.  We receive applications only in straight text
format - UTF8, bidirectional text presented in Logical ordering, you
supply line breaks and you take care of accents.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html


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RE: [OFFTOPIC] Sending CVs in other formats (was: Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew)

2002-01-19 Thread Tzahi Fadida

Internet explorer 5.5+ can print/preview internet pages and individual frames, which 
is probably the
majority of browser choice in HR departments in Israel.
Works great btw.
Just to sympathize, I concur that when dealing with your future some prefer playing it 
safe and some don't,
its just the way it is.

* - * - *
Tzahi Fadida
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fax (+1 Outside the US) 240-597-3213
* - * - * - * - * - *


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of 
Omer Zak
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 2:43 PM
To: Hetz Ben Hamo
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [OFFTOPIC] Sending CVs in other formats (was: Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew)



On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:

 Hi Dvir,
 
 I respect MR. Stallman opinion, but I still say he's lunatic and I really 
 don't care how much flames I'll get. I'm looking at the real world here in 
 Israel for example - I'm unmployeed and whenever I'm trying to send my CV as 
 a text, HTML or PDF I get shouts from the HR department that my CV is 
 unreadable or unprintable - when I send then Word 97 document - they're 
 happy...

I am surprised that HTML documents are unreadable or unprintable.  I
thought that MS-Word imports properly HTML documents exported by it.

And what happens if someone sends in RTF or simple text (in English)
format?
 --- Omer
There is no IGLU Cabal.  We receive applications only in straight text
format - UTF8, bidirectional text presented in Logical ordering, you
supply line breaks and you take care of accents.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html


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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-14 Thread Oleg Goldshmidt

Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 What about RTF?

Let me repeat my question: what tools can read/write RTF (English)
under Linux? StarOffice does, and KWord doesn't, AFAIK. Anything *but*
SO?

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
If it ain't broken, it has not got enough features yet.

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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-14 Thread Ira Abramov

On 14 Jan 2002, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:

  What about RTF?

 Let me repeat my question: what tools can read/write RTF (English)
 under Linux? StarOffice does, and KWord doesn't, AFAIK. Anything *but*
 SO?

looks like more things convert to rather than from, but here's a short
list I got you without even passing the IPstack doorstep into the
web...

[ira@bonobo ~]$ apt-cache search rtf
abiword - WYSIWYG word processor based on GTK.
beancounter - A stock portfolio performance monitoring tool
docbook-dsssl - Modular DocBook DSSSL stylesheets, for print and HTML
docbook-utils - Convert Docbook files to other formats (HTML, RTF, Postscript, PDF)
enscript - Converts ASCII text to Postscript, HTML, RTF or Pretty-Print
gnome-pm - GNOME stock portfolio manager
jade - James Clark's DSSSL Engine
latex2rtf - Convert LaTeX to Microsoft RTF format
librtf-document-perl - Perl extension for generating Rich Text (RTF) Files
linuxdoc-tools - SGML converters for the LinuxDoc DTD only.
openjade - Implementation of the DSSSL language
robodoc - A program documentation tool.
rtf2htm - RTF to HTML converter that supports tables, fonts and images
rtf2latex - Convert RTF files to LaTeX
scite - Lightweight GTK-based Programming Editor
sdf - Simple Document Parser
sdf-doc - Documentation and examples for the Simple Document Parser
sgmltools-lite - convert DocBook SGML source into HTML using DSSSL
ted - Graphical RTF (Rich Text Format) editor, lesstif version
ted-common - common files used by ted and ted-gtk
troffcvt - Converts troff source to HTML, RTF, and plain text.
xpw - the Pathetic Writer word-processor

now search freshmeat for more :)

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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-14 Thread Oleg Goldshmidt

Ira Abramov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 now search freshmeat for more :)

I wonder if this is worthwhile. You gave a rather long list of tools
that don't do what I asked. Given that latex2rtf and rtf2latex don't
work at all (last time I checked - a few months ago - their
documentation even warned about it, and I verified that by installing
and trying them), the only stuff to check is abiword and ted...

Thanks,

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
If it ain't broken, it has not got enough features yet.

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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Eli Marmor

Matitiahu Allouche wrote:

 - does it import Hebrew winWord?
 Answer: yes!

I think IBM deserves a big Shkoyech (cheers? thanks?) for the whole
project, even without this critical feature.

And this specific feature, is the most important, at least in my humble
opinion. Just think about the possibilities that this feature opens...

-- 
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Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd.
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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Nadav Har'El

On Sun, Jan 13, 2002, Eli Marmor wrote about Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew:
  - does it import Hebrew winWord?
  Answer: yes!
..
 And this specific feature, is the most important, at least in my humble
 opinion. Just think about the possibilities that this feature opens...

It opens the possibility that now that you can finally read Hebrew Word
files, some annoying Microsoft-addict will send you a Hebrew Powerpoint,
MS-Project, or whatever kind of file that you still cannot read ;)

I always get people sending me emails with these kinds of formats. I try
to convince these people that the formats they are using are formats for
*editing*, and since I don't intend to edit the stuff they send me, they
should use some sort of hardcopy format, like Postscript or PDF; Not to
mention that Postscript and PDF are much more standard, can be viewed or
printed on virtually any machine on earth and are much more stable (they
don't change radically on every release).
But it's like talking to a wall - as far as Microsoft addicts are concerned,
Windows is the only OS that exists, and therefore the only relevant standards
are the ones Microsoft invent.

P.S. If any of you have been trying to use ivrix.org.il in the last few days,
the machine is down since Thursday because some smart-alec unplugged it(!).
And just when it reached 330 days uptime ;)
It should be up and running again by this evening, hopefully.

-- 
Nadav Har'El|   Sunday, Jan 13 2002, 29 Tevet 5762
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |-
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |This message contains 100% recycled
http://nadav.harel.org.il   |characters.

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RE: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Dvir Volk

Richard Stallman of GNU just published an interesting article on
newsforge on the subject, titled We can put an end to Word
attachments.
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/01/10/1711238mode=thread

and by the way, KWord can edit hebrew MSWord documents rather decently.



 Dvir Volk
 Editor in Chief
 Nana by NetVision 
 

_
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Tel: 03-5652585 |  Fax:03-6241952 |
http://www.netvision.net.il  http://www.nana.co.il
 NetVision LTD. Omega Center, Matam Haifa 31905
 




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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Ira Abramov

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:

 I always get people sending me emails with these kinds of formats. I try
 to convince these people that the formats they are using are formats for
 *editing*, and since I don't intend to edit the stuff they send me, they
 should use some sort of hardcopy format, like Postscript or PDF; Not to

eyery workstation in the world, at a probability of 90%-95%, has a Word
Viewer program of some sort. much less than 20% have a running PDF or
Postscript viewers, much less a proper PDF or postscript export filter
(those usually cost extra or are plain crappy, like the internal M$ EPS
driver)

don't be a bonehead please. the solution is plaintext or at the worst
case HTML.

 mention that Postscript and PDF are much more standard, can be viewed or

more standardIZED, but not de-facto more popular.

 P.S. If any of you have been trying to use ivrix.org.il in the last few days,
 the machine is down since Thursday because some smart-alec unplugged it(!).
 And just when it reached 330 days uptime ;)

the bastard!

I can assure you no Alecs are working at Actcom (maybe an Alexei or
two), especially not the smart ones. come join forces :)

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RE: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Ira Abramov

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Dvir Volk wrote:

 Richard Stallman of GNU just published an interesting article on
 newsforge on the subject, titled We can put an end to Word
 attachments.
 http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/01/10/1711238mode=thread

 and by the way, KWord can edit hebrew MSWord documents rather decently.

interesting. it seems like anything I try to load on it (not just
Hebrew) explodes, it's not even beta grade. does it save as word at all?
because if it saves only as kword, it's not very useful for businesses
yet either (apart from the instability)

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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Oleg Goldshmidt

Dvir Volk [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 and by the way, KWord can edit hebrew MSWord documents rather decently.

I never managed as much as open Word documents (English) with KWord.
If I did, I would not have bothered with StarOffice, most probably...

Incidentally, what is the best Linux tool to read RTF (besides
StarOffice)?

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
If it ain't broken, it has not got enough features yet.

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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Oleg Goldshmidt

Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 It opens the possibility that now that you can finally read Hebrew Word
 files, some annoying Microsoft-addict will send you a Hebrew Powerpoint,
 MS-Project, or whatever kind of file that you still cannot read ;)

Or, as reported on /. recently, a ZIP file containing a PowerPoint
presentation containing one slide containing a bitmap image of a
scanned printout of an email message...

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
If it ain't broken, it has not got enough features yet.

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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Tzafrir Cohen

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:

 On Sun, Jan 13, 2002, Eli Marmor wrote about Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew:
   - does it import Hebrew winWord?
   Answer: yes!
 ..
  And this specific feature, is the most important, at least in my humble
  opinion. Just think about the possibilities that this feature opens...

 It opens the possibility that now that you can finally read Hebrew Word
 files,

For a simple MSWord viewer, try wv. Use it to convert the document to html
and view it. Sadly the conversion to latex is not useful currently for
hebrew documents, so their automatic conversion to postscript, for
instance, won't work with ebrew docs.

BTW: wv is being used as an import library of abiword (and of kword?)

 some annoying Microsoft-addict will send you a Hebrew Powerpoint,
 MS-Project, or whatever kind of file that you still cannot read ;)

With what tools can I read those formats under linux (leaving hebrew aside
for the moment)

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir



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RE: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Dvir Volk

  and by the way, KWord can edit hebrew MSWord documents 
 rather decently.
 
 interesting. it seems like anything I try to load on it (not just
 Hebrew) explodes, it's not even beta grade. does it save as 
 word at all?
 because if it saves only as kword, it's not very useful for businesses
 yet either (apart from the instability)

with koffice 1.1 i've managed to open Word97 files without a problem
(haven't tried Word2000 yet, but the koffice site states that kword can
also import Word2000 files in a good level of support, although it
can't export to word format.).
but true enough, kword is unstable and inconvenient.


Dvir Volk
Editor in Chief
Nana by NetVision 
 

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[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Tel: 03-5652585 |  Fax:03-6241952 |
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NetVision LTD. Omega Center, Matam Haifa 31905
 



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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Hetz Ben Hamo

Hi Dvir,

I respect MR. Stallman opinion, but I still say he's lunatic and I really 
don't care how much flames I'll get. I'm looking at the real world here in 
Israel for example - I'm unmployeed and whenever I'm trying to send my CV as 
a text, HTML or PDF I get shouts from the HR department that my CV is 
unreadable or unprintable - when I send then Word 97 document - they're 
happy...

BTW - since you're the editor in Nana, then allow me to take this chance and 
to ask Nana to either upgrade or do something about their Chats applets - 
it's only running on Netscape 4.X (which crashes a lot) and I cannot use it 
not with Sun's latest JRE, nor with IBM's JRE - so I can't use it in 
Konqueror, Galeon, Mozilla, Opera and others. Same goes to Mac users...

Could someone upgrade it please? I know that Netfun (a.k.a - the bastards) 
supplied you with only that version - but for the price that you pay for this 
applet ($1,000!) I think you deserve an upgrade to more-standards JRE's..

Hetz

On Sunday 13 January 2002 15:15, Dvir Volk wrote:
 Richard Stallman of GNU just published an interesting article on
 newsforge on the subject, titled We can put an end to Word
 attachments.
 http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/01/10/1711238mode=thread

 and by the way, KWord can edit hebrew MSWord documents rather decently.


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RE: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Dvir Volk

Hi

about stallman's article - as always, he's not a lunatic but an
idealist.
but the anti-word movement must come from the users, even MS users:
personally, i hate word attachments mainly because they are big and tend
to eat out my memory when i work with win98 on my office computer. i
edit articles only on notepad (word's speller sucks anyway), and so do
most of my employees. when exchanging documents over mail i encourage
all our staff to use plain inline text, if they want a response within
less than a two days ;-). because there's nothing like receiving a 1MB
attachment with a single page document containing three lines and a .bmp
company logo. and if HR people will only understand that, we'd all be
better off.

about our chat - i've already asked our chat admin to ask netfun for a
version that will work on all platforms. meanwhile you can make do with
the advanced chat we have - i know it kinda sucks, but it's better
than nothing. hope netfun will provide us with a new version soon. i'll
notify this list when he does... 
cheers,


 Dvir Volk
 Editor in Chief
 Nana by NetVision 


_
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Tel: 03-5652585 |  Fax:03-6241952 |
http://www.netvision.net.il  http://www.nana.co.il
 NetVision LTD. Omega Center, Matam Haifa 31905
 


 -Original Message-
 From: Hetz Ben Hamo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:00 PM
 To: Dvir Volk; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew
 
 
 Hi Dvir,
 
 I respect MR. Stallman opinion, but I still say he's lunatic 
 and I really 
 don't care how much flames I'll get. I'm looking at the real 
 world here in 
 Israel for example - I'm unmployeed and whenever I'm trying 
 to send my CV as 
 a text, HTML or PDF I get shouts from the HR department that my CV is 
 unreadable or unprintable - when I send then Word 97 
 document - they're 
 happy...
 
 BTW - since you're the editor in Nana, then allow me to take 
 this chance and 
 to ask Nana to either upgrade or do something about their 
 Chats applets - 
 it's only running on Netscape 4.X (which crashes a lot) and I 
 cannot use it 
 not with Sun's latest JRE, nor with IBM's JRE - so I can't use it in 
 Konqueror, Galeon, Mozilla, Opera and others. Same goes to 
 Mac users...
 
 Could someone upgrade it please? I know that Netfun (a.k.a - 
 the bastards) 
 supplied you with only that version - but for the price that 
 you pay for this 
 applet ($1,000!) I think you deserve an upgrade to 
 more-standards JRE's..
 
 Hetz
 
 On Sunday 13 January 2002 15:15, Dvir Volk wrote:
  Richard Stallman of GNU just published an interesting article on
  newsforge on the subject, titled We can put an end to Word
  attachments.
  http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/01/10/1711238mode=thread
 
  and by the way, KWord can edit hebrew MSWord documents 
 rather decently.
 
 

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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Tzafrir Cohen

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:

 Hi Dvir,

 I respect MR. Stallman opinion, but I still say he's lunatic and I really
 don't care how much flames I'll get. I'm looking at the real world here in
 Israel for example - I'm unmployeed and whenever I'm trying to send my CV as
 a text, HTML or PDF I get shouts from the HR department that my CV is
 unreadable or unprintable - when I send then Word 97 document - they're
 happy...

What about RTF?

It generally takes more place (due to a very inefficient encoding of
hebrew. Something in the lines of quoted-printable) but it is readable by
any decent word processor (word95/7/0/xp, qtext, etc.)
In fact, maybe you can simply take an RTF document, give it a .doc
extension, and feed it to word as a word document (this is roughly what
word200's hebrew word97/95 export filter does)


Arguments that can be raised against using MS-Word:

1. non-standard
2. too-powerful: may carry macro virii
3. bloated: takes too much space



Other alternatives:

Text:

  Probably the most standard. Anybody with a certain degree of hebrew
  support in the OS can read a ISO-8850-8-i/CP1255 hebrew text file. It
  also has the advantage of having a minimal space consumption.

  Problems:

  * Bad at saving formatting (although not as bad as people think).
Export routines of word processors can preserve paragraphs,
numbering and bullts. But probably cannot preserve *emphasys*
  * Not always trivial to use text from there (espcially if it has
complex formatting)


HTML:

  Text with some formatting. When used efficiently can produce
  relatively compact text files. Can preserve at least most of the
  formatting (at least the important bits).

  Problems:

  * Word2000's HTML export tends to be quite bloated (but not as the
original document, I believe)
  * When explorer is used to read HTML files, they are not safe of
ms-integration-virii
  * Not always trivial to use text from there (espcially if it has
complex formatting)


PDF:

  A read-only text format that preserves almost all of the formatting.
  Can be made quite compact.

  Problems:

  * A read-only format (Spare me the notes that it is not exactly true).
Although for some uses it is an advantage
  * A viewer for that format is not common enough.
  * Most windows users don't have the software to produce a compact
hebrew PDF document.


PostScript:

  Genrally the same advantages and disadvantages of PDF. The viewer is
  even less common, and the format is a bit less rich (e.g: URLs)


RTF:

  This basically preserves the formatting, and allows further editing.

  Problems: size is bloated. I'm not sure about virii.



-- 
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir




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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-13 Thread Uri Bruck



Thanks,
Uri
http://translation.israel.net

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

 What about RTF?
 
 It generally takes more place (due to a very inefficient encoding of
 hebrew. Something in the lines of quoted-printable) but it is readable by
 any decent word processor (word95/7/0/xp, qtext, etc.)
 In fact, maybe you can simply take an RTF document, give it a .doc
 extension, and feed it to word as a word document (this is roughly what
 word200's hebrew word97/95 export filter does)

Why would you need to change the extension?
Word reads rtf as-is. So does Wordpad



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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-11 Thread Matitiahu Allouche

1) It is not possible for IBM to contribute fonts, because of legal 
reasons.

2) It imports Office 97 and 2k.  There are a few known problems, but most 
features work ok.

Shalom (Regards),  Mati
   Bidi Architect
   Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts
   IBM Israel
   Phone: +972 2 5870999  ext. 1202Fax: +972 2 5870333 Mobile: 
+972 52 554160


To:Matitiahu Allouche/Israel/IBM@IBMIL, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc: 
Subject:Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2 more questions:

1. fonts: Do I need to have my fonts from my Windows partition or does IBM
contributes some fonts?

2. which Hebrew word files does it imports currently? Office 97, 2K and 
XP?
are there any known problems in the filters?

Thanks,
Hetz


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StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-10 Thread Ira Abramov

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Matitiahu Allouche wrote:

 employees.  The distribution outside IBM is currently on hold until some
 legal points (copyrights etc...) are solved.  I don't know when this will
 happen.  Brothers and sisters, join me in a silent prayer...

well, if we can't have the program, we can interrogate Mati in the
meantime :)

- is it for Open Office or just the commercial StarOffice?
- does it import Hebrew winWord?
- is the support only for the wordproc or also for the presentation and
  other tools?
- is it for editing AND interface (menus) or can I mix and match?

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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-10 Thread Matitiahu Allouche

I am not sure what I am allowed to say before the legal patrol comes to 
arrest me.  Anyway, as long as it (or I) last...

Ira Abramov asked:

- is it for Open Office or just the commercial StarOffice?
Answer: OpenOffice

- does it import Hebrew winWord?
Answer: yes!

- is the support only for the wordproc or also for the presentation and
  other tools?
Answer: only the wordproc for this cycle

- is it for editing AND interface (menus) or can I mix and match?
Answer: I am not sure what you mean.  We have not translated the 
interface, a fortiori we have not mirrored it.

Shalom (Regards),  Mati
   Bidi Architect
   Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts
   IBM Israel
   Phone: +972 2 5870999  ext. 1202Fax: +972 2 5870333 Mobile: 
+972 52 554160


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Re: StarOffice - IBM's Hebrew

2002-01-10 Thread Hetz Ben Hamo

2 more questions:

1. fonts: Do I need to have my fonts from my Windows partition or does IBM 
contributes some fonts?

2. which Hebrew word files does it imports currently? Office 97, 2K and XP? 
are there any known problems in the filters?

Thanks,
Hetz

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