Re: northeast power outage
On Fri, 2003-08-15 at 16:08, Collins Richey wrote: No, the truth is out. Hillary has spoken: GWB is at fault, as always. GWB? -- burns ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: northeast power outage
Jack Berger wrote: Well, could be, but... Ted Kopel interviewed FORMER fed cyber security czar Richard Clark. What a self serving piece of work this guy is, insinuating that this is the work of terrorist hackers, since the electrical system was designed to contain this type of outage to a small area. (Yeah under the load conditions of 20-30 years ago!) Sensationalism at its best. The truth is that everyone wants/loves/needs electricity, but no one wants to pay for it in terms of building the necessary infrastructure to support it (NIMBY). Large portions of the existing electrical grid are operating at or near the operating limits and stability margins they were designed for. The dynamics of the inter-connected power grids is very complex. In some areas it doesn't take much to cause an outage or disturbance, which depending on the magnitude, and where it occurs, can cascade to neighboring locations. Most of the grid can handle a voltage sag. The problem is when some segments of the grid trip off-line they cause phase shifts on the system, which are harder to deal with. Maybe this is the wake up call that we need to upgrade the existing system to (at least) current demand. -jhb- [ Greets list, I apologize for the length ] I don't agree with you. However, the case for modernization for something is made everyday in government circles. Government has always been slow to change. Only real political will has ever moved government along. I'm pretty sure that the governments from both countries will adopt a new policy for power interconnection to be agreed upon, but those developments will never address the current issue I believe is occuring out there. Bill Campbell's reply to your thread is actually closer to the truth than you may think. The problem, I believe, could be that the existing system between Ontario and the US simply ran out of power, and the failure was due to the power drain because of the excessively hot weather. ( that, and around 4 million stoves turning on to cook dinner, because it was 4:00pm after all ) You people not from Canada may not be aware of what happened in Ontario, May to Sept 19th 2002 last year, so I will try to give as many facts, with as little space as possible; Following de-regulation of the PUBLIC works known as HYDRO 1 to private contractors last MAY 2002, 8 power plants faculities including 2 nuclear plants that were promised to be maintained after sale were closed and dismantled within 1 month after the sale. The given reason: after another re-assessment these private contractors conducted 2 weeks after the deal, these contractors concluded that these keeping these plants online was excessively expensive non-money makers, and at a spare capacity that the provincial population could not possibly use or pay for. What these private companies did: Prices for residential electrical then rose 300% by JULY 2002, and the in certain locations of ONTARIO people's homes were being isolated and the power turned off if the customer was unable to make payment. The elderly on fixed incomes, and the very young on low wages, were the people having trouble paying new rate hikes, and their power was shut off. 300% in under 4 months was too much for anyone to take. A cry for independant audit was demanded by about 100 lawyers and 5 judges. The Public outcry in AUG came to a head, and by SEPT 12th, when the AUDITOR GENERAL reviewed the situation, and tabled the results publicly. Premier Ernie Els then stepped in, reduced the rates to pre-MAY prices, refunded all customers the over charges. [ Premier is equivalent to a US STATE Governor ] ELS then locked in all those reduced power rates for 4 years at the pre-MAY 2002 levels, pleasing the public, despite the complaints of the new independant private power contractors. ONTARIO has been since then for the last year saving money trying to re-purchase the parts to try and reactivate the 6 gas burners and re-condition the 2 nuclear plants, but it will not happen before the next provincial election. [ 2004 late ] So, I wouldn't be surprised if the result of the combined US-Canadian investigation turns up that there wasn't enough power to supply the Canadian-US Eastern Seaboard. ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: northeast power outage
No, I don't think we disagree on this. I just didn't expound on the underlying reason for the current mess in the power system. That is DE-REGULATION of the industry. -jhb- From: Tom Marinis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack Berger wrote: The truth is that everyone wants/loves/needs electricity, but no one wants to pay for it in terms of building the necessary infrastructure to support it (NIMBY)... I don't agree with you. However, the case for modernization for something is made everyday in government circles. ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: OT northeast power outage
I am not sure that regulation or de-regulation is really the problem. It seems to me to be this strange, hybrid, government solution that is both and neither. If we want competition, deregulate the WHOLE thing and allow competition. If we want regulation, stop pretending that the power companies should turn a profit and be listed on the exchanges. Anything else is silly and doesn't work very well. -- Alma Jack Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:32:55 -0500 No, I don't think we disagree on this. I just didn't expound on the underlying reason for the current mess in the power system. That is DE-REGULATION of the industry. -jhb- From: Tom Marinis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jack Berger wrote: The truth is that everyone wants/loves/needs electricity, but no one wants to pay for it in terms of building the necessary infrastructure to support it (NIMBY)... I don't agree with you. However, the case for modernization for something is made everyday in government circles. ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: OT northeast power outage
On Sat, 2003-08-16 at 22:32, Ken Moffat wrote: And if deregulated, what company will fix the lines that lead to Antler, Minnesota, or Carnduff, Saskatchewan? Well there's deregulation and there's privatization. Ma Bell services areas that are not commercially viable because it is a condition of their license. -- burns ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: OT northeast power outage
On Sat, 2003-08-16 at 23:11, Ken Moffat wrote: I understand there is a move by Rumsfeld to privatize the armed forces. Source out all the support functions, just leaving the bullet shooters in the service. I'm pretty sure they won't deregulate! ;-) That's been going on for at least 20 years. The US Navy has outsourced some of their submarine bases that long. One in particular that I visited was being almost entirely run (except for a Marine security force) by PANAM. Many of the US DoD oversees facilities, including those in forward areas such as Bosnia, have been run by large US corporation under contract. -- burns ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: northeast power outage
As interesting as this off-topic thread may be, please continue it on [EMAIL PROTECTED], so that those who are more interested in linux questions don't need to follow along. [ snips ] On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 05:55:24 -0700 Tom Marinis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jack Berger wrote: Well, could be, but... Ted Kopel interviewed FORMER fed cyber security czar Richard Clark. What a self serving piece of work this guy is, insinuating that this is the work of terrorist hackers, since the electrical system was designed to contain this type of outage to a small area. (Yeah under the load conditions of 20-30 years ago!) Sensationalism at its best. The truth is that everyone wants/loves/needs electricity, but no one wants to pay for it in terms of building the necessary infrastructure to support it (NIMBY). Large portions of the existing electrical grid are operating at or near the operating limits and stability margins they were designed for. Maybe this is the wake up call that we need to upgrade the existing system to (at least) current demand. -jhb- I don't agree with you. However, the case for modernization for something is made everyday in government circles. Government has always been slow to change. Only real political will has ever moved government along. I'm pretty sure that the governments from both countries will adopt a new policy for power interconnection to be agreed upon, but those developments will never address the current issue I believe is occuring out there. The problem, I believe, could be that the existing system between Ontario and the US simply ran out of power, and the failure was due to the power drain because of the excessively hot weather. ( that, and around 4 million stoves turning on to cook dinner, because it was 4:00pm after all ) You people not from Canada may not be aware of what happened in Ontario, May to Sept 19th 2002 last year, so I will try to give as many facts, with as little space as possible; [ typical deregulation scenario snipped ] ONTARIO has been since then for the last year saving money trying to re-purchase the parts to try and reactivate the 6 gas burners and re-condition the 2 nuclear plants, but it will not happen before the next provincial election. [ 2004 late ] The combination of greedy private enterprise (there is no other kind, that's just the nature of the beast) and the radical environmentalist fringe (horses and bicycles are good enough for me; sorry about the rest of you folks) is always fatal to the public interest. Somewhere in the golden middle between these two extremes lies a public policy that can insure adequate power for all of us. Unfortunately, in this country, the Republican contingent frequently only caters to the private enterprise side of the equation, and the Democract contingent only has eyes for the radical environmentalist fringe (if your only concern is global warming, who really cares if there is no electric power?). I'm afraid that there may be no good in the middle solution. -- Collins Richey - Denver Area if you fill your heart with regrets of yesterday and the worries of tomorrow, you have no today to be thankful for. ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: northeast power outage
Jack Berger wrote: Maybe this is the wake up call that we need to upgrade the existing system to (at least) current demand. All true. And it's not as if this is the first time such a thing has happened. The proper name for it is: Dancing on the edge of the cliff. Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: northeast power outage
Detriot did it! On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:25:33 -0500 - Jack Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote the following Re: northeast power outage Tom Marinis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beside, nothing more will happen today, since the NORTHEAST power outage occured around 2:00pm PST, 5:00pm EST. [ Probably a power generator being controlled by POWER MANAGER, and that computer suffered a MS windows BSOD fault ] Well, could be, but... Ted Kopel interviewed FORMER fed cyber security czar Richard Clark. What a self serving piece of work this guy is, insinuating that this is the work of terrorist hackers, since the electrical system was designed to contain this type of outage to a small area. (Yeah under the load conditions of 20-30 years ago!) Sensationalism at its best. The truth is that everyone wants/loves/needs electricity, but no one wants to pay for it in terms of building the necessary infrastructure to support it (NIMBY). Large portions of the existing electrical grid are operating at or near the operating limits and stability margins they were designed for. The dynamics of the inter-connected power grids is very complex. In some areas it doesn't take much to cause an outage or disturbance, which depending on the magnitude, and where it occurs, can cascade to neighboring locations. Most of the grid can handle a voltage sag. The problem is when some segments of the grid trip off-line they cause phase shifts on the system, which are harder to deal with. Maybe this is the wake up call that we need to upgrade the existing system to (at least) current demand. -jhb- ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: northeast power outage
Well, what does the average person want to know about? The power grid or lifestyles of the rich and famous or American idol? We get what we deserve. Engineers are SO boring. And, the environmentalists will fight attempts to increase power generation, except by building wind farms (aka environmentally destructive tax ripoffs), which, as I understand it, make the grid more unstable, not less. So, as we decline as a great power and evolve into a third world country (California is just the beginning, and things will pick up speed), occasional power outages will be a minor inconvenience. Joel On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 07:55:39AM -0500, Michael Hipp wrote: Jack Berger wrote: Maybe this is the wake up call that we need to upgrade the existing system to (at least) current demand. All true. And it's not as if this is the first time such a thing has happened. The proper name for it is: Dancing on the edge of the cliff. Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
RE: northeast power outage
Depending on where you are, the generation capacity may be adequate (excluding CA), transmission capacity is the limiting factor in many regions. And with dereg allowing or encouraging people to buy power anywhere and ship it across the country, some marginal lines are further taxed. -Original Message- From: Joel Hammer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: northeast power outage Well, what does the average person want to know about? The power grid or lifestyles of the rich and famous or American idol? We get what we deserve. Engineers are SO boring. And, the environmentalists will fight attempts to increase power generation, except by building wind farms (aka environmentally destructive tax ripoffs), which, as I understand it, make the grid more unstable, not less. So, as we decline as a great power and evolve into a third world country (California is just the beginning, and things will pick up speed), occasional power outages will be a minor inconvenience. Joel On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 07:55:39AM -0500, Michael Hipp wrote: Jack Berger wrote: Maybe this is the wake up call that we need to upgrade the existing system to (at least) current demand. All true. And it's not as if this is the first time such a thing has happened. The proper name for it is: Dancing on the edge of the cliff. Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: northeast power outage
I'm glad I live where I do. All power is supplied by dams and except for storms or natural disasters we dont lose power. All our overage goes to NSP which is the ND,MN grid. I talksed to my sister who is employed by a firm in Milwaukee that monitors transmission/usage. She says that DE went down first. She has no idea why, just that Detroit was the first to go black. On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:18:22 -0500 - Jack Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote the following Re: RE: northeast power outage Depending on where you are, the generation capacity may be adequate (excluding CA), transmission capacity is the limiting factor in many regions. And with dereg allowing or encouraging people to buy power anywhere and ship it across the country, some marginal lines are further taxed. -Original Message- From: Joel Hammer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: northeast power outage Well, what does the average person want to know about? The power grid or lifestyles of the rich and famous or American idol? We get what we deserve. Engineers are SO boring. And, the environmentalists will fight attempts to increase power generation, except by building wind farms (aka environmentally destructive tax ripoffs), which, as I understand it, make the grid more unstable, not less. So, as we decline as a great power and evolve into a third world country (California is just the beginning, and things will pick up speed), occasional power outages will be a minor inconvenience. Joel On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 07:55:39AM -0500, Michael Hipp wrote: Jack Berger wrote: Maybe this is the wake up call that we need to upgrade the existing system to (at least) current demand. All true. And it's not as if this is the first time such a thing has happened. The proper name for it is: Dancing on the edge of the cliff. Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: northeast power outage
On Fri, Aug 15, 2003, Joel Hammer wrote: ... And, the environmentalists will fight attempts to increase power generation, except by building wind farms (aka environmentally destructive tax ripoffs), which, as I understand it, make the grid more unstable, not less. Not to mention whacking birds at a good rate :-). So, as we decline as a great power and evolve into a third world country (California is just the beginning, and things will pick up speed), occasional power outages will be a minor inconvenience. Given government schools that don't educate, but indoctrinate nice tame drones, this is to be expected. I'm rereading a very interesting book that discusses the evolution of societies as they go from decentralized agrarian and militaristic to centralized societies controlled by the financial interests which shows this same thing has been happening since the early days of Rome and Greece. Law of Civilization and Decay By: Brookes Adams (grandson of John Quincy Adams and great grandson of John Adams). Anybody in the high-tech fields should see the parallels where companies start up with very competent technical folks, grow, then are taken over by the Vulture Capitalists who then run the companies into the ground. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Breathe fire, slay dragons, and take chances. Failure is temporary, regret is eternal. ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: northeast power outage
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:24:36 -0500 ronnie gauthier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Detriot did it! On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:25:33 -0500 - Jack Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote the following Re: northeast power outage Tom Marinis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beside, nothing more will happen today, since the NORTHEAST power outage occured around 2:00pm PST, 5:00pm EST. No, the truth is out. Hillary has spoken: GWB is at fault, as always. -- Collins Richey - Denver Area if you fill your heart with regrets of yesterday and the worries of tomorrow, you have no today to be thankful for. ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
northeast power outage
Tom Marinis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beside, nothing more will happen today, since the NORTHEAST power outage occured around 2:00pm PST, 5:00pm EST. [ Probably a power generator being controlled by POWER MANAGER, and that computer suffered a MS windows BSOD fault ] Well, could be, but... Ted Kopel interviewed FORMER fed cyber security czar Richard Clark. What a self serving piece of work this guy is, insinuating that this is the work of terrorist hackers, since the electrical system was designed to contain this type of outage to a small area. (Yeah under the load conditions of 20-30 years ago!) Sensationalism at its best. The truth is that everyone wants/loves/needs electricity, but no one wants to pay for it in terms of building the necessary infrastructure to support it (NIMBY). Large portions of the existing electrical grid are operating at or near the operating limits and stability margins they were designed for. The dynamics of the inter-connected power grids is very complex. In some areas it doesn't take much to cause an outage or disturbance, which depending on the magnitude, and where it occurs, can cascade to neighboring locations. Most of the grid can handle a voltage sag. The problem is when some segments of the grid trip off-line they cause phase shifts on the system, which are harder to deal with. Maybe this is the wake up call that we need to upgrade the existing system to (at least) current demand. -jhb- ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
